TrueTomHarley

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes it can have an impact. But we mustn't forget that demons too move with the times and adapt their methods. I doubt they would try to convince an atheist of their existence for example. In the "enlightened" western world, especially within more rational cultures the experience with demons like in Jesus' day is limited. Unless you're an Italian Catholic it appears. It's something that people like to get entertained by more than anything.

When I asked a Vietnamese publisher I knew well about demons in his home village, he answered matter-of-factly that they could be easily found outside the populated areas and they made a lot of trouble. I'm willing to guess that he is not nuts, because such reports are a dime a dozen in less developed places. 

Why do they not manifest themselves in the more educated areas? A perfectly reasonable explanation to me is that they deliberately lie low so that the educated people can continue to think themselves superior and look down upon the 'ignorant' and declare their 'education' is the be-all and the end-all. Is it that way? Dunno. But I see nothing absurd with it. The Devil wants to mislead. Why should he care how he does it? Why should he be expected to use the same tools everywhere?

Brother Smurf is giving the public talk tomorrow. I'm going to run these points by him and see what he thinks.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

In other words, you prefer your food served in regulated fashion; after all, you pay for it with your donations and dedication (surrendering your life) to the organization.

Well - I think that's a pretty harsh assessment. 

Look, what you appear to want me to weigh in on is a family feud. You claim to be one of the anointed and you are mad that the GB anointed are not the anointed ones I should be listening to - they are the anointed from the wrong side of the tracks.

I am not of the anointed. Therefore, if we stick with the model I think we both agree with, someone is going to be delivering spiritual food for me. If I have to choose, they win hands down, lady, not you.

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your replies are in effect ..

" oh yeah?

 Oh Yeah?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH? "

YEAH!

Moreover, except for one jab, the reply I made before that provoked a rebuke from you that I should 'grow up' was well-reasoned and respectful. So it must be the jab that made you mad, which was an observation of how our lovable cartoon characters, Caleb and Sophia, despite their tender years, still come off as more mature than you.

Do I back down from that assessment?

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I noticed that once again, AS ALWAYS ... you refused to address any actual issue I brought up, this time by devolving into an absurd extrapolation about the "12 dopes".

Actually, I think that is the answer.

I did start it as a joke, you are right. But I also recognized that, at its root, it was the answer. Jesus didn't do it. Judas stole from the money box. A simple account system would have caught him. Yet Jesus never did it.

Expanding, we have 1 Corinthians 6:2 

do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to try very trivial matters? Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not matters of this life?

If the holy ones back then were to be entrusted with our spiritual lives, were they incapable of handling 'unrighteous riches?'

Accounting methods are rather strict now in the congregations. Two brothers count all donations from the contribution box. Two sign off. It is all under the supervision of the Secretary. It is similar at the circuit level. Are we to imagine it disappears above the circuit level? What disappears is anyone feeling they have an obligation to report such things to you. In your case, I can easily understand it. If you twist undeniably good deeds to make them seem vile, exaggerate any missteps, and ignore any mitigating factors, and without exception impute bad motives, what would you do when you found they upgraded from Pepsident toothpaste to Crest?

Should they report? I guess you could make a case for it. But I think the greater case is for not doing it, in view of 1 Corinthians 6. It's not the exact same thing, but in principle it is.

What is public accounting? It is a requirement imposed by government upon public corporations. Does it work? It can be circumvented. A relative of mine works for a publicly traded company which recently bought another publicly traded company. His company is a very well known name, and the purchased company is well known to industry groups. It turns out that the purchased company managed to conceal billions of dollars of fraud, despite public accounting, and the buyer is now in danger of going under. (and the relative worries about his job)

In Rochester, Wegmans is the premiere company putting the city on the map. It replaces Kodak in that role. Arguably one might say Paychex instead of Wegmans, but I'll hang with Wegmans. People love Wegmans. It is Whole Foods where, if you plan, you can avoid spending your whole paycheck. (if you don't - watch out! - but with minimal fuss, you can) It has been called the best run grocer in the country and perhaps the world. There are 70-80 stores in the eastern U.S. Whoever does the ratings - is it Forbes? - consistently ranks it among the top ten best places to work in the entire country.

It is a private corporation and never reports to the public. Does that mean it keeps no accounts? No. It just doesn't feel the obligation to report to the rank and file.

