Malum Intellectus

Anna said:
Yes, I'm 68 years young. I would have thought you could figure that out from comments like, "I dun gradjiated 6th grade in 1963".
Apparently so.

Mr. Alan:
I am greatly savoring your exchange with Arauna. Truly, her grasp of science is dismally weak. I also appreciate the razor-sharp wit you display engaging one who is plainly not in your league.
What are your thoughts about the future of Darwinian evolution? Do you feel that your personality represents its pinnacle, or may we look forward to reaching even greater heights? 
Thank you, sir, for your work.
 

TrueTomHarley said:
Ooh, TTH is obviously jealous of my knowledge.
My "likes" are approximately like saying I like certain comments about witch-doctoring and astrology and Velikovskyism and all manner of goofy, nonsensical belief systems. For example I very much like what a JW-critical author said some 50 years ago:
<< A long acquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone.’ That is, most of their members, even their leaders, are not well educated and not very intelligent. Whenever their literature strays onto the fields of philosophy, academic theology, science or any severe mental discipline their ideas at best mirror popular misconceptions, at worst they are completely nonsensical. >>
Posters like TrueTomHarley and Arauna prove these sentiments in most every post.
Detriment? LOL! Kind of like skipping eating dog poop would be to my detriment.

Arauna said:
Good point. The JW religion indeed has a goodly component of mysticism as well as superstition.
     
I've answered all your challenges. You're just too stupid and dishonest to deal with the answers.
And of course, we again see that good old Orwellian doublethink and crimestop in action.
YOU spoke of mutations, not me. I said that natural selection weeds out the bad mutations, which you completely ignored.
You're so ignorant that you don't even know that natural selection weeding out bad mutations is the basis for some of the Society's arguments against evolution, because it results in the stablility of species over long periods.
You keep ignoring my challenge to explain the fact that big cats have been around for 5 million years. You ignore it because of Orwellian crimestop.
Um, the number is about 2 million.
I see that innumeracy characterizes you, too.
LOL! Try dealing with the big cats.

I had. Apparently you lack humour too 🙂

Bugger off, Tom.

Gone Away:
I very much appreciate your perspective, and wish I could be so cavalier ... but faith in Jehovah God and his Christ is much to be desired ... and faith in men who are duplicitous and dishonest continually for  a half century and more is idolatry.

Fred Franz was called the "Oracle" even while I was there at Bethel, although it was with the utmost respect until about 1978 when I first heard it used sarcastically. His very odd demeanor, and his own sarcastic and pontificating haughty manner, made him considered to be the channel of all "new truths" at the time. Knorr deferred to him to write his speeches. No "deep" book on prophecy could be written by anyone else even long after the failure of 1975 was obvious. No one would write on any prophetic subject (OT prophecy or Revelation) of any length without using Franz' previous writing as a basis. No one has really tried to replace "Revelation  - Its Grand Climax at Hand" yet, and it's going on 30 years since he died.
I worked directly with (for) Brother Schroeder when he as good as admitted that he wanted to be the next Fred Franz, assuming Fred Franz did not outlive him. Of course, that meant removing Raymond Franz who was the obvious but unassuming heir apparent. He privately expressed jealousy that Raymond Franz had worked on the Aid book. Schroeder tried his hand at coming up with "new truths" when he went abroad, especially his yearly trips to Europe. He came up with several ideas that would have been considered apostasy if promoted by anyone else, and nearly got in big trouble himself. He looked for areas where he could make his mark that he was "like" Fred Franz.
I don't know him, but I think there is talk that Brother Splane should now be seen as the primary one who needs to approve prophetic explanations. But fortunately it does not seem like he is involved exclusively as Fred Franz was. The committee is much safer.

