Kosonen

@Witness Hi witness, I did not find any fault in your post above. Except that I don't believe much what doxey writes. 
 
And you wrote: "This is how Satan successfully deceives, by giving us bits and pieces of truth to help an individual on the edge of falling into his trap, become prepped to swallow his lies through his agents.  2 Cor 11:4,13-15"
But is it not just that would happen if I begun taking in what doxey writes?
 

@JOHN BUTLER  John, the WT publications are often helpful to gain understanding of the Biblical truth. I still often check the online Jw library. But I do not just swollow the explanation. I check with the scriptures I remember that are related to the subject and what is important is to pray for God's guidance. That helps to see things better. I would say that it is impossible to learn correctly without prayer. Satan is there lurking all the time to mislead us when we read the Bible. If we don't pray for protection and God's guidance, then our mind is open for Satan to twist up the scriptures.
 
The individuals in the great crowd are evidently men and women of God, so I would surely apply 2 Timothy 3:16 on them also.
Revelation7:14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15  That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+
And anointed as well as individuals of the great crowd are able to be of the kind John wrote about:
1John2:10  The one who loves his brother remains in the light,+ and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 

@JOHN BUTLER  Ok, that is a good begining. Then the next thing is to examine the Holy Scriptures.
And before I got the anointing I never thought that the Bible was written only to the anointed. And I still do not think that. So this idea is maybe promoted by the GB so that the other sheep would not bother to check with the Bible if GB explains the Bible right.
2Timothy3:16  All Scripture is inspired of God+and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+17  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
I was pioneer for 5 years and not anointed and we pioneers were always taught to reason with people using scriptures. So worldy people should be able to understand scriptures even not being baptized.
We had the Reasoning-book for ministry also. So what prevents you to understand the Bible?
If you first pray to Jehovah for guidance and then you ask an anointed to show you from the Bible the answer, then you should be able to understand if the answer is true or just twisting of scriptures.
And you should never become a follower of men or women who are anointed because we can be mistaken. You should always remain only as Jesus' disciple. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
But on the other hand you will surely enjoy and benefit to be in company with good anointed christians. But make sure to always check if the anointed really explain the Bible correctly. You should never trust an anointed on face value. 
I as anointed would not be happy if you believed every thing I say without checking first with the Bible and reasoning making a logic conclusion.
Like prophecies, you can not find the answer in the Bible who exactly is for example Babylon the Great. That must be compared with existing entities and an examination must be made to see wich entity fit the description we find in the Bible. 
Can we argee on that?

I lived for a few years in the former USSR. I could hear comments why Stalin was admired. Some liked his brutality. One new broder liked Satalin's expression that translated sounds like: 'When a person is gone, the problem is gone.' = 'Нет человека, и нет проблемы.'
Many liked also that Stalin was the leader that defeated the Germans and that he expanded the Soviet union. Especially the native Russians liked that. But subjugated territories were not so happy with that. 
Actually the ethnic Russians were only about 50% of the Soviet union's population.
My wife is from Latvia, and she has told me that they dreaded the Russians that Stalin transfered to Latvia. The Russians spyed on Latvians for slightest discontend. And many Latvians were caught and sent to Siberia and never came back. 
Yeah, the Russians felt like they owned the world thanks to Stalin.
 

