At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

Srecko Sostar · September 18, 2018

Just one of many changes WT made in recent years.

¹⁹In review, what have we learned? In the beginning of this article, we raised three “when” questions. We first considered that the great tribulation did not begin in 1914 but will start when the United Nations attacks Babylon the Great. Then, we reviewed why Jesus’ judgment of the sheep and the goats did not begin in 1914 but will occur during the great tribulation. Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation. So, then, all three “whens” apply to the same future time period—the great tribulation. How does this adjusted view further affect our understanding of the illustration of the faithful slave? Also, how does it affect our understanding of other parables, or illustrations, of Jesus that are being fulfilled during this time of the end? These important questions will be considered in the following articles.

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Here in this paragraph we see just some of many changes from past teachings in Watchtower ideology.

Well, questions are as follow:

What is The Truth?
Can The Truth Stop To Be True?
Does The Truth have the Owner?
Why do some people like to claim that Only They know a Certain Truth?
Does some Truth exists outside of our awareness of the existence of such truth?
Why do we argue how some Truth or Truths can never change?
Why can not we name The Truth, which has ceased to be true, that it is a Lie or at least Not The Truth?

Do these truths from paragraph 19 cease to be true on the day of publication in the Watchtower Journal on July 15 2013 or are they, in fact, have never been The Truth?

Martha Braun Amistadi · September 18, 2018

We come to know the "ring" of truth as we study it prayerfully and diligently. Our minds and hearts accept the logic as facts fall in to place clearly. Jehovah's holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand what we are reading. Right food at it's proper time. Then, what's unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way as we believe, in our time. This is unifying and Jehovah liberates us from a world of division by what Jesus said at John 17:17: "Your word is the truth." The Bible is God's expression, breathed into the mind of men, handpicked by him to accomplish this beautiful guide for life. It's a comfort to hear our Father's voice when we read the Bible.

Srecko Sostar · September 18, 2018

6 minutes ago, Martha Braun Amistadi said:

We come to know the "ring" of truth as we study it prayerfully and diligently. Our minds and hearts accept the logic as facts fall in to place clearly. Jehovah's holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand what we are reading. Right food at it's proper time. Then, what's unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way as we believe, in our time. This is unifying and Jehovah liberates us from a world of division by what Jesus said at John 17:17: "Your word is the truth." The Bible is God's expression, breathed into the mind of men, handpicked by him to accomplish this beautiful guide for life. It's a comfort to hear our Father's voice when we read the Bible.

thanks for respond

James Thomas Rook Jr. · October 30, 2018

At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

In a nutshell .... "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth", when best guesses, and opinions are represented as exclusive direction and revelations from God ...... without qualifying clearly and unambiguously that they are ONLY best guesses, and considered opinions.

There is of course a VERY serious problem with being direct and honest with people with whom you publish your opinions to ... IF ... if you DO NOT represent your thinking as the directed " Voice of God" ...

.... they will not give you money, and you will miss meals, and sleep cold at night ... or have to get a REAL job... and you will not be revered as a wise person (or persons).

The next thing on the list is that you have to seriously disparage getting more than a basic education to those you are deluding ... for fear that they will become smarter than you, and figure this out.

... and you lose MONEY!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · October 30, 2018

There is a LOT of money, prestiege, accolades, and status to be had in making yourself into a fortune teller, Shaman, Witch Doctor, Snake-Oil Salesman, Prophet, Prognosticator, Savant, Priest, Counselor, Governing Body, or Elder.

A LOT of money!

Technically ... it may not be yours ... but you control it ... without any accountability whatsoever, to those footing the bill.

Not your "followers".

Not even the IRS.

... even if you have taken a vow of poverty ... you fly Business Class, and stay in very fine hotels, sleep warm, eat well, and have a staff to do anything you want done.

It is a VERY FINE OCCUPATION, much to be sought after, .... if you can keep up the razzle-dazzle .... and keep down your gag reflex.

