JOHN BUTLER

@TrueTomHarley what i'm saying is people are frightened to express their own opinion about anything. A brother made a small suggestion as to something that would help in the ministry and basically he was told to just 'do what he was told by the Elders'. And yes they gave me the choice of staying in the Org and just sitting back and doing nothing, but once I'd told them i was definitely leaving I could tell they would rather have disfellowshipped me. As if i didn't have the right to just leave. And that wonderful idea of not saying if a person left of their own accord of if they were disfellowshipped. It is obviously done for one purpose only. and that is so that people will shun the person that had the nerve to leave. Even if, like me, a person left for a righteous reason. We would get invited to people's homes and have people come here. We went to parties organised by brothers. I'm more of a one on one person and not keen on big crowds but it was ok a few times to be socialble. And one particular sad case is, A brother whose wife died a couple of years ago, and it seems I was the only one that would visit him and help him do jobs around his house and garden. He is in his 80's and has heart problems and other health problems. We would sit like a couple of old men and talk about lots of things from the past. He was keen on motorbikes and I'm keen on motors cooters. We would go to auctions and other places and look at old 'things'. We did ministry together, very slowly on the hills in the countryside. He would get his own maps that had to be completed within three months. We had great times and it was good for both of us. BUT now he won't even speak to me. It's a shame because he might not be getting any help from anyone now. But of course he's too frightened to be seen with me or to allow me to visit him. I know this as I'd emailed him since leaving the Org. I got a very simple reply.... Another one. A brother was supposed to be doing a job on my 4x4 vehicle. We had agreed a price and he had agreed to do it. But no. No sign of him, no contact at all. Now if he'd agreed to do the job, should he have followed through on it ? Because it was quite important to me as it was fixing the 4 wheel drive front hubs. so basically i didn't have a 4x4 to use in all the snow, which meant i couldn't help family members nearby. I've just had it fixed in my local garage now so it's all good, but the reason i hadn't got the garage to do it earlier was because I took that brother at his word that he would do the job. I've certainly learnt that they are not friends in the Org just brothers and sisters. Shame really, shows there is no true love.

@Space Merchant We will just have to agree to differ on things. Spiritual warfare may have been used by the Jews and the early Christians, but they used it to 'help' God's plans progress. It was inline with God's thinking and therefore approved by God Himself. That is totally different to the JW Governing Body and Elders using this so called spiritual warfare to hide Pedophiles / Child Abusers within the JW Organisation. And using scriptures to form an excuse for disfellowshipping and for shunning is not in line with God's purposes.... To withhold information for a wrongful purpose is as bad as deliberately telling lies. Yes i know the disciples disobeyed the law and went on preaching, so what, that has no relevance here. Yes it was wonderful that they did carry on the preaching work and sad how much they suffered for it, but it was for God's purpose. The Governing Body have deliberately made rules to use people and to frighten people. Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders. Scared of being disfellowshipped for even saying a wrong word. Scared of being shunned, completely isolated from the whole Organisation. That's why i was so careful not to say anything that they would consider wrong, before I left the Org. They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did. But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God. But you will never understand it seems. Because you always include others, the JWs and other hardcore Christians This is purely about the JW Org and it's Governing Body. I have no interest in any other religion or their ways. Anyway i have things to do, so cannot continue on here. We must just continue to have different opinions.

@AllenSmith Puff, hot air. May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be Pharisees ......

@AllenSmith Um, hadn't the GB already set up a Legal dept for each of the two 'bodies', the W/T and the JW Org ? And hadn't the one legal dept sent letters to the other legal dept, and then the other legal dept sent letters back, just to waste time and try to slow down the court proceedings. Isn't that why the judge got fed up with the stupidity of the Governing Body and the twisted way the GB handle their two legal departments, pretending that they were fighting against each other, when the GB could have just given the orders to either of them. And haven't the said letters been already posted online for the world to see. For goodness sake wake up and smell to coffee, no even better, wake up and smell the rats in the JW Org. And one of my points which is being continually overlooked, deliberately, is, Matthew 1 v 9 through 12,,,, plus Jesus quote of Hosea 6 v6 when he said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. The Governing Body could quite easily say, we will give you all the information we have on the Child Abuse accusations. That way they would be showing love to Jehovah and to the victims and to the cause of preventing any further victims. They could do all that willingly, but no. Are they being paid so much to keep it all secret ? Or, Are they so frightened of the results from doing it ? Because whatever they are doing, they are not doing it to serve Jehovah God. I'm not interested in legal obligations. The apostles were told not to preach, but they said 'We must serve God as ruler not men' So cannot the Governing Body for once actually serve Jehovah God, instead of being cowards and hiding behind their legal departments. It is not about what is right in worldly law, it's not about what people think of the '90% better claim, it's about what is right in the eyes of God. Oh how Jehovah must almost cry over all of you. It wonderful that He has the patience.