@Witness wrote:
To be more specific the “woman” is a heavenly covenant/promise.  Gal 4:21-26  It is the New Covenant.
“But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." (end of quote)
I don't question that. But a symbolic God's woman can have several forms. There is a symbolic heavely woman. That has been there for longtime. Genesis 3:15 testifies about that. But at the same time the fleshly Israel was symbolically God's earthly woman and he spoke of himself as a husband of Israel.Here is the scripture:
Isaiah 54:5  “For your Grand Maker is as your husband, Jehovah of armies is his name,And the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. He will be called the God of the whole earth. 6  For Jehovah called you as if you were an abandoned wife and grief-stricken, Like a wife married in youth and then rejected,” says your God. 7  “For a brief moment I abandoned you,But with great mercy I will gather you back.
So let's remember that simultaneously God had symbolically two wives. One in heaven and one on earth.
So let's now look at Revelarion 12. Because it looks like it speak here simultaneously about a heavenly God's woman and an earthly God's woman. 
 Revelation 12:4 And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.5  And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.
Until here this seems to speak about the heavenly woman. But the next things in Revelation 12 about the woman has earthly characterisrics:
 6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
Here the wilderness is hard to apply to a heavenly place. And who are they that will feed her for 1260 days? The anointed have got the responsibility to feed the domestics. Matthew 24:45-47. I think it is talking about that. And similarly as the early Christians fled when the roman armies came to Jerusalem, so it will be wise for the Jehovah's witnesses to flee and Revelation 12 seem to be about that. 
Then again in Revelation 12:15  we read how Satan will try to cause harm to the woman with earthly methods: "And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16  But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth."
How could this be about God's heavenly organization? Impossible!
If it is symbolically it does not fit heaven. If it is literally it does not fit heaven. So it must be about God's earthly woman in our time. Jesus' bride are the anointed. So the ordinary JWs as a group should be God's earthly woman.

I lived for a few years in the former USSR. I could hear comments why Stalin was admired. Some liked his brutality. One new broder liked Satalin's expression that translated sounds like: 'When a person is gone, the problem is gone.' = 'Нет человека, и нет проблемы.'
Many liked also that Stalin was the leader that defeated the Germans and that he expanded the Soviet union. Especially the native Russians liked that. But subjugated territories were not so happy with that. 
Actually the ethnic Russians were only about 50% of the Soviet union's population.
My wife is from Latvia, and she has told me that they dreaded the Russians that Stalin transfered to Latvia. The Russians spyed on Latvians for slightest discontend. And many Latvians were caught and sent to Siberia and never came back. 
Yeah, the Russians felt like they owned the world thanks to Stalin.
 

I lived for a few years in the former USSR. I could hear comments why Stalin was admired. Some liked his brutality. One new broder liked Satalin's expression that translated sounds like: 'When a person is gone, the problem is gone.' = 'Нет человека, и нет проблемы.'
Many liked also that Stalin was the leader that defeated the Germans and that he expanded the Soviet union. Especially the native Russians liked that. But subjugated territories were not so happy with that. 
Actually the ethnic Russians were only about 50% of the Soviet union's population.
My wife is from Latvia, and she has told me that they dreaded the Russians that Stalin transfered to Latvia. The Russians spyed on Latvians for slightest discontend. And many Latvians were caught and sent to Siberia and never came back. 
Yeah, the Russians felt like they owned the world thanks to Stalin.
 

@Witness wrote: "If we are to be “no part of the world”, our attention would not be on the world at the time of Jesus’ return. We would be looking into ourselves."
Unfortunately this does not add up with what Jesus said to his disciples:
6  You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.+7  “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+and there will be food shortages+ and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8  All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.(.....)15  “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16  then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.
33  Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.
Jesus clearly recommends to see and look for the fulfilment of the sign he gave.

When the real end time begins, this will be the grim reality:
Revelation 6:3  When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature+say: “Come!” 4  Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.+
8  And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave* was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage+ and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Arauna, you use words that you will not be able to "buy and sell". 
Do you see any connection to Revelation 13:16  It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead,+ 17  and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name+ of the wild beast or the number of its name

@James Thomas Rook Jr. 
Don't worry about swimming. Revelation 12 talks about flying.13  Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth,+ it persecuted the woman+who gave birth to the male child. 14  But the two wings of the great eagle+ were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time*+ away from the face of the serpent.+
Here the woman represents the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses. Soon the persecution will begin and it will be wise to flee together somewhere until Goog attacks.