True, but they were not even candid about this until 1988. The "candid" letter of 1977 never even mentioned "some Bible teachers."
It was quite similar to the counsel the previous year:
*** w76 7/15 p. 440 A Solid Basis for Confidence ***
BE CAREFUL TO KEEP A BALANCED VIEW 10 Jehovah’s word or message is true when it speaks about our entering into God’s rest now and remaining in it through the “great tribulation,” after which Christ’s thousand-year reign will transform the earth into a paradise garden. God’s word is indeed ‘sharp like a two-edged sword.’ It will show what we really are, revealing what our thoughts and the intentions of our heart are. Are we serving Jehovah God because we love him, trust him and have full confidence in what he says? Or are we ‘becoming weary in well-doing,’ looking for a certain date primarily as bringing a relief to ourselves, with little concern for the lives of other people? (Gal. 6:9) Are we appreciative of all the good things we have had from Jehovah and from association with his people? Have not the things we have learned helped us in our family lives? Do we not love the many genuine friends we have now gained as a result of knowing the truth?—Mark 10:29, 30. 11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible’s warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date. 12 What do Jesus’ own words show concerning the proper attitude as to the end—to look for a date, or what? He said: “Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.”—Luke 21:34-36. 13 Did Jesus mean that we should adjust our financial and secular affairs so that our resources would just carry us to a certain date that we might think marks the end? If our house is suffering serious deterioration, should we let it go, on the assumption that we would need it only a few months longer? Or, if someone in the family possibly needs special medical care, should we say, ‘Well, we’ll put it off because the time is so near for this system of things to go’? This is not the kind of thinking that Jesus advised. It was blamed on the selfishness of brothers looking for their own relief, some who had a mistaken view, but these "some" people obviously missed the point of the Bible's warnings due to their own "thinking" that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.
This is why I brought up the question of "honesty" in the title of another 1975 topic. Because the Society was willing to conceal their own responsibility for several years, evidently to avoid embarrassment, many brothers were very quick to follow their lead and also avoid embarrassment, claiming that they were never fooled into such wrong thinking. I noticed that by 1977, even brothers who cashed in insurance policies, put off dental work, went into debt, and even some who sold their houses in 1973 through 1975 quickly claimed that they never bought into all that talk about 1975. Within a few short years after 1980, I heard brothers begin claiming that there never was a 1975 problem except for just a few disgruntled brothers and ex-brothers who had been serving Jehovah with a date in mind. Even now, I have very close Witness relatives in responsible positions who lived through it but now believe that the Society "never really said anything about 1975," and that it was started by some of the brothers on their own.
 

A 1988 Yearbook example from one representative country explains it pretty well:
*** yb88 pp. 189-191 ***
All seemed well in the spring of 1975. The Bethel family moved into their spacious new facilities, and Brother Lloyd Barry visited . . .  to give the dedication talk. The 1975 service year ended with an outstanding field report—including 8,120 baptized that year. Thus, in just three years’ time 19,600 were baptized. Well over half of the . . .  Witnesses had been in the truth for less than three years. However, the first few months of the 1976 service year began with a marked decrease in publishers and home Bible studies. This downward trend was to continue for over three years, bottoming out in a 26-percent decrease in publishers, from 32,693 in August 1975 to 24,285 in November 1978. Memorial attendance dropped too, from over 68,000 in 1975 to 49,545 in 1978 [27 percent drop]. The brothers at the branch were perplexed. Would the trend be reversed? Of course, neither they nor the Society were just letting it slide by. The Society’s letter of April 4, 1977, stated:    "We hope the brothers are careful in their teaching. Evidently some were very strong on the 1975 date, and so a good foundation was not laid. The foundation, of course, should be faith in Christ Jesus and the ransom sacrifice, and the dedication should be with understanding.” A very candid observation indeed! Too much emphasis was placed on a date by some Bible teachers. Many newly baptized ones took up the truth on a wave of emotion. Even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. . . . The effect: apathy among the brothers. THE ROAD BACK, LONG BUT CERTAIN More than 24,000 Witnesses, solid in the faith, were not shaken by any date. Still, the road back to a new peak of publishers was to take eight long years and was not reached until August 1983. Very "candidly," the Society was still blaming the problem on "some Bible teachers." And the fact that newly baptized ones had taken up "the truth" based on a wave of emotion over a current falsehood. And the fact that even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. But if you look carefully, none of that was said in the 1977 letter, which only blamed it on the fact that "some were very strong on the 1975 date." Even the historical rewrite of this letter appearing in the 1988 Yearbook never blames it on the source, just some Bible teachers, some newly baptized ones, and some elders.

