Thinking

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Then why do you come here?  You yourself say - have discipline..... discipline the mind!  Walk the talk buddy!  I know I am a Witness - but if I am not good enough to your standards,  go read the watchtower we studied today!

Arauna ..I think Sis we need to let this person have the last say...or we become like him....don’t waste your precious spiritual energy...I’m not sure what is going on here but it’s not healthy...it’s time to back away for the sake..not of those participating...but for sake of those who may be reading this and dismayed at how low we all have become...me included ...

none of this thread is dignified...or mature...

Jesus didn’t even look at Herod as he was so disgusted with him...

you know the old saying...If there is no wood,...there is no fire...I admire your tenacity...

5 hours ago, xero said:

I had to handle a case where we were getting ready to recommend a brother as an MS and some trouble popped up from some other congregation who got wind of what we were going to do. Apparently 15 years previously when he was 15 he was at some poorly supervised pool party and something may or may not have happened w/another couple of JW's 15 yr old daughter. But guess what? The police were called, and investigation was made, the society was notified and turns out neither the police, not anyone else thought there was anything going on which warranted further concern - save for these poor examples of JW's. In any case this bro wasn't in their cong and hadn't been for over a decade, yet somehow he was responsible for how their daughter turned out. (WTF?).

BUT, you actually have galactically stupid elders who don't know the difference between what the KNOW to be true and don't KNOW to be true. So I'm sitting in this meeting and this pin-head elder blusters "These are serious charges!" (against the bro being recommended)...And I counter "You know Jose...You are absolutely right. But not for the reasons you imagine. This is serious because if this family doesn't put a sock in it, they could be guilty of slander! This has already been looked at. It's a more than decade old event, he was a minor at the time, the police investigated, the society investigated....this is case closed. But the family spreading slander against this brother IS serious."

He looked at me with his barnyard animal expression one of surprise mixed with stubbornness until several other elders jumped in and agreed.

This is the thing people don't get about elders and humans. People can mean well and get it all wrong. But I couldn't let this brother get hammered and slandered because of this other weirdo JW family whose family were almost all out of control. (All that was on them. Not the congregation)

I’ve heard this story before....I’m trying to figure out on which forum and from whom?????

Aaaah...librarian....I so love Phil Hayworth  talks..some have been taken down and it was such a great loss..I have listened to this a few times and now will listen again....he has another fantastic one called.....ARE YOU  TIED TO JEHOVAH ...or something like that....it’s brilliant....I came into the truth on these types of talks.....much appreciated !!!!!! 

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Well, your correct in one aspect while wrong in another. That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand. This can also be a cultural thing. Then, those kinds of witnesses distort the narrative even more when they agree with an ex-wetness erred perceptions.

Well I was loath to chime in on this subject I admit ...and it probably would have been wiser to not say a thing..and yes I broke  my own rule over this.

Because it declines into a emotional school yard cat fight... but you also do not fully understand either Billy....NONE..of us here do...not really.

But I know first hand of certain issues here in Australia..I watched all of the ARC..talked with victims and elders...know  of certain    cases...intimately ..so can speak from experience...

The way they were handled by elders and the Branch directions of the time..and how victims were handled...and the frustrations of elders and the victims.

I listen to witnesses who have got things a bit wrong...sometimes a lot wrong...and a lot right .

I listen to Ex JWs who have got some things right and some things wrong...

It is not as simple or straightforward forward as so many believe....it is not black and white

I have distorted nothing...I am just more balanced over this subject .than you

Agreeing with anEx Jw on certain matters  does not make one their Alia..it’s just acknowledging a fact that may be correct in a certain issue at a certain time.

as far as chiming in..we have discussed this before me with you actually...and that didn’t end very well either....you told me you were not my brother...so as I said...I am loath to enter such a discussion..it goes round and round in circles with insults thrown at each other....and everyone becomes like rabid dogs biting at each other and thinking it is okay because it is a forum...and thinking Jehovah is going to accept such behaviour and excuse us of it.....and I include myself in this as well.

