JOHN BUTLER

We will have to agree to differ but I did find your last scripture funny in as much as it finishes with “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” If only the GB would obey scripture .......

You do ok. Do not worry about those that have no fellow feeling. Some of us show love, some don't. I'm English and all I can speak and write is English, so you are doing better than me.

My point was of course that if the Governing Body promote as 'fact' that they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' therefore exalting themselves, and then give false information (bad food) concerning the will of God, then they are deliberately sinning... “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Matthew 24 v 45. But another point has just appeared to me. The above scripture is from Matthew. The below scripture is from Luke. Do you notice a difference ? And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Luke 12 v 42. The Matthew scripture is past tense, the Luke scripture is future tense. But my original point on this issue was that the GB make it known as 'fact' that they have this responsibility, and only those 8 men, no one else. But they prove themselves false because the 'food' they supply in not true food.

Was John not inspired at Ephesus when he wrote his other writings then, two years later  (1,2,3, John)  ? Â

17 “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.z 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. Different translation. This is the, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The JW Bible. But Jesus did fulfil the Law. It was 'accomplished' or it 'took place'. It was there to show the Jews how sinful they were, and to prepare the way for Christ. It was never there to judge anyone other than the Nation of Israel. If a person lives under Law they do not live by Faith in God's mercy, for the law was a curse. Galatians 3 v 10 & 13 10 All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.” 13 Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

You are funny but you do write such twaddle sometimes  However I still don't comprehend this Anna up/down thing .Â

So are you saying the GB are not inspired by God or Jesus Christ when they make predictions ? Again, are you saying that the GB are not inspired at all ? Are you in effect saying the GB are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? I did like the way you slipped in the bit about "...being falsely predicted.." Um, who actually did the false predicting ? Was it perchance the Governing Body of the JW Org and/or the Bible students before them ? And your bit about : "The whole point of the exercise for me is to live now as we will live once it has come... " Wouldn't it be lovely if the whole earthwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses did that.

I entirely agree with your last sentence and that is what I am hoping will happen very soon. Remember that the scripture says at Luke 12 v 45 & 46. :- But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’n and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk,o 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. I am hoping that the GB will be removed from the JW Org and replaced by honest hearted ones. But your illustration concerning Jesus and his disciples brings up other issues. In that case the people could easily see who Jesus was using to help him feed the crowd. It was clearly visible to the eyes. And the food was proven to be good food too. However, it is not so easy for anyone to see who is chosen to distribute the spiritual food at this time. And also to know if the food distributed actually is approved of by God or Jesus Christ. Add to this that those who give themselves the title of 'Faithful and discreet slave' actually judge others of the anointed. And that the food they give is often withdrawn by them later, because it is not good food at all. It is proved to be poison. 'The important thing for "the domestics" is that the food is distributed' Is it ? Or is it that the food is truthful and correct and that it does actually come from the Master and not men's own thinking.

Seems like this topic just dried up and didn't get an answer. Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that the sins of the fathers will fall upon the children ? I think we are a long way from Armageddon yet but there must still be millions that have not heard the Good News. It does seem to go against Jehovah's loving ways to kill innocent people, but in honesty who are we to judge ? I don't think Armageddon will be as horrific as the JW Org has made out in the past. After all, it's purpose is to remove the wicked not to torture people. People have often asked, 'What about the mentally ill who cannot understand God's message ?' Well it's God's plan of action to remove the wicked, not to remove or kill those who cannot understand. I think God will show great mercy to many. I'm sure many JW's have heard the old story about when they 'arrive' in the New world. Each will be saying 'How did so and so get through' and the one they are talking about will be saying likewise about the other one. Let us not judge each other, and let us not presume that we know God's plans completely. Jehovah, working through His son Jesus Christ, will make perfect judgement on us all.

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses." We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection. So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law. There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites / Jews could no do. We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

One case of many that have now been reported and proved true. But still the blind JW's don't believe any of it.

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ? Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here..

If we were all inspired of God and all had the same communication with God via Jesus Christ then why would we need a 'faithful and discreet slave' to 'feed us the right food at the proper time' ? We could all get fed directly from God via Christ. However the GB claim to be the only ones capable of feeding us in the proper way, as they say that they (those 8 men) are the only 'Faithful and discreet slave'. Quote : "However, we would would need to agree that the "chosen ones" would need to be living up to that choice". Do you mean that they would need to be deserving of such true communication ?

Exactly. So if the Governing Body of the JW Org are what they say they are (the faithful and discreet slave) then why do they give false information to the congregation ? Surely that is deliberate sin.

Those that study God's word deeply can get the sense of a lot of it. But, as you have quoted from Timothy, 'All scripture is inspired of God'. But not all humans are inspired of God to understand it fully. From the 'Bible Students' onward predictions based on scripture have proven false. The GB have written books that can now be shown to either be mistakes or lies. Would God really give false information to his 'chosen ones' ? And the Bible also says at Psalm 146 V 3 Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. So we go back to square one. Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time ? And how do we know who they are ?

