JOHN BUTLER

Oh dear more whitewash. Does it clear your conscience Tom tom ? Wow they obeyed the law on the 'world'. You think they deserve a prize ? Um, the JW Org is supposed to be no part of the world, and yes even Jesus said to go the 'extra mile'. In cases of Child Abuse the law of the land should not even be a consideration. Doing right in God's eyes, not the Organisation's eyes, not in the world's eyes, DOING RIGHT IN GOD'S EYES, is what is needed. . But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea. So you've found a reporter that serves the Org well. Good for you. BUT it will never make the facts different. So where did your Ms Chuck get her information from, a JW I presume. The two witness rule is for internal use. yes everyone knows that, but it's that two witness rule that makes the BIG DIFFERENCE between the Elders believing a VICTIM or calling a VICTIM a LIAR. if the Elders by ONLY using the T W rule come to the conclusion that there is 'no case to answer', then the Victim is called a liar and is further victimized by congregants and Elders alike, with the fear of being disfellowshipped. This two witness rule is the threat used by the Elders to stop Victims making a complaint against an Elder or adult for Child Abuse. One more very important point, which neither you or I can prove or disprove, but has been mentioned by many of the Victims Earthwide is, that Victims have been told NOT TO REPORT CHILD ABUSE TO THE POLICE. It makes no difference looking at the what the JW rules' say now. We are talking about over the past twenty years at least. You've written a lot here which you probably think go in the favour of the JW Org and its GB. How wrong you are. You have just proved how much the JW Org is part of the world. How much it uses the laws of the world, instead of relying on God's laws, which should be written on the heart. . There are so many scriptures that show how wrong the GB and the Org are in so many ways regarding Child Abuse, but it would be of no use. You want to continue to be blind so that you can pretend your conscience is clear. So that you can continue to serve you GB through your Elders. Why not think about actually serving God through Christ ? As a sidetrack, I do not agree with massive 'payouts' to Victims, though i do agree they are due compensation. I also realise it is all big business for the lawyers / solicitors etc, which is just part of the world. But in my opinion it is God's way of cleaning out the Org. Are you going to write such long essays about every case Earthwide or it it that this one seems good to you ?

This forum is entitled JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB. Does that not mean it is about JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ? I don't 'live' on here so I don't know, but have 'some voices' not been allowed to be heard ? Admin is very kind to me I feel and have allowed me to express my feelings freely. And if I'm the 'one individual' you are talking about then just look at the heading of this topic. It's about me, though not of my making, but I'm not running away from it. Can we get something straight. Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation, governed by its Governing Body, say that they are the ONLY true Organisation that God is using to gather people together to be saved through Armageddon. The ONLY ARK like Org, the ONLY hope. The GB therefore have to pretend that the JW Org is clean and pure. Well I'm proving that the JW Org is not clean and pure and that the GB do not have direction from God. What you or anyone else say about any other religion is not important here on this JW Forum. JW's are not supposed to be compared with 'people of the world'. JW's are supposed to be as pure as they can be and serving God to the best of their ability. The only way JW's and the JW Org should be compared is to God's very high standards, NOT TO STANDARDS OF THE WORLD. You know, I will admit to not being the brightest light in the street but even i can understand what God is looking for.

".... they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship ". So the question to ask is, Where is this pure worship ? It certainly is not within the JW Org governed by the Governing Body. The GB have proved themselves false in so many ways.

Biblehub tells me nothing as I never even look at it, and basically I have no idea what it is. You seem to think you are the only one that knows anything and that you are always correct. If a man can see things with his own eyes does he need to do research ? This forum is enough and I have my own thoughts and don't need you to try to correct my every thought. Let's make this simple for you. The Governing Body are 8 men. Mostly American, mostly white. All the Elders of all the JW congregations serve the Governing Body to the extent of worshipping them. The Elders have proved this by acting like puppets, following orders without question. The JW Org say that a person cannot serve God without being part of that Org. Where does the JW Org get this information from ? It gets it from the Governing Body. Now I would think even you disagree with the Governing Body on that issue ? So, I would be happy if you stopped trying to 'correct' me every time I comment. Please realise we have totally different opinions on most issues. Thankyou.

