Witness

Incredible. I wonder what its like to be that self-assured before God and Christ. 1 Cor 10:12

You did it just fine. It was simple, wasn't it. We all have access to the JW website, including you. I honestly don't have the foggiest idea how the doctrine of the trinity got involved, because I don't read all that you carry on about. I stated my case using scriptures against WT's doctrine that 144,000 will not step foot on the earth in the Kingdom of God. We have all stated our case, including you.

I have brought out scripture after scripture. If that is not enough to prove the point, then you are blind.

I am not interested in the doctrine of men. I am interested in the scriptural harmony of truth.

The early tabernacle/tent housed God's spirit. In that sense, He resided among the people. The "living stones" also "house" God's spirit. They become the dwelling of God. 1 Cor 3:16,17- “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? f anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.” We know God's spirit is not locked in one place such as a literal heaven, but can be everywhere. 1 Chron 17:5-6 "I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought Israel up out of Egypt to this day. I have moved from one tent site to another, from one dwelling place to another. 6 Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their leaders whom I commanded to shepherd my people, “Why have you not built me a house of cedar?”’ The WT teaches that the 144,000 ruling "over" a people on earth requires being seated above them....literally. Christ spiritually does "rule" over his anointed body members, as the head of the body. Yet, it is one spirit that flows through those members. They are "one" in spirit. “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:20-23 God will reside with His children on earth through the dwelling of His spirit - through the Body of Christ/Temple of "stones" - "144,000" “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God himself will be with them and be their God” Rev 21:3

How can you profane a date?

I trusted my father. Everyone in my town trusted my father and there was nothing wrong in doing that. The scriptures point to a certain type of man we shouldn’t trust - the arrogant ones, those who love their riches and the organization those riches produced. We don't trust those who put their organization before God. It is these men among “Jacob”, that we are not to trust. Isaiah, chapter 2

In Rev 5:10, the verb “epi” commonly translated as “over” by the WT, supports their doctrine that the 144,000 will be found ruling over the earth, from “heaven”. If it was translated as “on” the earth, it would blow their doctrine to pieces. Scriptures support the use of “on” for Rev 5:10, since God’s word declares the anointed BRIDE “coming down from heaven” with Jesus Christ. The Temple of God is not a fixed place. It is like a “tabernacle”; mobile, built with “living stones”. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17 “New Jerusalem” is not a fixed place in heaven. If it was, we wouldn’t find it coming to earth, “prepared as a bride for her husband”. “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1-3 “After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle (tent) of the covenant law—and it was opened.” Rev 15:5 “This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” Heb 8:10 The priests cannot teach God’s laws to His people, if they are stuck in heaven. “And that you may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD has spoken to them by the hand of Moses.” Lev 10:11 “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.” Mal 2:7 Can WT’s literal 144,000 priests remain in heaven and teach God’s laws to the people on earth? That would take a huge bullhorn that each one must keep in a drawer of their literal green throne. Maybe cell phones will still be in use. What the WT concocts ridicules God's Word. “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21 The called, chosen and faithful "144,000", ARE the Bride of Christ, who will be found on the earth with Jesus. But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels (messengers) of God worship Him.” Heb 1:6 Jacob's Ladder - http://jacobsladder-obadiah.blogspot.com/

I don't think they have rejected their own version at all. We each have had our own experience in the organization, our own “version” of WT’s truth. The example of 1975 is a good one. For some JWs, this prediction was taken as a grain of salt, others responded as if a house was on fire. The critical view portrayed by those on the outside, is in relation to what they experienced while on the inside; however, once outside, their freedom to explore the entire dynamics the organization is built upon, proves to them that they made the right choice to leave. And, they are motivated to tell those on the inside what they have found.

In the “generation” teaching, how many times did the sun struggle to rise beyond the horizon, only to drop back below it? JWs were left in the dark about the meaning of “this generation”. With the many prophetic dates of Armageddon, dawn never did arrive. “But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble.” Prov 4:18,19 As long as God's people obeyed His direction, there was never a need for adjustment. The true prophets sent by God, gave a reliable message. Amos 3:7 - "Indeed, the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his counsel to His servants the prophets." Many pastors/teachers use the Bible to verify their beliefs. Do they have Holy Spirit? Do the WT leaders have Holy Spirit? To say failed teachings shouldn't disturb us is a gloss-over of the reality at hand. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand." Matt 24:23-25

I just recently ran across this family's music within the last few days! They are so happy working together, doing what they all love.

