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JOHN BUTLER

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Everything posted by JOHN BUTLER

  1. JOHN BUTLER
    So put it in plain English for a simple man like me please. Have the GB done a U turn on this subject of voting ? Was it that JW's were not 'allowed' to vote or they would be disfellowshipped ? And now is it that JW's can chose for themselves in they vote of not ? Did people actually die or get injured because the GB said they could not vote ? In simple English please. Is this another U turn by the GB ?
  2. JOHN BUTLER
    The book is What does the Bible really Teach Page 52.
  3. JOHN BUTLER
    I should dig deep in my pile of books really before writing this but :- The GB of the JW Org make known that Jesus was put to death on a Stake. In the NWT (JW Bible) they use the expression 'torture stake'. Which is probably not a direct translation from the Greek. In one of their publications they use a picture that shows Jesus hanging on a stake. His hands / wrists are crossed over and he has one nail through the both wrists. In God's word we read about Thomas who doubted the resurrection of Jesus. Thomas said But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” Jesus Appears to Thomas 24 Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” 26 Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”… Berean Study Bible · Obviously there are many different translation of this scripture but it would appear that the word hands means hands, not wrists. And in some translations it uses the word nails = plural. In the NWT it uses both, hands = plural, and nails = plural. This refers to the hands only, not the feet. I wrote to the UK bethal and the reply i received was not good. Basically they told me not to bother them, but to ask the elders. If I can find the letter I would try to upload it but i may have binned it in disgust. So I am asking for people's opinions on this matter. Was Jesus killed on a stake or a cross and how would you prove your point ?
  4. JOHN BUTLER
    But unfortunately you don't want to relate it to the Jehovah's Witnesses. It seems you wish to talk about the Bible from a general viewpoint. My point is that JW's 'learn' at their meetings. They use the NWT and are taught from that. The leaders of the JW Org are the Governing Body. The 'ones taking the lead' are the Elders and others that do the ministry regularly. I'm sure you can understand that difference. This whole forum is about Jehovah's Witnesses but you still want to bring in other issues. As with the word nakedness which you didn't want to understand my viewpoint on. The GB either wrote the word or approved of the word nakedness, but why ? If the original meaning was lightly clad or wearing underclothes then why say naked ? To a JW reading that scripture from the NWT it mens naked. You don't agree, that's up to you. There is another phrase in the NWT 'torture stake', which is used in place of cross. Now the word, i think would be stake. But the GB has used 'torture stake'. I can understand it is to show what type of stake, but, is it true to translation ? You see the whole point of this is not about a general meaning, not about what every religion thinks of it. It is about how JW's view it through the NWT. Because as I've said many times this is a JW Forum.
  5. JOHN BUTLER
    Maybe the GB should do that on many things.
  6. JOHN BUTLER
    So when you go into the ministry you tell people that you might have the truth but you might not do you ?
  7. JOHN BUTLER
    The cop out / loop hole is in what they say on page 9. Quote : It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infalible". That sound to me as if they are doubting their own explanations. They are saying their explanations could be wrong. If they doubt themselves, how are others supposed to believe them ?
  8. JOHN BUTLER
    S.M and I are in debate about some scripture in Hebrews. without going back pages, i think it was Billy that used a scripture that used the word Leaders. Whereas in the NWT the words were 'taking the lead' In my personal opinion there is a difference. Politicians may call themselves 'leaders', but they seldom physically 'take the lead'. In years gone by of course a Leader would in fact lead, from the front, leading. But in modern day terminology a Leader can be one that gives orders from behind, not actually partaking in the activity. S.M. has vast knowledge of course and i don't mind being corrected by him. It teaches me humility. My point, not to SM here, is that most JW's do not do so much research into who wrote the translation, whether Strong's was used, and / or cross reference with other translation, or even going back to 'original manuscripts (as far back as possible). JW's are supposed to trust the GB and take every word from the GB as being correct, including the NWT. Many JW's (such as myself) are not highly educated people, so tend to follow like sheep. As meanings of words can change and often do, then the NWT has been updated, and I am asking myself now have i been foolish to trust it ? For me the plot thickens.
  9. JOHN BUTLER
    Is that why they said in The Revelation book that "It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infalible". What I call a 'cop out', a 'loop hole' as they know they don't believe it themselves.
  10. JOHN BUTLER
    TTH I love your sense of humour, it's all so funny. where spiritual thirst can be meaningfully satisfied. What a joke. The GB don't even believe half of what they allow to be published. JTR seems to have used the JW Org as some sort of probation office / reform school : a place where young people who have committed crimes are sent to live and be taught to behave in ways that are socially acceptable. accurate Bible knowledge, um, SM suggests that the translation in places is not accurate. Well not according to Strong's anyway. So if the GB cannot be trusted and the NWT cannot be trusted, then where is this spiritual feast coming from ?
  11. JOHN BUTLER
    S.M please tell us, what is 'of the church' ? What church ? You quite often use this word 'Church' but it would be nice if you would define it. Some people think of the building they use as the church. Others think of the Apostles as being the church. So please make it clear exactly what you mean. Thank you
  12. JOHN BUTLER
    I love the way you try to be the big boss man. So funny SM. You tell me, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that. As if you have some authority over me. And I love the way you criticise me, it helps me to examine myself. Keep it up. Channels as in what? Be clear. Channels of communication from God to us. I would think that you do not believe that the GB of the JW Org are the correct channel of communication that we need to use. In fact I think that you might feel we do not need an extra channel of communication, that we should have direct communication with God through Jesus Christ, by means of Holy Spirit. I am open to suggestions on that point.............. Next :- I quoted the Hebrew verses from the New World Translation. Now you are saying they have written it wrongly. The NWT as you know is the JW Org Bible, translated by the GB. That is the Bible i have come to use regularly as I find the wording is easy to understand. However it would seem that you are suggesting that this is not a good translation ? I'm sure the GB would say they were 'guided' by God's Holy Spirit when they did this translation, so once again I am confused. I am just an ordinary man, and if God's word is for such as me, then there are indeed great problems. I honestly do not think that God expects us to use Strong's, or to compare ten different translations of His written word, every time we sit down and study it.
