JOHN BUTLER

@Anna Quote : I am sorry, there was no one announced at our hall for such a long time so I don't know how exactly the announcement is made anymore. I can assure you though it will be known that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because you do not agree with the organization. I remember someone was announced years ago, and everyone knew it was because he had differing views, and not because he had committed immorality or something like that. (End quote.) I was wise enough to tell a few brothers what i was about to do, so at least they would know the truth. I gave only one of them the reason, but told others i was 'resigning'. However here is the stupidity of things shunning causes :- A man, a JW that i had helped many times as he was over 80 years old, though he is quite physically active. Whilst i was still a brother i sold him a motorised bicycle. We had an agreement that if he decide he didn't really want it, that i would buy it back from him. A long time had passed since this business agreement. Then suddenly my wife has a text message on her mobile phone (cell phone to you guys i think). This being after i left the Org. The message is from this man, asking her to talk to me about me buying back this motorised bicycle. Two points here : - 1. The man should never have been given my wife's personal phone number, so whoever gave him the number was doing wrong. 2. It was a business agreement between the man and myself, not involving my wife. And my wife knew nothing about it and was not interested in getting involved in it. My wife gave me the information after getting over the shock of receiving the message, and I could see she was genuinely upset by him having her number. I emailed him quite politely telling him how my wife and i felt about it. I also agreed that if he contact me personally I would buy the item back from him. Now, the questions must be, Why was he too frightened to contact me directly first time ? And, why has he not replied to my email ? I know the answers of course. He is frightened of being told off by the Elders of the congregation, for contacting me. I know this man well enough to know he is not frightened of me personally. And i know that we once had a really good friendship. It proves my point, that people are frightened of the Elders. There is a second case proving the same thing, but i will make it brief. One of the brothers i told that I was resigning, visited me the Wednesday evening before the Thursday announcement. He promised me he would call back in 6 months time to see how i was doing. He has not been near my house since that Wednesday evening. Why ? Well once again it just proves my point, but in his case he has also proved himself a liar. He has broken his word. All because of fear of men, the Elders.

Brother Jackson said a lot of things, including basically admitting that the GB are not the only spokesman God is using. Governing Body Unwittingly Condemned Mr. Stewart then asked pointedly if the Governing Body views itself as Jehovah’s spokespeople on earth. Brother Jackson does not vacillate this time, but states, “That, I think, would seem to be quite presumptuous, to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.” With those words, Brother Jackson is unwittingly labeling the Governing Body as presumptuous. Here is the official position of the Governing Body with regards to its role before God. [Italics added] “Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his channel of communication.” (w03 3/15 p. 27 ‘The Lips of Truth Will Endure Forever’) “That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.” (w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 2 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”) Theocratic appointments come from Jehovah through his Son and God’s visible earthly channel, “the faithful and discreet slave” and its Governing Body.” (w01 1/15 p. 16 par. 19 Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed) However that 'faithful slave' and the GB are one and the same now, as the rest of the Anointed are pushed to one side. So there you have it. As I've said before the scripture at Luke 14 v 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

You seem to want to link me with Srecko and with this Mr Gardner whoever he is . That was what i meant by grouping people together. It seems that you and I will always see things from different angles. So be it. Have a good day.

Oh so many points, but i will only answer this one right now. My wife was present when they announced that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. They did not say i had disassociated myself. I think that proves the point. I can see that you support the JW org with all your heart and I'm not in a battle with you. So best to just agree to differ. You seem to take everything they say as right. So be it Anne. Have a good day.

@JW Insider comment above and my comment above prove the point I'm making. The 'rulers' of JW Org and the Elders could do a lot more. But they are still trying to make the JW Org 'look clean' even when it isn't. Yes of course only God through Jesus Christ can bring in the New World and bring back perfection, but that is no excuse for others to stop trying to make things better now. And I'm still not sure if you believe that only one organisation is the true way to God, or if a person can be 'saved' on their own faith.

Thank you @JW Insider. When you say 'molester' I presume you mean Pedophile.... . So here we have to important points. 1. That congregants are not informed of there being a Pedophile in their congregation. 2. Quote "until he was reinstated last year." So we are not talking about 20 years ago as some on here pretend. This is NOW. JW Insider did not say if the police were involved or informed, but if not then this man could still be a threat to people outside of the JW Org / congregation. And the Elders of his new congregation can only watch him whilst he is in the Kingdom Hall. What about social gatherings ? Many JW's have social gatherings / 'a party' / 'get together'. If this man is invited, who watches him ? Be honest, am i not making the point clear here. This is now, not back in history. More needs to be done to protect not only the JW congregations but also the people outside.