Wouldn't take much space to say 'Because True Tom is a puppet of the Org and does not ask questions or think for himself'.

Explain in detail please and then explain how it is connected to this topic.

Yes, my point was that if the Governing Body have always been the 'faithful and discreet slave' why would God have given them the wrong information ? And, if the GB have been proven wrong on such issues, how can anyone trust them now and in the future ?

I have always wondered if the Bible is for 'all of us' to understand fully, or if it's only for a chosen few to fully understand. I don't mean is it just for one 'religion' to understand, I mean is it just for say 'an anointed group of people to understand'? Jesus spoke in illustrations to the people, but the disciples asked Jesus what the illustrations meant. Then Jesus would explain the illustration to them fully. Jesus told his disciples that 'to them the sacred secrets would be revealed' but that the crowd would not get the meaning of such things. It was also that after Jesus was resurrected he opened the eyes of his disciples / apostles so that they began to fully understand all things. For my part I would never expect to fully understand God's word the Bible. A lot of it is straight forward of course, and easy to comprehend. But I think a lot of it is 'in deep code' so to speak, only fully understood by those that Jehovah chooses.. It still seems strange to me, but it would be a separate topic, that God allows it to be so difficult for people to find any truth amongst the huge amount of lies in 'religion'. However, in my opinion, there has to be a 'group of humans' 'anointed people' that do have some direct contact with God, through Jesus Christ. We no longer have 'miracles' being done in Christ's name, so it is difficult to know exactly who the 'chosen ones' are. If there was a 'body of people' that could prove that they had God's approval and God's holy spirit, that would make life much easier. However when those that say they are chosen either make mistakes or tell lies about the meaning of scripture, and then their predictions fail, then they seem to prove themselves false or without God's guidance. So we go back to square one. Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time ? Is the Bible and it's prophecies being fully opened up to such ones ?

Well if somebody decides, in their wisdom, to make a topic about ME and why they THINK I left the Org. And then they or others say that I'm mentally unbalanced etc. Perhaps, just like the GB of JW Org, they bring things on themselves. All I was doing was commenting on a previous comment of Anna's which is here on this topic. But of course Anna and others are allowed to mention the Child Abuse freely, but me, oh no. Well, Jesus was hated for telling the truth about others, wasn't he ? And the scriptures tell us to pick up our 'cross / torture stake' and follow Jesus. It isn't supposed to be easy being honest and truthful. There is so much I could say to Anna but I'd only get 'shot' for it. Admin close this topic if you wish. Have a good day y'all. Â

ANNA says "WT has NEVER shielded or protected known perpetrators. The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have.." Did the GB and or it's Legal Departments (for W/t and for JW Org) refuse to hand over the documents in America. I believe they admitted having such documents which relate to twenty years worth of Child Abuse accusations. Is it then true that the Legal dept of one (either W/t or JW Org) wrote a letter to the other asking for the documents, and the other Legal dept wrote back saying they would not hand them over. When in fact the GB rule over both and could have given orders for the documents to be handed over directly. That is why the courts became annoyed because the GB were deliberately wasting time. If all the info had been passed to police at the time each event happened, instead of storing it all up in 'secret' for twenty years, then the situation would never have taken place, and the lives of some people would not have been ruined because they would not have become victims of abuse.... To use the excuse of whether the Pedophiles were KNOWN PERPETRATORS, is very poor. Because it was just so easy to say that the victims didn't have two witnesses.

Oh i didn't know Ezekiel mentioned 1919 in the writings ? I thought I'd just leave this here :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Tower_Society_unfulfilled_predictions And the GB say only they, that is those 8 men, are the 'Faithful and discreet slave ' They say that other anointed ones are not the 'faithful ... slave'. The GB even say that some, who say they are anointed, are mentally ill. Don't you understand that 'truth' has not advanced through these men ? Their predictions have not happened. It's not God's word that is wrong, it is these 8 men that do not have God's holy spirit to guide them. And before you say that the JW Org has grown so much, well so has Muslim related terrorism and other false religions.

You don't think that there has always been attractive clothing for people to wear then? You don't know that people used to make their own before mass production ? But you sound like a frump or an Elder anyway, so you probably don't understand. I said the young and singe wanted to look young and single, I didn't say obscene. So come on then roll out the scripture that says a Brother has to wear a suit and tie and the trousers must be baggy. . And the scripture that says a woman cannot wear properly made trousers designed for ladies. And then the scripture that says a women must wear a dress that comes down to her ankles and up to her neck. Oh a Burka maybe ? You seem to have all the answers, let's hear them with scriptures of course.

I would continue to converse with you about 'truth' but then I would probably be going off topic as this topic is about Forums vs Social Media.

You are very deep Space Merchant. Above my intelligence and my knowledge. However I like to think on this scripture where Jesus spoke to his heavenly Father :- In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. (Luke 10 v 21) I don't try to be clever or to annoy anyone. I'm just me, sometimes happy sometimes sad. As for truth, which Roman was it said to Jesus, "What is truth ?"