20 hours ago, Anna said:

I am not sure, but I have a feeling this may have been written or approved by Raymond Franz. @JW Insider may know better.

I think you are right. Fred Franz wrote a 1969 article that got much of these concerns started over the definition of "porneia," and this article started a number of judicial issues which were typically handled by the Service Department (Harley Miller, Merton Campbell, etc.) Believe it or not, Knorr and Fred Franz had very little input into congregational discipline issues from about 1968 to nearly 1980. Harley Miller was trusted to manage this through his team. He was the chief "executioner" in those days. Fred Franz was a prophecy specialist and the primary doctrines he took an interest in were related to fulfillment of prophecy. Nathan Knorr was a bureaucrat, whose work running a fast-growing organization left him with almost no time for anything else. With the only other active organizational officers like G.Suiter, L.Swingle, and M.Henschel, the g.b. only existed for corporate, bureaucratic functions like signing checks, buying presses, paper, property and ink, etc.

The governing body did not exist as a "body" or even a "committee" of any kind until 1971 when R.Franz, G.Gangas, L.Greenlees, and W.Jackson were added to the corporate-defined officers. But none of these men, not even Knorr, even in 1971 would have thought it possible to suggest a change in doctrine, which could have only fallen to F.Franz.

There became one exception to that rule, because one member of this new Governing Body was put there specifically because he had successfully completed the Aid Book, and a couple items from the Aid Book resulted in policy/doctrinal changes. One of those policy changes was the creation (in 1971) of the "elder arrangement" with committees, which by extension, resulted in the creation of the "Governing Body." But Franz, in his book, says that even then 1971-1974, he still would never had thought of suggesting a change in doctrine, and the initial meetings of the GB were not about spiritual matters, but just bureaucratic matters like rubber-stamping the sign-off on lists of names selected for full-time branch assignments and traveling overseers. But Knorr began bringing in some of the questionable disfellowshipping decisions (from Harley Miller and Merton Campbell, etc) and other Service Department issues. Most people didn't notice, but the Writing Department was still on a 20-year cycle (updating articles that had been printed approximately 20 years earlier, starting in the mid-1930's) with a lot more, new prophecy-related updates by F.Franz interspersed.

So the 1972 article was to be written as a defense of the current disfellowshippings by the Service Department, and R.Franz was given the assignment during a time when he still did not question the general doctrines. Remember that the Aid Book didn't even question our chronology even though R.Franz already should have known better based on all the contrary research they found while preparing that book. According to Franz it was not until between 1974 and 1976 when he realized that he disagreed with the rest of the Governing Body who voted that a sister was not free to get a divorce because her husband only had anal sex with another woman. The Governing Body's opinion was that oral or anal sex or bestiality on the part of the husband with other women (or animals) would not have freed her to remarry. At this point he was sure the other members had it wrong and when the policy finally changed, he says he was happy that he was also assigned to write the updated correction to the old ruling in 1976.  

6 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Actually as an afterthought, how do you substantiate this?

This was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I was havin' a laugh (or in this case "having a loaf" as one of your UK ads says it.) But here goes:

There are about 365 days in a year. So all disfellowshippings take place between 0 and 365 days after the Memorial. The average amount of time is therefore 365/2, which is 182.5 days. Just to allow for some unpredictable skewing, and to be a little more conservative, and because the word "most" is technically at least 50.0001%, I pretended that the year has two extra weeks, so that the average would be 380/2 which is 190 days.

So it was no different than saying that about half of all disfellowshippings will take place during a six-month period, on average. Saying on average, should make the estimate even a bit more conservative, since some years all of a congregation's disfellowshippings might take place towards Winter, but in other years all of them might take place closer to Summer.

It should always be the case that a disfellowshipping is either 182.5 (or 183) days before or after a Memorial because this will cover the entire year, although I left out the word "on average" here which would have better accounted for the times when one Memorial is in March but the following year's Memorial is in April. Still, if, on average, all events (DF'ing or anything else) take place either 182.5 days before or after a Memorial, then the average amount of days that these events take place on EITHER side of a Memorial is 91.25 days (182.5/2) or 91.375 accounting for leap years. I rounded this to 90 instead of 91.375.**

** In my own experience in about 6 congregations from Californian, Missouri and New York, there is a strong skewing toward summer disfellowshippings, and some of this might even be related to the reminders all the elders get in the "season" of extra shepherding visits encouraged just before the Memorial, and the follow-ups just after. This helps my numbers by a few decimal points, but is unnecessary where I said "average." 

