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Witness

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  1. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    I definitely agree that you said interesting thoughts. Even more. You going further, into some future with "insight". That is visible in idea you mentioned, how "mediate" about something about what is not "broadly accepted" and how it "is not wrong to speculate" with outcome how that process in us resulted with "new insight".
    How that is different with what some other people doing? What if JHVH support your "speculation and private new insight", but you still thinking, how He, because of your prayer, thinks that you are on right path and have no need to correct you?
    Does this mean how "typical Witness" is in better position than JW's who participate here as "untypical"? :))
    I don't know WHO and WHEN had INVENTED this Phrase, but imagine this scene: Jesus is in corner of synagogue,  after he gave his speech introducing "speculation" and "new light". One priest come to him and in fatherly figure mode with soft and calm voice tell him: "Dear Jesus, my brother, my son, don't running ahead. Wait for God and He will change all what is not good. Our GB will be enlighten by His word and make all  changes that is needed, but you must wait."
  2. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    @TrueTomHarley stated:  "There are no “typical” Witnesses here, in my view, except for a few that occasionally stray here, sometimes naively offer comments, thinking persons will be readjusted, and then leave shocked when they discover that no way will it happen. On a few occasions, I have chased them away—it is fine for them to stay here if they wish, but they should know the score before they do. They should not think that Witness, for example,  is some misguided sister that they can help with but a kind word or two."
    Yes Tom, I have more power to mislead a JW than 8 men put together.  Incredible, isn’t it?    Although with wolves, there is power in numbers.  One thing about spiritual wolves among sheep, is that they rub shoulders with them, and gain their confidence.  They speak soothing words with poison on their lips.  Ps 140:3
    Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.  Matt 7:15-20
    Clear evidence that you reside among wolves is WT's failed, distorted, changed doctrine.  CLEAR EVIDENCE, ACCORDING TO CHRIST.  YET, IGNORED BY THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO REMAIN BLIND TO THE EVIDENCE.   2 Cor 4:1-4
    Even the seemingly innocent ones led by wolves, can mislead a sheep through prophetic speculation; while also misleading oneself with one’s own, provocative lie. 
    Perhaps you can explain how the focus of Daniel 11 switches from the trampling of the anointed "saints", over to the conquering of the entire world.  Is God's Temple found in a government of the world?  Is it found in a religion of the world?
    It is found in the hearts of the anointed ones, who are found in the organization.  They are the target of Satan in the last days.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22   Rev 20:7-9
    “Then the king will do whatever he wants. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god, (John 10:34-36) and he will say outrageous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, because what has been decreed will be accomplished.”  Dan 11:36,37
     “It acted arrogantly even against the Prince of the heavenly army;(Rev 1:5) it revoked his regular sacrifice and overthrew the place of his sanctuary.”  Dan 8:11
    "His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the regular sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.”  Dan 11:31
    “His power will be great,
    but it will not be his own power.  (Rev 13:14,15; 19:20)
    He will cause outrageous destruction
    and succeed in whatever he does.
    He will destroy the powerful
    along with the holy people.”  Dan 8:24
     “He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s temple, proclaiming that he himself is God.”  2 Thess 2:4
    "Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who worship there. 2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Don’t measure it, because it is given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."  Rev 11:1,2
    "Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. 
    Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders! Their record of faithful service, often over many decades, inspires our trust. "  W 02/8/1
    This is doctrine of men, that contradicts God's decrees  found in the Bible. 2 Chron 13:9; 23:6,7; Num 18:7; Dan 9:27 (edited)    If JWs say they love the scriptures, and love God,  then I would hope they would research what is happening in their own corrupt organization, that calls itself "spirit-directed".  Rev 13:15  Otherwise, to ignore God's decrees  concerning HIS priesthood, is utter hypocrisy.  
    The “man of lawlessness”/elder body conquers the priesthood by ruling over it; and halting, dissolving their priestly sacrifices of praise from their own lips; and instead, expecting them to regurgitate "fruit" that comes from a "bad tree"/wicked slave.  Matt 24:48-51 (edited)
    The GB are not a conglomerate High Priest that directs the priesthood.  That only, is Christ.  Heb 5:5,6,9,10   
    The word for "bad" in Matt 7:15-20 above, means "corrupt" "unfit for use", "worthless".  So, why do JWs continue in giving allegiance to 8 men who cannot produce "good" ("good constitution", "upright")  fruit, since the evidence in scripture shows that bad fruit (spoiled, discarded teachings) does not grow on a "good tree"?
    We are, what we eat.  
     
     
     
    "Iron and Clay"  4womaninthewilderness blogspot, Pearl Doxsey
     
     
     
  3. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    “(to give the correct perspective)”
    “Hardened in their pattern of thinking”
    “But remain totally uninvolved”
    “defend the truth”
    Arauna, do you remember your comment on my post about the locust?
    I didn’t see you remaining totally uninvolved there.
    Do you also remember the Watchtower’s new adjustment on the identity of the locusts of both Revelation and Joel?  Have you adjusted your own hardened pattern of thinking to bring it in line with new ‘truth’ concerning their absolute need to make it clear that the locust in Joel 2 are not the same army as the one in Revelation 9?  Are you prepared to give the (new )correct perspective (that of the WT) when confronted with this topic?
     