Srecko Sostar · November 1, 2018

On 9/18/2018 at 9:19 PM, Martha Braun Amistadi said:

We come to know the "ring" of truth as we study it prayerfully and diligently. Our minds and hearts accept the logic as facts fall in to place clearly. Jehovah's holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand what we are reading. Right food at it's proper time. Then, what's unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way as we believe, in our time.

1) study it

many JW study Bible, but how it is possible that also many of them not saw "errors" in doctrines for all this decades. How is possible that many JW accepted so many teaching and instructions that was later been abandoned? Well it seems how something is/was lacking in our personal Bible study for all these years "in the truth".

2) accept the logic as facts

as we all are witnesses to that too, wrong logic can deceive us.

3) holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand

do you talking, in this statement, about "to be inspired" by God? If you are, than this is contrariwise, in opposition to GB claim how them, as anointed ones, are not inspired by holy spirit. If anointed are not inspired, how non-anointed can be inspired? To confuse and make foggy on all this, that same GB teaching how, despite the fact they are "not inspired by spirit", they are "guided by spirit". :))

4) unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way

It is "unique" too, how people in some periods of time accepted also some teachings and was been deceived. Modern examples are; Nazi ideology and era when millions of German people followed Fuhrer, or Communism ideology in east Europe or more better example is China people or North Korea. Millions of people accepted teachings in same way. Capitalism is also unique ideology for millions worldwide.

Witness · November 1, 2018

On 9/18/2018 at 12:19 PM, Martha Braun Amistadi said:

We come to know the "ring" of truth as we study it prayerfully and diligently.

The first “ring of truth” may be authentic; the succeeding peals could be deadly.

“Will a bird fall into a snare on the earth, where there is no trap for it?
Will a snare spring up from the earth, if it has caught nothing at all?” Amos 3:5

‘For among My people are found wicked men;
They lie in wait as one who sets snares;
They set a trap;
They catch men.” Jer 5:26

Of what importance is loyalty to Jehovahˈs organization? If we truly appreciate Jehovah’s earthly organization, we will remain loyal to it, knowing that the organization is his. w73 7/1 pp. 401-407

Now is the time to flee from doomed Christendom and find refuge in Jehovah’s organization. w50 7/1 pp. 195-198

“refuge in Jehovah’s organization”?

On 9/18/2018 at 12:26 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Our minds and hearts accept the logic as facts fall in to place clearly.

Please, see the logic:

“Who will you compare me or make me equal to?
Who will you measure Me with,
so that we should be like each other?

Remember what happened long ago,
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and no one is like Me." Isa 46:5,9

"God, hear my voice when I am in anguish.
Protect my life from the terror of the enemy.
²Hide me from the scheming of wicked people,
from the mob of evildoers,
³who sharpen their tongues like swords
and aim bitter words like arrows,
⁴shooting from concealed places at the blameless.
They shoot at him suddenly and are not afraid.
⁵They adopt an evil plan;
they talk about hiding traps and say,
“Who will see them?”
⁶They devise crimes and say,
“We have perfected a secret plan.”
The inner man and the heart are mysterious.

⁷But God will shoot them with arrows;
suddenly, they will be wounded.
⁸They will be made to stumble;
their own tongues work against them.
All who see them will shake their heads.
⁹Then everyone will fear
and will tell about God’s work,
for they will understand what he has done.

¹⁰The righteous one rejoices in the Lord
and takes refuge in Him;
all those who are upright in heart
will offer praise.” Ps 64

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 2, 2018

There are many "Moments of Truth", in every form of human endeavor.

Seinfeld The Marine Biologist.mp4

Witness · November 2, 2018

On 10/30/2018 at 4:24 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a LOT of money, prestiege, accolades, and status to be had in making yourself into a fortune teller, Shaman, Witch Doctor, Snake-Oil Salesman, Prophet, Prognosticator, Savant, Priest, Counselor, Governing Body, or Elder.

A LOT of money!

Technically ... it may not be yours ... but you control it ... without any accountability whatsoever, to those footing the bill.

Not your "followers".

Not even the IRS.

... even if you have taken a vow of poverty ... you fly Business Class, and stay in very fine hotels, sleep warm, eat well, and have a staff to do anything you want done.

