HollyW

Bruce, you're the one who is running away.  I shared scripture with you and you failed to even reason on it.  You throw up this really lame argument because you've got nothing else to offer.  As I've already stated, a discussion with someone who can't bring himself to reason on the scriptures is pointless.  You stick your fingers in your ears and chant your so-familiar-refrain so that you can ignore what the Bible really teaches. 
I'll be waiting for you to reason on the scripture I posted.  Until then, well, getting to know you has been an experience I could have done without.

my statement still stands. You just refuse to answer in your own words and opinion. 
classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing.
 

Don't you see what you're doing?  Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah either so you've built your argument on sand and can't seem to dig yourself out.  If you ever find yourself able to reason on the scriptures, maybe then we can resume our discussion.  In the meantime, I hope your day goes well for you.

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing. 
 
Did God approve of war? Throughout the OT there is plenty of war, wars instructed by God Himself. Why would Jesus command the disciples to gain a sword? To look cool? Defense? 
 
Dying for the lack of picking up arms does not make one a martyr. 

But the writers were Jews who became Christians.  The Jews you speak of who reject the Trinity also don't accept Christ as Messiah, so how wise would it be to allow them to form opinions for us.

Hi Ann, I'm coming into this discussion a bit late (to say the least) so someone may have pointed this out already, in reply to what I bolded in your post, did you know the WTS has expressed the view that if you read just the Bible, without any WTS publications, you will believe in the Trinity?

Sure they did.  The sort of Bible reading they are referring to is described in their sentence just prior to that one: "to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home".  And they sure didn't describe it the way you did, did they.

Hello Bruceq
 
Thank you for your comments.
 
It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

Uh oh!
Hislop Hokum Alert triggered!

You do know that the 'Dagon Fish' hat thing is a Hislopian fantasy, don't you?
You also do realize that concepts about triad groupings of gods are not the same as the Trinity idea, don't you?

I was reading this same story on another site: http://www.fathershands.com/push/
This PUSH idea has been widely used.  There's a book about it, don't know if the cabin/rock story is in it, though. 
PUSH: Pray Until Something Happens: Divine Principles for Praying with Confidence, Discerning God's Will, and Blessing Others 
This revolutionary book will explain what God wants for and from us when we petition Him for his will to manifest “on Earth as it is in Heaven,” and how to understand the difference.
Do you ever feel as if, despite your spirituality and faith, something significant is missing? Most teenagers and college students, as well as tens of millions of adults, are still striving to figure out the purpose and meaning of their lives.
The natural struggle for faith in something intangible can be compounded by incorrect teachings and contradictory explanations of the workings of God in our lives. How does “free will” really work? What does it mean to ask for God’s will? When things happen in life, how do you really know whether that is God’s will? Is there really any point in praying for His will if we can’t influence it?
These haunting personal questions became the genesis of PUSH as Matthesius sought answers. Now, he unpacks the powerful biblical truths he learned―the result of deep revelation from discovering God and constantly seeking to know him with all his heart.
PUSH is about helping you discover God’s dream for your life so you become the blessing you were meant to be. It is about helping you truly embrace the power of prayer and understand what that means instead of simply treating it as a platitude you offer when someone is struggling. This book will instill confidence and promote vision. PUSH will stir you to take action, to remain vigilant, and Pray Until Something Happens.

I had to repost because of the formatting.  Sorry about that.
Anyway, the article you linked to does mention this incident:

At a Washington, D.C. convention in 1935, Rutherford rejected Russell's teaching that the "great company" of Revelation 7:9 was a "secondary spiritual class" composed of millions of Christians who would be resurrected to heaven apart from the 144,000 "elect", and instead argued that the "great multitude", the "sheep" of Matthew 25 and the "Jonadabs" of 2 Kings chapter 10 all picture the people who could potentially survive Armageddon and receive everlasting human life on earth if they became Jehovah's Witnesses before it began. The Proclaimer's book describes how the Jonadabs came about and what led to them coming to the 1935 convention:

 *** jv 83-4  7 Advertise the King and the Kingdom! (1919-1941) ***
What About the Jonadabs?
In 1932 it was explained that Jehonadab (Jonadab), King Jehu’s associate, prefigured a class of persons who would enjoy everlasting life on earth. (2 Ki. 10:15-28) The Jonadabs, as they came to be known, counted it a privilege to be associated with Jehovah’s anointed servants and to have some share with them in advertising the Kingdom. But at that time, there was no special effort to gather and organize these individuals with an earthly hope.
However, real encouragement was given to the Jonadabs in The Watchtower of August 15, 1934. The article “His Kindness” stated: “Should a Jonadab consecrate himself to the Lord and be baptized? Answer: Most assuredly it is proper for a Jonadab to consecrate himself to do the will of God. No one will ever get life without doing that. Water immersion is merely a symbol of having made a consecration [or, as we would now say, dedication] to do God’s will, and that would not be out of order.” The Jonadabs were thrilled!
Yet, even greater joy was near for them. The following spring, several issues of The Watchtower, beginning with the April 1, 1935, issue, carried this announcement: “Again The Watchtower reminds its readers that a convention of Jehovah’s witnesses and Jonadabs will be held at Washington, D.C., beginning May 30 and ending June 3, 1935.” The Jonadabs eagerly awaited the convention. And the 1988 wt describes what happened at the convention:

*** w88 3/1 12  My Life in Jehovah's Spirit-Directed Organization ***
Early in 1935, some six months after my release from prison and return to Bethel, I recall a number of discussions at the Bethel table regarding the identity of the “great multitude.” (Revelation 7:9, 13, King James Version) Some expressed support for the view that this was a secondary heavenly class, even as the first president of the Watch Tower Society, Brother Russell, had taught. Others, however, argued that the “great multitude” consisted of those with an earthly hope. During these discussions, Brother Rutherford did not commit himself.
All of us at Bethel were excited as we traveled by special train to Washington, D.C., for the convention to be held from May 30 to June 3, 1935. On the second day of the convention, Brother Rutherford presented the thrilling news that the “great multitude” are indeed an earthly class. At the climactic moment, he asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” About half of the 20,000 in attendance stood. Then Brother Rutherford proclaimed: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a brief hush. Then we all shared in a gladsome cry, and the cheering was loud and long. The next day 840 were baptized, mostly of the earthly class. Those designated up to this time as the great crowd would not have stood up because their hope was a heavenly one, so they sat there and listened as that heavenly hope was dashed for them by Rutherford giving their designation to the Jonadabs, a group who weren't even called Jehovah's Witnesses at the time.
 

The location of the great crowd is given to us in Revelation 7:9  as "standing before the throne and before the Lamb".
Up until 1935, the WTS believed and taught that the great crowd was in heaven, a vast group of believers said to be not quite as faithful as the 144,000, but still heaven-bound, spirit-anointed, emblem-partaking, witnesses of Jehovah.
Now, I have heard some JWs call this belief  "crap" and "baloney", but the WTS says Russell and his followers who believed this were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to rediscover these Bible truths. (see http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144 ) And even after Russell's death and after Jehovah is said to have cleansed Russell's followers and appointed them in 1919 as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, they still believed this.
But then in the early 1930's there was a third class of believers invented by the WTS President at the time, Joseph Rutherford.  He called them Jonadabs, or Johanadabs, and identified them as a group of believers whose future destination was not heaven but earth.  During a speech Rutherford gave at a 1935 convention, he asked those of this group to stand up.  Then he pointed to them and announced that they were the great crowd.
Think about that for a minute.  Do you wonder why there might have been a sudden hush at the convention?  It's said there was one.  Probably from an intake of breath from those who had believed prior to this that they were members of the great crowd and had stayed seated when those who believed they would be on earth had stood up at Rutherford's invitation.  Or maybe from the whooshing sound of the doors of heaven closing in their faces.
 

Acts 24:15 there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 24:15 there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Let's take a look at the Bible evidence Russell had been saying would prove him right about the end of the Gentile times. This is from his book called "The Time Is At Hand" which he wrote in 1889:

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove:
Firstly , That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.
Secondly , It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.
Thirdly , It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.
Fourthly , It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.
Fifthly, It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.
Sixthly, It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:20)  The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity.  But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by m and t on the Chart of the Ages (see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general.
Seventhly, It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings.  Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"--civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay. Available online at http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/books-and-tracts/ and http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf
So, these are the events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended.  These events are the evidence that would prove October 1914 was the correct date Biblically for the end of the Gentile times.  Perhaps someone who feels strong enough spiritually to defend him or her self biblically could show which, if any, of these events took place.
 

How would you know? Are you familiar with his daily habits, deeds, his beliefs?
 

Precisely! When I was looking at the Bible's teaching about Jesus' Return/Parousia/Coming with fresh eyes all those years ago, it was a 'slap head' moment being scripturally led to the same conclusions as you have outlined in your past few posts. You've explained it so well. 