I am writing this on Sunday 12/9 at about 3:30 PM.
On Thursday night I drove up here to Warwick with relatives. We completed the five exhibits at Warwick, spoke with some Bethelites we knew, and attended the Sunday morning meeting held in the Bethel Auditorium where the "Long Meadow" congregation meets. This is a congregation of about 180 persons, some of whom travel from up to about half-an-hour away, and many (if not most) of the members are Bethelites who live in the HQ complex on site.
Tomorrow we'll go to Wallkill.
The first thing you notice from setting your smartphone maps and GPS routing systems is that the Warwick Bethel is not in Warwick. It's actually all within the borders and limits of Tuxedo Park, NY. If you look at the back of the Warwick Bethel brochure you'll see that 1 Kings Drive, Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 is the actual address. 
The name was picked, I assume, because Warwick is a town just a little farther away, in another zip code (10990), and smaller than Tuxedo Park, but with a name that sounds just a bit more Biblical. It's a name that also sounds a bit more alliterative: as in, "Watchtower at Wallkill" and "Watchtower at Warwick." Wars, Wicks, Walls, and Kills are all found in the Bible, but no Tuxedos of any stripe.
The exhibits were very good. I'll find my previous post that discusses them and try to get it to land below this one.

Mr Butler -  so loving ...     How loving did the Pharisees and others think Jesus was when Jesus cleansed the Temple ?
How loving did the Pharisees think Jesus was when Jesus called them hypocrites, and told them they were from their father the Devil ?
True criticism is not from hate, it is from a love of Almighty God and His son Jesus Christ. 

Hello Anna, you are right. Some are so obsessed with the sins of the Governing Body that they twist every negative figure in the Bible and apply them on the Governing Boby. Some twist the scriptures about the man of sin, the wild beast, the false prophet in Revelation and falsely apply on the WT organization and on the GB, instead of correctly applying those scriptures on political worldy entities, of which some have not even yet shown up.
And I see from your post that you have educated yourself about how the world is run in the reality. 
I found a few years back this documentary done by a history teacher about how secret societies run the world and the wars in the world. And interesting that he came to the conclusion that they are the mystery woman Babylon the Great guilty of all the deaths. At 1:58:00 he starts to comment about that. And he points out that the secret societies the last 100 years have had New York as their capital city.
 

Yes of course, Satan is in control of the world, and that perfectly explains the "mess", but by discussing these things we are not making ourselves a part of it are we? Not only that, but notice that my reason for my initial comment was because I have someone who is interested in the Bible, but who is actually involved in one sector of what we are discussing. The reason for me to "educate" myself, at least with what the various terminology means, is so that I can better understand what this person is talking about. If I have no idea, then how can I address anything they say properly? Besides, there is no harm in educating ourselves, no matter what it is. Being ignorant can make someone believe things are false to be true, or conversely, things that are true they may believe are false,  and that in turn can lead to bad decisions and as a consequence a host of other undesirable things. So I don't think anyone is trying to sidetrack or smokescreen. On the contrary, these kind of conversations help to establish facts. No one knows everything, so although you say you are uneducated, you probably know a host of things others don't. I wouldn't say I am educated, but I do have a thirst for knowledge, and I crave facts Of course a Christian's prime focus should be in gaining accurate knowledge about God and his purpose. That's a given.

Hello John Butler,
We are approuching the final 1260, 1290, 1335, 2300 days spoken of in the book of Daniel and Revelation.
A very easy way to determine that is by understanding that Donald Trump is the fierce-looking king spoken of in Daniel 8:23-25. And in an earlier vision Daniel saw a little horn that grows bigger and bigger and has eyes and a mouth that speaks arrogantly.(Daniel 7) This part of that vision is about the same king as in Daniel 8:23-25. 
This king or horn will during his reign begin to persecute the saints and he will be allowed to do that during 1260 days or in other words during a time, times and half a time. 
So because Donald Trump is this king and this horn in the prophecy in Daniel's book, it means that we are really living in the end times. And the 1260 day period of persecution should begin during Donald Trump's reign. So it should happen within maximum of a few years.

The way USA bombs is in accord with the prophetic description of the American empire. And nothing will change that except God's Kingdom when it comes and crushes all the other kingdoms.
Daniel 7:7  “After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it trampled down with its feet.+ It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns. 
19  “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet;+ 20  and about the ten horns+ on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three fell,+ the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly* and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others.
We have ample evidence of this. USA with its allies bombed Japan with nuclear bombs, devastated North Korea with bombs in the Korean war. The same happened in Vietnam. And after that Afganistan and Irak and Libya and now Syria. 