Poor Space Merchant. I think you have a problem SM. It seems you need to group people together. I tell you this much, if any person says something that i agree with, i will say that i agree with it. That does not make me a follower of that person or does not link me to that person in any way. It only means that i agree with the one comment they have made. You are telling me that i don't believe in the promises God has made. You are very wrong. However you are free to judge me if you wish. But I worry about you. I have a sad feeling that you feel inferior. You have mentioned many times that you are a 'man of colour', a 'black man. Why do you need to tell us this ? Is it because you feel inferior ? The length of your comments seem to show that you are trying to prove how clever you are. We all know that you have great knowledge. So please remember that i am not part of a group, I am not linked to anyone except my own Wife. Of course you may criticise me as much as you want to, if you helps you to feel better about yourself.

I no longer attend meetings due to the Child Abuse problem earthwide in the JW Org. I left the Org in January of this year. I could not be part of what I'd found about. I could not encourage other people in to such dangerous situations. If i had stayed I would have passed on information to other congregants, then I would have been disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. It was better for me to leave of my own choice and be free to use my own voice to tell anyone that would listen. I could have stayed and become completely inactive, a Jehovah's bystander. But that would have silenced me, and by doing so, make me part of the problem. In my opinion if a person knows of danger but keeps quiet then they are almost as bad as the ones causing the danger. Many here say I am giving false alarms, but we each have to weigh up the situation and deal with it as we think best.

OK, so lets have some truth spoken. Does anyone on here actually know if, The situation has arisen that a person is accused of being a pedophile and it is proved to be correct. If that person is allowed to remain in the Organisation, are the members of their congregation informed that this person is a proven Pedophile. Or, are the members of the same congregation informed that there is a Pedophile within their congregation. As far as I know the congregants are not informed... Now, when our children were young, we were in a congregation in Bristol. Parents were told that during meetings their children had to stay with the parents. We had five young children but the congregation was kind enough to allow the use of the 'back room' for parents to look after disruptive / unhappy children. My wife and i often spent the meeting apart, one in the main hall, the other in the back room, but at all time we had all five children with at least one of us. Since living here in Devon we have found that the situation is different. Children can go and sit with whomever they want. Our children are grown up of course but we have grandchildren now. I have seen three of our granddaughters all sitting separately with different people. This is helpful to their mother as her husband is not a Witness and does not attend meetings. But it does leave the situation wide open to one of those girls being abused, if mum doesn't know who she can trust and who she should not trust. So, in my opinion, the GB, Organisation, Congregation Elders, have a Duty of Care, to inform the congregants if there is a Pedophile in their congregation. However i do not believe the congregants are informed.

There must be thousands of dead fish in the JW Org then.

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance. Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street. Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men. Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave. The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God. Is that sinning against the spirit ? I really don't know. As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not. We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly. Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think.

"When we find ourselves making explicit demands," That's Your words Kid..... So what are you burbling about ? Have you been drinking or are you on tablets that upset your mind ? Get well soon Kid.

The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.

What tablets are you taking J T ?

@Space Merchant2 In the final part of the days,The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.”For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. Thank you S.M... Isaiah 2 v 2&3. 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people. " Zechariah 8 v23. The Watchtower Study Edition April 12. Life story by Leonard Smith :- THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then. * (John 10:16) Note he does not say the Jewish man symbolizes the Governing Body. He says the Jewish man symbolizes the Anointed Christians. A big difference.

Well a lot of JW's say they are 'in the truth' but as i don't see all of it as truth then i don't use that phrase. So it seems that you see it as ok for the GB and some Elders to deliberately do wrong, because they are not perfect. And as for making demands, I think God himself makes demands "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Matthew 5 v 48.

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah. So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now.

but you have a good heart, so looks don't matter.

When I say JW Org, i do not mean JW.org, I mean the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation. I would think most people understand that. And it does enough harm to itself, it doesn't need outside help to do that. However the official title i believe is The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is a separate organisation to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Each of them having their own legal departments, though i presume both being controlled by the Governing Body. As for being perfect, none of us are, and i for one don't expect anyone to be. What i do expect is for the JW Org and Watchtower Soc' to examine themselves in comparison to God's standards, not to the standards of the world. It is so easy to say that The JW Org and W/t are behaving better than the world... I think i behave much better than many in the world. But i know I do not live up to God's standards. However the JW Org / W/t is supposed to live as if they are in the New World. I can't quite remember the scripture but it's something about : Come you people let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah. And about, learning a new or pure language. So when will this happen ? And who will those people be that do this ? Will it only be Jehovah's witnesses ?

@Witness I take my hat off to you. you have worded it much better that I. Spirit directed Org eh ? So why do they get so much wrong.