    What truth do you defend today that is different than the truth you defended two years ago? 
    Some of us have preferred to  harden our pattern of thinking in line with Christ’s truth that we recognize in the scriptures, and that other anointed have offered.  To do this, we have “changed the way we think” about men who stumble repeatedly, over their own version of “truth”.   Rom 12:2   We have realized not only is their  truth fake, but so are they.  Luke 21:8; Rev 8:10,11; 13:11  So, we who spent a good chunk of our lives believing in something fake, now have an ax to grind with the WT.   We want those whom we love, to wake up to their own captivity to empty philosophy.  Col 2:8; Rev 13:10  If you and others like you would just wake up, I can guarantee that you in particular, would join us, since I see it in your personality. (OCD) Eph 5:8-14
    The word truth is tossed around between us - between both sides.  There is only one "truth" and it never needs to be discarded.  That "truth" comes only from Christ.  John 14:6; John 15:7,8,16; 2 Tim 2:15
    Eph 6:14 - "Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place"
    How many times have you changed your "belt of truth" since being a JW?  
      Perhaps dictionaries should include an addendum to the definition of truth –
    “Truth as taught by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society:  ‘new light’”
    I know, “OCD” .    
     
     
     
     
  4. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from Arauna in Large Group of Native Americans in Mexico Violently Expelled from their Homeland Due to Converting to the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion   
    Many were baptized into the organization before the stipulation was made of dedicating oneself to the organization.
     
    When one of those individuals baptized in the early 80's and before, wakes up to their own captivity under the rules of men (Col 2:20-23); and persistently rejects the organization today, should that be termed a gross sin, requiring shunning or disfellowshipping? 
    Do God's rules ever change?  Or, is it men changing their rules; who operate an organization,and devise new and  improved  'hard and fast rules' necessary to keep the flock penned in, for their apparent 'safety'?  
    Stay in Jehovah’s organization! It’s the only way of life that brings happiness.”  W 10/6/15 pg 9,10
    Here is God's rule through Christ:
    Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."  John 10:7-10
    Jesus is the only way to life, according to his words.  He is not an organization; yet, the organization "kills" those who reject it, and turn to Christ.    Not only does it rob people away from Christ, but it threatens people with loss of family, and home for rejecting it.  
    It is truly, a thieving BEAST.  Rev 13:1,4-10, 11,15; 11:1-3,7; 18:4-8
     