I wish you well CC..I’m not to sure who you are...as I’m not to sure who anyone is here ...

As far as a culture thing...Jehovah’s laws are laws...I once had a elder say to me over a very serious matter.....” well it’s not how Australians are”....

no I thought...but it is how Jehovah is......

I won’t reply on this matter again....but I stand by my words and will not back off from them even tho I will remain silent...

Witnesses are allowed to disagree with each other..we are not robots....it does not make us apostates...or idiots...just people with differing views ...which may change at any given time..and also may not change.

I don’t always agree with Toms view..nor he with mine...but what a great conversation we would have in a car group..

You yourself have distorted facts..as have certain ex JWs....it’s a mess all around and it’s so hard to find ANY one Who can have a balanced view over it.

I do not speak out ignorance ..but deal with facts..everything else is a waste of time and effort..

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

As I said before -  JWs had to get by without proper government laws.  Now that governments were at last  taking their responsibility seriously,  to have an inquiry to see how they can close the loopholes in the laws. Now we can use this to improve the outcome of these matters. The ARC came way too late... there were many loopholes in the law.... same as in USA.

Arauna I agree with so much of what you say...but as a people we shouldn’t have needed the ARC..to do the right thing....that’s what some are arguing here.

And they are right....BUT..we have corrected  the error..even if it was forced on us....our policies have been updated..and this would never happen again...it will never be sorted in house or quietly .

we are under Jehovah’s Laws...and there are no loopholes with them...but he taught us...thru the ARC.

On 2/26/2021 at 10:55 AM, Anna said:

Love reading your experiences!

We have discussed this issue a number of times on here. Jehovah reads hearts.

Also, what about all those people who have never heard the good news? And since time does not stand still, there will always be those who have never heard, because people are being born and living through the stream of time, so people will not all be in exactly the same position when Armageddon comes. There will always be someone who may have accepted the truth had they learned it sooner, but then Armageddon came....will Jehovah say sorry, too late?....For sure he will not because he is a just and loving God. So when we say only baptized JWs will be saved, it cannot be true...

He will probably treat them like he did the thief on the stake next to him but the thing is he repented at the last moment...where as the other fellow didn’t ......so what happens to him....wouldn’t he be covered by Jesus ransom...?

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Habakkuk 1:2-3

How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing? And why do you tolerate oppression? Why are destruction and violence before me? And why do quarreling and conflict abound?

We're all familiar with Habakkuk's plight and we can add our own sentiments; "how much longer do we have to watch people suffering because of the things he mentioned, but also because of disease, starvation, old age etc.". My mother in law is 90, and is in severe pain from arthritis every day. Two of my friends died a horrible painful death from cancer. Small children dying of cancer and other diseases... everywhere you look there is SO much anguish and suffering. We ask the same questions as Habakkuk did 2600 years ago.... and Jehovah has had to watch mankind's suffering since the inception of sin. I have to keep reminding myself that Jehovah is the wisest being in the universe, also just and kind. Only he knows the perfect time to step in. Then also if we compare a lifetime of suffering of 80 years or so, and then eternity of mental peace and happiness and physical health, the suffering then is short lived and pales into insignificance.

It's a little easier to bare things if you know they are temporary....

I’m guessing it will go so far as tho we may feel we have been deceived or tricked....or he has completely  forgotten us....

I hope not but I often wonder if we will be tested as Jesus was...

Mathew 27:46

My God My God why has thou forsaken me....

( how utterly terrifying to feel that ) and STILL REMAIN faithful to A God who you think has left you..

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

The elders didn’t screw up Anna..it was the way things were done back then...their hands were tied....we have to acknowledge that...our policies have changed because of the ARC....

6 hours ago, xero said:

Thinking...what I often wonder is whether it's intentionally ambiguous to make us constantly try to solve the puzzle, and in trying we're forced into a spiritual pattern of reanalysis and humility as we realize how we know so much and yet so little and in knowing this we can see when people imagine themselves to be wiser than they actually are and for doing so not only realize this in ourselves but perhaps reconcile ourselves towards being a little less critical of the missteps of others as these have also tried and failed.