The question was:
"If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?"
The answer is:
"We" actually did ... exemplified by MANY things of record, which can be denied ... but it  is disingenuous.
During the run-up to 1975 the slogan was " .. STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75."
I have decided to merely try to do the best I know how ... consider 90% of theology to be encapsulated in James 1:27, TRY not to get "thrown under the bus", and where theology assumes cartoon characteristics ( Caleb and Sophia, Overlapping Generations, Blood fractions NOT being blood, and other silly stuff ...) , resolve to try to stay on the road to life ... but stay WAY BACK from the clown car.
And verify the route with  my own map, from now on.
 

("They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah's Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.)
 

Amen to that.
... but NO ONE at Warwick is !
NO ONE!

I think it might be a good thing, up to a point, to have a sensitivity approaching bitterness. This would be especially true if we realize the depth of the loss of so many who went out from us. These "little ones" were truly stumbled, at least partly because many of us went along with a message that basically said the very thing that Christ warned us against. In this small way, we were being "anti-Christ." 
Christ had said, "If anyone says to you, 'The appointed time has approached' . . ., do not follow them." So, in 1973 we studied a book called "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached." In Russell's day, they often used a translation that said: "If anyone says to you, 'The time is at hand' . . . do not follow them." So Russell's second most famous book was called "The Time Is At Hand." Rutherford had done the same to an even greater degree with 1925. In effect, we as an organization had denied Christ 3 times. And what did Peter do when he realized the significance of his own three-time denial of Christ?
(Matthew 26:75) 75 And Peter called to mind what Jesus had said, namely: “Before a rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly. (Matthew 18: 6-14) But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea. 7 “Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes! . . . 10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven. . . . 14 Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.
Bitterness of soul is also the appropriate response to loss of faithful ones, and the reproach of that same loss.
(Micah 2:4-7) 4 In that day people will recite a proverb concerning you, And they will bitterly lament over you. They will say: “We are completely devastated! He caused the portion of my people to change hands—how he removes it from me! . . .  6 “Stop preaching!” they preach, “They should not preach these things; Humiliation will not overtake us!”  7 Is it being said, O house of Jacob: “Has the spirit of Jehovah become impatient? Are these his deeds?” Do not my own words bring good to those walking uprightly? (Ezekiel 21:6, 7) 6 “And you, son of man, sigh while you tremble, yes, sigh bitterly before them. 7 And if they say to you, ‘Why are you sighing?’ you will say, ‘Because of a report.’ For it will certainly come,. . .
(Isaiah 22:4) That is why I said: “Turn your eyes away from me,
And I will weep bitterly.
Do not insist on comforting me
Over the destruction of the daughter of my people.
There are times when such bitterness of soul, if combined with compassion, is clearly better than those remarks that indicate that we are uncaring about such ones who went out from us because it was their own fault, or even showing that we despise these little ones by calling them anti-Christ.
When Frederick Franz was pushing this 1975 agenda, he obviously knew that the biggest push-back to overcome would be that some of the brothers could use Jesus' own words against the idea, by saying that 'no one knows the day or the hour.' He had to "get out in front" of that objection, and he did it by trying to minimize Jesus' words in Matt 24:34. He may have been arguing that these words of Jesus no longer applied to us now that we had reached this new time period when, in his opinion, we so clearly do know concerning that day and hour:
*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
1975! . . . AND FAR BEYOND! . . . The Watch Tower Society over the years has endeavored to keep its associates abreast with the latest scholarship that proves consistent with historic and prophetic events recorded in the Scriptures. Major problems in sacred chronology have been straightened out . . . . One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”! My own father was counseled and disciplined by the District Overseer for adding that same verse to a Circuit Assembly talk in St Louis, Missouri in 1970 (plus or minus six months). It tended to tamp down the excitement over 1975.
I also had heard my own father give counsel to another elder (a returned Gilead missionary) about not getting overly excited over 1975, and this was on about January 2, 1975. The other elder actually thought my father was in the wrong and argued with him about it. (My father had hired the other elder who thought my father was somehow "ashamed of the good news" by not wanting people to know that "this was the year" in his own workplace.)
Of course, all of this stuff specifically about 1975 and 1925 is nearly ancient history. Our real concern should be whether we are willing to be honest about it now, and just how alert we are now to follow the spirit of Jesus' words about not following those who claim they have some unique knowledge about the times and seasons. (And who therefore believe they have the special knowledge to say "the time is at hand" or "the due time has approached.") We are still in danger, of course, because there are many who would give the words of men a higher priority than Jesus' own words. And many of the brothers, even today, will look at the disastrously false and unscriptural "Millions" campaign and shrug it off with words about how at least it pushed them zealously to greater activity. In some ways, many of the brothers are just as anxious to push the same messages:
*** w97 1/1 p. 11 par. 18 Let All Glorify Jehovah! ***
In the early 1920’s, a featured public talk presented by Jehovah’s Witnesses was entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” This may have reflected overoptimism at that time. But today that statement can be made with full confidence. Even the "overlapping generation" doctrine is being tied to a time schedule as Brother Splane and others have pointed out that even the second group of overlappers are already getting very old and many are already dying out. As more of the older anointed brothers continue to die out, we are creating the same kind of time limit all over again to the date for Armageddon. At least internally, we should all be bitterly weeping at such things.
 