  5. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Alzasior Lutor in REVELATION'S LOCUSTS - WHO ARE THEY?   
    Let’s face it, the creature in the drawing below, portrays ugly evil. And yet the organization relates Revelation’s stinging locusts to the anointed and their preaching work. Rev 9:3 God’s priests are to be messengers of truth from Christ, praising YHWH with the “fruit” of their lips. These teachings impart the light of life to those who accept them. Isa 43:21; Matt 5:14,16; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 13:15; Rev 7:10,12 
    Would one who is to carry the “living water” from Christ, torture and afflict unsealed anointed ones – their brothers in Christ? John 4:10,14; 7:38; Rev 7:3; 9:4 Yet, that is what the locust army does! Rev 9:10 Also, God would not issue forth a proclamation bearing truth and light, from a realm of darkness, blindness, confusion and death. However, he would inspire His faithful anointed to trumpet a warning message of truth from heaven, concerning this deadly deception. Ezek 2:1-5; Rev 9:3; Ezek 2:6,7; Rev 8:13;9:13,14; Matt 24:31; Rev 11:1-3  
     Rev chapter 9 tells us that the locust army is given authority to afflict, oppress and deceive; having as its King, the Destroyer, which the scriptures clearly tell us is Satan the devil, the father of the lie. Isa 33:1; Rev 9:11; John 8:44.  
    The warning message from heaven would reveal the locust army as the man of lawlessness, “sitting”/ruling over the temple of God; a rule that afflicts and tramples the “living stones”/priesthood of God’s Temple; those members whom the organization states are the locusts! Dan 11:36,37; 8:11,24; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:4; Rev 13:5-7
     The message has indeed revealed the locust scorpions’ identity as a false, counterfeit priesthood “representing the royal priesthood”, in the organization. Ezek 44:6-9; Matt 24:15;2 Thess 2:3,8; Rev 11:1-3
    Please, JWs, don’t be fooled by your leaders’ interpretation of these locusts. The true identity of this great locust army encourages you to engage in the “preaching work”; well supplied with the latest spiritual food from your “faithful and discreet slave”. Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:1,2,11,15 They view you as assisting the anointed by spreading a “plaguing message”, as it is called. Are you aware of this? Please consider, how would a message that scripture tells us brings the sting of deceit, which leads to sin, coincide with a preaching work that you perceive as the “good news of the kingdom”...and those who actively support it, as living the “best life ever?” Would you call your preaching message a destructive "plague"?  
    “And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the arth. 4 They were told (“poured forth-speak” Rev 16:13,14) not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. (Rev 7:3) 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.” Rev 9:3-6
    Each descriptive element of the locusts’ appearance helps target their identity.
    “The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.”
    Their symbolic crown represents a false authority (as “princes”) bestowed on them by the “fallen star” that releases them from the abyss. 2 Pet 3:17; (Phil 2:15) Rev 9:1,2; 8:10,11 Through their obedience to this “fallen star”/false prophet, poisoned teachings flood the heart of those under the New Covenant “woman”. 2 Cor 11:4; Eph 4:14; Gal 4:26; Rev 8:10,11; 12:9,15,16  
    9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stings, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
     2 Thess 2:9-12 shows us that the army’s deceptive existence is according to the works of Satan. Their hearts repel truth, choosing instead to love the lie. God “sends” or allows this powerful army and its beguiling image, to subdue His anointed priests, ultimately sifting the righteous from the wicked; by their choice to either serve Him exclusively in truth, or love Satan’s deceptive lie. (1 Kings 22:21,22) Luke 22:31; John 3:19,20; 1 Tim 4:1; Rom 1:25; Rev 13:4
    Pearl Doxsey:
    “Are not locust's mouths known for devouring and swallowing (Nahum 3:15; Joel 1:4; Exod 10:12-14) .... not giving forth?
    No, a "plague/curse" of locusts are for destroying... not proclaiming life-saving truths (John 10:10). The locust-scorpions of Rev.9 are instead said to "sting".
    The Bible clearly tells us the purpose of that power (1 Cor 15:15,16) (Ezek 2:6; Luke 10:19) (Rev 9:10). Those with stingers inject sin into their victims... sin that brings forth paralysis and death (Rom 5:12; 8:2; 1 Cor 15:56).  
    The identity of the "man of sin" who gains power over the unsealed anointed, is also described in  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:7; 9:10.
    In stating that the TAILS have death's stingers (Rev 9:10);
    these locusts deliver lies, sourced in the abyss from whence they came.
    The Locust-Scorpions are in subjection to, and under the direction of, that last False Prophet/Wormwood/Fallen Star. In servitude to that last Harlot, these Locust-Scorpions prophesy lies themselves (Isa 9:15,16; Rev 16:1).
    When these Locust-Scorpions falsely prophesy the Harlot's wormwood lies, what is the result to those who accept/receive/ingest those false doctrines?
    Although the Harlot's lies may taste as sweet as truth (Ps 119:103,98; Eze 3:3), the result is death (Rev 10:10; Prov 5:3-5; 7:27; 2:16-19; Isa 28:14,15; Rev 8:11; Deut 32:32; Rev 17:2). Those Chosen who remain under that power, remain in death. They are in subjection to Satan, through his agents, and they remain under the power of the Abyss and it's destruction... unsealed as slaves of God. They are obedient to doctrines of demons, rather than obedient to the teachings of God and Christ."
    (Deut 11:18; Rev 16:16); (Rev 14:1)
    From “Locust-Scorpions/Abaddon/fallen star/Wormwood”  4womaninthewilderness, Pearl Doxsey
     
    Joel Chapter 2:
    Blow the trumpet in Zion,
    and sound the alarm on my holy mountain!
    Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    for the day of YHWH is coming
    —it is indeed near.
    2 A day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of cloud and thick darkness,
    like the dawn spreads on the mountains,
    a great and strong army!
    There has been nothing like it from old,
    and after it nothing will be again for generations to come.
    3 Before them a fire devours,
    and behind them a flame burns.
    Like the garden of Eden is the land before them,
    and after them it is like a desolate desert,
    and nothing can escape them.
    4 Like the appearance of horses is their appearance,
    and like horsemen they run;
    5 like the sound of chariots on the tops of the mountains, they leap about;
    like the sound of a flame of fire
    devouring stubble;
    like a strong army arranged
    in rows for battle.
    6 From before them nations writhe,
    all faces turn pale.
    7 They run like mighty warriors,
    they scale the wall like men of war;
    each goes on its own way,
    and they do not swerve from their paths.
    8 They do not jostle one another;
    each goes on its own trail;
    and through the falling weapons,
    they are not halted.
    9 In the city they rush forth;
    on the walls they run.
    Into the houses they climb up;
    through the windows
    they enter like a thief.
    10 Before them the earth quakes;
    the heavens tremble;
    the sun and the moon grow dark,
    and the stars have withheld their splendor
    11 And YHWH utters His voice before His army,
    because His encampment is very large;
    strong is the one who carries out His decree,
    for great is the day of YHWH
    and exceedingly fearful.
    Who can endure it?
    12 “And even now,” declares YHWH,
    “return to me with all your heart,
    with fasting, and weeping, and wailing.”
    13 Rend your hearts and not your garments,
    and return to YHWH your God,
    because He is gracious and compassionate,
    slow to anger and great in loyal love,
    and relenting from harm.
    14 Who knows whether He will turn and relent,
    and leave a blessing behind Him,
    an offering and a libation,
    for YHWH your God?
    15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
    sanctify a fast, call an assembly;
    16 gather the people, consecrate the assembly;
    assemble the elders, gather the children,
    even those who are breast-feeding;
    let the bridegroom come out from his private room,
    and the bride from her canopy.
    17 Between the colonnade and the altar,
    let the priests, the ministers of YHWH, weep.
    And let them say, “Take pity, YHWH, on your people.
    Do not make your inheritance a reproach,
    a byword among the nations.
    Why should they say among the nations,
    ‘Where is their God?’”
    18 Then YHWH became jealous for His land
    and took pity on His people.
    19 And YHWH answered and said to His people,
    “Look at me, I am sending to you
    grain, new wine, and olive oil,
    and you will be satisfied by it.
    I will not give you over any more
    as a disgrace among the nations.
    20 The northerner army
    I will remove from you;
    I will drive them to a desert
    and desolate land,
    its front to the eastern sea,
    and its rear into the western sea;
    its stench and odor will rise up
    because He has done great things.
    21 Do not fear, O land,
    rejoice and be glad,
    because YHWH has done great things.
    22 Do not fear, wild animals of the field,
    because the pastures of the desert have put forth new green shoots,
    because the tree has produced its fruit,
    the fig tree and the vine
    have yielded their produce.
    23 Be glad, O children of Zion,
    be glad and rejoice in YHWH your God,
    because he has given for you
    the autumn rains for your righteousness,
    and he has poured down for you rainwater,
    the autumn and spring rains, as before.
    24 The threshing floors will be full with grain,
    and the vats will overflow
    with new wine and olive oil.
    25 I will repay you the years
    that the locust has eaten,
    the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
    my mighty troops that I sent against you.
    26 And you will eat abundantly and be satisfied,
    and praise the name of YHWH your God,
    who has dealt with you wondrously.
    My people will forever not be ashamed.
    27 And you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
    and I am YHWH,
    your God, and there is no other.
    My people will never be ashamed again.
    28 And it will happen afterward thus:
    I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
    and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
    and your elders will dream dreams;
    your young men shall see visions.
    29 And also on the male slaves and on the female slaves,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 And I will set wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun will be changed to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH. 32 And it will happen—everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be rescued, because on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as YHWH said, and among the survivors whom YHWH is calling. 
     
