JOHN BUTLER

There is of course, a simpler explanation .... " WDS - The sword that cuts both ways."

No, of course God does not want us to misuse nor misunderstand scripture, and to understand scripture we need to ask God for help, which as you mention is the holy spirit. But holy spirit can only do so much. Since we are all free moral agents, but are imperfect at the same time, we CAN make mistakes in understanding where holy spirit is leading "us" (the person in question). Just because the holy spirit guides, doesn't mean that someone is capable of following it perfectly all the time.  Look how long it took Jonah to finally do what he was told. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) including the anointed. I think one of your problems John is you are waiting for someone to interpret the scriptures to you perfectly.  But the irony is, how would you know? How would you know what that one person is saying is better than what another person is saying? Jesus gave people identifying marks so we can recognize his true followers. It's not complicated. Matthew 7:21, John 13:35, John 17:16 etc... The Bible  lets us know clearly and unambiguously what is important to God. That's not complicated either. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 1 Corinthians 5:11, Ephesians 4:28, Colossians 3:8, Corinthians 7:1, 1 Timothy 5:8, Galatians 5:20, 21 etc....
Perhaps they are not going beyond what is written. How would you know?
Yes, in fact God and Jesus want us to be obedient; "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account"... (Heb 13: 17)
But complete obedience is first and foremost to God. It's a no brainier. The GB know that. Yes, God and Jesus support trustworthy older men. Paul told Timothy: "You, therefore, my child, keep on acquiring power in the undeserved kindness that is in Christ Jesus;  and the things you heard from me that were supported by many witnesses, these things entrust to faithful men, who, in turn, will be adequately qualified to teach others". (2 Tim 2:2). And as you know, not only do God and Jesus trust older men, but they trust all Christians who strive to obey God, since they entrust them with "shining as illuminators" and with preaching the good news
"“You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when located on a mountain. People light a lamp and set it, not under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it shines on all those in the house.  Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens" (Matt 5:14-16)
 

To be honest @JOHN BUTLER, I just couldn't be bothered to give you a detailed reply because your reasoning is so out of whack. But here goes:
As far as I am aware there is not much difference between an error and a mistake, they are just synonyms of each other. Once you put the adjective "deliberate"  in front of any of those words, then it changes the meaning to being  ummmm....deliberate, intentional, calculated, wilful etc. And no, I do not think their errors are deliberate. To which you will no doubt say I am brainwashed. It's good to have an opinion John, it doesn't mean someone is brainwashed, to the contrary.
Sure. But ultimately it is God. 
It's still up to God to grant that, not up to the GB. You could be part of the WT/JW etc. and still be disapproved by God. Just being a part of something is no guarantee.
The WT org. didn't foretell anything new, it just repeated what the Bible already foretold.
As for moral standards, you already forgot how high they are. You don't remember if someone is found to be unrepentantly flaunting God's moral standards they are out on their ear? 
Already covered above
Your opinion 
You are reading FAR too much into this! My inconsistency has nothing to do with the intention of twisting anything. Just laziness.
1975 was speculation. To be baptized as JW to be saved is a belief. Armageddon being close is also a belief.
Sorry, can't finish. Got to go. Will carry on later.
 

There was absolutely no intent at being clever or sly on my part. But you really show your paranoia though. Attributing intent where there was none.

I understand that John Butler has attracted the attention of British MI6, for violation of the National Secrets Act.
OOPS .... did I say that out loud?