Instead ... think of a police car ... which you can assemble from parts, just like a cake , and once assembled both the cake parts become cake, and the police car parts become a police car.
A Police car is not just a car ... it is a car DEDICATED for police use., and the Chief of Police has rules and regulations for its use, care and maintenance, and who can use one, and who cannot.  I can imagine County Secretaries or Utility Workers NOT being permitted to use a police car. 
Unauthorized use of an automobile can be considered Grand Theft/Auto, with a two year prison sentence ... at the discretion of the Chief of Police.
Jehovah has set the standards of how blood can and cannot be used ..... and it is quite clear that he considers it as his PERSONAL PROPERTY. 
Being Omnivores, which is clearly evident from the created design of our teeth, we were CLEARLY designed to eat meat, and AFTER the Flood, with the limited supply of animals available, and a year long by necessity enforced vegetarian diet ... God ONCE AGAIN gave mankind permission to eat meat ... as some animals had made copies of themselves during the restful, romantic  Love Boat voyage.
Jehovah set strict rules for the use and handling and sanctity of blood.
But I digress ......
If Jehovah had said "Thou shalt NOT use MY police car!", I seriously doubt he would have been too happy if he caught you sitting on the ground with a set of mechanic's tools, a fender in your lap, and parts all around you, looking up with a sheepish ... " But Lord!, I am not UUUUUUUUSSSSSING your police car .... just some of the FRACTIONS!".
 

