JOHN BUTLER

Every Kingdom Hall is different. Every congregation is different. Having moved around a bit here in England I've noticed the differences. When i was living in Bristol for instance some Brothers would come into meetings wearing a tie of the football team they supported. Each wearing different ties, so funny . No part of the world, um. Â

Well it seems the Governing Body like to talk about 'tight pants' 'homosexuality' and 'masterbation with a pillow'. Um, a bit worrying i think.

Oh dear we get back to the same point i tell you every time. I'm only interested in what the JW Org and their Governing Body do and say. When the Governing Body put the word naked in that scripture they did not expect that every reader would do deep research to find out what naked means in Greek. Come on SM I think you are the one making mountains out of mole hills here. When the Governing Body say something they are saying it to 8 million baptised people and another 8 million Bible students. I don't think the GB expect them all to research each and every word they say and write. When the word naked in written in English in an English Bible, it means exactly that naked. If they wanted to get the idea over that Peter was 'lightly clad', 'in his underwear' they would have written that. Enough said.

Admin said : With a forum, you can create your own personality unique for that forum. You don't need to reveal your real name, or photo. My reply was : Um, so people can pretend to be someone else and tell lies and do all sorts of mischief You said : No one is pretending anything, Um, your user name is : Space Merchant, Biblical Storm Trooper. With a picture of a Storm Trooper  And you still say 'No one is pretending anything' ? Wow, so you are a real Storm Trooper, fantastic.Â

TTH seems to think i hate the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. I presume he reasons that because i find fault with them then i must hate them. So, a question. Did Jesus hate the Pharisees ? Jesus certainly found fault with them and showed them up for what they were. Any thoughts ?

I think we should get a few points straight. The Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem within JW Org is NOT A SMALL ONE. It is an Earthwide problem, not just 'a few' people. It has been going on within the JW Org for many years, 50 years in Australia it seems. For at least 20 years the GB have been collecting accusations of Child Abuse in the USA. Many many many of the victims have said they were told NOT TO REPORT IT TO THE POLICE OR OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES. Many of them have said they were not believed because of the TWO WITNESS RULE. Jesus said, 'If anyone stumbles the least of these little one it would have better it they has a millstone tied around their neck and they were thrown into the sea'. Do you believe these words of Jesus ? We know about Child Abuse / PEDOPHILIA in the JW Org in : Australia, Canada, America, the Netherlands and the UK. I have no info' of child abuse in other JW countries, but I would think it is happening everywhere. If ten people come forward to tell of their abuse then probably 100 more have not come forward. So we have no way of knowing how many have been abused. So this silly idea of giving a percentage means nothing. I am blaming the GB because they make the rules, not according to scripture but according to their own preference. If only half of the accusations are true it is still too many. As for comparing the JW Org and or GB to, 'professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report', that's like comparing God's organisation to Satan's world. There should be no comparison. It does not matter what those so called 'professionals' do or do not do. If you believe the GB are the 'faithful slave' then even you should expect the GB to serve Jehovah properly. Serving Jehovah properly would mean taking care of 'widows and orphans' 'little ones' everyone within the Christian Congregation. And that would mean keeping the Org clean and free of Pedophiles. In my opinion that means that EVERY ACCUSATION OF CHILD ABUSE IN EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE POLICE OR AUTHORITIES. And the GB should have handed over the 20 years worth of documents to the court whether it was 'the law or not'. But as i say, Collateral damage. Brothers, sisters, children. All destroyed just to keep the Org looking clean. You keep pretending I'm over emotional, if it serves your purpose, if it keeps your conscience clear. I'll keep distrusting the Governing Body as I know clearly in my mind they are not the 'faithful slave' they are the 'wicked slave that says the master is delaying in coming'.