@Space Merchant I think i will continue to like every comment you dislike just for the fun of it all. You seem to love linking me with others, so be it. I will join in your game and it will become fun for me. A bit of light hearted pleasure. 
As for you implying something like 'Butler said that the GB of JW org are demonised'  Well maybe they are . 
Jesus said as recorded at John 8 v 44 
 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began,c and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees but they had been God's chosen people, part of God's chosen nation. Yet he said they were from their father the Devil.  So, think on it, why cannot the GB of JW Org be from 'their father the Devil' ? And if that is correct they would be demonised, or would that be Devilised.  
Remember that many Jews / Israelites remained in their Jewish faith, but they were wrong not to change. So just because the JW Org has 8 million followers, does not make it right.  If the amount of people in a religion made it right then the Catholic church or Islam would be more right than the JW Org  
 
 

Hi John Butler,
I wanted to go back to JW memorial because I believe that in the end I will be helping them during the final tribulation time. So I do not want that they forget me. I believe something similar will happen as happened to Joseph who was sold by his brothers to Egypt. 
And unfortunately I do not know other anointed in my area. 
And I understand that you feel unsure now, when the anointed among themselves can not agree on many vital things. So it is up to you to decide who of the anointed is understanding the Bible right. In the begining of WT org Charles Russell looked around and learned scattered pieces of truth from different sources. I think that is a way to learn. Some youtube preachers could have examined specific biblical subjects and got it right without JW background. For me it does not matter what the source is, if the arguments are sound and real. And in accord with the Bible.
This deplorable situation among the anointed themselves is actually fortold in Malachi. The anointed are symbolized by the sons of Levi, that need a serious cleansing.  This prophecy had a partial fulfillment in the first centry when John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus, the messenger of the covenant. But as many prophesies in the Bible there should be a second fulfilment. The WT teaches that the second fulfilment happened in the early history of the WT org, when the WT organization and its early members were supposedly cleansed. But evidently the sons of Levi, the anointed were far from cleansed to the core at that time, as described in Malichi 3:3. So  we should expect that suddenly Jesus will start the cleansing of the anointed, as the messenger of the covenant.  And logically before this cleansing period things would be out of order.
Here is the verses in Malachi:
Malachi 3:1 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me.+ And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple;+and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.2  “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3  And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and will cleanse the sons of Leʹvi; and he will clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 
 
And a note-worthy prophecy we find in Malachi 4:5. This prophecy likewise got its first partial  fulfillment on John the Baptist. But the verse speaks about Elijah's coming before the awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. So this "Elijah" should come before Armageddon and teach God's people. So there is hope according to the Bible.
Malachi 4:5  “Look! I am sending to you E·liʹjah the prophet before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.+ 6  And he will turn the hearts of fathers back toward sons,+ and the hearts of sons back toward fathers, so that I may not come and strike the earth, devoting it to destruction.”
 

Dear old Tom. It is you that cannot distinguish between what is important and what is not. 
The fact that people have probably died because of lies told by your GB and the puppet Elders. 
And the fact that your GB act like Hitler giving orders which result in disfellowshipping people, which is in fact, in the eyes of the GB, killing people spiritually, which will eventually kill them physically at Armageddon. 

What rubbish you write. Complying has nothing to do with cheerleading or campaigning against. 
Complying means obeying rules laid down by others. In this case it's the GB and the puppet Elders laying down the rules for all JW's to obey.  It's quite simple OBEY or GET DISFELLOWSHIPPED.  There are no other options in the JW Org.  

Your comment is perfect, and so true.
When i have said these things I have been greatly criticized. You are almost saying as i have said. The Elders are only puppets for the GB.  The Elders do not want to think for themselves. They only want to keep their positions of power in the Organisation. 
And the GB and it's puppet Elders are only interested in making the JW Organisation 'look good' from the outside.
How right Jesus was when he explained to clean the inside of the bowl or dish so that the outside would also be clean. 
As a note, my wife is not baptised because she doesn't want to be controlled by the Elders or the GB.  She realised a long time ago the same things you are saying. 