It is a VERY FINE OCCUPATION, much to be sought after, .... if you can keep up the razzle-dazzle .... and keep down your gag reflex.

Take heart, change is afoot.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Rev 22:12-15

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, Witness said:

Take heart, change is afoot.

I do try to do that ... when I play Poker with the guys from the Motorcycle Club, the object is to take the other guys heart out, and eat it.

Or, as Sherlock Holmes once said ... "The game is afoot!"

Family Guy - Learning About Religion.mp4

Space Merchant · November 2, 2018

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Just one of many changes WT made in recent years.

¹⁹In review, what have we learned? In the beginning of this article, we raised three “when” questions. We first considered that the great tribulation did not begin in 1914 but will start when the United Nations attacks Babylon the Great. Then, we reviewed why Jesus’ judgment of the sheep and the goats did not begin in 1914 but will occur during the great tribulation. Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation. So, then, all three “whens” apply to the same future time period—the great tribulation. How does this adjusted view further affect our understanding of the illustration of the faithful slave? Also, how does it affect our understanding of other parables, or illustrations, of Jesus that are being fulfilled during this time of the end? These important questions will be considered in the following articles.

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But the irony here is we know Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Student at the time, believed Jesus to become King and both the existing and non-existing Christian denominations stood by the Bible Students. Furthermore, it is not unknown to anyone what the War in Heaven was all about and what happen in 1914, for it was not war only that took place, a great sickness and several earthquakes took place that steam for some years, this is not unknown to anyone.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Here in this paragraph we see just some of many changes from past teachings in Watchtower ideology.

Their Christology as always been the same if you understood the pastor of the Bible Students, Russell's, study and application of Jesus becoming a King that year. For if it had changed, the gospel would have ceased prior to what happen, for even the JWs know that a time will come when their preaching will cease - which was not he case.

I posted here before of all existing and non-existing faiths that shared that same view of Jesus becoming a King in that time and Satan's cast out resulting in the sickness, war and death that took place all in 1914 at a grand scale.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

What is The Truth?

The truth stems from the very inspired Scriptures from the Bible. For it is used to teach, to profess, and to give/take insight (2 Timothy 3:16)

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Can The Truth Stop To Be True?

No, it cannot. After what went down mid-2015, the truth about God will prevail, nothing can stop it, for God's Word triumphs all who try to change and or stop it. As did our Church Fathers who defended the truth, as do us all who know what is the truth.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Does The Truth have the Owner?

God the Father, the one and only El Shaddai. He is the God of our Lord, Christ Jesus, he is the God of me, and he is the God of you.

Praise Yah.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Why do some people like to claim that Only They know a Certain Truth?

Because from the 4th century and onward, falsehood at entered into the teachings. So there is 2 factions, those with the truth and those who do not have the truth, and both faction consist of groups.

So those who claim they know and or have the truth, speaks the truth if they adhere to the teachings of the Church and apply it by means of ministering, preaching, what have you.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Does some Truth exists outside of our awareness of the existence of such truth?

No because others who claim to have the truth do not have it. They abide by the accursed teachings that are not of the Church and will do anything and everything to justify it as truth when it is not i.e. religious authority is solely men and not women but they preach women can do the same when it is against God's Order, moreover, they will go above and beyond to say you are shaming women and or being ungodly because of defending God's order. We also have those who have the Bible to defend and justify homosexuality, altering Paul's Words or what happen in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Among all things, one of the things that is against the true is the Trinity.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Why do we argue how some Truth or Truths can never change?

The real truth can never change, if anything, those who study the truth make adjustment to Christ-life lifestyle and application of Scripture, especially in times when things are changing and new things from the Bible is learned.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Why can not we name The Truth, which has ceased to be true, that it is a Lie or at least Not The Truth?

Because one can tell what is truth and what is not truth. God allows those who can see and understand the truth, inasmuch, to apply said truth. And when a truth is known, nothing will stop God's people from what is true in this imperfect world.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:20 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Do these truths from paragraph 19 cease to be true on the day of publication in the Watchtower Journal on July 15 2013 or are they, in fact, have never been The Truth?

