Arauna

When the bible indicates that the merchants will cry when all the bedfellows of false religion makes her naked - I guess all the billionaires and stock market whizes  will start crying - and there are a few digital moguls in the mix. Lol.  

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are

We remain ready - whatever happens. But Jehovah gives us enough information to watch the world around us and understand.  JWs understood who Babylon the Great was a long time ago and got heated up when certain events happened....... at least they stood on the tower and watched for any sign....they kept on the watch...

I personally have no problem with those who misinterpreted signs before.....no matter how silly...... they remained focussed on serving Jehovah and kept on the watch....... they loved jehovah. That is all that Jehovah sees.  Wicked people judge - let them judge - just go on undeterred doing the right things.

I look at world events now and in my mind's eye I say : thank you jehovah for allowing me to see how things MAY unfold.  If I die before these come to fruition, I can say that I have seen the events happen in my minds eye -  I believed every word in the bible by looking for that which it says may occur.... I stay focussed......to remain ready.

The first thing I will ask when I get a resurrection most probably will be: How did it really happen!.....

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

hard to get any sensible new light from the GB.

They are preparing us for Armageddon.  They do not want to cry wolf....... they are very careful now.... the reason being because we are close to world events suddenly turning seriously bad....... too many to mention. To cry wolf at the wrong time will not be in interest of the sheep.

They are right in doing this because when things occur we will recognize the signs. They have showed us from the bible the signs to expect - we know.  We need no special interpretations any longer like way back in the past. 

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

That is why Jesus told his disciples in advance what would happen, for example about his death. At that moment they could not believe what he told them. But after his resurrection they remembered that Jesus had many times already told them that this would happen.

Very good point m'dear.

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

understand that it is hard to believe new things,

I know I sound like a nutcase sometimes....... but I watch the world closely..... to see where things are leading...... and I see things going on in the world (what world leaders are planning) that is absolutely beyond logical comprehension......and they are moving and pushing the agendas fast.......things are changing fast. 

The world we knew a decade ago is fast dissipating. The air we breathe is totally inspired by satan.  

It us time now to keep close to Jehovah, read the bible, keep up the preaching and associate with those who love jehovah.

Now it is much easier than 40 years ago when my daughter had her surgery!  Thanks to the excellent doctors who found a way to do it! 

19 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

claims Adam and Jesus were equal,

You left out this:  BEFORE Adam sinned.  

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There are dozens of other similarities, along with serious and important differences.

Yea, I am waiting for them to come to the meeting with some gold trimming on their long clothes swinging the incense holders, censer, carrying icons, kissing the cross in a laborate ceremony ..... yes .... sounds about the same....congregants kneeling on stools... lol.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

money has been foolishly squandered in the “making of many books

Assumptions and accusations. I bet, even if they published the finances,  you would be combing through it for hours to prove that ten cents have been misspent!

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons

I have not, but Paul and Peter raised people from the dead because they received the same Holy spirit as jesus did and many of early anointed had special gifts from God to help with establishment of new congregations.

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had. 

I agree with the above. But I did not say what you say above.

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned.

I said the above. 

1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Because, as word "Christendom"

Christen-dom.  These people have ruled in the past  (the dom stands for 'domain' . They have gone to war - think of crusades, inquisition, Cromwell's puritan civil war, ...too many to mention. This is why the word has a bad connotation.

14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human

You really know how to pump things up in total unreality.

Overreaction (over the top accusation) is not one of the fruit ages of Jehovah's spirit

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

would be wrong, then, with just admitting that elders also come closest to fitting the role that nearly

You seem to not ever have belonged to a church.  I went to catholic, protestant and evangelical churches in my childhood. My grandmother and mother was catholic, father protestant and I attended church with neighbours at evangelical. 

There is no way one can compare our elders with the hierarchy of the catholic church, the pomp and ceremony, the ritual, and most of all the ' costumes' and the liturgy.... as well as all the titles. One pays money for most services rendered.

In evangelical the priest often sang solo and then presided  over the "receiving of the holy spirit"...the speaking of tongues., healing etc.  I saw people falling over with "spirit"  as a youngster and after a few times did not ever go back. I loved the singing though. Choir singing and pageants, game nights etc at church.

Protestant - the Dutch reformed church is very stoic with a minister which is very stoic.  The church liturgy also has words that are repeated every week with the same minister leading the church members  in the service. While catholic confessions are weekly, in the protestant church the minister is there as a confidant and gives spiritual advice only when requested. He offers classes for catechism.

This the only common denominator JWs  have with all these churches:  the aspect of confidentiality  and advice albeit not in the same format. We cannot call JWs clergy except when referring to a law-  which refers to this single service when offered by a religious org.