@Space Merchant I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ? Answer this truthfully. Because i could judge myself by the 'worlds' standards and I would be 90% better than many people in the world, BUT, I know I am a sinner and I'm nowhere near as good as I should be. I find it stupid to compare Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation (which I still see as God's chosen people) against the rest of the world, because i know the rest of the word is wickedly corrupt and it is controlled by the devil. My concerns are :- The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org. The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org. Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money. The emotional damage done to victims and others that have been and are being shunned by their families and those they saw as friends. The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one. But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once. My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

@TrueTomHarley There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive." It only cuts it by 90% of the Australian population. The Australian population are 'part of the world' so it is expected that they are as bad as the rest of the world. So, why would you compare something that is supposed to be pure with something that is known to be rotten ? It's a bit like comparing the speed of a bicycle to the speed of a racing car. Sorry Tom I'm not impressed and I don't honestly think Jehovah is impressed either. It's back to what i've said before. The Nation of Israel offered their children in the fire to false gods, but they wouldn't have offered as many children up as the surrounding nations did. But what did Jehovah think of the Israelites actions of burning their children in the fire as offerings to false gods? do you think Jehovah was pleased with them ? Do you think Jehovah is pleased with the Governing Body and the JW Org as a whole for allowing Child Abuse to happen within His chosen organisation ? As for your sly accusation, I won't even bother to answer it. You know my true concerns, I've told you often enough. Go away Judas, back to your book writing, and counting the money you'll make.

@TrueTomHarley Something else I've been looking into slightly, but not yet deeply is this :- The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. Jesus said at Matthew 12 v 9 -12, After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and look! there was a man with a withered hand! So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.11 He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.” Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ?

@TrueTomHarley ARC, Australia. One country. What about UK, Canada, USA, and Netherlands ? and even more worrying what about all the other countries which are not doing investigations because Child Abuse is just part of 'normal' life to them. Bottom line - Jehovah's Witness children 10 times less likely to be sexually molested than the rest of the Australian population. Wow, how unimpressive. Hany on in there Tom. Keep worshipping your Governing Body. Keep writing your book. Keep putting your head in the sand.  It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. Your words not mine. So how do you make the comparison ? You simply cannot compare if there are no other records. And please stop harping on about the ARC. that was old news and there are plenty more investigations going on now.Â

@TrueTomHarley you seem to have contradicted yourself. If no one kept records then how could the JW Org's records be ten times better. That becomes ten times better than nothing. Ten times better than no records at all. Quote 'the Lutherans would have us believe there has never been a case of abuse among them? Drag their butts before the authorities and grill them!'...... Well the JW Org wanted to pretend there was no Child Abuse within the Org obviously, because they told every member not to report it to the police or any outside authority. the Elders were not allowed to mention if there was a pedophile within it's congregation. If congregation members hadn't started to report it then no one would have known would they. The Watchtower mags may have talked about abuse, but it didn't tell people that the abuse was inside the Org did it ? As for the Witness figures being lies, well the investigations in many countries are only just beginning so we have no idea yet what the figures are. This could take another five years to show true figures. Quote, 'This is completely irrelevent. The figures reported and investigated are those of allegations, without regard for whether there were witnesses or not.' Are but only if those 'allegations' were taken seriously. Otherwise the conversations could have been conveniently forgotten. Do you forget that i was threatened with being disfellowshipped on the grounds of slander ? I know personally what an investigation is like. It's a one sided, decision made, farce. Elders sticking together like glue. Because as you keep on telling me, they are only MEN. They make mistakes, yes, but they also act deliberately against Jehovah's will and against scriptural advice. Tom, this has been proven to be true. Unless as I've said you call all victims liers. Anyway Romans 8 v 38 & 39 38. For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul's words are so true. Even the GB or JW org will not keep me from God's love. If Jehovah God sees goodness in me then he will upbuild me through Jesus Christ, either within or outside the JW Org.