The demand to render public accounting, to me, seems but a manifestation of another form of human self-rule - in particular, democracy. It is faith that the people should scrutinize every nickel spent and that is the only way to keep those running the show honest. As the examples above show, it is not necessarily a valid premise. It is easily circumvented.

I was joking when I said we could smell fraud when Anthony Morris upgrades to a bigger dorm room, but once again, there is truth to it. Let there be some evidence of chicanery before you assume your democratic method is the be-all and end-all. If they released financial reports they would have to add layers and layers of Bethel experts to defend themselves against countless people like you that simply want to take them down and use any possible pretext to do it. It would be rather like the Mueller investigation, which is the continuation of an effort that has lasted almost a year now to dig up evidence of wrongdoing with regard to the President and Russia. So far they have found none, but the mandate is unlimited and is not confined to Russia, (this is my understanding, but I could be wrong) Since the POTUS is human, they will certainly find something in time, and will attempt to use it to take him down - which is the sole object in the first place. Should Bethel do the same for its enemies? They just want to take it down.

The line that invariably gets the largest applause at the Regional Convention is: "Would you like to convey your greetings to Bethel?" It is obvious why that is. People look around them and see evidence everywhere that whatever donations they have made are being spent wisely. The many examples referred to in the previous post prove that to them. They don't feel the need to monitor Bethel for crooks and they are confident that, should crooks appear, the overall upright character of the organization will handle it.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Oh, and TTH .....

GROW UP

You're joking!!

if anyone but you said this to me, I would take it to heart. I might not do it, but I would take it to heart.

But YOU telling someone to grow up???

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It stuns me but not surprises me that you are comfortable with anonymous men in the upper echelons, handling perhaps 60 million dollars a month, and having total faith that NOBODY is skimming.  

FACTS!! EVIDENCE! THAT’S WHAT I WANT TO SEE!!

FACTS! DOES ANYBODY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE EXCEPT ME?

(WHERE HAVE I HEARD THIS RANT BEFORE?)

EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING – THAT’S WHAT I NEED TO SEE!!!

WHEN ANTHONY MORRIS UPGRADES TO A BIGGER DORM ROOM, THEN I WILL KNOW THE LIARS ARE ASCONDING WITH THE DOUGH!!!

Okay, that was tongue in cheek. The following is not. Not only is your demand brilliant and justified beyond belief – if the 12 dopes had followed it back in the day all history would be different and we’d be in paradise now!

Judas was stealing from the box. Why didn’t Jesus demand an account? The twelve were taking in the funds of the lowly and there was never an account!!!

...NOT ONCE

…EVER!

YOU HEARD ME – EVER!!!!

IT’S OUTRAGEOUS!!!

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. 11 You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” 12 It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth.

I've never thought of the verse that way. I like that take.

They may no longer do anti-types at Bethel, having had too many blow up in their face, but that doesn't mean I don't do them. Ralph Kramden, the hefty loud-mouthed bus driver of the 'Honeymooners' TV show, is the antitypical Nebuchadnezzar.

Each show he began by blustering. Each show he was totally humiliated. Each show he was contrite at the end. And each new show he totally forgot the lessons learned from the one before. So it is with Nebuchadnezzar.

And what is it with Nebuchadnezzar and the magic-practicing priests? He picks a fight with them right out the gate in chapter 2 of Daniel:

49 minutes ago, Anna said:

Reminds me of Joseph Smith translating the golden tablets

Hey lady, what is it with you and those Mormons?

12 hours ago, Witness said:

The “good news” will not reach all of “Israel” before the son of Man comes; I believe he will see that it is taken care of without the need of a showy display.   Matt 10:23;28:20; Rom 9:6; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Isa 10:17-23; Matt 24:30,31; Rev 7:4

32 minutes ago, Witness said:

When you read the scriptures, let me know.

I'm sorry, @Witness, I just can't do it. Count it as my weakness if you must. I just can't suffer you clobbering me with scriptures that do nothing but continue your harangues. The Governing Body can hardly be accused of subtlety, but even they do not punctuate every sentence with myriad scriptures. They instead recommend daily Bible reading, then they assume the familiarity that comes therefrom and do not have to quote a Bible verse every time they tie their shoe.