4 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

It uses the illustration of the thief to indicate we do not know the day  -this will be a surprise.

However, in Noah's day they saw him building the ark .  Laughed at him when he preached to them about the flood.  There were visible signs that something was going to happen. ..... they went on with their eating, drinking, marrying .... with normal life until the day came. Jesus co pares the perousia with this.

He also compares it to a pregnant woman.   This indicates one sees the sign of the pregnancy but the day one does not know of the actual birth. The bigger the stomach gets the closer one knows it is. So one knows the inevitable is here but jne still does not know the hour.

Then there is the fig tree .... when you see the flowers one knows the fruits will be coming.... one sees them growing and have an idea they will ripen soon.

The bible has many if these illustrations- - to deny their implications is basically putting your own interpretation on the bible.  They are clear and understandable. 

15 hours ago, Anna said:

How else could they claim clergy privilege unless they applied the worldly definition (legal definition) to the elders?

It may seem like a double standard but it is not.  In our congregations we do not call our elders "father"  leader or such other titles /designations the clergy have traditionally called themselves.... we do not..... BUT we do confide in the elders and in this they have a similar FUNCTion regarding confessions - which the law is about.  So by their function, not title, they qualify as clergy under secular law.

Anna - this is not a comment on your comment. Just a general thought.

9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam?

similar and equal are two very different things. 

Actually Jesus was more than equal... if you want to get technical.  Jehovah could have sent another angel  but he did not because he sent the best he had - his first created son.  (His firstborn).

However when on earth - he was just a man in flesh like Adam. He forfeited his position in heaven and received an earthly body like Adam.  He put his soul in death like Adam - so his sacrifice / price was a perfect soul  for an imperfect soul.....  a ransom.  

He was subject to the same conditions (pain and suffering)  imperfect Adam and the whole of mankind experienced and yet maintained perfect loyalty to God.  He was subject to death, injury, hunger, pain, betrayal etc - As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned. Adam started out perfect like Jesus. Jesus proved that  perfect Adam could have remained faithful to God even when tested.

13 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Out of topic, but just for fun.

Says you!   I was comparing current worldly system and Jehovahs true justice system  in future.  

15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

quote contradict itself.

No - I spoke of current secular system we all live under and future justice of God. 

I do not know if you are deliberately obtuse or not..... but I leave it at that.....

19 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

Yes! In a WORDLY court of law!   ..... in the secular world we live in..... 

On 1/11/2020 at 11:09 PM, Kosonen said:

A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city".

Yes- and the name of the city is even more important.  As I explained to you earlier .  It applies to the time when Babylon was a city state..... after the flood.

It applies to a time when half the world turned against the ONE religion of jehovah god after the flood and refused to spread out and obey Him. Instead they built a tower in opposition to Jehovah with false gods and brought religion and rulership together in a priest-king.

Babylon means confusion....... because jehovah confused their languages and forced them to obey him. People did spread out and took their false religion with them where it proliferated in many forms.

Babylon was a great city.......and her influence regarding religion in opposition to jehovah is still influencing all people on earth in all the false religions which promote teachings which do not honour Jehovah. Now she is called Babylon " the Great".  The great confusion. 

Important to note: Cities in ancient Babylon were city-states.  Religion/superstition ruled and the kings were also high priests of the religion, the servant of the main God of the city. A mixing of religion and politics.

As I explained to you earlier - a conglomerate of governments in the world today have realized that different religions cause wars and division (originally caused by the spreading out of people from Babylon).. This is why there are similar features in the ancient towers and practices all over the world in religion. 

At present, the many diverse and even militant religions are causing much devision in the world.  So the UN and some religions  are now working on one world religion with a new set of morals and only one God will be unveiled..... how far they will get I cannot tell...... but you are right when you say the harlot will ride the red beast..... UN and its supporters. 

The harlot (false religions) have been the force behind governments for millenia BUT you may be right...... riding the beast means religion will take the initiative and steer the direction the world is going.

Watch 2020 because this is the beginning efforts of a world religion.   Religion is taking the initiative at present and although they are facing sex abuse charges etc...... they are recreating their image to keep the worship of the world focussed on them.  Soon she may be riding the beast as a queen- pushing UN agenda.  Other religions will have no place in this world.

The prophecies in Revelation come into fulfillment in the "day of jehovah"  when events lead up to a world-wide Armageddon.  So most of the events we look out for is not based just in one country or a city in one country but a worldwide phenomenon.  Rev 1;10

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

JWs break the law of the land when it suits them

There is no way you can "suit yourself" in a secular  court of law - you fight to win....... to expect otherwise is unjust.  If you lose while innocent and obeying God (like brothers in Russia) one serves the penalty and then try to appeal within the secular law system they have created.