Tom said :  "Judith, I think John is just plain loony in his single-minded obsession over one and only one thing. " Am i just loony for this one issue  ?  and the big baby just keeps saying hateful things about the Christian organization. ? Are you referring to me here Tom ? Since when has telling the truth been the same as 'saying hateful things' ? And the insult 'big baby' is so so Christian attitude isn't it ? Wake up and smell the coffee Tom, your JW Org is under deep scrutiny by God and by the people on this Earth. Remember God has very often used people of the world, to bring punishment on his own people.Â

Oh dear Judith, throwing your rattles out of the pram . As you should know i didn't start this topic. BUT I'm not going to run away from it. I should of course simply reply that i don't care what you think of feel. But hey that is not my nature. If you do not understand me fine, go and talk to other people that you find more agreeable. To let this forum get you so uptight is such a shame. As for attention, I wish to draw attention, in a positive way, to the Victims of Child Abuse and to the cause of that abuse in the JW Org. I wish to show up the GB for what they really are, the wicked slave class. And as for getting any work done. My wife and i have been at a semi derelict mansion house (which i have the keys for) most of the day dealing with an auctioneer that is to take the contents to auction for us. So I get plenty of work done. Another auction to lay out and lot up on Friday, Autojumble this time. Life is hectic Judith. This forum takes very little of my time.

I remember a song by a group name Plan B. It was entitled "Too late to Apologize" Quite fitting i think.Â

All is ok. Debate is good. Thankyou. The responses I get help me to evaluate myself and others. If however you think the topic has run its course and is getting stale, then close it if you wish.

Wow Tom I get a 'bashing' and almost a' praising' from you. Thanks for being my judge and jury, I presume God gave you that job did he ? Lets see now. You say I'm plain loony. Then you say i have some lying new friends. Anything else about me that i don't know ? You did note however that i have reason for my strong feelings in one regard. And you also noted that i did not start this topic. Thankyou. "... in his single-minded obsession over one and only one thing". Are,here is where you are wrong. BUT we are not supposed to mix issues on a topic. And it would mean starting so many topics for each subject, I honestly don't have the time.

You are entitled to your opinion and thank you for adding it. I suppose all the Victims of Child Abuse in the JW Org are cry babies to you also. If all JW's 'tried to live according to the bible' then there would not be over twenty years worth of CHILD ABUSE within the Org. I see you are using the devil's tactics, working on emotions.

Oh dear here you go comparing your Governing Body with Jesus Christ. So you think your GB can resurrect people from the dead do you ? Martha knew exactly who Jesus was. That scripture proves that fact. Your GB say that they are important, exalting themselves, and we know what Luke 14 v 11 says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? It does however show how far off line you are when you compare the GB to Jesus. Jesus proved many times that he had his Father's approval. I doubt the GB of JW Org having such, not the way that are acting. just another thought, I pray to God through Jesus Christ, do you pray through your GB ?

I think you deliberately misquote or miss the point of my comments. The point wasn't that Jesus 'was' offensive. The point was that the Pharisees didn't like the truth from Jesus, so the Pharisees found the truth from Jesus to be offensive. However Paul, keep on keeping on as you seem to enjoy it.

Mr Tom you are a comedian through and through. But of course you do it to undermine the points i make. Turn something serious into a joke and some people may just follow you and dismiss my comments as not important. Well I'm not affected by it as I am pleased with myself for making things known. What people do with true information is up to them.

Srecko, never say never. Do not shut any doors and do not burn any bridges. Just imagine if the JW Org did get cleaned up by God. Imagine that God removed the GB for misconduct. Imagine that God removed all the wicked Elders and replaced the GB and the bad Elders with honest hearted ones. You and i could return to the Org with a clear conscience. And with God's mercy and guidance of his holy spirit, we may even make it through Armageddon. Never give up hope Strecko. No one knows who will live or die.