Jesus said the Pharisees followed the 'Traditions of Men'. Surely you know and understand that much ? THE GB seem to have given themselves the title 'Faithful and discreet slave'. However there are many things that would prove otherwise. But that would be going off topic, which I constantly get told of about. You have quoted scripture to show that the GB are the boss. However there are scriptures which tell the 'leaders' ' not to lord it over the congregation'. I'm sure anyone can find a scripture to suit their own needs. One other point on the clothing of brothers and sisters. Assemblies and conventions are where the young ones / single ones go to find a marriage mate. Well they are not supposed to be looking 'in the world', so it has to be at the conventions. Not everyone wants someone from their own congregation. Hence the young and single want to look like young and single and who can blame them. Just because the GB are old frumps doesn't mean everyone has to be... And just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone has to dislike it. As I've said before, Jesus said 'Remove the rafter from your own eye before trying to remove the straw from your brother's eye'.

Are but who's choice of modesty ? Oh of course the GB's and the Elders. Maybe what Jehovah wants of every one is a bit of individuality. Are I've just noticed you say 'JW' standards, not God's standards.

I think the Jews had / have a thing called 'Pikuach Nefesh, which related to 'life being at risk' and 'breaking the rules'. And Jesus said "Which of you if your child or animal should fall into a well or pit on the Sabbath, would not pull them out ?" Basically saying the same as he once said "I want mercy not sacrifice" I don't think Jehovah meant us not to have blood when life is at risk. Once again, this proves to me that the GB are not 'the faithful and discreet slave'. OR, did God lie to them about the blood issue ? And then later tell them the truth about it ? Come on folks think about it. Does God use these people and if so would God not make it perfectly clear what HE wants from them and us ?Â

That is fantastic and so so true.

When i started studying, all those years ago, I was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. And that God's 'rest day' would also be 7,000 years. The teaching being that humans would live for 6,000 years then Armageddon would come. Then the 1,000 year reign of Christ, then he would hand back everything to Jehovah. I think the end of the 6,000 years was 1975. but of course, no Armageddon. It seems now the teaching is that they have no idea how long a Creative Day was. It would seem logical then that they have no idea when Armageddon will come. But they have to keep frightening people to keep them in the JW Org. ( So did God tell the 'Faithful Slave' lies then ? Or were they just telling the congregants lies ?) Even though I've left the Org i still believe Judgement Day will happen, as it's part of God's word.. The world is in so much mess and governments want to keep it that way. War is big business and keeps people in employment and under control. Immorality has sunken so much lower and in greater quantity. Over population, racism, hunger, floods, earthquakes, and so much more. And scientists crying about the end of this earth's life because of pollution, climate change, etc. Only God can bring things back to perfection. But no one has any idea when.

Are JW's against jeans ? Presume you mean the jeans that people wear on their lower half. Even when i was a JW I wore jeans and jean jackets. This is new to me.

Because as it seems the JW's don't think for themselves.

Sounds like an excuse for the Child Abuse / Pedophilia situation in the JW Org. 'Oh the GB might make mistakes but God is still using them'. Oh no, I don't think so.

I agree with modesty but not with the 'traditions of men'. The suit and tie is from the world isn't it ? So when it suits the GB to follow the world then it's ok is it ? If people cannot see beyond clothing then they have poor judgement.

Yes one thing that I've always considered wrong (but who am i to judge) is that all men are supposed to dress in 'Western style fashion'. No not Wild west fashion. And at assemblies in Twickenham UK, on the last day of the assembly,  some overseas bros and sis are 'allowed' to walk around the 'arena' in their 'native costumes'. Why shouldn't people be allowed to wear the clothes they would normally wear in their own countries, as long as it's decent of course, all the time.Â

But is this God's rules or MAN'S ?

