JOHN BUTLER

No God would not choose me for many reasons. I'm not of the anointed class, I'm not spiritual enough and do not have enough self control. I'm not reliable enough and not well balanced mentally. 69 years old and suffered in many ways, it has all taken its toll on me. Of course if God wanted to use me in some way then He can do anything and give 'strength' to anyone. But it is very unlikely He would want to use me. But, we have to ask, if God is using the GB then why have they got so many things wrong and from the beginning of the 'movement', the Bible students got so much wrong too. So many things were not done God's way I would imagine. The mishandling of the Child Abuse situation is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not barred, i am a 'member' with my own password. But you put up paragraphs from WT, with no reference. I was wondering if it was modern Watchtower or from fifty years ago. But no matter. if you cannot back it up, I'll just forget it. We will still not see eye to eye on the Peter's nakedness issue. But once again so be it. As for free will it has limitations. A bit like saying Adam was perfect but he couldn't jump of a mountain and fly. We have free will to serve God or not. But either way there will be a reaction to our actions. The spy thing was sarcasm as I'm sure you realised. What i meant was you have to get your information from somewhere or some one. So you have to 'trust ' them to be telling the truth. People 'study' Theology as if it is just another subject, like mechanics. They look at it from a human standpoint. If you look at God's word from a practical human standpoint it does not look true or possible. The 'miracles' from start to finish in God's word look totally impossible. It has to be seen from a spiritual viewpoint, which most people cannot do. Hence the difference between the physical man and the spiritual man. And by the way it was you in your comment that said you offend people. I said you don't offend me, you amuse me.

Semi new indeed. The answer is simple. Sometimes I'm very busy and not near a computer for weeks, but other times I have time and energy to spend online. Sometimes, after working hard for someone all day, I just don't have the mental energy to even turn my computer on. Tomorrow will be one of those day. Laying out and lotting up an auction of automobilia, heavy, dirty, and tiring. 7am until 7pm probably. So you may not hear from me. Â

Oh wouldn't it be nice if the GB could interpret scripture by being guided by God's Holy Spirit. They could stop guessing then and stop getting it all wrong as they do.

TTH you are burbling, have you been on the bottle ? To the extent that i succeed in my goal ? What goal ? All i would like is for the JW Org to be cleaned up so that if Jehovah wants to use it fully then He is able to. I have said previously that i don't agree with massive 'pay outs' but that victims should receive some compensation. Here in UK 'treatment' ( for things like depression / attempted suicide etc ) can be free, but in USA and other countries it may be expensive. Hence some compensation for having suffered at the hands of a pedophile is not too much to ask. And the bit about 'they only help fellow witnesses' is completely lost on me. I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as I know I've never mentioned this point. I hope you feel better soon Tom.

I asked you to supply the details of the WT you quoted and you haven't, enough said. When you say other people don't back up their words I will remember this. Knowledge you have indeed, but you lack Spiritual Wisdom SM. You go to independent sources do you. Ah of course you have your own personal spies inside the JW Org, well done. You don't offend me SM, i find you entertaining, like a clown. You help me to laugh and relax. Have a great day.

I would imagine the JW Org have a lot less money than they did ten years ago. In the UK at least people are generally poorer and i don't think many act like 'the widow' Jesus spoke about. I would think most give out of their 'surplus wealth', not give their all. Even if some do act as that widow did, it wouldn't amount to much in pure cash terms. And with all the legal goings on Earthwide I would think the Org are fast losing money. However they are selling Kingdom Halls by the dozen it seems and even larger properties of course, so money is coming in. As to how rich money wise they are, probs only the GB really know Â

Jehovah has clearly and unambiguously prohibited the use of blood for sustaining human life. Many times, OT and NT. Can I question this point please ? Did Jesus ever forbid the use of blood to save a human life ? Can you show me a scripture where JESUS forbids the use of blood to save a human life ? Let us look at a few points here. I think it is true that the Jews / Nation of Israel practised something known as Pikuach Nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh This meant life was precious and should be saved even if it meant going against the Law. Add to this that Jesus gave an example which in my opinion goes much deeper than the actual words of the scripture. Matthew 12 v 9 through 12. 9 After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and look! there was a man with a withered* hand!k So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.l11 He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?m12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.” Surely here Jesus is saying that it is right to go against 'the Law' and /or the principles of it, to save a life. And please tell me, from where do those 'blood bits' come from that the GB say the congregants can use ? I honestly have no idea on that one. However if those 'blood bits' come from blood itself then isn't that actually using blood ? My wife hates cherries in cakes, so she picks them out, but she still eats the cake. If a person uses bits out of blood then in my opinion they are still using blood. Over to you guys.