This is interesting. I didn't realize it is found in the WT's Kingdom Interlinear!

I often refer to their own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, since many times their translation on the right is in favor of their doctrine.

Thank you. "honorable titles for important people" - the meaning of "faithful and discreet slave" has become very important to JWs. Without them, who would supply them, "food at the proper time"? "recognized for their contributions and the like." - "We also need to appreciate Jehovah’s provision of “the faithful and discreet slave,” the body of spirit-anointed Christians through whom he provides spiritual food for the household of faith. (Matt. 24:45)" be study 22 pp. 153-156 - "These Benefactors are the types to take a lead among the people" - "They recognize, however, that Christ is using a small group of anointed Christian men as a Governing Body to lead and direct his disciples on earth."w10 9/15 pp. 25-29 - "it should not be confused those among the Christ, to mimic as if they are and or align themselves with world rulers." The GB are entrenched in politics, they practice the opposite of Jesus taught. He never said to his followers to use the system to gain selfish advantage to promote their empire. No, these men are not "among the Christ". I'm sorry to say, that these blind men would not consider you as such, as well. The scripture is a perfect application of the dual rulership in the WT.

Perhaps so, in a fleshly way! In its simplest form, I understand WT’s ideology on “organization” as two-fold. Both the “earthly” (in the form of the WT) and the “heavenly” where the anointed are, with both systems reflecting each other. Yet, on the earth, the elders are the “princes” and apparently the priests. In a literal one-place heaven, the anointed are the kings/priests. I see them mirroring each other in a sense, with God and Jesus supposedly over all. There is little to none information, especially recently, of the anointed as God’s temple. That would detract from their doctrine that the earthly organization is a facet of God’s encompassing organization. The word “temple” and its spiritual meaning escapes the minds of JWs. JWs are now being told that they are part of that temple; especially helpful in this, is their standing doctrine of the “great crowd” with every JW as part of that. (Rev 7:9,10,13-15) When the scriptures speak of the 144,000 sitting on thrones, I view it as their literal understanding of what it must be like; well structured according to our earthly terms. This is from the minds of earthly men, not from spiritual men. “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor 2:14 Heaven cannot be defined as one place. It is a spiritual existence. When Jesus was resurrected, he appeared and disappeared among his disciples, before he “ascended” or rose to that spiritual existence, until the time of the end when he will again, be seen on the earth. Under the New Covenant, this is no different than what his angel servants/members of his body – his Bride – will experience in the Kingdom. They have within them a spirit life, and their humanly life. “Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 The members of the new creation are both this spiritual state of “heaven” and of the fleshly state of “earth”. They are the firstborn of “righteous” children in God’s Kingdom, and the first after Christ, to inherit the earth. Ps 37:11 They are patterned after Christ, not Adam. 2 Pet 3:13,14; 1:4 Those of the “second resurrection” also will receive their inheritance of the earth. "sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is* from heaven. 48 Like the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; like the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven." 1 Cor 15:4-49 This describes the new “heaven” and the new “earth”. Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1,5 The priests with Christ will “hear” God’s word, and together will relay it to all of His children, who will be resurrected onto the earth. (Mal 2:7)

So glad you keep tabs on me. I didn't realize it has been 33 times! Who keeps tabs on you?

Exactly. A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. Luke 22:24-27 This is the pattern the Watchtower GB and elders, follow. They have ignored, denied the words of Christ.

They already have denied Jesus "three times", since they deny the anointed members of his Body. If the members are silenced, so is the Head. A working body requires the mobility of all of its members. Jesus expects his members to work in the capacity God gave them. (1 Cor chapter 12) He expects them to listen to him and not men who appear to be equal, but are in fact, proving their hate for those in Christ; thus showing no respect for their head, Jesus Christ. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous. 1 John 3:10,11 Murder these days, is called disfellowshipping; a hypocritical act of "love". Rev 13:11,12,15 The GB has created a guillotine machine of rules where any who reject them are easily "killed" by their army of henchmen. Nowhere in Jesus' words, does it say that one member of his body has the ability to cut off the other from his own body. That would be God's job. With the power bestowed on them by the GB, their henchman fully apply their power to "kill" God's priesthood/"living stones. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17 “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. Dan 8:25