    “Mark of Slavery”
    “666”
    “What is Sheol/Hades?”
    “Leviathan and the Abyss”
    4womaninthewilderness blogspot
     
     

  6. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Large Group of Native Americans in Mexico Violently Expelled from their Homeland Due to Converting to the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion   
    Many were baptized into the organization before the stipulation was made of dedicating oneself to the organization.
     
    When one of those individuals baptized in the early 80's and before, wakes up to their own captivity under the rules of men (Col 2:20-23); and persistently rejects the organization today, should that be termed a gross sin, requiring shunning or disfellowshipping? 
    Do God's rules ever change?  Or, is it men changing their rules; who operate an organization,and devise new and  improved  'hard and fast rules' necessary to keep the flock penned in, for their apparent 'safety'?  
    Stay in Jehovah’s organization! It’s the only way of life that brings happiness.”  W 10/6/15 pg 9,10
    Here is God's rule through Christ:
    Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."  John 10:7-10
    Jesus is the only way to life, according to his words.  He is not an organization; yet, the organization "kills" those who reject it, and turn to Christ.    Not only does it rob people away from Christ, but it threatens people with loss of family, and home for rejecting it.  
    It is truly, a thieving BEAST.  Rev 13:1,4-10, 11,15; 11:1-3,7; 18:4-8
     
  7. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in Large Group of Native Americans in Mexico Violently Expelled from their Homeland Due to Converting to the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion   
    Does this sort of behavior, that other society groups shows in their environment, is also Bible based and approved by God, no matter  of fact that they are not JW's?  Can we conclude how they also doing God's will, no matter of their spiritual position before that same God and because they belong, or not belong, to some religion, but not to JW religion? 
    If i would judge myself, i would agree with picture how i am very naive :)) But we are not speaking about me or you. We making observation on JW religion, their history and present time. My world is "small" :)) and i will not return back any idea about your "world", because that is not of my concern. I want to speak about "Ideas", not about people and their's "small or big worlds". 
    We can talk about "JW standards"and "WT Society standards".
     I hope you will accept this humble direction about/for our future conversation. :))
  8. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in Large Group of Native Americans in Mexico Violently Expelled from their Homeland Due to Converting to the Jehovah's Witnesses Religion   
    As you can see, i made accent with word "shun" on custom of JW org. Shunning is usual practice inside JW org.
    But we are also aware of some practice when JW's ask dfd member to live the house (not area). Various Gradation of "expelling people" because of religious (and other) reasons is visible in many social groups.  
  9. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    None of us here, walked the earth when Jesus did.  None of us, can know for certain if his hair was always washed, neat and trimmed with a good pair of scissors.  Especially, during the 40 days and nights he spent in the wilderness, which was the theme of the painting by the Russian artist.     But, there is one thing that I am most confident in knowing.  Jesus Christ today, does not wear a red, comical superman cape, that your leaders have taken the liberty in assuming he does.     They've really stretched the boundary of scripture there, haven't they!
     