Anna you are not blind to all the problems in the Org are you ? The way Child Abuse is dealt with, needs sorting out. NOT just on paper, anyone can write a list of what procedure should be, and then secretly do it a different way. You yourself have given me instances of this...... The GB stating that they themselves (only those 8 men) are the faithful and discreet slave. When Jesus said to his apostles that one should not put himself above another. Yet the GB do put themselves above the others of the Anointed. The false teachings, which they pretend are mistakes. The changing of meaning of scriptures, by the GB, to suit their own needs or wants. Surely everyone knows about Page 9 in the Revelation book, where the GB / writers say " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Huh ? On the one hand they say they are the Faithful slave of God, giving the right food at the right time. Then on the other hand they say 'But we could be wrong' Why would they be wrong if they claim that the information comes from God ? Of course they have been proved wrong, so I think it proves my point, they are not receiving the info' from God. So, the GB need to be cleaned out, removed by God or Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, the wicked slave would be thrown out in the streets. Information from God's Kingdom Rules book :- The Bible students in 1883 knew Christmas was wrong but they continued to celebrate Christmas until 1926, so deliberate sin was committed against God. In 1895 Bro Russell commented that smoking was wrong, using scripture to back up what he said. But smoking was allowed to continue within the JW Org until 1973. Over 75 years of deliberate sin by those 'in charge' of the Bible Students/JW Org. And they seem to boast about it in that book as if making the changes was so good. Yes good, but much too late, as it should have been done as soon as they realised. Can you not see the pattern ? The GB / Org 'bosses' know about things much sooner than they let the congregants know. Not giving the right food at the proper time... Could it be that they were /are frightened of losing so many people from the Org if they do things properly. Carry that through to the Child Abuse / Pedophilea problem and once again it can clearly be seen that the GB and HQ's in every country knew about the serious problem of Child Abuse in many many congregations, but deliberately held back on taking positive action. Most active JW's never knew for years about it, and many still don't know. Once again deliberate sinning was / is taking place. Shunning. This one is a mixed bag of course. But if it leads to people being left completely alone and depressed then i would think it was not God's or Jesus Christ's intentions. It should be made clear when a person is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', whether they were disfellowshipped or 'resigned', and whether the person sinned against God or not. No personal details need to be given but the congregation should know if they are allowed to talk to the person or not. Many congregants unfortunately will not think for themselves, they need guidance or 'approval' from the elders. Quite funny that the Org prints this magazine 'Return to Jehovah', but no one is supposed to even talk to ex JW's. When the bible reminds us 'not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together' I don't think it mean in such a 'military way'.

I wonder if any of you have ever watched 'Life of Brian'. I must say i didn't realise how bad the language was until i watched it with subtitles. And I will not watch it again. However my point here is that the anti-Romans would sit down and write about what they would do, and that seemed to be their way of getting things done (or not getting things done). All talk and writing, and no action. Now that seems to be just like the GB of the JW Org. And what excuse, oh of course. Well the rest of the world is like it too. Back to the, offering up children to Molech. Well the others were doing it too. In the Kid's comment above i can see at least 3 times the 'world' is mentioned. And what are moral like today ? Come on ,we all know what the world is like (even though SM seems to think i don't know) so what ? The JW org is not the world. It is supposed to be NO PART OF THE WORLD. It should not even be influenced by the world. So why oh why do they even compare themselves to the world ? The comparison should only be to what God's standards are, not what mans standards are. One thing i find strange is how the Kid seems to say the Watchtower, not the JW org.

* w18 January p. 13 par. 5 Pleasant Unity and the Memorial *** By ‘testing whether we are in the faith.’ To do that, we do well to ask ourselves: ‘Do I really believe that I am part of the only organization that Jehovah has approved to accomplish his will? *** w79 3/1 p. 18 par. 21 Faith in Jehovah’s Victorious Organization *** But, steadfastly, devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah’s organization. They know which one of all organizations on earth the Almighty God has used . . . . Is there any cause for us to lose faith in Jehovah’s visible organization . . ? *** w54 11/1 p. 667 par. 19 Walking in Good Behavior *** Do we have strong faith in Jehovah’s organization? Then loyally and actively support it. Your regular attendance . . How much more do you need SM. They think it is only them, 'THE ONLY ORGANISATION'. And you and I are not one of them.

@Space Merchant This was a comment by @JW Insider written in that topic you highlighted. "First of all the more generally correct answer is YES, not NO. The question was do Jehovah's Witnesses FEEL that they are the only people who will be saved? In my opinion, millions of them do feel exactly that way, whether or not this matches the official position. In cleaning out 50 years of my parents house for the last week I have read a lot of my deceased grandmother's correspondence with elders, pioneers, and good friends she had all over the world. I was struck by the way assemblies attended in many different nations were often summarized. These ranged from the 1950's up to about 2010. Included in so many of them were expressions like: "Isn't it great to be associated with the only people whom Jehovah will spare through this old system." I think this helps to prove my point and it is from another person's opinion not just mine.

@Space Merchant Quote : "Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world." How strange you should think that way . .Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22" They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1 I cannot be bothered to look for more but these two prove the point. They preach the 'Good News of God's Kingdom' to bring more people into the JW Org, because they believe it is only when a person is in that Org that people can be saved. Sorry SM I do realise it is a waste of my time trying to converse with you. Have a good day.