@TrueTomHarley Tom it seems impossible to get through to you. Who cares what the 'greater world' thinks ? Jehovah does not care surely about the opinions of the greater word. And we get back to this point of the 'ten times better'. Let me give you an example. VW cars and now BMW also it seems, told lies about the amount of pollution their cars push out. BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org. The Governing Body / legal dept' / Organisation, would have given figures by the amount of Child Abuse cases it deemed to be 'real' and may have completely tossed out thousands of cases it deemed to be not worthy of actually making a case out of. IF, the Org was using the 'two witness rule' then maybe thousands of cases were tossed out, because as it's been made clear before there was never two witnesses to sex abuse. And add to this, the fear of many congregation members to come forward, because of shame or not wanting to be disfellowshipped, then the numbers could easily treble.... As you know, in politics, figures are deliberately altered, so why should the GB be so different. As I've said before they call it 'spiritual warfare' to tell lies. The problem is Earthwide and they seem to have hundreds, if not thousands of Victims willing to testify. Will you say all of there victims are lying ? Will you say they all just want to stop the preaching work ? Even if only half are telling the truth that is still much too many to have suffered this way... Will you silence all of them just so that the preaching work can continue ? If so, then you will invite more people into an organisation that allows pedophiles the right to roam free and to abuse more children. Russia. A totally different story. Nothing to do with Child Abuse as far as i know. And yes to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness is a good thing. Jesus said it would happen. However Child Abuse is not righteous, so it is not persecution of the same type. It is demanding that the situation be made open to protect others from a similar fate.

@TrueTomHarley So are you making excuses for Child Abuse in the org then? I've noticed that most of my questions do not get answered on here. People come back to the same old excuses of 'it's happening everywhere'. Your book paragraph reminds me of the Org's 'policy' on smoking. They knew it was wrong in the late 1800's but didn't make it policy until 1970. And Christmas, they knew it was wrong. but didn't stop it until 1926 ish. Great policies, only do it when it's convenient. Seems to be the same now with Child Abuse 'policies'.

@AllenSmith So you are saying that the court was fining the Org $4,000 per day for not giving something they did not have. So you then are saying the court were deliberately fining them $4,000 for nothing, just to get their money. Um, yet I thought it was common knowledge that the GB had been compiling Child Abuse accusation documents since 1997. True or false ? As for it affecting other religions, that's not important. Obeying Jehovah is what is important. Confessional privilege = dishonesty. To withhold information is going against Jehovah, but then back to what I've already said. The GB say it's ok for them to tell lies or withhold info' as they call it 'spiritual warfare'. You seem to be doing what the GB are doing, hiding behind laws which are not in line with Jehovah's instructions through Jesus Christ. So to be a good JW it seems you need to be a liar and be deceitful. But you proved that with your misuse of the Matthew scriptures. Do you see what is happening to what is supposed to be the TRUTH ? God is being so insulted here. The scriptures are being misused regularly. OH dear, Jesus' words, I want mercy not sacrifice. But the Org shows no mercy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/25/jehovahs-witnesses-accused-of-silencing-victims-of-child-abuse-uk So is all this lies ? Yes we know the media likes hype and yes it pays their wages, but that is not the point. Is all this lies ? That what matters. Because if even half of this is true, then i can understand why people would not trust the Org. It would give people the right to hate in fact. Hating something wicked is not a bad thing and pedophilia is wicked. When people are emotionally upset they tend to generalise and will include all Witnesses in their hate. More to the point, and I've said this many times before, I'm concerned for the Brothers and Sisters on the ministry, as it may be dangerous out there. They may expect persecution for preaching righteous things about God, but if they don't know about this 'problem' and I can assure you many of them do not know, then they will not be ready to face the situation. I honestly think all congregations should include something in it's Thursday evening meeting, just one talk to prepare people for the coming trouble.

@AllenSmith So why didn't the Governing Body obey the law of the land, and hand over the documents asked for in the USA ? It seems that the Org handed over similar documents in Australia and in the UK. So it seems there is a division in the Org's thinking and actions here. Surely handing over the documents would not have gone against Jehovah God's laws and principles. The next point being, and i don't know why we are dragging all this up again as we will not agree on it, but, are you saying that all those victims Earthwide are lying when they say they were told by the elders not to report it to the Police ? And when they say they were made to face the abusers ? And when they say they were disfellowshipped and shunned / abandoned if they continued to complain when nothing was done about it ? And your misuse of the two Matthew scriptures is sickening. People hating the Org because it is pure and clean would be wonderful wouldn't it ? BUT, people are now hating the Org for it's disgusting deeds. There is such a big difference, and the terrible misuse of scripture makes it worse. Quote ; 'Before 2008, The Courts generally cited with the Watchtower in many things, including child abuse'.... Is that a clever way of saying they did deals behind closed doors so that people outside didn't know how bad the situation was. I'd call that a cover up. And in your last paragraph you are playing that same old record. Please get it into your head, the JW Org is supposed to be NO PART OF THIS WORLD. It does not matter what any one else is doing. And those courts are there because Jehovah God wants them to be there at this time. AND Jehovah wants his people to obey those courts unless they go against God's laws and principles. But of course, I mustn't forget, the Governing Body and the Elders are allowed to tell lies, they call it spiritual warfare. But if a member of the congregation tells lies that is called Sin.

