TrueTomHarley

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

i think that can be applied and on religious sphere. Flip-flop with teachings and doctrines is nothing else than "spinning"

Nobody ever said that that would not happen. And if they ever did, they changed it.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Notice that Jesus says in Matt. 28:19, “into the name” the Greek word ὄνομα (onoma) is singular, one name, three Persons!

Pretty flimsy 'evidence' upon which to rest one's central doctrine, imo.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Or do you mean…you hope?

The internet is inherently the land of the liars and you are silly to take it too seriously. You cannot possibly know who's who. This is not to say that he is. Perhaps I am. Or you.

Some on the internet are geniuses. Some on the internet are absolute morons, but because they can make letters of the alphabet appear onscreen, they are perceived as smart.  I don't put him in either category. I haven't figured him out. He weighs in, more or less, on the side I think is correct. That's enough for me. I don't screen every word.

Why anyone would debate at length with someone ambiguous is beyond me.

Actually, I meant 'spinning' that might not translate, for in the U.S. it has only been applied to political matters in the last decade or so - perhaps that new definition has not caught on with other lands.

Spin (from thesaurus.com)

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Spinning is very spacious expression :)))))

It is also American. I'm not sure it translates well.

56 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Who is John Galt?"

He is the founder of Guelph Ontario, where my wife and I visited not long ago.

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I find it AMAZING that of what I posted ... you ONLY took exception to the bumper sticker.

How many bytes do you think I have here?

Have you removed yours yet?

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

In truth, JW Library is an excellent technical achievement. Considering how little we knew in the 1970s about technology (at Bethel) and how the entire computer department was still having trouble getting anything finished correctly well into the 1980s, the Watchtower Library CD is an amazingly good piece of technology.

As far as I can see, that is how theocracy works. When they need an expert at Bethel, they reach into the ranks and get one. It is the same as 1922 when they had a pile of printing equipment that nobody knew how to use. They found a lifelong printing professional in the ranks and he taught them all they needed to know. It is probably how the Bible translation was accomplished, or at least aided. The reason it all works is that Jehovah's people do not hoard their knowledge - they regard it as their gift to bring to the altar.

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Is there bias in our translation? Yes.

Of course. Nobody produces a translation and says "our translation sucks." I'm amazed people expect that should happen. Translators anywhere defend their translation and laud it's virtues.

17 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

When the only reviews are negative, I've felt the same need to get in and counter with something a bit over-the-top positive

To a large degree, that's why I started blogging. 'Why should scoundrels own the internet?' I asked. I don't even fear going a bit over-the-top at times - though I hope not routinely. Heaven knows, they do. 

Of course, they always will own the internet, just as you-know-who owns the fence. But here and there perhaps one can poke a hole through the wall. It need not be monolithic.

27 minutes ago, Cos said:

Mr. Smith,

 

What kind of double talk is that? If you are not a JW then say so, why play charades?

Sooo....you are trying to figure out Mr. Smith, are you? Good luck on that! He is our secret weapon - I think.

On 9/30/2017 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:

Mr. Harley,

 

See Matt. 28:19,  2 Cor. 13:14

So. Every time a collection of three is mentioned, we are to infer that they are equal? I think not.

The statement remains: "Imagine: The only direct mention of a Trinity [the 1 John 5:7 insert] is either fraudulent or inept." 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I do not see what is your purpose to defend such manner of corporation and their leaders.

"He was probably giving you your highest chance of success, for the Bible is more respected in the country than is the JW religion. Attach your refusal to the highest cause possible if you want to maximize chances of success." 

Why should anyone try to spin a 'good' as a 'bad?'

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps a technical point, but the Watchtower Officers during WWI were charged and convicted of sedition against the United States of America ... because they were GUILTY of sedition against the United States of America when at WAR.

If that were the case, they would have been pardoned after the war. Instead, they were exonerated. Their convictions were reversed.

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If he is one of Jehovah's Witnesses giving such high praise ... it can be attributed to agenda driven politics.

To a degree, maybe.  Having said that

19 hours ago, Kurt said:

I have a Master's Degree in Theology and have studied many bibles, as well some translation studies of Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic.

Let us assume this statement is true. Does this increase or decrease his qualifications? Most would agree it increases them.

What if he finds the translation so good that he sides with the people who have produced it? Suddenly his qualifications vanish?

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If he teaches religion in a college, etc., and is NOT a JW, and gives such high praise, as theologian and scholar Jason BeDunn did when he wrote the book "Truth in Translation .." , and reviewing the pre-2003 New World Translation with very high praise,  his credibility increases DRAMATICALLY.

What if DeBuhn became a Witness? Is he suddenly a moron?

It is like reading Consumer Reports and selecting the best make of car. Suddenly you are unqualified to comment on that car?

Admittedly, reviews like @JW Insider mentioned are a bit much. Our people can get funny on the internet. But even that is excusable, for anti-Witness trolls come out of the woodwork at any mention of JWs and they feel they ought to weigh in to counter that.

On a personal note, 'Survival into a New Earth' was one of my favorites. To the extent things there were billed as anti-types (if they were - I don't remember) they have been swept aside. To the extent they were "this reminds us of that" they are brilliant.