@Anna. you comment is soooooooooooooo funny. 
First point. And this is funny.  Quote "who all err and make mistakes." 
So you are agreeing with me that to 'err' is not a mistake but a deliberate wrongdoing. Because you say, err AND make mistakes. 
 Surely complete trust/confidence only belongs to God.
I would include Jesus Christ as he has been given the power and authority, and he will be doing the judging.. 
The GB cannot ensure our salvation, 
No, but didn't the Watchtower used to say that a person had to be part of the JW / W/t org/soc to gain salvation ?
The Insight book says this in part regarding true and false prophets:  “The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass....
Well that knocks the Bible Students and JW Org / GB / W/t on the head then doesn't it.  
Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God’s mind on matters.
This didn't work with CSA in the JW Org did it ? MORAL STANDARDS. I don't think so. 
 If his message contradicted God’s revealed will and standards, he was false".
Well we have both of those in JW Org. The standards are low and predictions are false. The GB falsely call themselves the F&DS. 
Now this bit is almost clever, Quote Anna Starts with 'The true prophet', then she moves on to  'the prophet/spokesperson/GB' but finally she moves on to ' the prophet/GB/FDS. 
How sly is that. A perfect JW way to twist things. Start with a true prophet and end with the GB/F&DS. 
Personally, I find nothing wrong with speculation, as long as it is not presented as fact.
Yes the speculation about 1975 was wonderful wasn't it. And the speculation that one has to be a baptised JW to be 'saved'. And the speculation that Armageddon is 'so close now'..........
Since no one can interpret scripture without the possibility of making an error, 
That is because they are not inspired Anointed. Why would God give us His word if He would not give inspiration of holy spirit to Anointed ones to interpret it properly. Do you think God wants people to misuse scripture ?
Going beyond what is written.
Calling themselves the F&DS...............
 I think completely distrusting the GB is as unreasonable as completely trusting them.
BUT the GB say they are the F&DS and requite complete obedience. Didn't someone put up a Watchtower quote where the GB said that God and Jesus Christ trust them (the GB), so everyone else should trust them. 
Your whole comment reminds me of Mark Antony "I come to bury Caesar not to praise him". BUT your comment is very sly, almost clever, and sooo funny. 

Whazzamatter TTH?
Doctor would not refill your anti-anxiety meds?

This is not a reply to anyone specifically, just some musings in response to some of the comments here.
I suppose it's not too much of an unreasonable concept to have a measure of confidence in imperfect humans, who all err and make mistakes. Without confidence in others, it would be a crazy world, even crazier than it is now and absolutely nothing would get done. Even when we have been disappointed over and over, we still check what the weatherman has to say about tomorrow's weather. I think maybe the word "complete" confidence should be omitted though when referring to any human, including the GB. Surely complete trust/confidence only belongs to God. The GB cannot ensure our salvation, only God can. (Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation Ps 146:3) We cannot question God, and quite rightly so of course. But we should be able to question a human, a prophet, or an angel for that matter. The story about the “man of the true God” in 1 Kings ch.13 highlights the seriousness of questioning (making sure) very well.  In Israelite times people needed to distinguish between a true prophet and a false one. There were plenty of false ones, and they were exposed by Jehovah. Today, we need to question in order to determine who is false and who is not.  (The term prophet that I am referring to is a spokesperson for God, not someone who predicts).  The Insight book says this in part regarding true and false prophets:  “The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (De 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (De 13:1-4). The last requirement was probably the most vital and decisive, for an individual might hypocritically use God’s name, and by coincidence, his prediction might see fulfillment. But the true prophet was not solely or even primarily a prognosticator, as has been shown. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God’s mind on matters. (Isa 1:10-20; Mic 6:1-12) Hence, it was not necessary to wait perhaps for years or generations to determine whether the prophet was true or false by fulfillment of a prediction. If his message contradicted God’s revealed will and standards, he was false".

So, we come to the crux of the matter. We should be able to question the prophet/spokesperson/GB, to make sure  that what he says does not conflict with "Jehovah’s righteous standards and mind on matters" as was verified by Geoffrey Jackson in his "if we gave wrong direction, then everyone who has the Bible would see that it was the wrong direction"  statement.
So unquestioning obedience and "complete" trust, in my opinion, are not the right choice of words to use in connection with the GB.
 
And this is the primary reason for the topic, not to suspiciously distrust the GB, but to remind ourselves, by discussing the topic in depth, that there are boundaries and stipulations that have to be met before we can have confidence in, and/or obey any single expression made by the prophet/GB/FDS. And these boundaries and stipulations are set by Jehovah himself.
Personally, I find nothing wrong with speculation, as long as it is not presented as fact.

Going beyond what is written. This happens when an interpretation is applied to any seemingly ambiguous scripture. Where to find the balance? Since no one can interpret scripture without the possibility of making an error, how about only sticking to what is completely clear, (besides not conflicting with other scriptures), and admitting anything else is speculation.  That would be a good start. I have no qualms telling anyone who wants to know my opinion on the revised understanding of the “generation”,  that I believe it is speculative, and may or may not be true,  and that we will know the true answer probably not until after Armageddon......
In saying all this, I do not think that the reasons for distrusting the GB that have been posted here by some are valid enough reasons. I think completely distrusting the GB is as unreasonable as completely trusting them.
 

Do you have any new orders for me, o wise one, JWI?
Sheesh.

You know what i mean.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
I heard the wt baptizes people into the name of the "organisation"

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/rape-fornication.php
I am looking at these watchtower articles that state if a woman is being raped, if she doesn't scream or try to get away, she is committing fornication. So following that messed up logic, if a 5 year old child is being raped, and they don't scream for help, does that make that 5 year old a fornicator?