Well you have the book right there, it shouldn't be hard to see what it is conveying. But you are one to not read into things as with all discussions.

On 11/1/2018 at 2:18 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

1) study it

many JW study Bible, but how it is possible that also many of them not saw "errors" in doctrines for all this decades. How is possible that many JW accepted so many teaching and instructions that was later been abandoned? Well it seems how something is/was lacking in our personal Bible study for all these years "in the truth".

That is because in Restorationism, when they learn new things, mainly when it comes to application and or a shift in lifestyle, they apply it. For example, it is no surprise that Bible Students use to celebrate Christmas, as did those before them, but when they later learn the origins of the holiday, they ceased it, although they didn't take an extreme approach as their counterparts, but the application has been made, therefore, it can be noted, even by fact, that Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed Restorationist Christians, which is also fact according to their practices in a book I cited before.

On 11/1/2018 at 2:18 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

2) accept the logic as facts

as we all are witnesses to that too, wrong logic can deceive us.

As to what facts are you pointing to? So far I do not see any deception, as of recently that becomes true back in October whereas one can see who is on the right side regarding God.

On 11/1/2018 at 2:18 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

3) holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand

do you talking, in this statement, about "to be inspired" by God? If you are, than this is contrariwise, in opposition to GB claim how them, as anointed ones, are not inspired by holy spirit. If anointed are not inspired, how non-anointed can be inspired? To confuse and make foggy on all this, that same GB teaching how, despite the fact they are "not inspired by spirit", they are "guided by spirit". :))

God Word is inspired. As for the chosen ones of which you call anointed, they are not inspired or claim to be, never have they made such a claim. Even in the Bible we also see this, for example, the Mother of Samuel was mistaken to be a crazed drunk by a man of God, High Priest Eli, when in reality she was praying,

Every year, Elkanah would offer a sacrifice at the Shiloh sanctuary, and give Penninah and her children a portion but he gave Hannah a double portion "because he loved her, and the LORD [YHWH] had closed her womb" (1 Samuel 1:5). One day Hannah went up to the temple, and prayed with great weeping (I Samuel 1:10), while Eli the High Priest was sitting on a chair near the doorpost.

In her prayer, she asked God for a son and in return she vowed to give the son back to God for the service of God. She promised he would remain a Nazarite all the days of his life. According to Lillian Klein, the value of women is demonstrably enhanced by their child-bearing capacities. The narrative takes her pain and places it in her personal failure and then draws it out in a communal context. The desperation of Hannah’s vow indicates that merely bearing a male child would establish her in the community.

Eli thought she was drunk and questioned her. When she explained herself, he blessed her and sent her home. Hannah conceived and bore a son, and named him Samuel, literally Heard by God, "since she had asked the Lord for him" (1 Samuel 1:20 ). The role of women giving names in premonarchic Israel suggests an authoritative social role, at least within the family. She raised him until he was weaned and brought him to the temple along with a sacrifice.

And we have other examples too, in the Bible, so it is not a surprise today when anyone who is said to be chosen by God is not inspired, but they speak of God's Word, which is inspired. Let that sink in.

On 11/1/2018 at 2:18 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

4) unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way

It is "unique" too, how people in some periods of time accepted also some teachings and was been deceived. Modern examples are; Nazi ideology and era when millions of German people followed Fuhrer, or Communism ideology in east Europe or more better example is China people or North Korea. Millions of people accepted teachings in same way. Capitalism is also unique ideology for millions worldwide.

And what does this have to do with people accepting Bible Truth?

I recall I told you when I visited Thailand, I spoke to some there who didn't even know what a Bible was, and they later learned not what a bible is, but God's Word. Elsewhere I seen women who strive to serve God 100% and even in Africa as well.

Perhaps if you did what Jesus did when he actually preached, according to the four gospel accounts, and that his own followers preached, as with the the Christians of Pentecost who went out like an army to preach the gospel, you'd see that for yourself.

If the Lord asks you to spread the message, that is a command, if you ignore that command, well, when the Christ returns, you won't be recognized at all.