Ok, thanks for feeling I'm being genuine. ( Now for anyone else reading this please note, I am answering a comment. I am not ranting on about Child Abuse again as some say i do. I am giving me viewpoint as an answer to Anna. Even though i know i will get accused of 'playing the same old record'. ) Now. You wrote. "The demand for those documents by Zalkin was a farce and was eventually overturned" So you are admitting 'those document 'exist. Are we talking here about twenty years worth of Child Abuse Accusations Documents concerning the USA ? Are we talking about Child Abuse accusations that were never reported to the Police ? In my honest opinion i don't think the American government or FBI give a damn. The JW Org is not a threat to them so they don't care. JW Org is in America still because America is probably the best country for 'freedom' of religion. Basically they can almost say and do what they want in the USA. (Compare to Russia for instance). But that is all besides the point. Jesus said 'if they ask for your outer garment give them you inner garment also' 'If you are conscripted to walk a mile, then walk two miles'. In other words always give more than you have to. IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WORLDLY LAW. It should be about serving God properly. Can you not understand that ? Well obviously the GB don't understand it... Your message was about one isolated case. I am talking about Earthwide. Here is a link which gives some info about what happened here in the UK. But you probably won't believe it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/jehovahs-witnesses-charity-drops-attempts-to-block-abuse-inquiry The JW Org here in the UK spent over two years trying to block the Charity Commission's investigation. WHY? And then it seems it never was a 'full' investigation. So what did the JW Org hold back, we will probably never know. Again your write :- Trust me, the GB are not too frightened to cooperate with police and official bodies. So why oh why don't they fully cooperate with all the investigations Earthwide ? I could write much more and probs' give you a hundred links, but it would serve no use. You think that your GB are wonderful men and serving God properly. I think the opposite. We must just agree to differ. And yes i am genuine.

Thank you Anna

Yes but the Apostle John wasn't talking pedophiles when he said 'they were not of our sort'. I am glad to be seen as 'not of the sort' that gave me reason to leave the JW Org.  However I'm a bit surprised that the whole situation hasn't been sorted out yet. But that is mainly because the GB are too frightened to cooperate with Police and official bodies Earthwide. I suppose it will drag on well into next year, so Armageddon must be a long way away yet then.  If the Org gets cleaned up properly and if it is of God's choosing then I would probably return. But it seems you are more concerned in shutting down this topic than i am. Especially after that sly comment. NOTHING APPLIES "ACROSS THE BOARD " when it come to reasons for people leaving the JW Org. Each person will have their own personal reason for leaving.Â

Yes i think he likes to look very intelligent and knowledgeable to everyone. However I'm not impressed.

I think the JW teaching was that to 'come to life after the 1000 year' meant that before the final testing people would not definitely have eternal life. So the 'coming to life' didn't mean literally becoming alive, it meant that at that time they would receive everlasting life. Those of the heavenly calling 'came to life' when they were resurrected as spirit persons. Or will when they are 'called'. It seems that they do not have another testing but receive everlasting spirit life upon resurrection.

Probably because you are looking for truth the same as i am

No one pays attention to what is going on in the world. I do, but it's difficult to get the truth about anything. MSN news, BBC news, Russia Today ? news, but who is telling the truth ? You have the Pope and the religion of Babylon seeking to united all religions into one fold. Yes, but I've lost the track on this one. Haven't heard anything about it for months.

The WT says the following, for this is but one of several: The need to be humble was repeatedly stressed by Jesus: Become like a little child; take a lowly seat at a banquet; when praying be like the lowly tax collector, not like the self-righteous Pharisee. Note also that a command to be humble served as the springboard for Jesus’ scathing denunciation of the proud and hypocritical religious leaders of his day. In striking contrast to their proud course was the humble course of Jesus, that of honoring God at all times: “I do nothing of my own initiative.” His very coming to earth as well as his entire earthly sojourn was a shining example of humility, as the apostle Paul so clearly shows at Philippians 2:5-8. Typical of Jesus’ humility was his willingness to wash the feet of his apostles.—Matt. 18:3, 4; Luke 14:7-11; 18:9-14; Matt. 23:12; John 8:28; 13:5. They also have more to say, So applying the expression to these two classes, it becomes understandable in all its different settings, and makes sense whether referring to situations in Israel in Jesus’ day among the Jews, or referring to the addition of Gentiles to the church class, or to conditions in Christendom in these last days. The exalted clergy class once thought to be first are abased to last, and humble ones abased to last God exalts to first position with him.—Luke 14:11. SM will you please give me exact publications these quotes came from. Thank you.

Yes i thought you didn't see it as a JW forum. So this is where we differ SM.

Probably the best time for the American and UK Armaments manufacturers and the greedy dishonest governments that gain from such, whilst pretending to be Christian. Probably the best time for drug growers and dealers on the black market. Probably the best time for homosexuals and lesbian / gay / transvestites etc as they have been 'liberated' and are now protected by law in many places. Probably ... oh I'll leave it there for now. I'm sure you get my drift.