This is not the whole truth of the matter. Exactly as I said previously, Russell taught that the household of faith was being fed by the anointed from about 1879 until about 1897. I believe the first Watchtower article claiming that the FDS was a single person or individual (and not a class of individuals) was actually published in 1896, but the primary source is the book "Battle of Armageddon" (Studies in the Scriptures Series, published 1897). He was reticent to go out and publicly proclaim that "this single individual" was he himself, even though it was already obvious to most, but he still allowed his wife to openly publicize the idea that Russell as publisher of the Watchtower, was referring to himself.
As I said:
Your supposed evidence was a quote from an 1880 Watchtower which was obviously from within the period that included 1879 to 1897. This was during those two decades when Russell was not directly pushing the idea that HE himself held the office of the FDS.
As someone recently said: you need to get your decades straight!

I wish I could agree. Fortunately, I believe there is a recent move towards a proper, Biblical standard of leadership. Unfortunately, we have a lot of documented evidence that the Watchtower GB have indeed deviated from Biblical standards of leadership.
For example, recall that in 2013, Charles Taze Russell (CTR) was finally removed from inclusion in the membership of the faithful and discreet slave, but that Joseph F Rutherford (JFR) now holds the "pre-eminent" position as the first well-known person that Jesus supposedly appointed to be a member of the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1919. Of course, JFR never noticed that Jesus had just appointed him to this position, because he went on claiming in 1919 and nearly until 1930 that he was NOT even a part of that "faithful and discreet slave" for several years after 1919. JFR claimed that only CTR held that office, and continued to publish the claim that CTR, in fact, was still "spirit-directing" the WTS from beyond the veil. JFR claimed that CTR was not only the "pre-eminent" member of the FDS, but that he was the ONLY person who had held that office.
In the WT, CTR was still considered a pre-eminent member of the FDS in these last days until the WTS removed him from ever having been a member of the FDS, as of that update in 2013.
But here is where the leadership problem comes in. Rutherford was known for blatant self-promotion, promoting a title and name for himself, advertising, advertising, advertising, and marketing stunts like putting the deed of a property in the name of Abraham, David, and other faithful "men of old." This might be just fine on its own, but he published the "Bulletin" and the "Messenger" which more than once printed the idea that disobeying Rutherford was tantamount to disobeying the Lord himself.
The idea that the organization was "spirit-directed" took on exactly the same meaning as "inspired." As an aside, someone recently pointed out that the term has now been removed from the baptism questions, and I think this is one of the steps in the right direction, in terms of leadership that is less presumptuous. (In fact, it is very difficult to translate the term spirit-directed into many languages in a way that would distinguish it from the term "inspired." Also, legally, it is easier to push legal liability back on local elders in cases of CSA legal errors, if the WTS stops using the term "spirit-directed" organization.)
But this idea of being "spirit-directed" was part of the deep-rooted belief that the "governing body" had about themselves. Twice, in court, (two different cases) members of the so-called "governing body" testified that Jehovah was the editor of the Watchtower. In fact, this was a reason (around 1931) for taking off all names of the editorial committee in Watchotwer publications except for Rutherford himself. 
We have had statements, even fairly recently, that continued to echo that same idea that Russell made when he said that reading his books would bring someone into the light in a short period of time, while reading the Bible alone would allow the same person to go off into darkness in a short period of time.
But back to the self-promotion of a leadership standard that was far from the standard Jesus set, as seen in Matthew and elsewhere. Here is an example from 1943 that I shared previously:
Watchtower, July 1, 1943 page 205:
Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his
Son. (Heb. 1: 1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he
has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful
and wise servant", who is his visible mouthpiece, and says
to those who are privileged to represent him upon the
earth, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations" ...
These expressions of God's will by his King and through
his established agency constitute his law or rule of action
for the "faithful and wise servant" and for their goodwill
companions today... The Lord breaks down our
organization instructions further . . . . He says, 'Let us assign the field,
the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies
of Jehovah's witnesses. . . . He [the Lord]
says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175
hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop
into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular
pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as
can be properly developed during that time. And for
company publishers he says, 'Let us make a quota of 60
hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week
for each publisher.' These directions come to us from
the Lord through his established agency directing what
is required of us; . . . This expression of the Lord's will should be
the end of all controversy. It is for your good that these
requirements are made; for thereby you are enabled to
prove your integrity and magnify the Lord's name.
These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals
and as collective units called "companies". ...
They are to carry on all the forms of magazine work in
that assignment. ...
... The Lord through his "faithful and wise servant" now
states to us, "Let us cover our territory four times in six
months." That becomes our organization instructions and
has the same binding force on us that his statement to
the Logos had when he said, ''Let us make man in our
image." It is our duty to accept this additional instruction
and obey it. 
Since Jehovah was supposedly the Editor of this article, it made sense to the governing body that these words were to have the same binding force on us as any other command from Jehovah. The Watchtower's instructions to Witnesses were considered the equivalent of Jehovah's command to the Logos found in the words of the Bible in Genesis. This should make us think again when we see statements like:
"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)     Those are not the words and attitude of persons who are humble, meek, faithful, wise and discreet.