Yes, they were, and it didn't end when Jesus fulfilled the law. God made an everlasting covenant with this priesthood. For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ” "And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ” Jer 33:19-22 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” 7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet 2 The ONLY time the priesthood has not been recognized in the capacity they are to hold under God's covenant with them, is within the time span of the Watchtower Organization. It acted arrogantly even against the Prince of the heavenly army; it revoked his regular sacrifice and overthrew the place of his sanctuary. Dan 8:11 "His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause outrageous destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the powerful along with the holy people. Dan 8:24 "Then the king will do whatever he wants. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will say outrageous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, because what has been decreed will be accomplished." Dan 11:36 "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." Rev 13:5-7 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thess 2:3,4 "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months." Rev 11:1-3 Elders are "Gentiles". The anointed are "Israel"/"Jews" of "New Jerusalem". Gal 4:26 If you and others like you could only see the truth, yet you choose the doctrine of men by supporting the elder body as your "judges" and "priests". This blasphemes God's covenant with the priesthood, and tramples His Temple as prophesied to happen in the last days.

The anointed are the new creation. (2 Cor 5:17; 1 Pet 1:23)They will reign on the earth as priests and kings, as well as have access to "heaven'. That is why they are a "new creation", both human and angel. (1 Cor 15:44) God's word is reliable and this is backed up by the promise given to Jacob (Israel) and to his seed: "Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. 11 So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!” If the priests are to teach the people (Mal 2:7), how can they do so if they are not among them? The WT has devised a conception of the "144,000" as clones, men, with beards, looking down from heaven unable to enjoy their inheritance. To me, this is Satan making jest of God's new creation. Since the WT has "trampled" the anointed as it is, why not fill every JW mind with as many lies as they can, about the role of the anointed? Why not wipe away the individuality and personalities of His priests, not only now as an unrecognizable "nation" presently, but by creating a blasphemous picture of the 144,000 looking exactly the same - in face, clothing and sex. Sheesh. They might as well be some sort of heavenly robot. Jesus also spoke of this ladder: And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” John 1:51 Mal 2:7 states that the priests are God's messengers. "Angel" means messenger. Those ascending and descending on this stairway, are part of the Bride of Christ that "comes down from heaven" with Jesus, to rule/teach all of Gods children. Jesus returns to the earth with his "cloud" of witnesses - "Israel". The "great cloud of witnesses" are God's chosen witnesses - "Israel", not every JW in the organizaiton. Mark 14:62; 13:26; Heb 12:1; Isa 43: 1,10; Matt 24:30 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. Acts 3:19-21 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:2 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. Rev 3:12 The temple/New Jerusalem, made with "living stones", will be with mankind on earth. They will also have their time in heaven. So, "ascending and descending" between heaven and earth is necessary for God's kings/priests to serve Him, Jesus and God's children. We have been indoctrinated with a lie that supports the silencing of the anointed. The earth presently is Satan's domain. His enemy is Christ and Christ's brothers. Why would he allow the truth about them inheriting the earth, to be revealed in the organization where we know the priests of God have been replaced by a large army of elders who have the authority to spiritually judge His chosen people? (Joel chapter 2) I'm trying to understand why you chose that scripture. "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." God's spirit dwells in the anointed heart. They are His "dwelling"/temple even while on the earth. (1 Cor 3:16,17) They are priests/kings, even while on earth. (1 Pet 2:5,9) God is naturally, "above" everything, in spirit, because He IS spirit. John 4:24; Ps 139:7,8

Confusing, isn't it!

Well said.♥️

I look forward to listening to this. Knowing the "Master's Belongings" has nothing to do with earthly riches to begin with, shows up the organization as no different from any other organization in the world. Christ's words make little impact on men seeking riches. Luke 4:5-7 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Matt 6:19-21

There have been faithful anointed and faithful believers in Christ, since the first century The "faithful", those who worship "in spirit and truth", taught and absorbed truth, from God's Word. The only difference today, is that an organization that has captured the attention of millions over time (Col 2:8), and boasts its ability to provide scriptural truth. Yet, it is done in the presence of lies. “Among my people are the wicked who lie in wait like men who snare birds and like those who set traps to catch people." Jer 5:26 "Their tongue is a deadly arrow; it speaks deceitfully. With their mouths they all speak cordially to their neighbors, but in their hearts they set traps for them." Jer 9:8 "The Lord’s anointed, our very life breath, was caught in their traps. We thought that under his shadow we would live among the nations." Lam 4:20 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Rev 16:13,14 "kings of the earth" - "and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth." Rev 1:5 "And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:10 "He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev 13:10