We have a verse heading your list that we won't get done before the end comes, which you appear to take to mean we should therefore do nothing. Then there are some verses to advance your constant complaint that the bad annointed ones have wrestled the teaching spotlight away from you and the other good annointed ones. I just can't suffer through it. Sorry.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I see by that comment that billions of dollars in contributed money to the Society, with ABSOLUTELY NO ACCOUNTING WHATSOEVER to the contributors is agreeable to you.

The "accounting" is the Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls sprouting up like mushrooms in areas that can ill-afford them.

The "accounting" is the disaster relief that gets the job done while many outsiders are bumping into one another like Keystone Cops.

The "accounting" is the annual convention held some 200 times around the globe, supplemented by every means of video technology, and other televised venues.

The "accounting" is the Bible translation and distribution so that the poor family head in the Congo can have a Bible even for free, rather than be stuck with a 200 year old turkey of a translation that he cannot afford because nobody of the religious world dreams it possible to circumvent the commercial world's distribution system.

The "accounting" is the lovable childlike cartoon characters Caleb and Sophia who nonetheless come off as more mature than you.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I scare a lot of people, TTH ... but YOU are one REALLY scary Dude.

That even scares ME ... that someone can even THINK like that.

What scares me is that you can see all this and still scream that someone is picking your pocket.

43 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

It is an unrealistic perception to believe God must choose man’s way to get his will done. 

 

That's why Jesus told his disciples to sit on their rear ends. Anything they might do would be 'man's way,' they being men.

6 minutes ago, Witness said:

Did you read the scriptures I attached (one has been repaired) or do they bore you?

Do you mean the misapplied ones?

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The “good news” will not reach all of “Israel” before the son of Man comes; I believe he will see that it is taken care of without the need of a showy display.

What is this?   

'If it requires us to do any more than come out of our Quonset hut, it is God's problem.'

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The GB reside in comfort, their physical needs are met.  Why are they any more worthy than anyone else, to receive physical comfort?

Because you must not muzzle the ox while it is threshing.

I don't use the expression "bitter apostate." It seems to me a stereotype which does not always hold true. But  sometimes it is exactly the proper expression.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

with the recent multiple Earthquake's and Hurricane's devastations .... soon enough ... we will all know.

That "Rainy Day" of widespread catastrophe is HERE, NOW!

About a year from now ... WE WILL ALL KNOW.

So. You are reduced to saying: "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." They have knocked it out of the park thus far on disaster relief. 'Yeah, (mutter mutter) but surely this new tough pitcher will strike them out'

They know it is hopelessly out of the reach of many third world congregations to afford their own Kingdom Hall, and they are thrilled to know their funds are spent thereby. Even @James Thomas Rook Jr., who rails about giving up local control of his money, probably does not begrudge that.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Of course not ... I do not begrudge that, as some Bethel Branch offices are 100% subsidized, although it has never been explained or accounted for above the level of the "Circuit Assembly".

My mistake. It appears that you do begrudge it.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what you are failing to grasp is that while YOU say, and they say they do not ask for money, I have just shown you that they DO in fact ask for money

Moreover, the confidential letter that you quote as though experiencing sexual climax does no more than expand on the consideration already announced publicly. Witnesses are well used to hearing about how that this or that circuit expense will be met if everyone contributes such and such an amount. This is always followed by the clarification that it is not suggested each member pony up that amount, but rather that the congregation in aggregate do so.

What your 'secret letter' reveals is that even that fair policy is not held fast to. Elders know their flock. A poor congregation can lessen their share. A well-off congregation can increase it. Ours increases it regularly because @The Librariantells them I make a bundle off my books, the meddling hen. But others lessen theirs.

Any Witness stumbling across your coup de grace will come away with increased respect for Bethel's consideration. They will also not be surprised. For decades they have heard about their surpluses benefiting other lands with deficits. They know it is hopelessly out of the reach of many third world congregations to afford their own Kingdom Hall, and they are thrilled to know their funds are spent thereby. Even @James Thomas Rook Jr., who rails about giving up local control of his money, probably does not begrudge that. 

You consistently try to advance the notion that Witnesses are being fleeced by their organization. You consistently have your ears pasted back. In the end you are reduced to saying 'well - you have your opinion. I have mine.' It gets old.

6 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Very cool!  Is it worth reading do you think? 

Yes. But it is like most classics - very slow and cumbersome in its developing, but all the more gripping when it gets to action and emotional pull on that account. I didn't actually 'read' it. I listened to it via Books on Tape while working a hum-drum job.

