Thinking

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah. 

So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now. 

If they need punishing or discipline ...off course..just as you and I....in fact they will carry a heavier punishment as they are teachers....but that is in his jurisdiction to decide..not yours or mine...keep in mind....

Aaron built the golden calf and did not even take responsibility for what he did but conviemtly  blamed the people....what he did was massively wrong ...yet when Moses came down from the mountain ...he still offered a chance for all this committing spiritual idolatry another chance by telling all those who stood for Jehovah to stand by his side.

Arrons  life was spared because he did...but more out of consideration for his brother Moses...nevertheless Moses/Jesus offered all those worshipping the Golden calf another chance at repentance...obviously a lot never took that.

The point being...the second man in charge did commit idolatry...yet was spared..it’s food for thought..

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Witness I take my hat off to you. you have worded it much better that I. 

Spirit directed Org eh ? So why do they get so much wrong. 

Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah 

Lol...well I probably am a misfit...I smiled at that..but I think I will still follow Joshua’s and Kalebs example....they would have hated to see what Aaron was doing with the Golden calf...I’m sure they would have stood apart mentally and spiritually  from that...but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people...

I remember a number of personal accounts of sisters and brothers being put into German  concentration camps...they would often get taunted by their captors because those in leadership at that time...COs and Elders and even those in authority of the branch office betrayed them.....and those little sisters of no account and probably viewed as insignificant in the cong ...said.....”they may do as they wish..but for me...I will remain loyal to my God”

So this little old misfit will do the same....:).....along with many many others who will stand firm and loyal to their God and Christ....You have underestimated so many of us...

.

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf. 

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.  

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors  .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you. 

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain. 

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders and others that bring Jehovah's name into disrepute ? Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now. From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know. I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org. Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ? But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?  

"you have too much bitterness John" Indeed. Have you been a victim of Child Abuse ? If not then you have no idea. 

You have no idea who you are speaking with John..I and my family have been victims of much worse than child abuse ....it is you who have no idea...and it’s is because I have had a spear thru my heart...that I feel I can speak as I do...

there are bad men in positions of authority....wolves In Sheeps clothing..heartless and cruel men who are drunk on their own power over a cong..

having said that ..most are not like that....but why are you expecting g such a clean org now....that is impossible..we won’t be clean and acceptable until after the thousand years...at the moment we are in critical times hard to deal with...he encourages us to keep putting up with each other..because he knew how hard and difficult such things would be..

i am terribly sorry if you had been a victim of abuse...many of us are victims of the most severe abuse...abuse is not always of the sexual kind.......some have not survived.....

there is much wrong amongst his people...but the point is....you didn’t dedicate yourself to an org.....you should have dedicated yourself the the Almighty Creator......

none of us have the answers...you don’t..nor I...only Jehovah will fix this..and thus faith must come Into to play..

now I must take my leave from you....as you are not good for me....you open my wounds and the festering starts all over again...you promote bitterness and restment....and they are my fall down...Ive had to work very hard at understanding why Jehovah allows such horrendous things amongst his people.....the answers are there John...but I know you are past wanting that.......even tho I know it is possible  to heal....and see the big picture...Again I am sincely sorry and anguished at your pain from abuse...

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ? 

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB. 

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

I’m not blind John..I have just become master over my resentment anger and hurt....otherwise I would be like you....persecuting my brothers and sisters...

I deleted this post as I think it went to the wrong person...I find it hard to navigate this forum ..

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the JW Org at the beginning of this year due to the massive amount of Child Abuse / Pedophilia that has been and still is allowed to go on in the JW Org. 

All you say about serving God, be it Yahweh or Jehovah, had no connection to the JW Org. This is something I'm trying to get into people's heads. The JW Org does not 'own' God. God, through Jesus Christ is available to anyone, not just through your GB. 

The GB have in fact put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. They have said many times in the past, and it has been shown here on this website, that the GB have said, people can only be saved through Armageddon by being part of JW Org and by doing exactly what the GB say. Now that is putting themselves in the place of Jesus and its totally wrong. 

Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same. 

But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,, 

so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.

instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...

The message bible is not my bible john ..I use lots of different translations but I do agree with you it can be fairly loose ..it was written for those who have never read a bible before and like simple phrases 

it actuallt advises its readers that it is just a introduction bible and should be used as a stepping stone to other study translations ..sometimes I like it ..other times I find it hopeless ..yes the GB have appeared to have sat them selves in  the seat of Moses .

we will all stand on a individual basis before Jehovah wether GB or not. 

But  you feel as you do..give yourself a break and allow some peace within yourself  ..find yourself a path that gives you that..get on with your life and enjoy it .

17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes but some pretend to have authority, so they demand attention. Whereas others are just honest in their thoughts and comments. 

Yes I know what you are saying....but the thing is..Jehovah is using them to get the job done (preaching work)...he is backing that work....and he will use whatever he has at his disposal  to achieve that...for as you know he cannot bring the end until the preaching work is accomplished...but having respect for what he is using and allowing doesn’t mean we are gullible....we still must be like the beroeans who tested out Paul before they put faith in him....it’s hard but doable ..