I really had to laugh at today's Watchtower study. Such hypocrisy. I wonder if the congregations in Montana studied this today. Let's start from the beginning. We Belong To Jehovah. Sounds simple doesn't it ? But on baptism a person suddenly belongs to the JW Org, or so they think. I say this because a baptised person has to live by the GB's rules. Para 4, heading. We dedicate our lives to Jehovah. Don't forget that, because the Org thinks you dedicate your lives to them. The GB and it's Org think they have ownership of contact with God. Para 10 .... "These examples clearly establish that those who truly belong to Jehovah must firmly take their stand for righteousness and against wickedness". Well I did, I left the Org for a proper reason, taking a stand for righteousness. Oh but that's not what they mean is it ? They mean their view of righteousness not God's view. Para 14, "... Because we belong to Jehovah we are admonished to 'reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things'. Um, something wrong here. The Org hasn't quite followed this. Practice what you preach comes to mind. Para 15. "Our appreciation for Jehovah's special friendship is shown in how we treat fellow worshippers. They too belong to Jehovah. If we never lose sight of that fact, we will always treat our brothers and sisters with kindness and love". Yes, but oh dear, a lot of JW's including the GB have lost sight of that fact. Para 18. ... We take a firm stand against badness. And we love and respect our fellow worshippers, recognizing that they too belong to Jehovah". Really ? When ? It also says in the same paragraph "We want people to see that we are 'blameless and innocent .... ' ". Not much hope of that now is there ? Come on folks, surely you can see the hypocrisy in it all ? I'll hint at someone's comment on another topic, where he referred to Hitler. Hitler was one man. It took the whole of Germany to do what they did. Hitler couldn't have done it alone. So it is with the JW Org. The Governing Body may make those wicked rules, but it takes the whole association of brothers to make the wickedness flow through the whole Earthly organisation. Hope you enjoyed your Watchtower study today.

And from you viewpoint the victims of all the Child Abuse in the JW Org Earthwide are just 'Collateral damage'. And as most of the GB are American they seem to have that attitude too. Hide it, forget it, don't report it, call the victims liars, and keep on pretending the Org is clean. But as Luke 8 v 17 makes clear, it all is revealed in the end.

Um, didn't Jesus tell us to 'first remove the rafter from our own eye, before trying to remove the straw from our brother's eye' ? Didn't he tell us that if we judge others then we ourselves will be judged ? Can you not think to yourself this way, 'Well I'm not keen on his clothes but he is here in Jehovah's place of worship and in time he will mature'.Â

Yes, well it does belong to the world. As for trolls, I have been called such. Unfortunately some people use the term when they don't like what a person says. But, it was on Facebook, that I first heard about the child abuse within the JW Org. Well I wasn't going to hear about it in the congregation was I ? But of course i dismissed it for a long time as being 'trolls', 'haters' etc. However when they started posting links that seemed to have some 'cred' then I started looking into in with an open mind. I actually like Facebook. It's great fun if used properly. 'Pages' about classic cars for instance, one of my hobbies and loves. And lets not pretend that any JW doesn't have some outside interest.

I'll give you an instance. My brother 'invited' me to his house to help him take a ceiling down which he was having replaced. It was a very old ceiling, the house being over 100 years old. The work was very dirty. We took the ceiling down and left it of the room floor as there was lots of dust. So he suggested we went to McDonalds for some food to let the dust settle and clear our heads of the dust and grime. I agreed. However he changed his clothes to look smart before we went out. I said we would be continuing work when we returned so I would not change. Thereby came the difference of opinion. He said we should look smart at all time and I quoted God's word about Peter being naked and Jesus did not rebuke him. It is therefore my opinion that this 'being smart at all times' is teachings of men, not of God. I can see the reasoning of being smart for meetings and field ministry, but not whilst working. Oh yes, the plasterer arrived to put up the plaster board and do the finishing work. He is a brother. He was so scruffy in his work overalls covered in paint and plaster i just had to laugh.

Have you not read your bible. did not the Pharisees 'clean the outside of the bowl or cup and not the inside'. Have you no understanding of how Satan works ? Keeping the child Abuse quiet and within the '4 walls' of the Org give the false impression that the Org is 'clean and safe'. There is also the possibility that those at the top of the 'tree' may be deeply involved in such abuse. The GB itself, some of them, may be 'on file' as being involved in such things. Not a direct accusation but a possibility. If not then why are they sooooo keen to withhold the information from the courts ?

I almost cried when I read your comment here. In fact I am crying now. Thank you for your understanding of such things. Warmest Christian love, John

She did not say what you are saying at all. However although you have sneakily got that comment in (using anna as an excuse) I cannot see how you have come to that conclusion. The forest I'm looking at consists of, Australia, Canada, America, The Netherlands and the UK. Is that a big enough forest for you ? Maybe the tree you refer to is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, a rotten tree giving off rotten fruit. And the forest I'm looking at seems to prove my point.