At any rate, after correcting the 90 to 91.375, I stand by these numbers, on average.

4 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Quick question. What would be the difference between keeping a commandment versus keeping a tradition?

Sounds rhetorical, here, too. One, of course, involves a commandment from a higher authority and a tradition just refers to periodically repeated actions (or attendant rites) not based on any specific requirements or commandments. I suppose you might be pointing out the fact that the Israelites were keeping a command to celebrate their harvests, and Thanksgiving has nothing to with a command to celebrate harvests. If this is what you are saying, I would agree.

4 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Did the Israelites force, kill, and infect with diseases native Americans by their traditions?

The Israelites played a part in every one of those actions toward the native Egyptians in the land they left and toward the Canaanites and other related nations in the land promised to them, and even towards non-conforming members of their own nation of Israelites. But it was by command of God, as they understood it, or through the direct actions of God.   

44 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Fascinating to see an inconsistent use of Jehovah's name as mentioned in the preface. More detail on the reasoning would be of interest.

True. Thanks for pointing that out. Psalm 23's omission of the divine name was especially glaring. I think that the following must include the portion of the preface that you referred to:

 

2 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

The world's most valuable book': Copy of psalms dated 1640 sells at New York auction for record $14.2M

Alas! As with so many facets of life, even the value of the Bible as a printed book has sometimes been eclipsed by the value put on of a book of science. Wikipedia (linked from a Wikipedia article about the Bay Psalter)

• The Codex Leicester (also briefly known as Codex Hammer) is a collection of famous scientific writings by Leonardo da Vinci. The Codex is named after Thomas Coke, later created Earl of Leicester, who purchased it in 1719. Of Leonardo's 30 scientific journals, the Codex may be the most famous of all. The manuscript currently holds the record for the second highest sale price of any book, as it was sold to Bill Gates at Christie's auction house on 11 November 1994 in New York for US$30,802,500 (equivalent to $49,772,200 in 2016).^[1][2][3]

On 11/24/2017 at 11:29 PM, The Librarian said:

I recall jw saying with some pride that former President of Zimbabwe, Mugabe's wife nicknamed "Gucci" Grace due her spending habits is a JW. Is this correct?

I have heard this too, but never from a source I knew personally. I believe it may have been true of the first wife of South Africa's President Nelson Mandela. Per Wikipedia (and other sources):

• Evelyn became a Jehovah's Witness,^[2] and separated from Mandela in 1955 after what her husband described in his autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom, as an irreconcilable conflict between politics and religion. "I could not give up my life in the struggle, and she could not live with my devotion to something other than herself and her family", he wrote. "I never lost my admiration for her, but in the end we could not make our marriage work."^[13]
• Evelyn moved to Cofimvaba in the eastern Cape, where she opened up a shop, and pinned a notice to the gate asking media to leave her alone.^[3] One reporter, Fred Bridgland, did manage to obtain an interview, in which he discussed the proposals surrounding Mandela's release from prison. She was angry at the situation, believing that it was being treated like the second coming of Christ and proclaiming "How can a man who has committed adultery and left his wife and children be Christ? The whole world worships Nelson too much. He is only a man."^[3]
• Evelyn spent much of her later years working as a Jehovah's Witness missionary. She kept the name Mandela, but in the late 1990s she married retired Soweto businessman Simon Rakeepile.^[14]
• She died on 30 April 2004.^[1] Mandela attended the funeral along with his second and third wives.^[15]

Perhaps, since Grace Mugabe also came from South Africa, these facts helped promote a rumor.

I did notice that in the comments section of more than one newspaper article about Grace Mugabe, that commenters left messages that have the sound of something one of Jehovah's Witnesses might say in her defense:

Here's one good example found at: https://dev.newsday.co.zw/2015/11/mugabe-is-suffering-grace/ The article ends on this note:

• On Friday Grace told a rally she often skips meals in solidarity with starving Zimbabweans.