Yes, the beginning of reinterpretation of scripture was an interesting event. I guess there are some that need to use outside sources in order to accept their own publications. But a good researcher becomes agreeable. I have no problems with the Watchtower interpretation since they seem to make adjustments as new evidence is found, including linguistics. The majority of Christianity is satisfied with what has been written with their own old interpretation.
I also don’t place any faith in “Wikipedia” Web Encyclopedia, since anyone can edit any page. When they started the program, there were a lot of false entries that have taken decades to clean. That in itself doesn’t mean, everything has been corrected. However, they still encourage people to edit without fear. Yet any information is probative. It just depends on the value you place on it. The Watchtower has done a wonderful job with its publications, and Bible, knowledge. They, should open an accredited Bible School of Bible Knowledge?
Meanwhile, this might interest you, since Jesus is known by many names. Emmanuel, Master, logos (the word), Son of God, Son of Man, Son of David, Lamb of God, Last Adam, King of the Jews, Rabbani, Teacher, Good Shepard, etc.
Literary Origins of the Archangel’s Legendary Roles
Hear Michael speaking! I am he who stands in the sight of God every hour. As the Lord lives, in whose sight I stand, I do not stop
one day or one night praying incessantly for the human race, and I indeed pray for those who are on the earth; but they do not cease
committing iniquity and fornications, and they do not do any good while they are placed on earth; and you have consumed in vanity the time in which you ought to have repented.1 The Apocalypse of Paul (Visio Pauli)
St. Michael the archangel appears by name in scripture only five times: three times in the Old Testament (Daniel 10:13, 21 and 12:1) and twice in the New Testament (Revelation 12:7–9 and the Epistle of Jude 9). Despite this relative paucity of references to the archangel in canonical literature, there exists a vast store of legendary material from the
Middle Ages concerning the archangel’s roles in the unfolding of human history. In this chapter, I explore the literary origins of St. Michael’s medieval legendary roles by examining the representations of the archangel in biblical and extra-biblical literature.
The development of the archangel’s roles in this literature as healer and guardian, intercessor, psychopomp, and warrior-angel accounts for his popular appeal in early medieval England. Indeed, the representations of the archangel in the literature reviewed in this chapter can be seen as having served as the principal quarry for early medieval English writers in their representations of St. Michael the archangel. Many of the texts of the biblical era, though by no means all, which refer to St. Michael fall under the genre of “apocalypse” in their form, character, and/or content.2 Often conveying a message of the imminent end of the world, apocalyptic literature is collectively, in history and the future promise of the heavenly realm. The implicit conflict of the apocalyptic impulse is played out in what Bernard McGinn has called “the triple eschatological pattern of [present] crisis – [imminent] judgment – [future] vindication.”3 In this tripartite paradigm, it is the hope for the vindication of salvation, the transcendence of death, that provides the believer with the strength to endure the present crisis. In the context of this eschatological drama St. Michael commands a significant presence in the literature of the Old and New Testament eras.
Although St. Michael’s character and roles appear nearly fully developed in early Hebrew literature (especially 1 Enoch and Daniel), there is a significant shift of emphasis between the literatures of the Old Testament and those of the New Testament. In the biblical and extra-biblical literature of the Old Testament, St. Michael strides across the world stage in the past, present, and future. His intercessory powers
span the three periods of human time, and his efficacy extends into the eternity of God’s time. In the canonical books of the New Testament, however, St. Michael virtually withdraws from the stage of the present. Instead, Christ is proclaimed the sole mediator, “whose saving accomplishments . . . embrace past, present, and future,” on behalf of Christians in the New Testament.5 St. Michael’s appearance in Revelation 12:7–9 underscores his withdrawal from the present, while emphasizing his dual roles in the past and future: expelling the fallen angels at the beginning of time and defeating the forces of evil at the end of time.
 
The thing to note, not confusing the meaning of each definition within the names. A good example would be? Yahweh, being Baal. While there were certain Hebrews that ultimately worshipped Baal? That in no way diminishes who the real God of Israel was and is, and what his modern pronunciation should sound like.

This week's WT-study:
The Watchtower - April 2018 - "Young People, Are You Focused on Spiritual Goals?"
The Winter Olympics? The f***ing Winter Olympics.
So you're telling me this lady was one of the best athletes in her nation, good enough to go to the Olympic f***ing Games, a level of skill which already requires incredible dedication to reach. Which she passed on to go be a regular pioneer instead.
And this was back in the 80s since it's been over 30 years. Well sister, you passed on a rare, once in a lifetime opportunity to do something only a handful of people get a chance to, something which apparently you had already been training to do, in order to do something you could have started the next fucking year.
But I mean the end was probably so close, wasn't it? I'm sure you'll get extra Paradise for banging on people's doors to annoy them at 9:40am instead of the 15-ish months you'd have spent training doing a thing you apparently love to compete at Lake Placid or wherever.
The f***ing Olympics, bullshit.

It would be interesting to note, the extent by which some millerites thought as well as some Advents in support of Miller's movement. Even though some of those Advents like Barbour, Storr, and others that quite couldn’t agree with Miller, did find themselves seeking, further, answer in which they found Russell as eager to learn scripture wholeheartedly, then, what they had been taught.