In the end those counted as meek aren't the ones who've solved all the puzzles.

Your exactly right brother....I often think as you just articulated..we know so much but really so little....Jehovah loves a seeker..a searcher of the scriptures...but that doesn’t mean the reward will be any different than one that’s is not quiet so interested in scriptures ..but has bowed their knee to their God Jehovah.

The things we may grasp a little earlier can be a stumbling stone..as Jesus was with the Pharisees...or it can develop in us a much admired and treasured thing...that is highly favoured by Jehovah...humility and grace in remembering where we came from..( I was sort of a heathen from the world ) I owe my life because of the witnessing work..organised by the then GB

I liken us as the same as the Israelites that were cornered at the Red Sea...Pharaoh bearing down and the mountains on one side the sea in the front ...

So where is this God Jehovah they all submitted to...nothing is turning out as promised...let’s stone Moses and Aaron in our fear or disappointment...

( and NO I do not liken Moses to the GB) 

BUT..ones perhaps with a little more faith..or insight ...bore up..and did not panic..or push ahead...now THAT is the type of faith he loves....mind you they were probably wetting themselves in fear whilst waiting for him to act.

We know so very little..even when we  say we know a lot!..( or think it) and besides....I remember where I came from🙂 I’m not sure if it is intentional as you think..perhaps it is...but it’s very important as to how we act with insights we may THINK we have....it’s there for all to search for.......but we often have to search so hard....we have to use the lamp..and bend our back...possibly in a uncomfortable position for a long time to find that spiritual gem or insight.

But how we handle that gem.  Shows our true personality...

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I've just started reading Revelation. This time I'm trying to concentrate on every word. 

An old, wise, Elder once said to me, "Every thing in the Bible is there for a reson. It's not just to take up space". 

Revelation chapter One. v5 & 6

To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— ⁶  and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

So this is to the Anointed ones.

v 7 & 8....  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.  Yes, Amen.⁸  “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now this confuses me a bit. Verse 7 is talking about Jesus. It says He is coming with the clouds. 

But verse 8 is talking about GOD, and it says 'and who is coming'.    

So, are they both coming ? If so how ?

Also verse 8 says, “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God" which is fully understandable as Almighty God has always existed and always will. 

But verse 17 says, "And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 

And this is Jesus speaking 

So God is the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus is the First and the Last.  This will need some explaining. 

I've said that i understand the bit about God, but I'm not sure about the bit concerning Jesus

Jesus was of course God's First creation.....   But in what way is Jesus the Last ? 

I THINK..which doesn’t mean a lot...but hear goes..from what I’ve read..the Alpha and Omega can mean both Jesus and Jehovah...Jesus being the first creation of Jehovah and the last creation by him to be resurrected .

Its a title that they both can lay rightful ownership off...( obviously only after Jesus proved successful ) 

I have also come to the conclusion that no one can understand Revelation unless they really understand the Hebrew Scriptures ...the secrets or keys to understand revelation is in them.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

None. You do realize that the Terminator reference was to Alan, though, I trust.

No. All good points.

Sometimes, probably not often enough, I write out a comment and then sit on it for awhile, even to next day. If I still feel it good to go, I let fly. Sometimes I think the remark is better canned or put elsewhere.

Good advice for me to follow too.....

On 2/13/2021 at 7:29 AM, Isabella said:

A court in southern Russia has handed the country's longest prison sentence yet to an elderly Jehovah’s Witness leader for organizing an “extremist” group, the religious organization said Wednesday.

Authorities accused Alexander Ivshin, 63, of organizing the activities of a banned organization, including hosting Bible discussions with friends via video link, until his April 2020 detention as part of mass raids in the Krasnodar region. Russia outlawed the Jehovah’s Witnesses as “extremists” in 2017.