Your illustration would work if the changes through the years have been only greater refinement. The reality is that the organization has vacillated back-and-forth on its doctrines (organ transplants, the meaning of "superior authorities," and the understanding of fornication come to mind). This vacillation is a serious issue. Think of the people that died refusing organ transplants or the women that were falsely accused of "consenting" to rape due to their inability to yell out.

(Matthew 24:34) . . .Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.
(Matthew 24:1-3) . . .Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be. . .
(Mark 13:1-4) . . .As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you see these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”
(Luke 21:5-7) 5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”
 
 
 

Didn’t the apostle Paul have similar problems? Yet he said “So I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in times of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.” (2 Corinthians 2:12) Why? Because ….. “ the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us” (2 Corinthians 4:7)  The issue of child abuse is horrendous, but if we are to believe God, then even the consequences of that can be overcome with His help. We know that whatever happened to us, could have happened anywhere, and that all those who committed these horrendous crimes will eventually be punished.

I have not had that experience, I mean someone threatening to destroy my family if I do not believe their "fantasies". And yes, I understand what you are talking about. No need to explain

@Space Merchant  I cannot understand your logic, so please explain to me you thinking.
Are you saying that there are many different types of Christian churches / religions / groups, that are serving God properly ? 
Are you saying that a person does not need to belong to one type of Christian group ?
You seem to find some good things in many different religions. So do you think that God or Christ works through many different Christian groups / religions ? 
Do you also think that God or Christ will give spiritual guidance to a person that is not part of a religious group ?
Do you think that if a person prays to God for spiritual guidance to gain understanding from the Bible, that God through Christ will give that person a better understanding of His written word ? 
Or do you feel that a person must be part of a particular religious group ? 
It would be nice to know your thought on these things.
Thank you, John
 

@TrueTomHarley  you lose me half way through your comments. I'm getting old and it's hot here in Devon England 
Quote "I don’t entreat them to come back on the side of the angels." "Essentially, they have tasted and pronounced Jehovah bad."
Once again i don't know exactly who you are talking about, BUT these two quotes above make me think that YOU are ONCE AGAIN mixing up JW Org/GB/Wt, with Almighty God. 
It was YOU that said that a person does not have to be a baptised JW to be able to witness about Jehovah. 
So does a person have to use the name Jehovah to witness about Almighty God ? What if a person uses the name Yahweh ?  
Space Merchant for an example. I'm sure he would say he is a Christian. Does he have to use the name Jehovah to talk about God ?
If perchance you were including me in those above comments, then you judge me badly. But I suppose I put you and the KId in the same pot, so I don't expect anything different. 
Just a tag on : now i know it was Srecko that you were talking about, i can't remember what you said about  him  

@TrueTomHarley As for identifying of whom you speak, it does make life easier. To keep going back pages to reread comments to get the jist of it all becomes boring and time consuming. 
How do you know that ‘Judgement day’ is still a long way off yet?
There is not a clean identifiable Organisation here on this Earth for people to associate with.
Tom, I can sort of understand that you defend the Watchtower/GB/ JW Org, but at this point in time it is not 'clean', either truthfully inside, or in the eyes of outsiders.
It needs to be clean in the eyes of outsiders if it wishes to attract those outsiders.  I suppose you could argue that God would guide people in anyway, but would He guide people into an Org that is not (at present time) fit for purpose ? 
The JW Org does not stand out as being God's chosen Org, nor does the GB stand out as being God's chosen anointed to guide it. Many inside the JW Org are critical of the GB and its rules. Many outside the JW Org earthwide are aware of the problems within the Org. Things like the Blood Issue have now become ridiculous with all the 'little bits' that JW's can use. And things like the 'This Generation' situation have now become known outside the Org and are a bit of a laughing stock. Then you get those rather stupid videos about sexual matters, well it makes the Org look like a clown show to outsiders. 
Remember Luke 17 v 1&2. 'It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Never the less woe to the one through whom they come' 
The JW Org has now become a cause for stumbling. 
I agree with you about the Bible Students / Witnesses identifying many important points and standing up for those points. For instance, how wrong the trinity is,  and that we do not have a soul that 'floats' off to heaven, and other important issues. But those things have been long established now and now the GB are messing with people's heads. 
What is that scripture ?  'The Holy Spirit and we ourselves  favour adding no further burden to you .......... '
So where is that ONE organisation that God can use RIGHT NOW ?  Because the GB has taken the JW Org out of the running. 
Hence it would take time to rebuild the JW Org / Wt, or to create a new Org. But there is still time. The Earth is not yet on destruction time. Yes things are bad but probably a lot of hype too.  God himself knows exactly when to act, when to have people here on Earth ready. I do not think God will bring the judgement whilst there is no clear visible 'Jew' for people  to 'cling to'  
 