The transformation from Advents to Seventh-day Adventist became a concern to the Miller movement since their value in doctrine was now being question by their own. This didn’t sway Russell to conclude his teachings by either party. This is quite evident by Russell, overall view of scripture.

However, in the end, Barbour, Storr, and others returned to their original understanding of Adventism that Russell was unable to agree with. This became evident too.

I see. Perhaps the difficulty lies with the complete phrase "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

To better clarify my statement, I will draw attention to the latter portion of the phrase “did not start with JW’s” that interested me, as factual. Jesus Being Michael would have to be left up to interpretation. Generally, those that debate the Watchtower? Usually, resort to the Watchtower’s reasoning book. In that book? The Watchtower “asks” a question.

However, in the 19 century, the Bible students were framing this question with specific notations as, how to understand the symbolism of Michael as an authority figure. The intent of the ancients then lies with this symbolism that the Watchtower accepts.

This result is graphically described by the Prophet— [B147] "The noise of a multitude in the mountains [kingdoms] like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of battle." Isa. 13:4 "THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL" is another striking symbol of similar import. The name "archangel" signifies chief messenger; and our anointed Lord himself is Jehovah's Chief Messenger—the "Messenger of the Covenant." (Mal. 3:1) Daniel refers to the same personage, calling him Michael, which name signifies who as God—an appropriate name for him who is "the express image of the Father's person," and the representative of his authority and power. The voice of the Archangel represents Christ's authority and command. This symbol, then, represents Christ as taking control, or beginning his reign and issuing his commands, his official orders, announcing the change of dispensation by the enforcement of the laws of his kingdom.

The same thought is differently expressed by Daniel, when he says, Then shall Michael, the great Prince, "stand up." To stand up signifies to assume authority, to give commands. See "ariseth," Isa. 2:19,21. Another illustration of this symbol is from David, who says of Christ prophetically, "He uttered his voice; the earth melted." The great time of trouble will be precipitated, and the earth (organized society) will melt, or disintegrate, under the change of administration going into effect when the new King utters his voice of command. At his command, systems of error, civil, social and religious, must go down, however old or firmly entrenched and fortified they may be. The sword out of his mouth shall cause the havoc: The truth on every subject, and in all its varied aspects, shall judge men, and, under his power and overruling, shall cause the overturning of evil and error in all their thousand forms.

"THE TRUMP OF GOD." Many seem thoughtlessly to entertain the idea that this trumpet will be a literal sound on [B148] the air. But this will be seen to be an unreasonable expectation, when it is noticed that Paul here refers to what the Revelator designates "The Seventh Trumpet," the "Last Trump" in a series of symbolic trumpets. (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:52) The proof that these references are to the same trumpet is found in the record of the events connected with each. Paul mentions the resurrection, and the establishment of the Lord's Kingdom, as connected with "the trump of God," and the Revelator mentions the same with even greater minuteness. The propriety of calling the "seventh," or "last trump," the "trump of God," is evident, too, when we remember that the events mentioned under the preceding six trumpets of Revelation refer to humanity's doings, while the seventh refers specially to the Lord's work, and covers the "Day of the Lord." Since the six preceding trumpets were symbols—and this is generally admitted by commentators and students who make any claim as expositors of Revelation—it would be a violation of reason and common sense to expect the seventh, the last of the series, to be a literal, audible sound on the air. And not only so, but it would be out of harmony with the Lord's general methods, as well as with those statements of Scripture indicating the secrecy of his coming; for a thief never sounds a trumpet to announce his arrival.

 
*** w10 4/1 p. 19 Is Jesus the Archangel Michael? ***

In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Both names—Michael (meaning “Who Is Like God?”) and Jesus (meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”)—focus attention on his role as the leading advocate of God’s sovereignty. Philippians 2:9 states: “God exalted him [the glorified Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.”

