TrueTomHarley

26 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

OK ... looking at the above replies ... I see we euphemistically will have to "agree to disagree" ...

When I said 'unfortunately, I think you have lost it,' I was not kidding. I was  a bit worried for you, and - I am internally conflicted to admit it - I am relieved to find that it is not so. Or is it?

I mean, that last remark was as long as it was just plain unhinged - comparing the Watchtower to Stalin, the Gestapo, and to ...... Vlad the Impaler?! 'Surely he has lost his mind!' I said, and I expected even your fellow opposers to sing - "and another one gone and another one gone. Another one bites the dust!"

Your period of silence after that last comment was, for you, astoundingly long. Or so it seemed to me. And now you are back. Where it was relief tinged with sadness, now it is sadness tinged with relief. Or is it the other way around?

Let's see, GF....You quoted 8 scriptures. Matt quoted 15.

You lose.

Especially do you lose if @Witnesscomes along and quotes 90. True, they will not be relevant and for that reason must be discounted 4 to 1. But what remains will still be enough to clobber the both of you put together 

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

... how do you think any sane, reasonable adult would see it?

Unfortunately, I think you have lost it. It would have been better had you listened to @Arauna. Perhaps it is not too late.

On October 14, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Nicole said:

The 53-year-old man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, 

I'd like to know what they are. 

This is a heinous crime he was found guilty in a court of law. Only the religion that he was once connected with - whether at present or 20 years ago is not specified - can be named.

Can anyone imagine this being said of Harvey Weinstein? - that he cannot be named 'for legal reasons?' And he hasn't even been tried yet. And why haven't we heard about his religion?

On 10/14/2017 at 9:22 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If Justice is being perverted, it can be plainly seen and documented, as it was clearly seen in the recent Russian Federation banning of Jehovah Witnesses Organization

If I want to, I can go to my County Courthouse and sit in the back and watch the daily administration of Justice.

They know this, and are therefore open, transparent, conscientious, and accountable.

... Unless they are following a script for political reasons ... but that too, can be watched, and is a lesson in itself.

While this is true in theory, in practice there are many caveats. 

What they know is that, while they will be watched, most people are ideologues who report only that which reinforces what they already thought. I would never trust a report from you, had you been in the audience. You would never trust one from me.

The courtroom is only so big. Are there not truly impartial ones present? There doesn't seem to be, or if there is, these are not the ones who issue reports. For example, one of the two San Diego stories repeats as background that Witnesses are prohibited from going to authorities. Since this is not true, and is a pretty blatant untruth, it casts doubt upon everything else she reports. Had she said that many Witnesses are disinclined to run to authorities, that would be one thing. But she says they are prohibited, where right on jw.org are plain statements that they are not. So she hasn't researched. She's been fed a line by someone and she simply parrots it.

The 'two-witness' policy is mentioned and heavily criticized. Is that ever not the case? Therefore the obvious 'practical' solution is to drop the policy and any attempt to look into wrongdoing - even the modified policy will not satisfy critics. Be like the greater religious world that takes no interest in the conduct of its members. Elders will thereby learn of few instances of abuse and the problem is solved from a liability point of view.

At some level, that is the intent of such criticism, IMO: Don't allow a religion to attempt to produce a clean people, for that involves 'judging' and 'lifting ones' faith above others as 'the true one.'' Don't allow it.

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Actually he has a pretty fit body, as I remarked to my husband, much to his amusement

There is such a thing as modesty and so I rarely spill. But for some time I have been the model for photos such as this.

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

What do these have in common:

HA! Bypassed college, I'll bet.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

This has nothing to do with Russian transcripts, so why not get a new thread started as the topic of appropriate ministry dress is an interesting one.

It is true, but that is the extent of my rebellion - right here on the World Forum - home of wayward Witnesses and a few good blokes. I wouldn't try to spin an entire thread out of it.

52 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Once again, don’t be like JWI, hmmm!

He is at the museum in London getting so smart and sucking up so much data I hate to think what he will do with it. 

53 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

C'mon Tom!

You have misunderstood my comment and it is my fault for not being more clear. 

If it was up to me, we would drop our emphasis on always being so immaculate in appearance. Just last week a householder gave me what he thought was a helpful tip that if we didn't dress to the nines routinely, our message would better resonate with the average Joe. 

When in the ministry, I dress as casually as I can without triggering alarms, for a full suit with shined shoes fails to do it with the average householder, IMO.. Having dressed down just a bit, I am content,. On a few beastly hot evenings last year,  I dispensed with a tie altogether in the ministry. 'Let them come out themselves and stop me,' I told myself.