One of the best responses was:

• Please tell the Queen that SOMETIMES we eat in solidarity with the first family

Most of the responses were sarcastic, except possibly this one:

I don't mention this as evidence that Grace Mugabe might actually be a JW, but to show how easy it is to keep such a rumor going, if that's what it is.

19 minutes ago, John Houston said:

Matthew you do realize in reading what Jehovah asked of the nation of Israel was that they be HIS special property, any who wanted to serve had to go through certain things be part of the nation.

On 9/15/2016 at 11:44 PM, Nicole said:

In fact these austere and religious settlers of America would have been dismayed had they known of the long and popular history of harvest festivals, of which their Thanksgiving was only the latest. .... The harvest festival, with its attendant rites, seems to have spread out from ... Egypt and Syria and Mesopotamia. The first or the last sheaf of wheat was offered to the `Great Mother' ... Astarte

Curiously, the nation of Israel was also asked to celebrate the harvest with its attendant rites, offering up the first sheaf of wheat to Jehovah.

• (Exodus 34:22,26) 22 “And you will celebrate your Festival of Weeks with the first ripe fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering [Harvest] at the turn of the year. . . . 26 “The best of the first ripe fruits of your soil you are to bring to the house of Jehovah your God.

Two of the three primary holy festivals were Harvest festivals:

• (Exodus 23:15-17) . . .. 16 Also, you are to observe the Festival of Harvest of the first ripe fruits of your labors, of what you sow in the field; and the Festival of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the results of your labors. 17 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the true Lord, Jehovah.

Many in Israel confused this with the same rites that others followed and offered these not just to Jehovah, but according to some of the earliest mentions of Jehovah's name in Hebrew archaeology: Jehovah and his Astoret (Astarte/Ashtoreth).

Some of the "attendant rituals" for the harvest holiday periods included the following:

• (Leviticus 2:12-16) 12 “‘You may present them to Jehovah as an offering of the firstfruits, but they must not be brought to the altar as a pleasing aroma. 13 “‘Every grain offering you make is to be seasoned with salt; and you must not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be missing from your grain offering. Along with every offering of yours, you will present salt. 14 “‘If you present the grain offering of the first ripe fruits to Jehovah, you should present new grain roasted with fire, coarsely crushed new kernels, as the grain offering of your first ripe fruits. 15 You are to put oil on it and place frankincense on it. It is a grain offering. 16 The priest will make it smoke as a token offering, that is, some of the coarse grain and oil along with all its frankincense, as an offering made by fire to Jehovah.

• (Leviticus 23:9-21) 9 Jehovah continued to speak to Moses, saying: 10 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘When you eventually come into the land that I am giving you and you have reaped its harvest, you must bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 And he will wave the sheaf back and forth before Jehovah to gain approval for you. The priest should wave it on the day after the Sabbath. . . .  13 Its grain offering will be two tenths of an eʹphah of fine flour mixed with oil, as an offering made by fire to Jehovah, a pleasing aroma. Its drink offering will be a fourth of a hin of wine. 14 You must not eat any bread, roasted grain, or new grain until this day, until you bring the offering of your God. It is a lasting statute for all your generations wherever you dwell. 15 “‘You are to count seven sabbaths from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you bring the sheaf of the wave offering. They should be complete weeks. 16 You will count off 50 days until the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then you should present a new grain offering to Jehovah. 17 You should bring from your dwelling places two loaves as a wave offering. These should be made of two tenths of an eʹphah of fine flour. They should be baked with leaven, as first ripe fruits to Jehovah. . . . They will serve as a burnt offering to Jehovah along with the corresponding grain offering and drink offerings, as an offering made by fire, of a pleasing aroma to Jehovah. . . . They should serve as something holy to Jehovah for the priest. 21 On this day you will make a proclamation for a holy convention for yourselves. You may not do any hard work. It is a lasting statute in all your dwelling places for all your generations.