 

Alexander Ivshin, 63, was sentenced to 7.5 years in prison for activities including hosting Bible discussions via video link.

 

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/02/12/russian-jehovahs-witness-handed-longest-extremism-prison-sentence-a72916

These brothers and sisters are so tough...I admire them greatly xx

1 minute ago, César Chávez said:

And yet, he had abusive language, When did you see the Librarian "BAN" him for that poor behavior. That's the hypocrisy I was alluding to with John Butler. Jah2me didn't mind his abusive language nor did TTH, Insider, Anna and people as yourself. But they are willing to call me on it. TTH, has threatened me with "banning" me again. That's my point in a nutshell.

Well I hope you don’t get banned..I don’t see why you would..probably for the reason you have quoted above..

Yes I liked JRT...for a number of reasons of which I won’t go into here...but yes I also winced as some of his phrases.... but I got him...

As to abusive  language..well I tend to be surrounded by it normally...so what you and some others here class as abusive probably wouldn’t bother me too much..

personally if I’m honest I dont really know who’s who..or who’s what..here...

But I would object strongly if you were banned...

On 2/13/2021 at 10:58 AM, Anna said:

I agree. It is a sin against your body if you fill it with unhealthy food and eat to excess. Why? Because you clog your arteries, get diabetes, ruin your joints and a host of other ailments directly associated with an unhealthy lifestyle, one of which is gluttony. I would say it's tantamount to smoking, unfortunately it's hard to define. How fat is too fat? How much food is too much food? Where would one draw the line? What would be the criterion for counseling someone and for forming a judicial committee? So unfortunately, it is impossible and will never happen. Unfortunately too though, these obese brothers and sisters are giving a bad witness. Perhaps if they realized this, they would try and live healthy for Jehovah, if not for themselves.
Also of course, some really cannot help it because of certain medical condition or medication. This is only a small percentage though. But you will not know everyone's circumstance, and if the elders were to pry into reasons why someone is fat, then that would border on harassment. So I don't think anyone will be disfellowshipped for being fat anytime soon, if that were the case, then congregations in America would go down by half 😂

 Nor should they..this thread is stupid....brothers and sisters are dying out there.. being  tortured..thrown into prison...losing their employment..families turning on them...their faith tested to the max!!!!!!

And the worse is yet to come for many of us

and this is the Calibre of point of discussion...c’mon..people!!!

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Be careful what your stupidity is insinuating your pathetic jerk. That will get you summoned to a court of law. I was referring to JTR's behavior as an anti-witness with a poor excuse of acting civil, that that idiot Anna didn't have a problem with, nor anyone else here. I remember someone saying, they were going to miss him.  Yet she called me a TROLL when in fact people like you are the TROLLS. That means she is also Anti-Watchtower. That makes her a TROLL and an Apostate to.

I miss him ...

8 hours ago, xero said:

I do think Tom's reference to the outside source which distinguishes between institutional abuse and abuse in familial non-institutional settings is important. The source noted 1-2% of any given population having issues in this regard. This same percentage appears to be present among those identifying as JW's. These are humans w/the same failings. What's at issue is what it is that's suggested - conflating institutional abuse, Sunday Schools, Camps and the like w/paid clergy/laity vs abuse which happens in a home and later reported on.

Bad men,,and women will always infiltrate the congregation..we have so many scriptural facts on that...I think where the society had to readjust and were forced to readjust was on our policies...we need to admit that...and we now have policies that allowed in house and even strongly encouraged in house handling ..removed..due to those policies being changed...certain things will no longer be handled or tolerated as they were once.

It would have been best if the brothers had done this by themselves instead of the ARC forcing them too...BUT...they have changed..been corrected....we are being refined..wether we like it or not...wether  it hurts or not...we are still his imperfect people...wether chastised by the world or not...

8 hours ago, xero said:

I do think Tom's reference to the outside source which distinguishes between institutional abuse and abuse in familial non-institutional settings is important. The source noted 1-2% of any given population having issues in this regard. This same percentage appears to be present among those identifying as JW's. These are humans w/the same failings. What's at issue is what it is that's suggested - conflating institutional abuse, Sunday Schools, Camps and the like w/paid clergy/laity vs abuse which happens in a home and later reported on.