So, to those that would criticize me for only talking about the JW Org, then it seems what i am doing is correct. As to whether you agree with my comments that is another matter. Thank you Admin for your comment especially this line. "This club is about JW’s and @The Librarian is the main moderator." So, with no disrespect to a certain 'space traveller' my only interest in the issues I raise are JW's, JW Org, the Governing Body of same, the Child abuse problem within that Org and some of its teachings. Those are the reasons I visit this forum. I do not wish to know what Muslims do, what Catholics do or what the rest of the world does. I do like it that Tom recognises that the JW Org 'bosses' are not happy with the congregants investigating / researching / enquiring for information or discussion outside of JW material. I would like to make something clear however. I do think the teaching programme / bible studies / door to door ministry are good ideas when done properly. So I am not wholeheartedly anti-JW Org as some may think. The problem begins when the GB / Org starts to misinterpret Bible teachings, and adding things to it. When it changes a meaning of a scripture three of more times over a few years, then it not only makes the GB and Org look silly, but it lessons the confidence that a person has in the GB being guided by God. And when it completely changes a viewpoint on something then one has to question any authority of the GB. It would not have helped Noah if he was half way through building the Ark, then God said to him, 'Hang on Noah, something is wrong here, dimensions need altering, take it all apart and start again'. .... This is what the GB do, and they call it 'new light'. Hankulan, from what i have seen here, there are people that defend the JW Org as well as people that find fault with it. And if you find that there are many others that criticize the JW Org, then ask yourself why are they doing so. Also, look deep into the allegations that i and others make, you may find that these allegations are true. Then you will have your reason as to why we make our comments.

This topic is aimed toward asking ADMIN these questions. I do not know who Admin are. Some folks here seem to have made friends with Admin where as I just use the forum. Why was Jehovah's Witnesses Private Club set up ? Should it be 999% about Jehovah's Witnesses and their Organisation, which would include the GB ? Am I therefore wrong when i only talk about Jehovah's Witnesses and have no interest in other religions ? There are those on here that regularly 'bite my ears off' because i only talk about the JW's, but I thought that was the intention of this forum. Admin please clarify these matters for me, please ......

Space Merchant. You are acting like a parrot. Have you ever been a Jehovah's Witness ? If not then you really have no idea of how it all works. What you have is how it's written down and maybe how it should work. But you are talking about ELDERS that only OBEY the GOVERNING BODY. The Elders are like robots, they do not think for themselves. Why do you think some elders are leaving the JW org and becoming whistle blowers ? It's because they are sick of obeying the rotten rules laid down by the GB. Some actually get a conscience about 'trying to make the Org look clean' at the expense of Victims. I was with the JW Org from age of around 18 until January this year. In different congregations here in England as i moved around the country a bit. So I have experience of different congregations, not just one. In Reading near London for instance they are very materialistic... In Bristol they were quite snobbish. Here in Devon they tried to make the country folk talk posher. That's just a few points. I know the JW Org as they are in Southern England UK. There is much more I could tell you, like the time an Elder threatened to have me disfellowshipped, but what's the point. You and people like you will only believe what you want to believe. CHILD ABUSE IS AN EARTHWIDE PROBLEM WITHIN THE JW ORG.

I'll have to look at that, it should make 'interesting' reading.

Ok if you want to take that attitude so be it. It says under your name 'Newbie'. Hence i was asking if you knew about such things. Part of your previous comment says "is now occupied by moderate conservatives that adhere to the constitution rather than try to interpret the constitution. There is no doubt that many of these cases in the eyes of liberals, merit a distinct punishment." THAT is political. True Christians should not be involved in politics. As Jesus said "they are no part of the world just as I am no part of the world" And I will say to you what i say to others. This forum is Jehovah's Witnesses Public Club. It is not the Catholic club or the Protestant club etc. It is about JW Org. Hence I talk about JW Org. Doesn't that make sense to anyone here ? And for a final thing, if you think I have bullied you, my oh my, you must have led a sheltered life.

You seem to be coming at this from a political angle. Being English I have no idea of American politics, in fact I've no idea of politics at all as I'm no part of this world. Do you know anything about the rules the Governing Body had given to the Elders of congregations concerning Child Abuse ? Do you know that those rules have been slightly changed in 2017 and probably again since ? The Governing Body have at least twenty years worth of Child Abuse accusation documents concerning America alone. Do you know anything about the Australian Royal Commision, The Charity Commision here in the UK, the court cases in Canada, the organisation in the Netherlands for victims of child abuse in the JW org ?

Judith, Judith, I cannot believe that you have written this. " Jehovah IS Cleaning Up " you say. But I've been saying that all along. His eyes are everywhere. Yes of course. So why oh why does the GB think they can get away with the things they do ? Why have Elders thought they could get away with Child Abuse, and why have other Elders covered up for the pedophiles ?