Even more curiously, I am re-reading the Iliad -- a brand new non-poetic translation that does not attempt the fake, stilted language that was never part of the original, but which is always loved by academics and scholars. There are many more points of similarity between Greek and Hebrew religion than I had noticed previously. The most common point of similarity that people point out is the fact that Jehovah finds the aroma of sacrifice pleasing and so do the Greek gods. There are other points of similarity I hadn't noticed until now. (A later post, perhaps.)

15 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

She was so touched by that commendation that she never again spoke of leaving the traveling work.

My uncle was a circuit overseer in the traveling work for many years, and more recently had only served as a temporary circuit overseer due to his age. His wife (my aunt) also received one of these letters. I would guess that about 5,000 of these letters went out worldwide, and the chances that several of them would arrive at the right time for it was clearly very good. Many circuit overseer's wives find the lifestyle very difficult.

On 11/21/2017 at 10:55 AM, JW Insider said:

If Bergen claims that such health issues are only 10% to 16% higher in JWs than the general population, I would not think this is so surprising in the time period that he tried to measure.

I just decided to listen to Rolf Furuli's video regarding the study, noticing that @Nana Fofana has provided a YouTube link. My comment on the 10 to 16% was based on the link that JTR gave, where I read the following in the abstract summary of the article written by Rolf Furuli:

• Jerry Bergman has published one book and several articles on the mental health of JW. . . . . his claim that Witnesses have  between 10 and 16% higher rate of mental illness than the non-Witness population, and that 10% of the congregation members are in need of professional help, has no basis whatsoever.

However, when I listen to the video, I see that Rolf Furuli makes a different claim. In the video Furuli says that Bergman has claimed that the rate of mental illness among JWs is 10 to 16 times higher than the non-Witness population.

If Furuli is correct about Bergman's claim as summarized in his article, then I would agree with Bergman as I stated before. However, if Furuli is correct about Bergman's claim as presented in the video, then I would not agree with Bergman. For example, if 20 out of a 1000 persons in a random collection of adults might have mental illness, Bergman would be claiming that 23 random JWs would have mental illness, if 16% higher. But, if 16 times higher, then this would mean that JWs could expect to see 320 persons with mental illness out a thousand. (I know I started with a high base number of 2%, but this was to more easily illustrate the problem with the claim.)

Just got back home. Anything happen while I was out?

7 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

The slave does not produce spiritual food, it's just that any servant that is properly motivated will do what they can to share what they can. Our Governing Body has done an excellent job in finding efficient ways to share "spiritual" food, because the ministry they have chosen to administer for us is a teaching ministry. But the illustration of the "wicked and faithful slave" that this idea is based on says nothing about spiritual food specifically. A true steward will always do what is in his power to effectively carry out his ministry.

But all of us are slaves of Christ, and all of us should learn from the same illustration, whether it is spiritual food we share, physical food, comfort, clothing, support, encouragement -- our food should be for us to do the will of our Father. But I think it's clear that the "food" includes sharing physical food, wherever such a stewardship and ministry is necessary.

• (James 1:27) 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

• (Acts 6:1) . . ., the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution.

• (1 Timothy 5:3-8) 3 Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight. 5 Now the woman who is truly a widow and left destitute has put her hope in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. . . .  8 Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.

• (Matthew 10:42) 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”

Paul made a point to show that there is no separate "body" within the "body of the congregation." People who believed this would look to men who were good teachers of spiritual things, like Paul himself, or Apollos. Paul said: all Christians were fellow servants, and that all of us carry the burdens of one another. Yet in the end, we are responsible for our own spiritual standing -- not because of specific teachings produced by others.

• (1 Corinthians 3:5-9) 5 What, then, is A·polʹlos? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. 6 I planted, A·polʹlos watered, but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. 8 Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.

• (Galatians 6:2-5) 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

• 1 Corinthians 7:22-24) . . .he that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 YOU were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever condition each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it associated with God.

I think we should take offense at the idea that the Governing Body produces spiritual food. Jesus is the food. And all of us will be taught ultimately by Jehovah.