  10. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    So there is no distinction between what the Catholics thought Jesus looked like, and the organization.  Hmmm.  No spiritual insight by those in “Jehovah’s organization” (yes, I said it again) that Jesus was a native Jew and probably took on the characteristics of a native Jew, as his cousin John the Baptist did in the drawing above. You are telling me that no distinction is seen in this area between Christendom's perception and the organization's perception.   
     By today’s standards, does the organization have it right yet?
    This is a painting of  Christ which I believe reveals the suffering he experienced, walking his path in truth while on earth.  The Russian painter , not a JW, seemed to comprehend Isa 53:2   He produced this painting in 1872.  

     "He grew up before him like a young plant and like a root out of dry ground. He didn't have an impressive form or majesty that we should look at him, no appearance that we should desire him."
     
    The following are the organization’s drawings of Jesus.  Notice the terrific hairdos, always nicely manicured.  I mean, it's a layered cut.  


    What is more important, the outer appearance of  a man, or what lies in his heart?  John 6:63; Matt 15:18,19  The way the organization depicts Jesus, is the way JWs are to appear to others in the world.  Physical appearance regarding people, their dress, the appearance of  buildings, and whatever else we can see with our eyes, are of utmost importance.  How the organization is viewed in a worldly way takes precedence over its ability to produce sound, lasting, spiritual truth.   The WT's sins, are covered over carefully by this facade of eye-catching desirability. 
      As Jesus told the Pharisees, 
    Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness."  Luke 11:39
    The message behind the first picture expresses the thought that the glory of Jesus,  is perceived only with spiritual eyes.  John 13:31,32  No wonder the organization draws Jesus as it does.  He is seen through the eyes of worldly men, who treasure their worldly possessions;  forgetting that God sees all of us far differently.  
    And he told them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the sight of others, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly admired by people is revolting in God's sight.  Luke 16:15
     But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or his stature because I have rejected him. Humans do not see what the LORD sees,  for humans see what is visible, but the LORD sees the heart."  1 Sam 16:17
    Am I a Christian?  I bore testimony to Christ, and I was disfellowshipped for it.   Luke 21:12-15;  John 16:2; Rev 13:15; 11:7
  11. Upvote
    Witness reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "Yet Another Questionable Watchtower Story"   
    The story is completely short on details, and long on second hand accounts.
    I would be embarrassed to even relate something as infantile as that story.
    It DELIBERATELY leaves out any references that can be checked, for veracity.
    Besides that, it is so improbable as to be impossible.
    It lacks any vestige of integrity.
    It assumes we can be lied to, and we are too stupid to notice such things.
    As a general rule, that may be a correct assumption.
    A three legged horse MAY win the race, and this story MAY be completely true ... but that is not the way sane people would bet.
  12. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in "Yet Another Questionable Watchtower Story"   
    -small church
    -1000 small church members want to have BS with JW's
    -half of small church members (1000 men)
    -having BS in KH (only men , all in suits and with ties, of small church without women and children. This sound  like some Bible report that never mentioned number of whole people but only grown male number aka people who can carry a sword :))) 
    -what sort of people, in some small church, will abandon their church in one week  and want to left their faith to go to another church?? 
    -why to speak about 1970's preaching experience when (and dig up again 1975 Armageddon) when nowadays Society building more KH and bringing more people in silent service with Cart witnessing than ever :))
  13. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from Foreigner in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    Through the eyes of a Catholic and not through the eyes of a member of "Jehovah's organization".   
  14. Thanks
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    I will highlighted in red color some parts of text, and add some comment... and apologize for too much text :)) 
     
     
    How did WT Society see Nazi German period, when Society were "young"? How looked time frame for Society?
     
     
     
    In this scholar analysis, author saw how JW Organization and members had WRONG Scripture interpretations, expectations, doctrine  and beliefs in this, so called, Time Frame. As few times before and after this time point, too.  By using this Book analysis, i would conclude how Spiritual Leaders of WT Society in that period of time (and today, too) had been led by Time Frame and own understanding, more than by Bible, Spirit, Angel, Prayer etc.
     
    Well, according to this, German leadership knew details from Letter and general membership Not. And how would You feel if somebody call you "Antichrist" and that you will be destroy in the "coming battle of the end" if not kneel down to Jesus Representatives on Earth aka WT Society? 
    Again, WT Society made collective atmosphere of "hysteria" about how end of the world is here, so why not to give your life as member, because tomorrow you will be resurrected? Time Frame, again. But this is Inside Work of how so called Time Frame have to look if you are JW. 
    Again, to copy paste:  These straightforward statements left the Reichskanzler with only two possible conclusions: either the Declaration was the product of the collective imaginations of some crazed religious group or, it was, in its mad boldness, a declaration of war from a David against a Goliath.
    Here we see, how this book's "worldly" perspective was clearly said what JW members do not see. Declaration was product of one or of both facts. That JW was in "collective imagination" and that they "declare war to Hitler". 
     
     
    Really? Is this true? In what Time Frame is this statement true and in what Time Frame it is a lie?
     