I also read of a ex JW who stated he went to the Bible students ( Russell’s followers) and some other groups of which I cannot remember and he noted that all the problems he/she saw with In The org...was also present within those said groups..it’s everywhere...even Franz who wrote his famous book said he did not see that this was a issue any worse than any other faith...

4 hours ago, xero said:

I think a lot of JW's are losing their minds right now. Expectation is making the heart sick. I get it.

I look at Christendom and see that their scripturally incorrect views give them an advantage of sorts insofar as these believe, in the main that death leads immediately to a resurrection. This is a lie, of course, but if you believe the lie, you then aren't really waiting for anything. Armageddon and the ultimate righting of wrong becomes a nebulous idea so far off so as to cause them to take no notice. They just get of with living.

W/JWs...The frustration I see comes from all the not knowing. Many believed at one time or another that they really knew. I was worried when I started pioneering that I wouldn't be able to get enough hours under my belt before the end came. Clearly I was wrong. Then I thought about it all and researched all the groups who really believed the end was close at hand. There have been many. It's hard to be in a state of readiness if you really believe that some super important thing is going to happen this takes a toll on both your body and your mind. You can get into a sort of PTSD. People have differing reactions too to information given. No one listens to a talk or reads a publication without creating a narrative or movie, filling in the gaps with themselves. The anxiety can build up in people and then like a human immune system it may select a target to attack. Many are focused on the GB or anointed or these kinds of things. I get it. These things are not the real reasons. The real reasons come from all the not knowing while being in a state of stress.

This is where you have to go back. Pump the brakes and pray. Jehovah is in charge. Jehovah created this universe (through his Son) and his son said "take courage, I have conquered the world". Read carefully the book of Job. Keep studying. Don't stop living. Don't go towards hating on the world, hating on apostates, hating on the GB, hating on anything. Understand that the real enemy is in the spirit realm. Understand that you yourself can be your own enemy with your own thinking and obsessions. Meditate on what it means to wait, what is it doing to you.

I jumped out of a plane by myself once with only a morning's worth of training. It felt like suicide. During the training (over a high jump pit) we were told how to spot and deal w/a parachute malfunction - how to discard the tangled chute and deploy your reserve. The bikers running the jump site freaked out the guy in front of me and he didn't jump. They joked "You'd be lucky to get a malfunction - you get two rides for the price of one!" But they also told us once we got a chute to be sure we got lined up properly for a landing and relax and look up (don't look down) when you're one your way to a landing, otherwise the landing would be too hard as you'd stiff up and maybe break a leg. (we used old Vietnam era chutes, not the fancy kinds). So to me the illustration is to be sure you have yourself lined up right, and when you do relax and look up (not at your bro/sis/GB/world) and you'll stick the landing.

If you're feeling anxiety, you're in good company. Just make sure while you feel trapped you don't chew off your own leg or the legs of those around you. The trap isn't your bros/sis's/elders/gb... it's this world under Satan's influence. You fight the trap by following as closely as you can the patterns set  which lead to faith. Just be sure that when you see another human that you imitate faith based on the promises in the bible.

Eat right, get regular exercise, find something to do which you enjoy and do what you can and learn to ignore the ones who imagine they know you and what you can do better. (I'm still working on all of this too)

Brilliant advice!

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He was not removed for that reason.

Look, nothing has changed with this new identification of the GB with the faithful slave. Before that was made the situation was the same. Headship came from a small group of under a dozen who, for practical reasons, physically gather together. Should they need a replacement, they look into the ranks of anointed worldwide, and select one. It was that way before. It is that way now. 

Who do you think they are going to select? Someone who just recently began to partake, or one who has done so for a long time? Someone with relatively little experience in the Christian preaching work, or one who has specialized in it full-time for decades?