An entire chapter, the 3rd I think, is dedicated to the architectural details of Paris during that time. Or maybe it is just the architectural details of that church - I forget which.

28 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Without a doubt, there is much more to Paris than meets the eye.

I liked "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" where Hugo explained that the number of floors beneath the surface of the church was roughly the same as those above.

54 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

quit making excuses, your cognitive dissonance is showing. 

And please do not quote this cognitive dissonance nonsense, for it is no more than:

'You do not agree with me. Therefore you must be suffering massive cognitive dissonance.'

52 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Hey, wasn't there something about money in this weeks meeting? Something about the average amount a publisher should be contributing? And you say they don't ask for money.......lol

What is it with your infantile obsession over this? Do you expect me to gasp at discovering they know what money is?

In your 'secret letter' that you gleefully post, you somehow manage to ignore how the elders may choose to adjust any contribution total up or down depending upon the economic abilities of the congregation. Nobody running an organization puts less emphasis on specific money donations than does the Watchtower. 

More telling is the fact that, at that same meeting, finances were atypically discussed at length, yet you somehow do not even notice it: From the God's Kingdom Rules book, the subject has, at long last, got around to 'how the work is funded':

ON ONE occasion, Brother Charles T. Russell was approached by a minister of the Reformed Church who wanted to know how the activities of the Bible Students were managed.

“We never take up a collection,” explained Brother Russell.

“How do you get the money?” asked the minister.

“If I tell you what is the simplest truth you will hardly be able to believe it,” replied Russell. “When people get interested in this way, they find no basket placed under their nose. But they see there are expenses. They say to themselves, ‘This hall costs something . . . How can I get a little money into this thing?’”

The minister looked at Brother Russell in disbelief.

“I am telling you the plain truth,” continued Russell. “They do ask me this very question, ‘How can I get a little money into this cause?’ When one gets a blessing and has any means, he wants to use it for the Lord. If he has no means, why should we prod him for it?” *

² Brother Russell was indeed telling “the plain truth.” God’s people have a long history of making voluntary contributions to support true worship. In this chapter, we will examine some Scriptural examples of this along with our modern-day history. As we consider how Kingdom activities are being financed today, each of us would do well to ask, ‘How can I show my support for the Kingdom?’

And there is much more. Whereas you do not hesitate to publish confidential letters, I am reluctant to publish excerpts from public books out of regard for copyright law. I don't think I have done it before. I do so now only to address your childish tantrum. Of course any organization uses money - any ten-year-old knows it . The real point is that no one seeks it less obtrusively or stewards it more wisely, even with techniques that your colleague in arms, @James Thomas Rook Jr., rails about, coming from the other side, where he tries to portray wise stewardship as stealing 'his' Kingdom Hall. He didn't really 'give' anything, did he? He just put his assets in another pot that he wants not to let go of. 

Your leaked letter makes us look good, not bad, as you have hoped. An ungodly organization would say "put the screws to them, no matter what!" Ours says "the elders may choose to raise or lower the amount based on the economic abilities of the congregation." And should their goal comes up short nonetheless, they simply readjust the goal, confident that those of greater means will make up for the deficiency of those of lesser means.

58 minutes ago, Anna said:

The Mormons (what is it that I've got with the Mormon's - I seem to bring them up all the time)

I have an entire Mormon category on my blog. And it isn't all negative. Though we are anything but "two peas in a pod," there are some similarities. Such as a child superstar of the 70's. Our Michael Jackson soared far higher than their Donny and Marie Osborn, but he singed his wings on the sun and plummeted to ruin, leaving us with only the two Mormon dullards.

Would you be content with that relationship with your employer? - hope that you may get a 'green handshake?' @Shiwiii

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Since there are more population centers and more high value properties, we have now changed the meaning of "great earthquakes" to mean earthquakes that take a great many lives or produce a lot of destroyed "value."

Yes. Does God pump his fist at the Ritchter Scale - that it is the best thing since sliced bread?

34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But the Insight book has not yet been corrected:

They're covering all bases. Recent doozies made them rethink, as it did me.

50 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

2, 4, 6, 8

What else can we VENERATE?

Caleb and Sophia!

This is just plain dumb. When you start railing about Donald Duck or Fred Flintstone I'll know you are sincere.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe.

If you were going to put your throne somewhere, the Pleiades is the place to be. I'd put mine there.