  13. JOHN BUTLER
    @Anna Quote. I posted the following article several times before because it epitomizes the abdication of responsibility by Christendom to keep their Churches morally and spiritually clean. In contrast, Jehovah's Witnesses have not abdicated that responsibility and through the fda, as "guardians of the doctrine", are persevering in keeping the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as close to the first Christian congregation as possible. I presume this is meant as a joke. JW Org being morally and spiritually clean. I think in some ways you contradict yourself Anna. You have given me info that proves the JW Org is not morally clean. And even other people have shown that the GB have written lies and misused scripture, so how can it even be spiritually clean ? Comparing JW Org to other religions means nothing. It just brings us full circle about the 'offering children in the fire to Molech'. It's no good saying our sin is not as bad as their sin. Deliberate sin is worse that accidental sin. The GB will have to carry full weight of it all. The Elders will have to feel shame that they acted a puppets. And the ordinary congregants will hang their heads in shame. Knowing what dishonour they have all brought on Jehovah's name. Earthwide Anna, the dishonour is Earthwide. You know it's true. You have even agreed with me at times, you have felt my pain at times.
  14. JOHN BUTLER
    Sorry J T it does not compute. Unless you have been raised on the idea, as I've mentioned before about, Collateral damage. You mentioned yourself about the harm caused to others in the ORG. I myself learnt a lot about 'being nice and kind and forgiving' and that was good of course. But at what cost to others ? Each to their own conscience.
  15. JOHN BUTLER
    J T you have a strange but funny sense of humour. But you don't make any sense to me. You more or less say that everything about the organisation is wrong, but you are sticking with it anyway. Now, if i had a car that i really liked and it had been reliable for years, then suddenly the engine blew up. I would replace the engine. But if the car was a wreck and kept going wrong and was dangerous, then the engine blew up, I'd scrap it and get a better car. In your version there are no other cars available, so the one and only car would need to be put right and used. But with the JW Org, the GB don't want the Org put right. You have said it, the GB want to be the only bosses and run it their way. So how can you approve an organisation that brings Jehovah's name into disrepute ? They DO NOT bring praise to Jehovah, they bring shame. They do not even protect their own congregants. They do not show Love or Mercy. So, in what way are they even serving God ? Making God's name known just to shame it . The TRUTH is not the JW Org, it is Jesus Christ and God's written word. John 14 v 6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. There is the TRUTH. Unfortunately you seem to be stuck in that rut where the JW Org talk about being 'in the truth'. Being in the truth is surely serving God through Jesus Christ, NOT being a JW'
  16. JOHN BUTLER
    Where there is life there is hope, and ALL things are possible with God. I would say being on here having discussion, if our intentions are good, keeps our minds away from wicked things. Therefore I feel there is still hope for all of us.
  17. JOHN BUTLER
    Maybe the JW Org / GB / Watchtower have always been a hoax, and never been the truth.
  18. JOHN BUTLER
    You should get a standing ovation for this comment. However are you still a JW ? I honestly can't remember what you've told us.
  19. JOHN BUTLER
    In honesty I must have missed that bit. If I'm in the wrong i apologise. Getting 30 notification at a time about this forum can be confusing at times for an old 'un like me.
  20. JOHN BUTLER
    Ah yes but they had PROOF of who their leaders should be, whereas the GB do not give any proof that anyone should follow them or obey them. They are in fact false leaders. Verse 7 here says CONTEMPLATE HOW THEIR CONDUCT TURNS OUT. Done that already. And I can see very bad conduct, which shows false leaders.. . 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith. As for verse 17. I don't know what Bible you are using, thought you were a JW so here is the JW Org version.. Please notice in BOTH verses it DOES NOT say LEADERS it says THOSE TAKING THE LEAD. 17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. So the GB have no proof that they have any authority and they deliberately do wrong. Yet you still want to follow them. OK so be it.
  21. JOHN BUTLER
    “That faithful slave is THE channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.” (w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 2 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”) THE being singular I would think. “Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “THE faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his CHANNEL of communication.” (w03 3/15 p. 27 ‘The Lips of Truth Will Endure Forever’) THE = singular and Channel = singular. And yes right. Proof is there that the GB are wrong in saying they are the only means of communication, which they do say, along with saying the JW org is the only way to get saved. Come on Anna you've seen it all here in print with quotes and references given many times. The GB exalt themselves above everyone, even the rest of the anointed. JW's are supposed to believe every word from the GB without question. Any talking against the GB is seen as apostate. I'd love to ask Bro Jackson what / which other channels are being used . I think S.M. might think other channels are being used. As for me I'll admit once again I'm completely lost in it all. Totally confused.
  22. JOHN BUTLER
    Do you know why the 'other sister' got fired ?
  23. JOHN BUTLER
    Once again you try to turn the tables Kid , but you are not good at it at all It was you that first mentioned feminism in the Org.
  24. JOHN BUTLER
    Who's arrangement, only the GB's. Jehovah does not make such demands.
  25. JOHN BUTLER
    @BillyTheKid46 What did catch my eye, It is of no surprise that some want to introduce feminism to the Watchtower. How far from scripture have these Christians gone? ? Aren't there women in the writing room of the W/T and Awake mags ? Or there were for sure.
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