Yes, this type of report will come up time and time again but the JW puppets will not believe it, ever. Of course the Elder puppets know it's all true but they keep it all secret as far as possible. People like Tom tom, and others that think the GB and the Org are wonderful. Let's get to the nitty gritty. THE GOVERNING BODY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE RULES. THEREFORE THE GOVERNING BODY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THIS ABUSE BECAUSE OF THE RULES THEY HAVE MADE. Unless that GB are removed and replaced then the JW org has no chance in being clean. What does the scripture say. That Wicked slave will be thrown out into the street and that is where the gnashing of his teeth will be. Well soon may it happen to them. Â

Someone once suggested that the Org uses brothers and sisters to build Kingdom halls for 'free' labour, then the Org sells the halls. I do know that Kingdom Halls are being sold here in the UK, and that more congregations are being 'pushed' in to less halls. This of course means that congregants have to travel further and for longer to get to every meeting. There are lots of older and infirm people in the Org now and it is difficult for them to travel, however the Org refuses to own and use minibuses to transport its own people. As for the above I do hope it's not true. The GB has enough problems already.

I loved her singing and have many of her records. I'm a Soul, Motown and Reggae fan. Well my teens were the 1960's. How worldly of me

Tom i know you are quite funny at times, but I think you seem to want to forget that I HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT. It's hype. They are conditioned to 'like the programme'. We were all expected to applaud. I know that you don't want to believe that teenagers are almost 'dragged' to assemblies, or bribed by having special clothes (that the teens want) bought for them. Hence the way some teens are dressed at assemblies, it's the only way they would agree to go there. That kids are ordered to answer up in Watchtower studies and made to pre-study for hours and write down long answers, which in truth they don't even understand. They just answer parrot fashion. And kids are made to do the field service, ordered by parents to do it. Kids are even told to get baptised by their parents, and it seems to be getting younger every year. Jesus was 30 years old. Hence many teenagers, when they leave school, leave home asap, to get away from the orders of their parents... Have you not noticed any of that ? But please do remember that I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SEEN IT ALL. It is not something I've read in a newspaper or seen on the 'web'.

Probably admin knows that not one Witness he sees here on these controversial threads is a typical Witness. What is a typical Witness ? You would never know it from here, but the best way to uncover how most Witnesses feel about their governing arrangement is to attend a Regional Convention. The line that invariably brings down the house with applause is: 'Would you like to send your greetings to the brothers in Bethel?' Yes it's all puppet fashion and tradition. It is so corny. It is the expected thing, so they have to do it. But they are your typical Witnesses. They live in a bubble. They spend all their time together, do everything together, and never really look at the outside world. They never ask questions. They just obey orders. They believe what today's Watchtower orders them to believe. They are frightened to question the Elders and definitely much to scared to question the Governing Body. Fear of being shunned drives them onward. It may not be seen from the outside, but it's there.

I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. An example here. This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry. What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. The Russians must have found the Witnesses offensive, they banned them and stole all of their property I believe. So it is, life goes on.

My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to...” Sounds like the GB of JW Org Tom. They have definitely proven false in their actions and words.

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point. You wrote : Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones. They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER. Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4 The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment. Yes Spiritual Israel are the anointed ones, I agree. BUT you have no proof that 'They are assembled in the Watchtower' I am presuming you mean the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Run by the GB of the JW Org. The GB have proved themselves to be the wicked slave class not the faithful one. Does it really matter why this individual left? YES. I need people to know that I have left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem earthwide. And i need people to know that I still love God and Jesus Christ. And I am still looking for a way to serve God properly. If people realise that I am not critical for the sake of being critical then they might just take me seriously and my comments then could help others. I have hope for the JW Org, but my hope would involve the removal of the GB and it seems that could only be arranged 'from above'. God will do whatever He pleases, for whatever reason He sees fit. He will work through His son Jesus Christ. If i am to be condemned at Armageddon then so be it, but until that time arrives i will continue to search for a true way to serve God properly.

Very well written, Fabulous comment. Thank you.

apostate əˈpɒsteɪt/ noun 1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith" synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More adjective 1. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle. "an apostate Roman Catholic"

Be cautious and evaluate, yes of course. But not be blind or pretend not to see the truth about the JW Org. Unless you too are saying all the Child Abuse Victims are telling lies. Are you ? I agree with the Proverbs scripture, but the naive ones are the JW congregants that believe every word of the GB.