It is important to note that the human birth of Jesus was not the beginning of his life. Before Jesus was born, Mary was visited by an angel who told her that she would conceive a child by means of holy spirit and that she should name the child Jesus. (Luke 1:31) During his ministry, Jesus often spoke of his prehuman existence.—John 3:13; 8:23, 58.

So Michael the archangel is Jesus in his prehuman existence. After his resurrection and return to heaven, Jesus resumed his service as Michael, the chief angel, “to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11

 

You may consider, further research with the book known in the western world as the “book of Enoch”. There you can find the reference to the archangel Michael. This reference, as previously stated was around 300 B.C. which was carried down by the Chaldean/Babylonian culture.

I believe you have asked space merchant to prevail as a good researcher. However, may I ask what your disagreement is with the quote “it did not start with JW’s” that would require a more in-depth discussion? Are you not a JW? I am simply referring to the concept of JW’s not being the first to research this ancient manifestation.

The mindset would require only one interpretation, of many. Can that be possible?

It’s an interesting question. In the category of fun facts. The book of watchers and the book of parables give certain insight, just as the Islamic interpretation of Michael. Yet, the more effective use of Michael was in the Chaldean/Babylonian time.

Encyclopedia of Angels

Michael
The most prominent and greatest angel in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic lore. Michael means in Hebrew
“who is like God” or “who is as God.” Michael is Chaldean in origin. In ANGELOLOGIES, his chief roles
are many: he is warrior, priest, protector, healer, and guardian. He holds numerous offices in heaven: he is
chief of the VIRTUES and ARCHANGELS, one of the ANGELS OF THE PRESENCE, a PRINCE OF LIGHT, ANGEL
OF TRUTH, and angel of repentance, righteousness, mercy, and salvation. Some of his roles overlap with
those of other great archangels, Uriel, Gabriel, and Raphael; of the four, he is the primary aspect of the
ANGEL OF THE LORD. Michael also shares similarities with Metatron and Melchizedek. He also has duties as the ANGEL OF DEATH.

Dictionary of Angels

Sabathiel (Sabbathi)-in Jewish cabala, a spirit (intelligence) of the planet Saturn. He receives the divine light of the Holy Spirit and communicates
it to the dwellers in his kingdom. In Mosaic lore, Sabathiel is one of 7 princes "who stand continually before God, and to whom are given the
spirit-names of the planets." [Rf: Cornelius Agrippa, Three Books of Occult Philosophy 111.1

What makes the concept similar is the meaning, “who is like god”. Of course, the interpretation of John 1:1 could be construed to be similar. Trinity would be at odds since Trinity cannot measure, “who is like God” to “is god” in a contextual way. That would make the intent different. And God doesn’t make things confusing.

My observation was strictly on the comment “it did not start with JW’s” which is correct. This manifestation began with the concept of Christ coming to earth as the son of God, the Messiah, and the son of man. Time constraint make this visionary, seem troubling, but not if we consider this vision with Peter’s saying in 2 Peter3:8 and the psalmist that echoed the same in Psalms 90:4 Therefore, Jesus preparation was but only a few days ago!

Space Merchant

You are correct. What would be the difference, about Michael in the Hebrew Bible that the majority of Christendom accepts as related?

Catholic Bible Dictionary 2009

MICHAEL (Hebrew, “Who is like God?”) The name of an archangel who appears in both the Old Testament and the New Testament (Dan 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7). He is one of the three angels the Church venerates by name (with Gabriel and Raphael). In the book of Daniel, the angel Michael appears as the patron and protector of the nation of Israel.
He is given the title “prince” and contends with other angelic princes who look after Gentile nations (Dan 10:13, 21). He is also to play a leading role in Messianic times, when the Lord’s faithful will be delivered and raised up to eternal life (Dan 12:1–4). In the NT, reference is made to a dispute
between Michael and the devil over the body of Moses, a story that probably relies on a Jewish apocryphal work called the Assumption of Moses (Jude 9). Finally, the book of Revelation depicts Michael as the leader of the angelic armies who expelled Satan and his minions from heaven (Rev 12:7–9).

Watchtower Reasoning 1989

Was Jesus Christ a real, historical person?