This is not hard to answer. Even before this arrangement, anointed within the congregations knew, were content with, and deported themselves, that their assignment was to rule in the new system, not now. But it has apparently become the thing that there are now some anointed, whether for real or “self-promoted”  I know not, whether associated with a congregation or on the outside I know not, who want to be NOW seen as having authority. It has never been that way. 

As far as I am concerned, Witness’s non-response to my request that she arrange the car group says it all. She bitterly complains on how sisters with many children are “ignored.” When I ask how would she handle the situation she herself presented she is silent. Yet she is not silent on everything. She continues to chime in about her being “cheated” out of her anointed status.

Someone really anointed, someone really concerned with the sheep, would not ignore the scenario she presented herself as a complaint. She would tell how it is solved. She may have been like that at one time. But she appears far too interested in self-promotion” these days for her to be so now.

Someone really anointed or really Invited  would not promote or make it known on line ...it’s as simple as that..a really humble one ..would allow them selves  be wronged..as Jesus did and as the apostles did..

PRIDE makes them have the need to be known.....

12 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Why on Earth would the GB suddenly decide that ONLYTHEY are the Faithful and discreet Slave ? When the teaching was that ALL ANOINTED ONES were the Faithful and discreet Slave

Why on Earth would the GB then say that the Anointed SHOULD NOT GATHER TOGETHER as it would be WORKING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT ?  

Why ? Well I think it shows jealousy or fear on the part of the GB and maybe others too. 

Do you think Jehovah lacks the power to correct the errors you talk about?

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

How sad you are, having to twist even the scriptures to suit your purpose. 

Like I've said of you before, you sit on the fence, not knowing which way to turn. You say you are an Insider, giving information, but you are too frightened to stop serving your GB.  And you, like all other JWs, seem jealous of the Anointed. 

Every man and his dog on line now claims to be anointed....it’s hard to take any of them serious...why on earth would he or any one be jealous of them??...I’ve had my differences with JWI here..but I will stand up for him..on this..I think he’s  got a lot more guts and backbone ..than you give him credit.

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. She is not absolutely right about the “hypocrisy.” She does not forgive it. She too quickly converts human inadequacy into hypocrisy. She does the very opposite of Jesus when confronted with the “hypocrisy” of his twelve. He forgives them up to 77 times. He patiently corrects them once again when, on the night he knows he is to die, they have begun squabbling over who is the greater—the most childish of concerns.

Jesus forgave freely. Witness does not. Not at all. Possibly she did at one time. But she doesn’t anymore.

Let us say that a given meeting for field service consists of 32. Three are elders, each of whom have their wives, and one of them also has 2 children. Two of those three elders work full time and only get out in service on the weekends. One of those two missed service last weekend and has butterflies himself. Of the other adults, about half are weak and look forward to working with those stronger. Scattered among them are three other children. Six have their arrangements pre-made, and are not open to being arranged differently. Four of the adults have to leave early. You have an assortment of vehicles that carry 4 persons each, 5 max. You (check with 4Jah on this) are not one to separate children from their parents. Two publishers arrive as you are forming groups. The two unaccompanied mothers have 5 children between them and two car seats. One of them arrived in a two door car because her husband is unbelieving and doesn’t like 4 doors. 

Arrange the car group for me. I don’t disagree with everything you say. All the same, arrange the car group for me.

Well it totally depends on what amount of damage the hypocrisy .( that’s the only point I’m addressing here) .which is there...actually did...and we are not and nor will we be for many years be like Jesus ....In  The ability or power...of forgiveness ...but we can try....I think that’s what your saying Tom.

I think what certain ones here have done.....is  allowing their pain..and often a extreme pain ...a righteous anger ...turn to resentment and bitterness that may even be justified....BUT...it then it controls them....thus satan has got them either way.

Im Not  sure exactly what was said In This thread as I have blocked a couple but can pick up a fair bit.

what helps me..is remembering where Jehovah planted his son...right smack In The middle of his.....Then people...the most self righteous pious lot if there ever was...but ALSO there..were the wheat...and people struggling to serve their God .....and a lot that have been hurt forget that...and their anger consumes them and they are then a tool of the devil ....thus those that were the culprits..those  hypocrites...won.