• (John 6:45-58) 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to you, whoever believes has everlasting life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

• (1 Corinthians 3:11) 11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So far, we should remember that so many times when the Governing Body has attempted to produce food, that food has soon rotted or has become stale. But there has always been great permanent value in everything they have shared, even when they are just sharing a cup of water with another one of Christ's brothers when directing a response to material disasters around the world, or other helpful services, or rebuilding a place of worship, or sharing Bibles and Bible-based publications and videos, talks, sermons, artwork, organizing assemblies, etc. But we shouldn't shirk our own part in all this. It's important that ALL of us are faithful and discreet stewards. Otherwise, I think we have missed the point of Jesus' illustration in Matthew 24, and might sometimes just be relying on obsolete types and antitypes to avoid carrying our own load.

• (1 Peter 4:10-11) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways. 11 If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God; if anyone ministers, let him do so as depending on the strength that God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.. . .
• *** Rbi8 1 Peter 4:10 ***    Or, “house managers.” Lit., “house administrators.” Gr., oi·ko·noʹmoi; Lat., di·spen·sa·toʹres; J22(Heb.), kesoh·khenimʹ, “as stewards.”
• (1 Corinthians 12:27, 28) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation:. . . teachers; . . . helpful services; abilities to direct;. . .

When Jesus returns to ask who among us were really faithful stewards, and who were shirking our responsibilities, imagine his reaction --in light of these scriptures-- if we were to tell Jesus that we thought we were supposed to depend on a specific body of men to define what he meant by ministering and to define the types of food we shared with others.

• (Luke 12:47, 48) 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.

On 11/20/2017 at 5:03 PM, Matthew9969 said:

2 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For ^uthe trumpet will sound, and ^vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and ^wthis mortal body must put on immortality.

Paul is evidently providing a commentary on Jesus' words about the harvest, which occurs after the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.

• (Matthew 24:30, 31) 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Just as Paul spoke of this as a harvest (gathering) of the chosen ones, [sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body] Jesus also spoke of this gathering as a harvest, after the time for the growing season is complete, after the wheat no longer grow along with the weeds:

• (Matthew 13:38-43) . . .As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . .

Since the wheat and weeds are still growing together, we can see that we have not yet reached the harvest. But Jesus is speaking of the same thing: sown a physical body (growing alongside weeds in Satan's system), but a harvest time will come at the final end (synteleia) when the righteous ones will shine as "spiritual bodies" -- brightly as the sun.

And Paul ties it together again in Thessalonians:

• (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [or "at the same time"] we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Of course, this "harvest" or "gathering" is tied directly to the "manifestation" "revelation" "parousia" and "synteleia" which is also an indication that we could expect the Watchtower to someday change the two-stage parousia teaching to one that fits the context of all these verses at the same time. Of course, this wouldn't change much at all except for the vocabulary. We would still know that Christ is present for all of us, just as he promised he would be right up until the conclusion. But we would still be waiting patiently for that special visible presence/manifestation referred to in Greek as the "parousia." (This is different from the Watchtower's current teaching, of course.)

• (James 5:7, 8) 7 Be patient then, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive. 8 You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.

1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

THATS  NEW......   Can  you  explain  why  now  616   -   and  where  do  you  read  that ?

It's not new. The possibility that 616 might be correct, was already acknowledged by a person who was born between only about 15 to 30 years after the apostle John died. At such an early date, every known difference among the Bible manuscripts would have been significant, because there were so few manuscripts of the Bible books at this time, compared to later. So any differences, if not caught right away, could result in a mistake that would be with us for the next 2,000 years.

As it turns out, we don't need the "witness" of the man born as few as 15 years after the apostle John died. The very earliest known fragment of the book of Revelation also says 616, not 666. Note this from Wikipedia:

• Around 2005, a fragment from Papyrus 115, taken from the Oxyrhynchus site, was discovered at the Oxford University's Ashmolean Museum. It gave the beast's number as 616 ????. This fragment is the oldest manuscript . . . of Revelation 13 found as of 2017.^[2][3]Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, known before the P115 finding but dating to after it, has 616 written in full: ????????? ???? ??, hexakosioi deka hex (lit. "six hundred and sixteen").^[17]

 

• Fragment from Papyrus 115 (P115) of Revelation in the 66th vol. of the Oxyrhynchus series (P. Oxy. 4499).^[16] Has the number of the beast as ???, 616.