Years ago when I was struggling with anger and resentment a brother shared this scripture with me...I’ll write it as written In the message bible...

AMOS 5:13,14

Justice is a lost cause Evil is epidemic Decent people throw up their hands, protest and Rebuke are useless a waste of time..14 seek good and not evil and live.....

5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Explain please.

I don't pretend to be of the Anointed. I am not a puppet Elder.  I am open about the fact that I don't understand many things in God's word. 

I'm not asking anyone to follow me. 

We ALL have the power to stumble another....no matter who we Are...

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Thinking and final words of Yours is: 

 

Thanks!

You are seeing what you wish to see....still not seeing the big picture...

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Luke 17 v 1&2.  Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! ²  It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones. 

The GB should take not. 

So should you and I John....

On 11/1/2018 at 4:48 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

1) study it

many JW study Bible, but how it is possible that also many of them not saw "errors" in doctrines for all this decades. How is possible that many JW accepted so many teaching and instructions that was later been abandoned? Well it seems how something is/was lacking in our personal Bible study for all these years "in the truth".

2) accept the logic as facts  

as we all are witnesses to that too, wrong logic can deceive us.

3) holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand 

do you talking, in this statement, about "to be inspired" by God? If you are, than this is contrariwise, in opposition to GB claim how them, as anointed ones, are not inspired by holy spirit. If anointed are not inspired, how non-anointed can be inspired? To confuse and make foggy on all this, that same GB teaching how, despite the fact they are "not inspired by spirit", they are "guided by spirit". :)) 

4) unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way

It is "unique" too, how people in some periods of time accepted also some teachings and was been deceived. Modern examples are; Nazi ideology and era when millions of German people followed Fuhrer, or Communism ideology in east Europe or more better example is China people or North Korea. Millions of people accepted teachings in same way. Capitalism is also unique ideology for millions worldwide.   

On 11/1/2018 at 4:48 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

1) study it

many JW study Bible, but how it is possible that also many of them not saw "errors" in doctrines for all this decades. How is possible that many JW accepted so many teaching and instructions that was later been abandoned? Well it seems how something is/was lacking in our personal Bible study for all these years "in the truth".

2) accept the logic as facts  

as we all are witnesses to that too, wrong logic can deceive us.

3) holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand 

do you talking, in this statement, about "to be inspired" by God? If you are, than this is contrariwise, in opposition to GB claim how them, as anointed ones, are not inspired by holy spirit. If anointed are not inspired, how non-anointed can be inspired? To confuse and make foggy on all this, that same GB teaching how, despite the fact they are "not inspired by spirit", they are "guided by spirit". :)) 

4) unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way

It is "unique" too, how people in some periods of time accepted also some teachings and was been deceived. Modern examples are; Nazi ideology and era when millions of German people followed Fuhrer, or Communism ideology in east Europe or more better example is China people or North Korea. Millions of people accepted teachings in same way. Capitalism is also unique ideology for millions worldwide.   

The apostles also believed errors....in thinking Jesus Kingdom was coming there and then ...and he would be a king amongst them.....and the thing is....Jesus ALLOWED that error to be believed by them....he knew exactly what they were hoping in and believing.....yet he deliberately chose for them to go on believing that lie or mistaken belief ...

im sure there was more to that than I can work out..but I can see it was a testing and a threshing of their faith....they had made their own assumptions...and leant on their own understandings.....much like we as a people have...at times....and he has allowed it once again...and for more good and spiritual  reasons that I can work out.....but I have worked a bit out...and it is a time of confusion and threshing and sifting....

we are very much like the Christians of Jesus times....nothing seems to be working out like we thought...we have assumed wrong things...taught wrong things...some really major stuff ups actually ...

without  doubt....each and every one of Jehovah’s people are being sifted...our errors are being allowed....

Your missing the big picture Srecho.....since when has his people ever been with out errror...it’s a pattern we have down thru the ages....the Israelites...the Jewish System....and he warmed us about wolves in sheeps clothing infiltrating the congs and misleading many....the Jambares and jannis type of men...

You have put too much faith in Men my brother...and you have allowed them to stumble you.....look beyond them...and to Jehovah....he will correct the errors as he always has done with his people....

i know it’s very hard and painful ...at times agonizing...but being threshed and winnowed is just that....

Jehovah forgave Aaron his betrayal...he forgave Peter his betrayals.....also stop and think about this....the Jewish System was so bad...so self righteous and pious.(those in positions of authority )..yet Jehovah still allowed that people..his people....to birth the messiah....incredible really isn’t it....he put his son right in the midst of them...

what you wrote above is all true...logical.....I get what your saying  and why you say it....but I’m sorry but I still feel you are missing the big picture....but hey...I miss a lot of fine details.....actually I often wonder why he bothers with any of us...:)