Space Merchant · November 2, 2018

On 10/30/2018 at 7:24 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a LOT of money, prestiege, accolades, and status to be had in making yourself into a fortune teller, Shaman, Witch Doctor, Snake-Oil Salesman, Prophet, Prognosticator, Savant, Priest, Counselor, Governing Body, or Elder.

A LOT of money!

Technically ... it may not be yours ... but you control it ... without any accountability whatsoever, to those footing the bill.

Not your "followers".

Not even the IRS.

... even if you have taken a vow of poverty ... you fly Business Class, and stay in very fine hotels, sleep warm, eat well, and have a staff to do anything you want done.

It is a VERY FINE OCCUPATION, much to be sought after, .... if you can keep up the razzle-dazzle .... and keep down your gag reflex.

Granted I had witnessed and had experienced an aftermath of both shamans and Witch-Doctors, they do not take money, or bribes. The only thing they care for is blood, death and power, for money is meaningless to them. Actually followers of the Devil believe they can gain power from him which puts others as risk, a very high risk. There are some things taking place that will not allow you to sleep peacefully at night.

That being said, nothing cannot bring down the apostolic church, many have tried, no one can stop it, and her people. There are those for God and those against him and those against him will be met with the Sword of the Christ and the army of which God gave him.

So anything regarding occultism, dark magic and or blood rituals, etc. All this will be purged from the earth for good.

Space Merchant · November 2, 2018

@Martha Braun Amistadi You will not get a message across to someone who does not accept/agree the bible 100% and it's teachings.

Thinking · November 2, 2018

On 11/1/2018 at 4:48 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

1) study it

many JW study Bible, but how it is possible that also many of them not saw "errors" in doctrines for all this decades. How is possible that many JW accepted so many teaching and instructions that was later been abandoned? Well it seems how something is/was lacking in our personal Bible study for all these years "in the truth".

2) accept the logic as facts

as we all are witnesses to that too, wrong logic can deceive us.

3) holy spirit opens our minds and hearts wide to understand

do you talking, in this statement, about "to be inspired" by God? If you are, than this is contrariwise, in opposition to GB claim how them, as anointed ones, are not inspired by holy spirit. If anointed are not inspired, how non-anointed can be inspired? To confuse and make foggy on all this, that same GB teaching how, despite the fact they are "not inspired by spirit", they are "guided by spirit". :))

4) unique above all, is how the Bible's teachings are accepted by millions of people in just the same way

It is "unique" too, how people in some periods of time accepted also some teachings and was been deceived. Modern examples are; Nazi ideology and era when millions of German people followed Fuhrer, or Communism ideology in east Europe or more better example is China people or North Korea. Millions of people accepted teachings in same way. Capitalism is also unique ideology for millions worldwide.

The apostles also believed errors....in thinking Jesus Kingdom was coming there and then ...and he would be a king amongst them.....and the thing is....Jesus ALLOWED that error to be believed by them....he knew exactly what they were hoping in and believing.....yet he deliberately chose for them to go on believing that lie or mistaken belief ...

im sure there was more to that than I can work out..but I can see it was a testing and a threshing of their faith....they had made their own assumptions...and leant on their own understandings.....much like we as a people have...at times....and he has allowed it once again...and for more good and spiritual reasons that I can work out.....but I have worked a bit out...and it is a time of confusion and threshing and sifting....

we are very much like the Christians of Jesus times....nothing seems to be working out like we thought...we have assumed wrong things...taught wrong things...some really major stuff ups actually ...

without doubt....each and every one of Jehovah’s people are being sifted...our errors are being allowed....

Your missing the big picture Srecho.....since when has his people ever been with out errror...it’s a pattern we have down thru the ages....the Israelites...the Jewish System....and he warmed us about wolves in sheeps clothing infiltrating the congs and misleading many....the Jambares and jannis type of men...

You have put too much faith in Men my brother...and you have allowed them to stumble you.....look beyond them...and to Jehovah....he will correct the errors as he always has done with his people....

i know it’s very hard and painful ...at times agonizing...but being threshed and winnowed is just that....