    WT Society saw political situation of the world in absurd imagination of Own Time Frame.
    All credit we can give to those JW who resist the "evil",  even if they done that with lack of rational human mind. Other people also resist the evil, passively too. Some other had fight against evil and win it (temporary) and that is why this biblical-fundamentalist Christian group  not ended in elimination. Or if you want it in this way: God allowed such outcome. What ever that means, because in JW terminology "allowed" doesn't mean how God approved or justified something. 
     
  15. Haha
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    Through the eyes of a Catholic and not through the eyes of a member of "Jehovah's organization".   
  16. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    Artists are people who need inspiration for their works. In the absence of divine inspiration, the inspiration of this worldly world is also good, enough for making pictures. :))
  17. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The New Light on Locusts of Joel 2 and Revelation 22   
    Thanks,  I found the same on reddit:
    “The locusts of Joel Chapter 2 no longer refer to Jehovah's Witnesses and events surrounding 1919. The locusts in Revelation chapter 22 however still do refer to the anointed, but are now no longer connected with the prophecy on Joel. Joel 2 now refers to the "Babylonians", the coalition of nations that will try to destroy God's people. The context of Joel chapter 2 points the time period of fulfilment to Jehovah's Day in the Great Tribulation and how God will save his people.”
     
    JWs, see “Live with Jehovah’s Day in Mind” (pg 172,173; par 12, 2006), which refers to that day’s present “truth”, concerning Revelation and Joel’s locusts defined as “God’s people”.  How is it, that the organization’s leaders just recently realize that the locusts in the book of Joel are out to destroy God’s people?  Joel 2:25,27-32   Locusts have never been portrayed as a good thing in the scriptures.  In Revelation, why would God consider His own people as a devastating plague?  
    Both Revelation and Joel refer to the last days, Armageddon.  Joel 3:14,15; Rev 16:13-16
    They both refer to a foreign nation coming against God’s holy people. Joel 1:6; Rev 9:4; Rev 11:1,2;13:7
    It appears Mr. Splane is basically saying there are two locust armies present in the last days, sharing the same characteristics.  Do the good guys and the bad guys spiritually, look and act exactly the same; as horses with lion’s heads, dark, foreboding, chewing, destructive by use of fiery words filled with ugly intentions?  JWs, I hope if you compare the scriptures, you can determine they are the same army that comes against God’s “saints” in the last days.  That army resides with you, as the elder body ruling over God’s “land”; his anointed priesthood, (1 Pet 2:5,9) who do not have the seal of God upon their foreheads. (Rev 9:4)  Instead, they carry the mark of an organization; the “mark of the Beast” which is the mark of an idol.  You receive this mark not only at your baptism, but through your activities all performed for the organization. Rev 13:16,17   Anyone who recognize this destructive army and refuse to acknowledge its power over him, is “killed” – disfellowshipped; which also, removes the mark of the Beast.  Rev 13:1,4-10,15; 19:20
    Elders here, would not consider themselves as destructive.  Only by researching God's early priesthood and comparing today's necessary obedience of His priesthood under Christ, to a GB and massive army of elders, would anyone realize how this duel leadership is one of blasphemy, according to God's decrees.  Dan 11:31; 8:11; Rev 11:2; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Pet 2:9; Mal 2:7; Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Chron 13:9
    We cannot serve two Masters.  Matt 6:24  We cannot proclaim both the doctrine of God and Christ, and the doctrine of men.  They conflict; for one is pure, from God; and the other is corruptive, as proven by Splane’s effort to veil the power given to his own army, through which his spiritual “brothers” are silenced and restricted from bonding together. Matt 24:48-51  To allow the anointed to gather together, is a threatening act toward the exposure of truth. 1 John 2:20 So, they claim it would threaten the unity of all JWs in the organization.  I so wish you could see how this is emotional and spiritual blackmail committed toward the "royal priesthood".  
     The only way to make  a selling point of their doctrine on the locusts, is to separate the identities.   However, one anointed woman saw the true meaning of the locusts in Joel and Revelation, several years ago.   Her messages have made it necessary for Watchtower to change its “truth”.   
    “The Greatest Tribulation – What and Why?”  Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness
     
     
     
    I hope you take time to compare the scriptures about the locusts from both Joel and Revelation:
    Joel 1:6:  For a nation has come up against My land,
    Strong, and without number;
    His teeth are the teeth of a lion,
    And he has the fangs of a fierce lion.
    Rev 9:8:  They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Joel 1:4:  What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten;
    What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten;
    And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten.
    Rev 9:3:   “Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”
    Ezek 2:6:  “And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Joel 2:2:  “A day of darkness and gloominess,
    A day of clouds and thick darkness,
    Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
    A people come, great and strong,
    The like of whom has never been;
    Nor will there ever be any such after them,
    Even for many successive generations.”
    Joel 2:10:  “The earth quakes before them,
    The heavens tremble;
    The sun and moon grow dark,
    And the stars diminish their brightness.”
    Rev 9:2,3:  “And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.  Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    Ezek 2:6:  “And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Joel 2:4:  “Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
    And like swift steeds, so they run.” (KJV – “and they galloped like war horses”)
    Rev 9:7:  “The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.”
    Rev 9:17:  “And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.”  (1 Pet 5:8)
    Rev 9:19:  For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
    1 Pet 5:8:  “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”
    Ezek 2:6 - “And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Joel 2:5:  “With a noise like chariots
    Over mountaintops they leap,
    Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
    Like a strong people set in battle array.”
    Rev 9:9: “And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Joel 2:6: “Before them the people writhe in pain;
    All faces are drained of color.”
    Rev 9:5,6:  “And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.  In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Joel 2:3:  “A fire devours before them,
    And behind them a flame burns;
    The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
    And behind them a desolate wilderness;
    Surely nothing shall escape them.”
    Rev 9:18:  “By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.”
    Rev 9:20:  “But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.” (Zech 13:8; Rev 2:16; Rev 13:10)
     