I admit the overall picture is not going my way - it is just one of those things to adjust to and keep in perspective  - because I see fully attired brothers on the website trekking through the wilds where anyone else would don safari gear. This is only minor grousing - don't take it as anything more. I realize that it is a matter of showing respect and that you'd don't go slumming with the Lord. We just overdo it sometimes. To the extent formal dress is almost exclusively the realm of the political, legal and business worlds, I even think it feeds the perception of JWs being "corporate." @adminhimself would agree. 

I'd be happy if there was no correlation at all between photos of dress and lessons about Christian conduct.

Nobody has a problem with education. it is the assumption that it can only be had in the way the greater world ladles it out that Christians have a problem with. 

Many of the Witnesses accomplishments are at the top of the field. For example, the website translated into 900+ languages, which universally wins high praise, (save for that from religious enemies). One sources gushed on about how Wikipedia, Google, and Apple combined do not come close, and what a staggering accomplishment the site was.

Imagine if they knew that only rarely did persons involved have any 4-year college at all.

You acquire your education via the moral training of God's counsel to us. When, later on, you find you need some specialized secular training, you go out and get it - a la carte. You need not subject yourself to the world's model where they get to unscrew your head, pour in their accumulated wisdom, and screw it back on again. Their wisdom has not resulted in a fine world. Where it has resulted in fine things, it is usually technical know-how that you can pick up though other means without all the baggage. The world makes it challenging to get education this way, but with planning it can be done.

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Because we are about the same age and our religious background is the same and even in some other ways our inclinations are not dissimilar, I think you will agree with me that true justice demands such a person be put to death when his heinous crime is uncovered. The world has managed to persuade most that the transfer of money is the same as justice, and a rising star legal profession eagerly pushes that new truth.

You might have noticed that the subject of child abuse never came up in Russia, although everything but the kitchen sink was thrown at us otherwise. I asked a Russian brother about the justice meted out by authorities for child sexual abuse. 'Rather swift and harsh, I would say' he replied. I think that says it all. Also telling is that there are few with deep pockets in Russia. Thus the interest of those who would pursue justice in abuse matters cools.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So, please do  not blame school system for world's problems

Through most of my life I have heard the mantra: "the path to a better world is through education." It has become a bedrock staple of the West and unless grades are in the toilet, high school students in the West are shunted directly into college. So it is not unfair to ask to see this better world.

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study. 

It is the first series of Watchtower pictures I have ever seen in which a person starts well-dressed, finishes less so, and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

Do they have Milk Duds in the vending machines?

1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There are only two ways to have real friends ... spend time WITH them .. or BUY them. 

Never forget the difference.

Come, come, what is that supposed to mean? If you must buy them, they are not real friends.

Real friends are those (usually) with whom you share common interests and with whom personalities click.

44 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

" I don't understand it ... he had 465 Facebook Friends!"

I rather like the idea of Facebook friends or any correspondents on the internet. (and I do not take your joke as a jab at me, or at least not a mean-spirited jab at me, and likely nothing to do with me at all) They are not 'real' people - I know that - and my online rule is ever foremost in my mind: 'on the internet, everyone is a liar.' Still, you can get a feel for persons over time, like some, dislike others, and you can at any time strike up a topic weighty or trivial and have a response to bat about - you simply cannot do that as a regular course with real people, who must answer in real time, and who have many things on their plate. 

Social media does not have to be all about cats or plates of food.

But the online 'friends' don't take the place of real people and real friends. When I experimentally went on the apostate site for a few days and found myself deluged with demands to subject myself to cross-examination, I responded that I might not stay, for I had a real circuit full of real people who like me. They may be nuts to like me, but like me they do - and I them.

As far as I am concerned, it is a benefit of pure worship - real friends with real people.

Unfortunately, though the strip is remembered fondly, and for good reason, Capp himself is not. He was ever the womanizer. His own family had harsh things to say of him.

Just now, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In the 1930's and 40's it was the most popular comic strip in the world .... sigh .....

I feel like a rogue dinosaur.

For quite some time on my Facebook page I ran quotes from Wikipedia about Lil Abner. Some older friends commented on how they remembered and loved the characters. 

I always, always write my own material. But in this case, I simply quoted Wikipedia and left it at that.

And, no, don't ask to friend me. There is a part of me that would like that, but I fear you would not behave.

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and as far as my cartoon collection ... I think you are just Jealous

Given that a man feels he must have a cartoon collection, he cannot do better than the complete works of Gary Larsen and Scott Adams.

Only Al Capp would be an equal, of another generation.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

TTH:

Many legal firms have been bankrupted along WITH their clients over never ending litigation.