What looks like XIC in the fragment is actually Greek for "xis" which are the numerals for 6+10+600 or 616. But to show that this was no simple copyist error, the verse also spells out the word for 616 in the way that we spell it out in English as "six-hundred sixteen" (oder auf Deutsch "sechshundert sechzehn"). In the text of the manuscript in Greek this is spelled out as "hexakosioi deka hex" as already noted above. Irenaeus, the man born as few as 15 years after John, preferred 666 to 616, but provides the evidence that he already saw the number 616 in manuscripts in the same generation as the apostle John. Irenaeus said:

• Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), - I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] - Adv. haer. 5.30

The Bible manuscript (P115) is not the only manuscript in which the 616 is found. Wikipedia also says:

• Although Irenaeus (2nd century AD) affirmed the number to be 666 . . . theologians have doubts about the traditional reading^[13] because of the appearance of the figure 616 in the Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C; Paris - one of the four great uncial codices), as well as in the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed. Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and in an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybeare, 1907). Irenaeus knew about the 616 reading, but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3). In the 380s, correcting the existing Latin-language version of the New Testament (commonly referred to as the Vetus Latina), Jerome retained "666".^[14][15]  

The P115 mss is probably from 225 C.E. to 250 C.E.  Here, below, is how "666" was written in the Codex Vaticanus (between 350 and 400 C.E.):

So either version has the potential to be correct. But the earliest evidence we have is for 616, not 666. Also we can think about whether it was more likely that a mnemonic number like 666 would more likely turn into a non-mnemonic 616 or would it be more likely that a non-mnemonic would be retained as a mnemonic. In the study of the history of textual changes, the difficult is simplified more often than the simple is made more difficult.

In this case, however, there is an even better explanation as to why both 666 and 616 were both known at such an early date in the history of the manuscripts of Revelation. But that's another story, that is not necessary for this discussion.

I think the number was actually 616, not 666. Seriously.

24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What adds to the chill is that the Russian Orthodox translation also says Jehovah in about 9 places, per Anton Chivchalov.

True (for the Russian Synodal Bible). And the Makarios Bible uses the Divine Name nearly 6,000 times. (OT only, of course.)

On 11/18/2017 at 6:29 PM, Bible Speaks said:

900 Attened  his funeral.

I found spiritual value in this little piece of information just quoted: 900 attended his funeral. I haven't taken the time to try to verify it, but it's still a piece of information that makes sense to me and whether the number is 100% accurate, I think it very likely reflects the truth. And it makes me feel just a bit better about the way we can handle such tragedies.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

The curious use of the word "Tartarus" and the rich man and Lazarus parable being other prime examples of this (to me).

I think at least a part of the explanation is that many literal readers of the Bible are unable to grasp the "poetry" and symbolism of the Bible. Poetry (often through lyrics) once captured the imagination of many readers and hearers of the Bible and almost every other story and history that was handed down from generation to generation. Poetry puts the mind of the hearer in a state that was ready to immediately see meaning in ideas that were not necessarily true in a literal way.

Jesus (and James) more often taught with the symbolism of rural life. (i.e., sheep, goats, farms, fields, grain, harvest, weeds, trees, fruit, rain, sun, rocks.) Paul more often used the symbols of urban, city life, and rarely used the pastoral symbols Jesus used. These symbols seem so natural to their methods of teaching.

There was also the ability to use symbols from Jewish (or even Greek/Roman) literature and folklore that was not necessarily true in a total literal sense but which added depth and meaning to the Christian teachings. Satan as a dragon was one of these. Ideas about the Greek Tartarus, and perhaps even the Greek Hades, on occasion, could make a point through analogy. Reference to books like Enoch, The Assumption of Moses, "Jannes and Jambres," etc.,  would more easily adapt to the poetic mind than the literalist, fundamentalist mind. Perhaps this applies:

• (1 Corinthians 2:14-16) 14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

5 hours ago, Anna said:

20 What is the lesson for us?

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide." You have included some bigger questions about timing and survival and obedience, and those are worth discussing. However, the logic of the two paragraphs indicates nothing about "hiding" in any modern-day fulfillment of Isaiah 26:20. The point was only that, in this past example, survival depended on obedience to "commands" and the same will be true in the near future.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Nice conclusion. But is it  not "logical" to have such immature thinking among JW members? And how would "sounds" if Bethel image would not have that little "possibility" to making people who get in, to be better person after they go out of Bethel? :))

I wasn't saying it couldn't happen that a person would come out better after leaving Bethel. (I am exactly 18.3% better than I was.) Also, a person who has a specific issue to work on, if he takes advantage of the new circumstances at Bethel and learns from the experiences, can probably accomplish his goal, or overcome his issue. I was concerned about the idea that being in a certain place will impose some kind of predetermined effect on that person. 

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I mean, some viewpoints are too stupid to countenance.

Some would think, that by purposefully misunderstanding the summary of the study JTR quoted, that you are setting up your own sidekick routine, with the punchline prepared in the part I just requoted.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This study shows that JWs have about a THIRD of the mental illness rate of the general population, and I would suspect that that would equate to about a THIRD of the suicides of the general population.    Just a guess ... NO MORE.

I think that you are right in that the purpose of this study by Furuli was intended to show that JWs have only a third the mental illness based on the rate of the general population, and extrapolating, only approximately only a third of the suicide rate of the generation population. From what I know about Furuli, however, I wouldn't trust his numbers in the slightest. Also, Norway has privacy laws and practices that would only allow a health care professional to access data about medications and psychological treatment. Furuli is not a health care professional. If Bergen claims that such health issues are only 10% to 16% higher in JWs than the general population, I would not think this is so surprising in the time period that he tried to measure. Mental illness is more of a stigma among those who place a lower value on secular education. Those who place a higher value on secular education begin to understand that mental illness should carry no more stigma than intestinal illness. If there is a stigma, then it supposedly reflects badly on the reputation of the organization to admit it and therefore many JWs have gone untreated. I dare say that most of us are aware of such cases.

18 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@JW Insider can top your experience any day with one he knows about. I half fear that he will.

I know of only about 7 suicides that provide some kind of instruction or lesson, in some way:

• (Judges 9:54) He [Abimelech] quickly called the attendant bearing his weapons and said to him: “Draw your sword and put me to death, so that they may not say about me, ‘A woman killed him.’” So his attendant ran him through, and he died.

• (Judges 16:30) Samson called out: “Let me die with the Phi·lisʹtines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and the house fell on the lords and all the people in it. So he killed more at his death than he had killed during his life.

• (1 Samuel 31:4) Then Saul said to his armor-bearer: “Draw your sword and run me through with it, so that these uncircumcised men may not come and run me through and deal ruthlessly with me.” But his armor-bearer was unwilling, because he was very much afraid. So Saul took the sword and fell on it.

• (1 Samuel 31:5) When his armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his own sword and died with him.

• (2 Samuel 17:23) When A·hithʹo·phel saw that his advice had not been acted on, he saddled a donkey and went to his house in his hometown. After he gave instructions to his household, he hanged himself. . . .

• (1 Kings 16:18) When Zimʹri saw that the city had been captured, he went into the fortified tower of the king’s house and burned the house down over himself, and he died.

• (Acts 1:18) This very man, therefore, purchased a field with the wages for unrighteousness, and falling headfirst, his body burst open and all his insides spilled out.  (Matthew 27:5) . . .Then he went off and hanged himself.

18 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Just curious and please forgive me if this is a morbid question to some, did anyone ever commit suicide while working at Bethel?

I'm not sure what lesson could be learned from knowing. I knew about two persons who committed suicide while I was there and a couple other suicides just before and after. The long-time factory overseer, Brother Wheelock, was the most well-known. I have not tried to track whether there were others, or even whether the suicide mentioned in the original post is true.

However, even if rates had been higher than usual, and I don't know that they were, it would not mean that we have a dangerous spiritual paradise as @Srecko Sostar posited. Brother Couch once suggested that too many congregations were purposely sending their emotionally disturbed young brothers in the hopes that Bethel would cure them.  I have heard an elder recommend that we encourage a young brother who was considered to be homosexual to apply to Bethel because, supposedly, he would be "cured" just by being that close to the center of Jehovah's holy spirit. I cringed, but said that Bethel was not likely the right environment for such a brother.