As far as the anointed, it’s true, it’s nobody’s business who is anointed or not.   This is BtK opinion.
For my part I would need to know that the leaders of God's servants here on earth were Anointed and inspired of God's Holy Spirit.  It makes sense to me that the leaders need to be both. I do not care in the least if everyone of you on here disagree with me. Who knows, that could make me even more right ...  
As 'Judgement day' is still a long way off yet, God has plenty of time to show the true Anointed and to prove they are inspired. 
He did it with early Christians. Why would He not do it now ?  And I'm still happy with my view of 'ten men clinging to the hem of a Jew'. God, through Christ, will guide willing ones to the true Jew, the true Anointed. But He will do it when He is ready, not before.  

Tom : Well, I think he already has picked, long before he came here, and from our point of view, it is not wise. 
You do make life complicated when you don't mention who you are talking about. 

Well done Billy, keep on worshiping the GB or maybe pretending to worship them, whatever your motive. 
Quote  : Those early church fathers wanted to have their followers under subjection and influence of their personal teachings.
 And that is exactly the same with the Society  / GB / JW Org.  A good example was the deliberate changing of the meaning of the scripture concerning, the Superior Authorities.  
Add to that, that congregants have always been told 'not to have their own opinions of scripture, but to rely on the W/t / GB / JW Org's opinion of it all.  Quite funny really. You can own a Bible, read a Bible, pray to God, BUT don't you dare have your own opinion of scripture, and even worse it would be suicidal to mention your opinion of scripture to others. 
Quote : That meant, their personal understanding of scripture was law. 
It still is. The GB's understanding has to be accepted by all JW's. 
Why Billy thinks he is being clever by comparing the GB to people on this forum I do not know. Do any of us on here actually want to be leaders ?  I don't that's for sure.  
And as for the GB being leaders, i would say they are more like Dictators. 

And this is how it was and probably still is possible to HIDE Pedophiles in the JW Org. 
Why ? Because it seems people like Anna and others in that Org think YOU MUST OBEY like robots. 
Hence the Elders HAVE obeyed like robots, and we have seen the terrible results. And don't try to tell me the Two Witness Rule wasn't used, because there is enough evidence Earthwide to prove it was. And the Elders, it seems, didn't even question their obedience to the GB, as opposed to the love and kindness they should have shown to victims. 
Why Oh Why do you people worship those 8 men ? They even say they are not inspired and that they err. 
And what is the point of actually having a Bible ? And what is the point of actually being able to pray in person to God and to ask for spiritual guidance ?  Only to be told by your GB and Elders, not to think for yourselves. 
Remember Life of Brian "You're all individuals"  And one guy says "I'm not".  Well it seems you lot are not individuals either.
What did J.T.R. Jr say, something about not being a 'monolinth' well some such word. James said all JW's are different and do things for different reasons. It doesn't seem so here. It seems that you all want to be robots. 
Quote from above comment  " *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life.... " 
Well that is not happening in the JW Org that is for sure.  And when I've mentioned judgingthe JW Org by God's standards I've been criticised for it. If the Society / GB had been meek and humble then the Org would not be in such a mess, and it wouldn't need to be making massive payouts either.  I'll just repeat that line from above comment :-
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life...
 

Problem with that is, that so many things have been changed in the last 40 years or so that basically if it was in the world it would be breaking the contract. Even words in the NWT have been changed. It's all been discussed on here Anna. Words changed, meanings changed,  rules changed, ah but they call it 'new light'.   'This Generation' anyone ?