It is difficult to be simplistic when answering your question because the word, especially in the hands of Paul's epistolary injunctions, has been invested with a nobility that is not seen among other words that connect with biblical salvation. Indeed, were we to remove this word from the NT, there would be no Christianity. We need not indulge in a detailed word study of this term, since the Watchtower itself has seen no need to do so, but suffice it to say that:
1The original Greek word is χαρις - charis - and it occurs 155 times in the New Testament
2. Because of its recurrent usage in various contexts, there is no single way in which we can translate the term
3. Indeed the RNWT translates it 15 different ways [among them: Favour- Lu 1:30, Gracious - Lu 4:22, Undeserved Favour - 1 Peter 3:7 etc]
4. Every translation is compelled to do the same thing. My own Bible of choice - The NASV - translates the word twelve separate ways.
The reason for this multiplicity of translations is because the original word - χαρις - meant, from the fifth century BC, anything that affords "joy, pleasure, delight" from whence various meanings developed, including grace [as in poise] favour, gratitude,  thankfulness, and kindness, among others.
While it is true that many of these meanings in non-biblical literature are found in the NT, it is only when we are confronted with the way Paul wields this majestic word, that we enter into a world endowed with utterly indescribable  gravitas and splendour. He uses it no less that 107 times [69% of the time] very often to define in human terms that which is indefinable. When you confront this word as powered by the Holy Spirit, which was in Paul, you realize that you  are gazing into the very chasm of infinity, because Paul uses this word for our very God, and the Saviour, Himself.
Now to answer your question:
What did John mean when he used the word twice at Jo 1:16::
"We all received from his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness"
Apart from an unfortunate woodenness of expression, is the RNWT, the best way to translate this verse? Although it it is certainly not wrong, I believe it is not.
First of ll, it can give a misleading impression, that the word, in Christian terminology, has something  to do with being "undeserved". Reading Paul, we can't help but believe that it is not that we are undeserving of God's kindness, but that we simply do not merit it in the first place. We can never earn God's χαρις, because if we could, χαρις would no longer be χαρις.[Ro 11:6] Thus it is through this enduring quality of Divine favour that that which is unmerited is  conveyed to believers.
I feel "unmerited favour", if one is to "open" the word "Grace", is better. I would prefer, however, to dignify "Grace" with a Christian immortality, as others have done. It is the single best way to have a word-for-word alternative for the Greek and English.
Whether the RNWT translation is better than this,
"From His abundance we have received more and more grace"    [Modern Language Bible]
I leave to the reader.
 
   

I read this recently in a Christian book catalog and wanted to share it here:
Grace -- More than we deserve, Greater than we imagine.

Melinda, you had indicated that Jesus would have had in mind both believers and unbelievers in "this generation".  In view of what you're studying this week in the book, "God's Kingdom Rules", would you care to revise your answer to now exclude unbelievers?
 16. "This generation." Did Jesus have in mind unbelievers? No. Consider his audience. Jesus related this prophecy to a few apostles who had "approached him privately." (Matt. 243) The apostles would soon be anointed with holy spirit. Note also the context. Before he spoke about "this generation," Jesus said: "Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." Jesus' anointed followers-not unbelievers-would see the things he foretold and would discern their significance, namely, that Jesus "is near at the doors." Therefore, when Jesus spoke of "this generation," he had in mind his anointed followers.

 

In view of what you are studying in "God's Kingdom Rules" this week.........
 
2 What about the greatest event ever to occur in the history of the world? That event has touched millions of lives. Yet, it took place out of human view. We refer, of course, to the birth in heaven of God's Kingdom, the long promised Messianic government that will soon bring this whole world system to its end.  
......you can see why I was pleasantly surprised by your replies.
Do either of you feel you should revise your initial reply?

This is just my opinion, trying to be logical about it: Anyone with the right qualifications (long years of faithful service, spirituality,  being of the anointed, and rubbing shoulders with the right people) can become a member of the GB. Besides that, there really is nothing "special" about any members of the GB. I believe any JW who knows their Bible can come to the same conclusions as the GB, and I am sure there are hundreds of brothers and sisters who have already, before it ever becomes an "official" teaching, come to the "right" conclusion about a specific subject themselves. I don't want to brag, but it has happened to me several times. (And I can't even say my Bible knowledge is THAT good). So does that mean I was spirit directed? Of course not. No more than the members of the GB are. But somebody on earth has to take the lead of course. It would also be good however if the "leaders" were able to humbly accept mistakes and not feel the need to have to "appear infallible" because everybody knows they are not anyway.  I am aware that they are concerned with "the sheep in their care not losing their confidence in them". Because I guess if that happened everything would come crumbling down? I don't really think so. You mentioned the "overlapping Generation Theory" that was so "masterfully" explained by Br. Splane. The truth is that IF 587 was the TRUE date of Jerusalem's desolation, that would buy us 20 more years, and if we assumed a generation to be 100 years it might make the  "overlapping" unnecessary. We have "dug" ourselves in so deep with 1914 (now with the Kingdom book) would going back on that date cause the "sheep to lose confidence in the slave"? I don't know how others feel, but I don't think so. After all, is being in the Truth about dates, or is it about our relationship with Jehovah, and our trust in Him? I wonder if the insistence on 1914 is merely to "save face" or is it because the slave REALLY believes 607 is the correct date? On the other hand, no one can deny that 1914 really was a pivotal date in world history. This cannot be said so much about 1934 except that Hitler appointed himself Fuhrer in October of that year.....How about Hitler becoming Fuhrer in 1934 being the direct opposite of Christ who would have been made King in 1934, and Satan who was hurled out of heaven exerting his influence on him (Hitler) to start WW2? Doesn't sound any more unbelievable to me than an overlapping generation ....