    Joel 1:6:  “For a nation has come up against My land,
    Strong, and without number;
    His teeth are the teeth of a lion,
    And he has the fangs of a fierce lion.”
    Jer 5:17-19:  “And they shall eat up your harvest and your bread,
    Which your sons and daughters should eat.
    They shall eat up your flocks and your herds;
    They shall eat up your vines and your fig trees;
    They shall destroy your fortified cities,
    In which you trust, with the sword.
    18 “Nevertheless in those days,” says the Lord, “I will not make a complete end of you. 19 And it will be when you say, ‘Why does the Lord our God do all these things to us?’ then you shall answer them, ‘Just as you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve strangers in a land that is not yours.’
     
    Rev 9:4:  “ They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
    Rev 7:3:  saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
     
     
  18. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from Arauna in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    When we make excuses for men who have misled millions with doctrinal lies (because failed doctrine is a lie), who are we supporting; the God of Truth, or the god of the lie?  1 Thess 2:13  When men say they represent Christ, but fail to provide millions of people with true doctrine (“this generation”/thousand years, the true Temple of God…) and we accept their fallacious excuse (Belief Clarified), who are we supporting; Jesus Christ who is Truth, or the god of the lie?  John 8:44-47; 14:6
     
     Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their *testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.  Rev 12:10,11
    Those of God's people who fully defend God and Christ in truth, by speaking against lies, (their "testimony") are spiritually killed by the "spirit-breathed" Beast/organization.  John 16:2; Rev 13:15   They are spiritually killed/disfellowshipped by the Watchtower organization - "Jehovah's spirit-directed organization".   They refuse to "worship", give any credence, respect or value, to the Beast".  Rev 13:4
    They did not love their "lives" in the Beast, more than their love for God, Jesus and Truth.  Thus, they personally cast Satan down.
     “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings (GB and elders) for My sake, as a *testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
    21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.  Matt 10:16-23
     
     
     
     
  19. Upvote
  20. Thanks
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    I wondered  the same thing about 6 years ago, when just leaving the WT. Definitely, it can give a person a "strong headache"!    What I realized when it was pointed out to me, is that the answer is right in this set of scriptures.  Satan contrives the delusion, not God.  "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works."  God "sends" the delusion by allowing it to happen.  He allowed Satan to test Job's integrity, by removing the protective "hedge" around him.  Job 1:9-12   And, since Satan demands to sift each one of us as "wheat", God allows it.  Luke 22:31  
    I'm taking the liberty to post my question and the answer I received.   I hope it helps alleviate the headache. 
    http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/who-is-to-blame.html
     