I actually dont write this for anyone here ...because I know they will smart mouth my comment...but hopefully some one reading who has been hurt may be encouraged.

36 minutes ago, John Houston said:

You do know this reasoning is whack. I am being disfellowshipped, because I have sinned and do not want to repent or it shames Jehovah's name. The congregation does not need to know what I did, but that I have been disciplined and they should take the appropriate action toward me. Not treat me as usual but as one who has defamed Jehovah not the organization. It's his name and reputation my actions have stained. So this removal action from the congregation has to be done. No elder can bring action to just remove me just because he dislikes me, he himself would have to lie and bring falsehoods to arrange the meetings if I have not done anything. So again your premise is faulty. You don't like the whole arrangement of The JW, so all is flawed. But it isn't. Many want it to fail, but have nothing to replace it. A void is not a place to go after being with family. One headed by the Almighty and his Son. The men are imperfect, the GB, are imperfect, but they are the ones at the wheel of this bus, so as long as it is going down the path of everlasting life and Jehovah has not changed the drivers, no man can. No matter the fuss we can put up can change what Jehovah is using. It is never human uprising that brings about change in Jehovah's arrangement, it is him alone, at his set appointed time. Man can't rush him. Nor see from his perspective, but we should. So things are fine, could be better, but not what persons want, it is what we need NOW! THe world will use what they see to attack, those who hurt from what happened to them while here, will join them also, Satan will use these moments, and media will fan to,fire things along. But we will just stay where we are, watching the world end. Enduring to the end as best we can, preaching to,the end. And as Jehovah said he would do himself, make his name known among the nations, that he is Jehovah! And to do that, no wicked will live, no governments will survive. Only the righteous, meek ones who are covered by Jehovah's mercy in that day survive! And they are not all JW's. But their heart is disposed to Jehovah, for Jehovah to save them in that hour. He did that! Who ever is left standing should be blessed. 

I hope everything works out for you John

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Emma, this article does not really address the issue I raised. This is more for people who know what they are supposed to do, but are looking for loopholes to God's arrangement for salvation. This is not the issue here.

The article states that: "We are aware that many hypothetical or “What if . . .” cases can be raised, cases that seem to involve extenuating circumstances. What point, though, is there in speculating on these? Jesus’ illustration of the “sheep” and “goats” makes it plain that a time will come when the division between the “sheep” and the “goats” will be clear and final".

But that's not the issue here either. We are not asking about Jesus judging who is a sheep and who is a goat, but whether the criterion for being one or the other is baptism (washing their robes in the blood of the lamb). In other words, we know that not everyone who is baptised will be judged as a sheep, so is it possible that someone, or should I say millions, might be judged as sheep despite not being baptised and not knowing Jesus, for the simple reason because they never got the chance?

It's not even a case of speculating about many hypothetical "what ifs", or extenuating circumstances, but it is literally a case of billions simply not getting the opportunity.

If we are going to be realistic, then we know that there are going to be billions of people who won't get a choice before Armageddon comes.

I sort of like Russell’s thoughts on it...not sure if it’s wrong or not...but he explained exactly as to the point you have made...that many won’t ever here the preaching work...for what ever reason this Is ...they will not experience the second and final death at Armageddon....but just the first death...thus pay the price of sin....they will then be resurrected back IN to a new world and be given an opportunity to learn what they never did in the old world...they may or may not listen to it...then they will pay the price of the second death.

Many will definitely experience the second death at Armageddon because of their willful ignorance,,,(the false prophet and the beast) ...maybye more...??????

Rutherford changed that understanding,,,as he did with the Joel and the locust...we have reverted back to a number of teachings or understanding of Russell.....this may be one of them...hopefully 

9 hours ago, Emma Rose said:

Indicating humility.

More like playing the politician...