That's exactly what the level of emphasis already implies here! Even if we cannot always pick up that level of emphasis out of the expression [οὐ μὴ] alone, it alerts us to the idea that there is a "confident assertion" being proposed, and the next verse tells us that the emphasis was indeed intended to instill extra confidence in the prediction about the generation not passing away. (In this case, the confidence is that under no circumstances will this generation have died off before the stones of the Temple area are thrown down.) That level of confidence appears in the next verse. I'll choose Luke's version below for comparison, because sometimes if an additional meaning is appropriate, it shows up in the other gospel accounts:
(Luke 21:31-33) 31 Likewise also you, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all things happen. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.
Of course I also used Luke's version to show that the arrival of Kingdom of God has clearly not already happened during the generation, or at the beginning of the generation, as our doctrine requires, but arrives after these things have occurred.
There are some similar constructions of the idea that probably give the exact sense of Matthew 24:34:
(Matthew 10:23) . . . for truly I say to you, you will by no means [οὐ μὴ] complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
(Matthew 16:27-28) 27 For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior. 28 Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all [οὐ μὴ] until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”
(Mark 9:1) . . .“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all [οὐ μὴ] until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.”
(Luke 9:27) 27 But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all [οὐ μὴ] until first they see the Kingdom of God.”
A couple of these verses were referencing the fact that some of the apostles were given a direct visionary experience or revelation of that Kingdom of God, and a couple of them were in direct reference to the time when "no stone would be left on top of another, and not be thrown down." While the Temple destruction was not the final judgment, it was treated as another vision or revelation of that same final judgment which could now immediately follow at any time after the judgment on the Jewish system of things.
All the Bible contradictions that derive from the Watch Tower's traditional view about the parousia (since before 1879) can easily be resolved by understanding that Jesus' "presence" begins at the end of this generation. It is the only solution that works for both the judgment on the Jewish system of things and the final judgment on the world-wide Gentile system of things. 1914 is therefore superfluous, in addition to directly contradicting Jesus' words about the times and seasons being in the Father's jurisdiction.
It also resolves the idea of the "generation" perfectly, because Jesus refers to the fact that the stones of the Temple would indeed come crashing down within the lifespans of many of those who heard him predict it. It would not be just a dwindling remnant. And of course Jesus was right, it wasn't just a dwindling remnant. These things were predicted around 33 CE and occurred between 66 and 70 CE, only 33 to 36 years into the future. By no means did that generation pass away within 36 years; many lived to see it. No one had to come up with some means of making it work with a two-phase generation, or by some other meaning imposed upon the term.

And maybe follow up with, "Does anyone believe there's an even greater event than this.....from the Bible, not the paragraph.....an event that caused rejoicing and singing in heaven" (as Melinda pointed out) (Read Luke 2:10-14).
 

My assessment is purely based on what you have presented in answer to my question. Nothing more.
Then how could Russell and Rutherford have been misled about Christ's presence, if they were also, not only part of His people, but claimed chosen leaders of His people? The attempts to mislead Russell were successful, since he died believing the wrong thing about Jesus' presence.
If you are arguing that wrong beliefs don't separate a true and sincere believer from God's love, then surely the same standard would apply to other Christian churches and their mistaken beliefs, would it not?
That's an assertion. What evidence do you have that this occurred in 1914?
Alternative explanations center on social and political upheavals rather than invisible super-human causes. Regarding solutions, until there is a cataclysmic extra-terrestrial/super-human intervention, humans in the here-and-now will have to muddle through and find solutions of their own.
How do you know what Satan thinks about publicity or if it aligns with Oscar Wilde's view?