  21. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    - He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives
    Here i see how Organizational success in: Preaching work, Legal Battles, Worldwide Unity, Building Programs, Technology helped Education ...etc, .... and hard work to be Moral in all things, can be also "weapon" that serve the lie. Not one time, even WT Society publication emphasized, how it is not enough for individual, or whole groups of people, to be nice and honest, moral people, not to lie, steal, kill, etc., or to even have faith in God, but how is most important to worship Him in acceptable way.
    ... they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  This is very intrigue. How is possible that people, like JW members, refusing to love the truth, when they are so sure how they Have The Truth. They have the truth? This can go to philosophy and some metaphysics. Is it "Truth" some thing that we can to "posses"? Obviously it is inside WT Society. They can "materialize" some supposed "truth" into textual shape of some publication (books or/and magazines). If you get this publication and accept message, than you are in "possesion" of the so called truth. And after some time this "truth" can be replaced with another "truth"( in same manner you replacing old curtain with new one on your window). In means how so called "first truth" came to be "thing" that can be physically put aside or even destroyed. That is how "ownership" is working. Because this sort of "the truth" has not came from God, but it is human Product. If some individual is Creator of something (like "truth" in this case) he is entitled to "posses" it, to sell it, to destroy it.
    Here we see difference about who is ownership of something. Human can not "posses" God's Truth. Human can only "posses" own truth and playing with it as they wish.   
    Well, we came now to this part of 2 Thess: For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie .  What more you need to be on wrong way, than powerful delusion (send by no one else but that God who you, or JW in this subject, want to worship) This is something to get strong headache. You put your trust in God who sends powerful delusion on you because you are wrongly made conclude how you love the truth, but on contrary, you love your own created picture of image of truth.  
    Is there any hope? :))
  22. Like
    Witness got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    The human flaws continue down to this day. WT doctrine is not truth.   Your own leaders say they make errors in doctrine.  What’s around the corner?   They baited you with truth, then fed you lies called truth. Rev 8:10,11; Heb 12:15  We were warned of captivity to “empty philosophy”, a deviation from the teachings of Christ, but JWs continue drinking it in.  Col 2:8; Matt 24:4,5; Rev 13:10; 18:3
    What is preached during the last days to “Israel”?  Matt 10:23
    2 Thess 2:3,4: “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
    Christ calls his servants to expose the man of lawlessness who oppresses the anointed members of Christ’s Body/Temple of God.   This is the message.  Rev 11:1-3   You speak of those who stood up against Moses, as if the organization and its leaders are another "Moses” and the nation of Israel. The comparison is so often made, but its origin is from your leaders; of which I am very sorry.  Moses is so much more in the limelight than Christ Jesus, since the GB compare themselves to Moses as well as the apostles...when necessary to support their spurious role.    It is your leaders who are standing up against the Son of God by replacing the priesthood, with “Gentiles”/elders who “set themselves up” to rule over the anointed Temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 13:5-7   My gosh, do you really believe that elders have God’s authority to teach, judge and disfellowship His own priesthood of “kings”? Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10
    Ezek 44:8; Num 18:7
     And that’s okay with JWs…without considering God’s word; His view of His “special possession” and what to expect of them.   This was Korah’s desire also, to do things his way, not God’s way.  
    Your leaders make their rules and regulations totally contradictory of God’s, which includes idolatry toward an earthly organization that you believe brings salvation.  Col 2:20-23  Even through scriptures, that you say you believe whole-heartedly  in, we see that  Christ is salvation, not an earthly organization.  Act 4:12; John 10:7-10  Christ and the Father.  Who are not attached to earthly things. Luke 12:34  Who have an organization, which is the TEMPLE/”144,000”/Bride/New Jerusalem/Holy City.  They have had it since the first century.  Your organization is a little more than a hundred years old and JWs believe it is what God NOW wants?
    And you believe God turns a blind eye to all that the Watchtower has done?   He doesn’t. For anyone who has eyes that see, it’s time to get out of the Watchtower.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 17:26-37  
    The Watchtower's existence was foretold by both Daniel and John.  We're here; the fourth Beast/organization has trampled the priesthood, allowed by a false prophet/Beast/Harlot. Rev 13:15; 16:13,14; 17:1  Revelation concerns God's wayward people, NOT Christendom.  And, if you recall, many; no, the majority, in the nation of Israel who continually followed their own thinking and worshiped false gods, lost their lives.  God removed His protection and allowed the nations to step in, causing oppression, and suffering.   Our God and His decrees, His judgment and His laws have not changed, but are fulfilled in Christ - the Head of the Temple of God.  The same Temple that is replaced by an organization in Satan's realm.  
    Rev 18:4-8; Rev 19:20
    2 Thess 2:9-12:  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
    edited
  23. Like
    Witness reacted to Matthew9969 in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    Where do they say they erred?
  24. Upvote
    Witness reacted to Shiwiii in What is the point of surviving Judgement Day if you can achieve the same thing by waiting 1,000 years dead?   
    So as I am sure there are plenty of you folks here that adhere and read the wt and "awake".  Have any of you who have read these considered the wt Oct study edition this year? In particular this little quote:
           "KEEP TRYING TO MAKE DISCIPLES
    14. According to Jesus’ instructions recorded at Matthew 28:19, 20, what do we try our best to do, and why?
    14 Read Matthew 28:19, 20. As we conduct Bible studies, we have to try our best to “make disciples . . . , teaching them to observe all the things [Jesus has] commanded.” We need to help people understand how important it is for them to take their stand for Jehovah  and his Kingdom. This means trying to motivate people to make the truth their own by applying what they learn, dedicating their life to Jehovah, and getting baptized. Only then will they survive Jehovah’s day.—1 Pet. 3:21."
     
    So one must be baptized as a jw in order to survive Jehovahs day (judgement day).  That is basically what is being said. 
    What about this statement by the wt? 
    "Millions of others will have the opportunity of gaining everlasting life when they are resurrected. Jesus performed a resurrection when he visited the city of Nain. The only son of a widow had died, and Jesus, “moved with pity,” raised him to life  again. (Luke 7:11-15) Also, the apostle Paul said: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” 
    So which is it? What is the point of surviving the judgement day if you can achieve the same thing after the 1000 years? 
  25. Downvote
    Witness got a reaction from Arauna in JW OPPOSERS GROUPS   
    TTH:  "What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs."
    Oh! So it was really a ‘monumental’ ERROR!  That makes more sense and certainly is backed up by the newspaper articles that I never knew about while a JW.  The Proclaimer's Book "proclaims" only the bare bones, purposefully skipping the embarrassing meat of the story.   
    "The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position."
    Yesterday, prophetic failures were blamed on the members who took any stock in their teachings. Today, they admit that they make mistakes from time to time...
    1 - because God never "inspired" them.
    2 - because Jesus never promised them perfect food. 
    But, yeah, they make mistakes, because of God and Jesus.  Apparently, God and Christ made them error.  What a childlike excuse.  
     
     
     
     
     
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