The Bible itself is the principal evidence that Jesus Christ is a historical person. The record in the Gospels is not a vague narrative of events at some unspecified time and in an unnamed location. It clearly states time and place in great detail. For an example, see Luke 3:1, 2, 21-23.

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus referred to the stoning of “James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.” (The Jewish Antiquities, Josephus, Book XX, sec. 200) A direct and very favorable reference to Jesus, found in Book XVIII, sections 63, 64, has been challenged by some who claim that it must have been either added later or embellished by Christians; but it is acknowledged that the vocabulary and the style are basically those of Josephus, and the passage is found in all available manuscripts.

In ancient times, anything could be made into a symbol of worship. Cats were no different in that respect. However, symbolism becomes idolatry in the eye of the beholder, nothing more. So, cats as pets have no symbolic meaning of idolatry to those that don’t see them as an object of worship. Leviticus 26:1

I believe, God made it clear in the Old Testament, worship should only be conducted to the one and true God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Exodus 3:6

Yet, you do find certain modern cultures that still believe in using animals as symbols of idolatry to worship, as an embodiment of religion. Something JehovahÂ’s Witnesses donÂ’t do.

Tertullian, "On Idolatry" and Mishnah "Avodah Zarah": Questioning the Parting of the Ways between Christians and Jews

What concept has emerged in this age of atheism?

The idolatry of God: breaking our addiction to certainty and satisfaction

Sumerian

 


Egyptian

There is a difference with the Cat symbol, Bastet as a deity for religious belief and worship, than that of a regular house cat as a simple pet.

@TrueTomHarley "You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' "...... Look in the mirror my friend. It seems to be you that have the single issue here. It seems to be your thought that the Governing Body are right no matter what they do. Do you worship them that much ?  
My thought, the GB should probably be removed and replaced........ I have a thought that some of them have been removed in the past but I've not gone deeply into that. There are other things in my life to do. 
And once again you generalise, this time concerning the courts. If the courts have to deal with millions of cases of abuse, not just the ones from JW Org, then that is a generalisation. The courts must have case queing up out the doors and round the block... 
However it does not make it right for the Governing Body to think they are so supreme as to misuse their power and get away with it.
One more point, as it's just come back to my mind, this idea you have that I'm a 'follower' of something or other. I think your mind or your emotions  is / are using this false idea as an excuse to accuse me.. It seems to be the only thing you can latch onto. I've told you many times, so it seems pointless telling you again, but I'll try to reason with you. I AM NOT A PART OF ANY ANTI - JW OR ANTI WATCHTOWER MOVEMENT. I only want the Organisation cleaned up. And if the GB are so high and mighty and think ( just as a wicked slave would think) the master is delaying in coming, and then mistreat the 'domestics'... This is made so clear in God's word yet you seem to ignore it. 
"One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up... " Um, two point here. 1. The GB doesn't have the quantity of cases to worry about. 2. The only known cases within the JW Org are the ones already 'out there'. It's a bit like saying there is no water, but you haven't yet searched for any well. JW cases will only be known once they are made known to the public. Otherwise how will we know about them. Whereas these court cases you keep going on about are already 'out there' and everybody knows about them. The term 'tip of the iceberg' seems to fit in nicely here. Remember that in most of the countries I've mentioned, investigations are either just beginning or are ongoing, so it's too soon to judge how many cases have been hidden or not dealt with properly.
I laughed, sorry, when i read, 'I'm writing a book'. That always hits a sour note with me, but maybe I'm misjudging you. So why are you 'writing a book'... Most people write books to make themselves money or to gain fame. 
I actually discredit your comments when you tell me I'm 'rolling with the pigs' and you say they are my heroes, because that means you misjudge me. And as we seem to agree, we are not fit to judge each other. 
God will use whomever He chooses to use, to do whatever job He wants them to do. If God chooses to use people of the world to clean up His chosen Organisation, because that Org will not clean itself up, then so be it. Who are we to question it ?    
 
 

Strictly speaking, we are not supposed to be here at all.