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Counsel from late brother Miloš Knežević was because not to bring problems to society in YU, so from other perspective we can talk now how WTorg was/is ready, determined to instruct rank and file members in that way to protect corporation, and to put all responsibility on "personal decision"

No. I do not think your take is correct. 

There is no way proscecuting authorities are not going to know what religion you came from, and this will make "problems" for them regardless of what you say. That is especially true when young men of that religion routinely refuse military service as they come of age. It won't matter what they say - the fact that they come from a certain religion will cause problems for that religion in the eyes of YU government.

He was probably giving you your highest chance of success, for the Bible is more respected in the country than is the JW religion. Attach your refusal to the highest cause possible if you want to maximize chances of success.

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

So if anyone could provide a single, verifiable, accurate, unbiased report on actual suicide rates, comparing Jehovah's Witnesses with other groups, please post as a separate thread to allow an informed debate.

Try JTR.com

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In those time first man of Yugoslavia Bethel  (in Belgrade) told me to not tell that i refuse military service because i am JW, but because my "bible trained conscience",

That sounds like good counsel to me.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

in Belgrade (ex Yugoslavia)

My father-in-law was born in Zagreb. My son has been to Belgrade many times.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I get 3 years prison time,

I have never been imprisoned. I do not know if I would hold up well or not.

26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Except that in our case, all of us do represent ourselves as ministers, which to the world is pretty much the equivalent of clergy.

While we may represent ourselves this way, few in the world take us up on it. Instead, they view us as a church whose members "have to" go door to door. The typical Witness in their eyes is a church member, not a person of the clergy.

Anything done can be done better. Anna pointed to new policies that offer improvement. Was it irresponsible not to have done it before? Who can say? There is nothing to compare it to. No other religion attempts what Witnesses attempt - investigating wrongdoing for the sake of meting out discipline and protecting the worldwide congregation and presenting to God "a [clean] people for his name."

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

Probably more than half the time, I'm guessing.

Please supply a few examples of church members, not clergy, who have been so identified.

Then do a search for the last 20 or 30 molesters arrested by police in your area. Tell me how many are identified by religion. It's a little work, but do it, if you maintain that a molester's religion is routinely reported.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

*coff*

Yes! No wonder you are coughing when you see the amazing accomplishment of those eight dear men you have pictured! 

Look at the witness they have given! And all of our brothers worldwide who wrote in have a share! And, of course, our 175K brothers in Russia are the real heroes. 

Note the two pronounced and permanent spikes in web traffic to jw.org following the April 20th verdict and the July 17th appeal! You have good reason to praise these men, @James Thomas Rook Jr. I understand why you would do it. Millions of people check to see if jw.org is truly extremist as reported. Of course, they see it is not. What an amazing service they have rendered to Jehovah - almost as much as certain ones who go online and do nothing but bitch!

However, James,, you should remember that they are but men, who give all glory to Jehovah. You should not be worshiping these guys.

4 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

If the organization's policies were effective, would we be seeing repeated sexual abuse in congregations?

You are asking the wrong question. Would you agree that it is a very common news event for molesters to be caught by authorities these days?

How often is the religious affiliation of the person reported?

Why? Or why not?

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But i would like to say this too. It is very shameful that progress in this, child molestation issue, was began to happen because "Worldly Court" initiative, investigations, judging.

This is a classic example of getting slammed for doing the right thing and should not be spun any other way.

The way you (as a faith) avoid such problems is to take no interest in the conduct of your members. Preach to them on Sunday  and let that be the end of it. If they apply it, they apply it. If they don't, they don't. It's no concern of yours as the pastor. That way, should any turn out to be molesters, you can never be made to look bad for investigating it because you never even learn of it.

God gets shortchanged that way because he expects a clean people, but who cares? He's God. Tell him to suck it up.

Witnesses alone investigate wrong conduct so as to keep the congregation clean, which God expects them to do. In the case of pedophiles, they investigate also to make sure one does not simply slip out of one congregation and into another. That is the sole purpose of any records kept.

If they have ever erred in any investigations, this should not be spun as a negative, for no one else even attempts it, though they all should.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

which contradicts the fact that the parousia comes as a thief, and a thief does not give a sign before he robs a house.

Unfortunately, after my experience, a thief could break down my door, yell "Peace and Security," and I would roll over and go back to sleep.

There's too many ways things can be spun. I leave it to others and focus on the work that is engrossing in its own right. i take the party line without fuss, but always tentatively, for maybe it will change someday.

Meanwhile....oops...sorry - just had to dodge a missile from RocketMan

12 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

that alone DISPROVES THE TRINITY,   If you have any common sense at all

I ever think the key fact is that the Trinity violates common sense. Everyone knows that, but not always the implication.

It means that the burden of proof will always be upon them, not us - as it is with anyone trying to sell someone any bill of goods that flies in the face of reason. Sometimes a thing that goes against common sense turns out to be true. But the threshold of proof required is always high.

At most, they can come up with a handful of verses which, in any other context but the Bible, would be instantly dismissed as 'figure of speech.' They read 'crocodile tears' in a book or magazine, and instantly catch the meaning. They read it in the Bible, and it is proof we are talking crocodiles.

They are firmly convinced but it is not from Scripture. Therefore, it must be from something else - who can say what? But it is not Scripture.

In my experience, if you don't make headway with them in ten minutes, you will make none in ten years.

There are some who, if they came to my door merely as themselves, I would run in terror.