First of all, that is nonsense. These are legal professionals with no personal stake and if they are in any danger of getting hurt financially, they quit. The world today is a lawyer's playground - we all know it - and lawyers seek out culprits with deep pockets, so that they may transfer some of the contents therein to their own pockets. Sure, it is possible that the aggrieved party got his barber who does lawyer work on the side to represent him. More likely though, he responded to overtures of lawyers with deep pockets, like the ones who advertise on TV to sue a myriad of causes. 

I'd also appreciate if you didn't slobber over the civil courts as the ultimate font of justice. The justice it delivers is as much a by-product as it is the main event. If there are no deep pockets, the system does not bother. I'm not saying it is wrong to use the existing system, or that I wouldn't do it myself if aggrieved, necessarily. I just don't like to herald it as the ultimate source of justice. It is the source of wealth transfer which sometimes parallels    justice.

Because we are about the same age and our religious background is the same and even in some other ways our inclinations are not dissimilar, I think you will agree with me that true justice demands such a person be put to death when his heinous crime is uncovered. The world has managed to persuade most that the transfer of money is the same as justice, and a rising star legal profession eagerly pushes that new truth. Even the criminal system - by the way, why isn't this fellow in jail? - cannot deliver 'justice,' sentencing a rapist to a not overlong prison term, the last years of which  are appearances before the parole board, and the victims kin, who should be left to heal - are dragged into pleading why he should not be released, a battle that they face repeatedly and eventually lose. 

Lay off on the praise for the human court system, will you?

*the movie is a John Grisham novel, probably. If you knew as much about Bible principles and the new personality as you do about pop culture, you'd be a lot easier to take.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

On 9/14/2017 at 8:00 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Jehovah's Witnesses do not ignore education but they do redefine it. 

This is interesting thought!

It is also a true thought. 

If the greater world's education was worth the paper that its diplomas are printed on, it would have resulted in a better world than it collectively has. Its education gives exclusive attention to training the mind, and none (or little) to training the heart, with the apparent assumption that moral qualities will take care of themselves. As is painfully obvious by looking at the result, they don't.

Better to focus on training the heart, as divine education does, and then pick up secular education a la carte as needed.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am "average" person. Average job. Working since my age of 17, worked various jobs; bookbinder, metal worker, all kind of house jobs that people need, gardener, and last 12 years am janitor in one high school. Last 2 years went to extra education, and last month successfully finished it. Now have diploma for "business secretary" and this last two years working half time as janitor and other half as school administrator. And i like it. Little in school administration with papers and peoples, other part some fixing works, going to town on delivery jobs. Communicate with all sort and age of people.

This is more in the category of picking up job skills. No one not opposed to that, particularly since you did so after reaching an age of maturity.

On 10/13/2017 at 2:17 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Their startegy is to wear out any seekers of justice and to bankrupt them.

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

please provide some proof that Watchtower seeks to bankrupt those who seek redress through the courts

I don't want to let this go quickly because it is typical of how you start with something true and then use it as a platform to lie, or at least deliver unproven & harsh judgements. Nobody slaps Jesus in the face with his own counsel about being  slow to judge more than you. 

Your lie, in this case, is that the Watchtower seeks to bankrupt those seeking redress through the courts. It is not necessarily a lie. It may just be a ignorant accusation. Choose for yourself which it is. 

In fact, it is impossible to bankrupt a person in this manner, unless this case is very unusual. Deep pocketed legal firms take on these cases - the plaintiff incurs no expense whatsoever - in return for one third of any awarded amount. 

There is no question that Bethel has a significant mess on its hands. It turns out there was a real scoundrel in their midst who harmed several people. Whether the legal means employed is the best one or not I am not qualified to say. The point is that you, whose legal library consists of the complete works of Gary Larsen and the complete works of Scott Adams are not qualified to say either. 

It is a sad fact of human nature that the more ignorant a person is, the louder they are.

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I assume you DID spend about an hour reading the sad history of this case on Google.

Yes. I did. The fellow involved did despicable things, hurt many people and brought much reproach on God's name. 

But that has nothing to do with the question I posed.

Your assertion that Watchtower is intent on bankrupting the persons who seek redress though the courts must be regarded as another lie until you provide some proof of your statement.

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Their startegy is to wear out any seekers of justice and to bankrupt them.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How do you know this?

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I understand what I read ... whereas you do not.  It's stereotypical typical Lawyer strategy.

Yes, yes - you are smart. We know that.

Nonetheless, please provide some proof that Watchtower seeks to bankrupt those who seek redress through the courts