I see patriotism to the United States couched in semi-religious language. For most people this is not a bad thing. For many Christians it is a misplaced patriotism, because Christians --in solidarity with other Christians scattered throughout the world--do not identify with a single earthly nation:

• (James 1:1) 1 James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about:. . .

• (James 1:26, 27) . . .. 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

• (Psalm 39:11, 12) . . .Surely every earthling man is an exhalation. Seʹlah. 12 Do hear my prayer, O Jehovah, . . .  For I am but an alien resident with you, A settler the same as all my forefathers.

• (Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them.

• (1 Peter 1:1) 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the temporary residents scattered about in Ponʹtus, Ga·laʹti·a, Cap·pa·doʹci·a, Asia, and Bi·thynʹi·a, to the ones chosen

• (1 Peter 2:11, 12) 11 Beloved, I exhort YOU as aliens and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which are the very ones that carry on a conflict against the soul. 12 Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection.

In spite of all that, Fred Franz, at Bethel, from around 1976 to 1979, would make sure we had the American standard Thanksgiving meal (turkey, stuffing, gravy, cranberries, pumpkin pie) on the exact day of Thanksgiving, and he would make a point of saying that while the United States of America is celebrating its Thanksgiving, we have even more reasons to celebrate. I think most of us thought about it as a kind of inside joke that only Fred Franz would try to get away with, and which might stumble those on the outside if they knew about it. Fred Franz was known for saying things specifically to be provocative or make others uncomfortable. But this could also have been a trial balloon for a change, who knows?

I just got off the plane (from Vancouver) and saw the above when my wi-fi came back on.

It's a fake story, of course. You can still see the picture as it was used in a newspaper article about 2 years ago.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/1/donald-trump-touts-lifestyle-without-alcohol-drugs/

The earliest appearance of the picture that I found is from December 1, 2015, when Trump was campaigning in New Hampshire. Someone might have thought that the girl looked Vietnamese, so the picture was used again to create "news" about his visit to Hanoi.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Family members decide according to their conscience the extent to which they will continue family discourse"

We're back to that problem again of trying to use the idea of conscience in a court of law as an obfuscation. You are right that very few Witnesses leave anything up to conscience. It's "spiritual" peer pressure to conform, where not conforming can result in anything from being looked down upon by peers, or a loss of privileges all the way up to being disfellowshipped yourself. I don't have a good solution, but I have seen the type of shunning of young family members that just seems childish on the part of the supposedly mature Witnesses who have to conform to the rule. 

I note that we no longer claim in court that corporeal punishment of minors is acceptable, and yet it obviously has Biblical precedent. I wonder if there's a way we would begin to conform to more modern norms of conduct, in obedience to the superior authorities in shunning cases, too.

17 hours ago, Michael Krewson said:

Texas Church Shooter Was Antifa Member Who Vowed To Start Civil War

 

The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.

Wilson County Commissioner Albert Gamez Jr said that at least 27 people have been killed in the shooting, according to reports by the CNN and the BBC, with the confirmed death toll expected to climb in the coming hours.

Witnesses report they saw Devin Kelley walk into the Baptist Church in the small town 30 miles from San Antonio at 11:30am local time Sunday, according to KSAT-12.

Devin Kelley, who killed at least 27 people and injured many more, was one of two shooters in the church, according to eyewitnesses, who also report Kelley carried an Antifa flag and told the churchgoers “this is a communist revolution” before unloading on the congregation, reloading several times.

I just did a quick search on this and the first thing that came up was a video:

After listening to the video I'm convinced that this person at "The Patriotic Beast" -- i.e., the person who made the video and claimed that he was the one who discovered the Antifa connection -- is lying through his teeth. Doesn't mean this guy isn't Antifa, but I doubt it seriously. The way this man at TPB manipulated the data and lied about it, so that he could claim "you heard it hear first," makes me think that almost everyone else who makes or focuses on this claim is also being disingenuous -- going for the obvious attempt to get this idea out there early to blunt the post-Trumpian reputational trends that sully the right wing of his party.