4jah2me, if your sense of justice is still outraged :  I understand..but do not forget, even if a guilty person gets away with something like murder, rape, etc. Jehovah sees everything and he will compensate in future when His system arrives - in the end there will be true justice for all.

Do you believe that God really exists and there is a future where he will compensate?   .... The 1000 years is called a day of judgment is it not?  This world is not all there is....

The GB will be judged as individuals and how they executed their responsibilities given to them. If you really believe God exists - then rest assured no-one will get away with something serious...  The elders too.  God is not partial. 

I have seen elders handle their responsibilities in good way.... and bad.  If their brand of justice is flawed, I have seen elders fall out or be removed...  but jehovah is a God of mercy...... he always gives people time to change or improve..........or repent....... no matter what their sin was.

In a secular court - we accept judgment - even if a mistake was made. We accept that human judgment is not perfect and then try to fight the verdict through legal channels. Many people on death row have been innocent.

In the congregation people's spiritual lives are at stake.... I can speak from experience..... I come across here as hard ... but I have been in truth since I was 21 - the first in my family.  The knocks I got from imperfect brothers and sisters in this time  did affect me....especially when I was young, stupid and fragile. .. but in the end it strengthened me and gave me "endurance". 

I stuck to jehovah (made Him my joy) and cultivated humility. I always tried to understand imperfection and only trust jehovah and stick to him..... this helped me to endure and grow in understanding.

This it is the crux of the matter...... trust that jehovah is the great compensator.  He is the only and absolute provider of true justice. He is righteous.

I read a lot of news .... when I read of the growing injustices against Christian's in north Africa...... the murders, rapes etc.  I just want to literally cry...... in this world run by satan behind the scenes, there is no true justice. 

JUSTICE really depends what kind of government is in power ..... and how corrupt it is or not.    We all will learn this soon when governments turn on religion.... we will see how just governments really are.  The bible does not say for nothing that those who accept Jesus' randsom will be persecuted before Armageddon. 

The law is usually the instrument by which they persecute people when the society is reasonably civil.  When society is in chaos, you are just executed or kangaroo court prevails.

Be glad you are living in a first world country - although things are deteriorating fast.  I cry for the young children being raped in Africa ...... all the time.... it is endemic....  law and order is only for those in power..... not the victims.

Jehovah loves the lowly, the victims..... and they do get a measure of comfort from Him in this world....... the full healing for them will only come in the new system.. ...but they must draw close to jehovah now to get this comfort.  Some do not appreciate this offer from jehovah..... and throw the opportunities away.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to earth........ Nope

 Was he flest like Adam when ön Earth? 

16 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Mankind could eat this fruit and live forever, Adam and Eve were free to eat it while they lived in the Garden, in fact they may have eaten it regularly. Even after

Interesting thought: like the tree of good and bad , I was sure it was symbolic...... because there is no way jehovah would make our everlasting lives depend on a literal tree as we need obedience to him for e everlasting life..... 

19 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Good scripture: jesus paid the randsom with eye for eye, ........it was an exact equal sacrifice... Jehovah knows how to do anything with equal justice and righteousness. 

54 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. 

So when Jesus was on earth in which ways was he not similar to Adam.

2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam. 

You did not read hebrews 2 : 17 which clearly states that he had to become similar to his brothers in all respects..... to provide a "propitiatory" sacrifice. He had to suffer like them and give his soul in death like them..... if jesus did not really die - the randsom sacrifice was not really paid and there is no resurrection.  Read 1 cor 15 - the chapter.

22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

and dictators et al. 

I wish people knew what a dictator is.  When they live under one they will not use the word so freely. People call jehovah a dictator as well because he dares to tell them what is right and wrong!

On 1/13/2020 at 9:39 PM, Shiwiii said:

unsubstantiated

Jesus did create Adam and was the first creation of jehovah. However he did not have immortality. He received immortality from jehovah at his resurrection.

When he was on earth he was in flesh completely equal to Adam. He was a perfect human being in flesh and did not have an immortal soul.

1 cor 15:45  " it is written: the first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam life-giving spirit.

 Here it calls Jesus the last Adam and indicates he was raised up as a spirit.  While on earth he was equivalent to Adam but received immortality afterward. The rest of the chapter discusses resurrection to heavenly life.

Hebrews 2 : 17 "  I struggled for a long time to get this verse copied. My fingers and iPad did not comply. Please read this verse in any translation...... it proves the point.

When we read Matthew 13: 24 onwards (the illustration of the weeds and the wheat) we can see what happened to start the Christian part of Babylon the Great.