@AllenSmith Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation. I think that is complete rubbish. How in WW2 could Catholics and others of other so called christian faiths believe it was right to go to war against each other and to kill each other ? How could they believe it is right to get deeply involved with politics, when Jesus cleary said 'My kingdom is no part of this world ? How can they pretend that people, or people's souls go to heaven or hell when God's word clearly states that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' ? How can they teach a trinity when Jesus said 'My father is greater than I am' No, all the false christian faiths know they are false, but it's just big business, power and control..... Quote : That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles. Are now here we have a different story...... Firstly we need to be sure of whom he has 'entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity'. Secondly, we need to know who the anointed are. Thirdly, we need to know who has given authority to the Governing Body to say that only they, 8 men, out of hundreds anointed, are the special chosen ones to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave'. It's no good being one sided about it all. Yes we all know there has to be an Earthly organisation, but for you to just say that 'The anointed are an extension of the apostles', does not prove who the anointed are. So it's back to square one.

@Space Merchant Thank you for the link. I've bookmarked it and will look again when my brain is not so tired. It would be nice to have that MTT to study along with other Bibles.

@Nana Fofana thank you for the link. I read as far as page 10, then read the final page. The bits that i can understand make sense Â

@Space Merchant I think you totally misjudge me. When i said it was HWHY I simply meant that Hebrew writing was written from the right side toward the left, and would have been read from right to left, which is the opposite way to how we read and write. As for the tetragramaton yes of course i know of it. YHWH. What i was saying is the closest word surely is Yahweh. http://www.yhwh.com/jehovah.htm I found this link interesting. I'm a basic working class man, and my thinking is as a such. I don't think God or Jesus are looking for the highly educated ones, but they are looking for the 'pure of heart'. Hence my study of God's word has been for the message within it. That is one reason i accepted the name Jehovah as being ok. But for my part, my name is JOHN. I would not want to be called YOHAN or any other. And i agree with you on the name Jesus. If it was Yeshua then it should still be such. And if God's name was Yahweh, then it should still be such. With all your knowledge and high intelligence it has not helped me at all. I'm still no further forward on this. As you've said 'be it Yahweh or Jehovah..' I still do not know why the bible students chose Jehovah and not Yahweh. And of course I do not believe they were inspired to do so. I simply think it was convenient to use the name which was most popular.

My goodness this is all tooooo much for a Sunday morning. Surely it's simple enough :- Almighty God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Whether you wish to call Him Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah or some other name. Jesus Christ was formally The Word as a spirit person in heaven before he was transferred to Mary's womb as an 'embryo' / foetus to be born as a perfect human. The holy spirit is God's 'active force' / useable power, which he uses to get jobs done. And sin must therefore be passed on through men not women, otherwise Jesus would have inherited the sin from Mary. She was a virgin of course but would have inherited sin from her parents. Good morning all  Â

Fabulous. Nice to see some humour in the ranks.

@Space Merchant So make me wise oh informed one. How does one get Jehovah From YHWH ? which of course would have HWHY as it was written from right to left. Even Yehovah replaces the W with a V. I've often thought that the JW Org took the name Jehovah conveniently as it was already a known name. But if the name Jehovah came from false religion then I would have thought it would be wrong. I've always let it pass because I thought it was better to have a name of some sort rather than just God or Lord. And to be honest i think there are more important issues.