Before I was baptized I thought that you can always question every JW doctrine and that the Watchtower will always have scripturaly based answers for their doctrines. So I felt safe to be baptized. But I did not know that after you are baptized you have no more right to question the truthfulness of any doctine. And if you don't understand their explanation you have to comply anyway. 
If I had known that the WT-organization works like that, I doubt I had been baptized. 
To the contrary I heard the circuit overseer explain how honest and sincere the WT organization is. He claimed in a speech that if a person finds a fault in WT doctine and can show it from the Bible, then absolutely the WT organization will change the doctrine. 
It was with this mind I was baptized. But it became evident that that is not how the WT org works. When I had found scriptural evidence against some WT doctrines I wanted to show my elders. They came to my place, but they refused to look at my findings. They refused to look at the scriptures I wanted to show them. They were not going to examine the scriptures. I was amazed, what was going on? Now I understand that elders act according to WT procedures. They don't think about what is right or true. The only thing that matters to them is to obey the GB. The Bible and the truth comes always on the second place. 
That is the moment when the truth has ceased to be the truth. 
Actually the elders even openly at the meerings said that the unity is more important than the truth. They justify that with saying that Jehovah will anyway later correct everything.
But where will the elders and GB be when Jehovah corrects what it wrong? They might as well find themselves in trouble. 
As Bible-history shows, those who opposed truth tellers in the past got in trouble.

Before I was baptized I thought that you can always question every JW doctrine and that the Watchtower will always have scripturaly based answers for their doctrines. So I felt safe to be baptized. But I did not know that after you are baptized you have no more right to question the truthfulness of any doctine. And if you don't understand their explanation you have to comply anyway. 
If I had known that the WT-organization works like that, I doubt I had been baptized. 
To the contrary I heard the circuit overseer explain how honest and sincere the WT organization is. He claimed in a speech that if a person finds a fault in WT doctine and can show it from the Bible, then absolutely the WT organization will change the doctrine. 
It was with this mind I was baptized. But it became evident that that is not how the WT org works. When I had found scriptural evidence against some WT doctrines I wanted to show my elders. They came to my place, but they refused to look at my findings. They refused to look at the scriptures I wanted to show them. They were not going to examine the scriptures. I was amazed, what was going on? Now I understand that elders act according to WT procedures. They don't think about what is right or true. The only thing that matters to them is to obey the GB. The Bible and the truth comes always on the second place. 
That is the moment when the truth has ceased to be the truth. 
Actually the elders even openly at the meerings said that the unity is more important than the truth. They justify that with saying that Jehovah will anyway later correct everything.
But where will the elders and GB be when Jehovah corrects what it wrong? They might as well find themselves in trouble. 
As Bible-history shows, those who opposed truth tellers in the past got in trouble.

Before I was baptized I thought that you can always question every JW doctrine and that the Watchtower will always have scripturaly based answers for their doctrines. So I felt safe to be baptized. But I did not know that after you are baptized you have no more right to question the truthfulness of any doctine. And if you don't understand their explanation you have to comply anyway. 
If I had known that the WT-organization works like that, I doubt I had been baptized. 
To the contrary I heard the circuit overseer explain how honest and sincere the WT organization is. He claimed in a speech that if a person finds a fault in WT doctine and can show it from the Bible, then absolutely the WT organization will change the doctrine. 
It was with this mind I was baptized. But it became evident that that is not how the WT org works. When I had found scriptural evidence against some WT doctrines I wanted to show my elders. They came to my place, but they refused to look at my findings. They refused to look at the scriptures I wanted to show them. They were not going to examine the scriptures. I was amazed, what was going on? Now I understand that elders act according to WT procedures. They don't think about what is right or true. The only thing that matters to them is to obey the GB. The Bible and the truth comes always on the second place. 
That is the moment when the truth has ceased to be the truth. 
Actually the elders even openly at the meerings said that the unity is more important than the truth. They justify that with saying that Jehovah will anyway later correct everything.
But where will the elders and GB be when Jehovah corrects what it wrong? They might as well find themselves in trouble. 
As Bible-history shows, those who opposed truth tellers in the past got in trouble.