Satan sowed wicked seeds amongst the wheat.  People in the congregation contaminated the congregation with wicked philosophies and practices. Many of these ideas came in from the Greek and Roman philosophies (which were contaminated by ancient Babylonian ideas).

The apostles held these pagan and wicked influences back (but after apostle John died -about 100 CE - ) these pagan ideas later became entrenched and even  later institutionalized  in the powerful churches. 

Today most witnesses give up their memberships in other religions - be it Hindu, Islam, christendom etc. They get out of Babylon the Great as individuals.  They are then known as Witnesses of Jehovah. They also do not participate or take sides in any political parties, political issues or any form of nationalistic events. We do not pay homage to national symbols/national days or go to war.  These are practices which are an identifying part of Babylon the Great 's harlotry...... the harlotry with the political systems (kings) of the world. Rev 17: 1-3.

Since the beasts in Daniel depict four succeeding world powers (2 are identified in Daniel 8 as Medea-Persia and Greece)  the beast in Revelation 13 depicts the world political system.  The beast in Rev 13 has all the combined features of the 4 beasts (empires) mentioned in Daniel 7 & 8. 

So how does this fit in with Babylon the Great?  Religion which rides (influences) the beast (UN and conglomerate) or commits fornication with the kings of the earth,  is doomed.  If one gets the mark of the beast with seven heads or the image of the beast you will be a spiritual harlot.  There are only two sides:  loyalty to the future kingdom government of jehovah God OR  loyalty by your actions of mind and hand (slaves were marked on the head or hand)  to earthly governments.

JWs believe that only the future government of God can solve all of the world's problems and therefore believe that only this government can bring true peace and security to the globe.  Other religions still put faith in humans governments to keep peace and security and will believe the human governments when they say they have achieved "peace and security" before the start of Armageddon.

1 tess 5: Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.  3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.  4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves,  

On 1/12/2020 at 3:10 PM, Kosonen said:

All those aspects fit New York. 

Since we are dealing with a world political system, a worldwide religious and financial  system which is not according to gods wish for mankind - the bible indicates all three will be destroyed at Armageddon-  we must be careful to not attribute regional fulfillments to these proohecies.   It is events that will happen on global scale because satan is the ruler of the entire globe. He is behind all false religion, all bad and oppressive human governments and the financial system. 

46 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

14 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

IT ISN'T MEANT TO BE FIXED BY HUMANS, IT IS THE DEVIL'S WORLD. ONLY GOD THROUGH CHRIST CAN AND WILL FIX IT.

We cannot fix the world (as you say)  but we can volunteer to help and support our brothers under duress.  This is what Jehovahs org does. Rarely do other organizations manage to help under such severe circumstances .

I recall in Mozambique disaster flooding about 20 years ago, the world watched and sent no help.  A week later when south Africans arrived they found JW volunteer doctors already there and services running in full force - also volunteers. JWs in south Africa had sent blankets and food, water, etc. Jws had problems getting landing rights for their planes but they were there before anyone else. They used chartered planes.  (Since then there has been a second flood.)

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

How you try to deceive. 

Opposers are quick to critisize JWs  as TH's example clearly illustrated.  They complained that we did not help all.... but our work is done by unpaid volunteers.

I can mention that Hillary Clinton's foundation received tons of money too!.... and they went there in person and threw their weight around (did not listen to local leaders) and squandered the money on things which they themselves decided were important and in the end it helped no-one. There is also nothing in Haiti to show on what they had accomplished.... but anything written negatively  in the press about where their donated  money went to?  Hillary got sterling coverage out of it... until later when no-one was interested about what really happened! 

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Once again you are comparing the GB and JWs to 'the world', that 'wicked world of mankind'.

Yes- we are not allowed to mention anything like this in  in our defence. Or compare our reasonably successful attempts to that of the other sectors in the world, where we are doing a reasonably good job under difficult circumstances. 

One can compare your reasoning to a court where only accusers are allowed to come forward but no defence lawyers allowed.  It is your "rule" that we may not bring up mitigating circumstances or compare our success to failed efforts in the world. 

Who are you to make the rules for what is allowed as a defence argument?  You obviously have made this rule for yourself - not to accept any mitigating circumstances or comparisons. Because we claim to do Jehovahs work, your private rules stipulate that we have to be perfect.  Anything less than perfect is not accepted by you. Your extremely high standard of righteousness must apply in all circumstances - I bet you live up to all of your own rules in private life.  Lol.

Now that to me is  hypocricy when you do not accept we are normal people who can err and make mistakes and only expect standards from us which are above what is normal.  When we show that we do well compared to others - then you come up with the rule that we cannot compare ourselves to the wicked world! Lol...  the truth is, we do manage do get some things right compared to other religious institutions and the "world".