If you don't know me I'll just say i left the Org this January because of the Child Abuse 'problem' earthwide in the Org. However when i was one of JW's, one of our daughters after only being baptised a year, became involved with someone she should not have, and started a relationship. One of our other daughters told the Elders, which annoyed me, because she told the Elders rather than tell us first. As if she was looking to score points and look good.. She would say it was for the good of the congregation, but I think she just wanted attention. .. Anyway, the elders went to visit our daughter that was in the relationship and that daughter said she wanted to leave the Org. Whether she left the Org or was disfellowshipped i don't know, nor do i care. I said on the day that her 'leaving' was announced in the Hall, that i would not turn my back on her and that i would always be there if she needed me. Both myself and my wife are in regular contact with her and will continue to be, even if i should be reinstated.. She has ended the relationship she was in and is now without a 'partner' so is probably quite lonely. In my opinion God doesn't want people continually punished, so if i can be of help to her I will be. Balance, mercy and love. Jesus said "I want mercy not sacrifice".

My personal opinion is, that if a person will not use their real name on a forum then they are not quite as genuine as they could be. That's just my opinion of course. As for me i have nothing to hide and I certainly do not use any forum / page / FB or any other means to 'wind people up' deliberately. Yes sometimes i can be a bit unfair or rude, for which, when i calm down i will apologise. But i' m totally upfront and try to be as honest as possible. Concerning the JW Org and my personal experiences, there are things i would love to say here, but they are much too personal involving my direct family, so i have to hold back on many things... That does not help in some ways as i could use personal experience as perfect examples, but i will not sacrifice my family just for that reason. As for @tromboneck which appears to mean Trombone Neck, and gives the impression that this person loves to stick their neck out, or, be very loud in their opinion. I've only read their last two comments and if that is their general attitude well so be it, but it is not very upbuilding is it ? As for @TrueTomHarley he is kind enough to bear with me on many occasions and has been very helpful in this way. I think we have agreed to differ on many things but his opinion has been a great help to me. Thank you Tom. As for all this second person and third person stuff, all beyond me. The scriptures say let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No and anything beyond this is a sin. So that is one reason i do not hide behind sudonims. In my opinion (I'm using this IMO a lot lately) it is best to be truthful about who i am. Then others can have their own opinions of me, but at least they will know I'm not hiding behind a make believe character. Have a good day everyone. (I have a vintage pram /buggy/ baby carriage, to build, so i'll go my way and build it).

@TrueTomHarley Thanks Tom.

@TrueTomHarley Tom if you flagged me for that reason then thank you. I think you said something like the people are only causing this upheaval to stop or slow down the ministry. I presume you mean those that are not genuine victims of abuse and those that are not interested in seeing prevention of future victims. Well i can see your point, there are always trouble makers in all walks of life. SM seems to think it will not hinder people from studying with JW's, and as far as i can see it has not, here in the UK, caused any ministry to stop. For my part I cannot understand how few people even know about the situation. Whether true or false or whatever, people here just don't seem to know or are not interested. Though I've seen video of other countries where meetings are being disrupted. To be honest I've had my say, and yes did get a bit heated up, for which I apologize. As you know there are lots of things i would like to see happen, and things I would like to see change. So I will probably just stay away from the meetings and keep watching to see what happens.  Each time you flag me I get an email so I look to see what you've written and sometimes reply. I will try to respond less  . Quote "You must understand, John, that except for me, no Witness here is typical. That is not to say that any of them are bad, necessary, but they are not typical. The typical one will be more reserved as to participate in a slugfest such as this, knowing that Bethel recommends what Jesus recommended about opposers: "Let them be" at Matt 15" Um, I don't really understand your meaning of typical here. In my ex-congregation all people were totally different. Some i found I could get along with well and others i would rather just sit the other side of the hall thank you.... There were people that i would have considered to be my friends, but sadly no more. i can fully understand some people being upset at being totally shunned, especially if they left the Org of their own choice because of some bad thing happening to them... I see no scriptural evidence for such shunning in these cases, and I have been shunned since January.  However I think this would cause a difference of opinion between you and I so I'll leave it there. Now i will admit here that i was offered the choice of just becoming inactive, and that would have been far easier in the long run. But I saw it as just taking the convenient route and not feeling right to my conscience, hence i felt the need to leave. But i don't want Jehovah's purpose to be slowed down or stopped. Not that it would anyway. And I'm now feeling it will be good when all this problem is over and finished. I think it will take until the end of this year, and i think it will get worse before it gets sorted. But next year, well hopefully it will be a much happier time for God's people. The scriptures say something like, it's good to suffer if it's for serving God properly. There is a scripture which starts of something like 'Hold your head high when.. ' and it's about being 'happy' when suffering for the sake of serving God well. Hence i see persecution as a relatively good thing when it's for the right purpose. Enough again, I get to burbling a bit. Have a good day, John Â