Jehovah forgave Aaron his betrayal...he forgave Peter his betrayals.....also stop and think about this....the Jewish System was so bad...so self righteous and pious.(those in positions of authority )..yet Jehovah still allowed that people..his people....to birth the messiah....incredible really isn’t it....he put his son right in the midst of them...

what you wrote above is all true...logical.....I get what your saying and why you say it....but I’m sorry but I still feel you are missing the big picture....but hey...I miss a lot of fine details.....actually I often wonder why he bothers with any of us...:)

Srecko Sostar · November 2, 2018

@Thinking

thanks for respond :))

Srecko Sostar · November 2, 2018

29 minutes ago, Thinking said:

The apostles also believed errors.

29 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Jesus ALLOWED that error to be believed

29 minutes ago, Thinking said:

yet he deliberately chose for them to go on believing that lie or mistaken belief

30 minutes ago, Thinking said:

we have assumed wrong things...taught wrong things...some really major stuff ups actually ...

31 minutes ago, Thinking said:

since when has his people ever been with out errror.

31 minutes ago, Thinking said:

it’s a pattern we have

35 minutes ago, Thinking said:

You have put too much faith in Men my brother.

Dear Thinking and final words of Yours is:

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

what you wrote above is all true...logical

Thanks!

JOHN BUTLER · November 2, 2018

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

The apostles also believed errors....in thinking Jesus Kingdom was coming there and then ...and he would be a king amongst them.....and the thing is....Jesus ALLOWED that error to be believed by them....he knew exactly what they were hoping in and believing.....yet he deliberately chose for them to go on believing that lie or mistaken belief ...

im sure there was more to that than I can work out..but I can see it was a testing and a threshing of their faith....they had made their own assumptions...and leant on their own understandings.....much like we as a people have...at times....and he has allowed it once again...and for more good and spiritual reasons that I can work out.....but I have worked a bit out...and it is a time of confusion and threshing and sifting....

we are very much like the Christians of Jesus times....nothing seems to be working out like we thought...we have assumed wrong things...taught wrong things...some really major stuff ups actually ...

without doubt....each and every one of Jehovah’s people are being sifted...our errors are being allowed....

Your missing the big picture Srecho.....since when has his people ever been with out errror...it’s a pattern we have down thru the ages....the Israelites...the Jewish System....and he warmed us about wolves in sheeps clothing infiltrating the congs and misleading many....the Jambares and jannis type of men...

You have put too much faith in Men my brother...and you have allowed them to stumble you.....look beyond them...and to Jehovah....he will correct the errors as he always has done with his people....

i know it’s very hard and painful ...at times agonizing...but being threshed and winnowed is just that....

Jehovah forgave Aaron his betrayal...he forgave Peter his betrayals.....also stop and think about this....the Jewish System was so bad...so self righteous and pious.(those in positions of authority )..yet Jehovah still allowed that people..his people....to birth the messiah....incredible really isn’t it....he put his son right in the midst of them...

what you wrote above is all true...logical.....I get what your saying and why you say it....but I’m sorry but I still feel you are missing the big picture....but hey...I miss a lot of fine details.....actually I often wonder why he bothers with any of us...:)

Luke 17 v 1&2. Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! ² It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.

The GB should take not.

Equivocation · November 2, 2018

@JOHN BUTLER If they never claimed to be inspired, it should be obvious that they are taking notes. The Bible verses you posted cites what context of it reads, the nwt Bible shows this too.

Us men are imperfect, and even prophets, priests and the anointed fits this description, for in present day, we still never heard them, orally say they are, not even in the past and there is evidence.

causes for stumbling: Or “stumbling blocks.” The original meaning of the Greek word skanʹda·lon is thought to have referred to a trap; some suggest that it was the stick in the trap to which bait was attached. By extension, the word came to refer to any impediment that would cause one to stumble or fall. In a figurative sense, it refers to an action or a circumstance that leads a person to follow an improper course, to stumble or fall morally, or to fall into sin. At Luke 17:2, the related verb skan·da·liʹzo, translated “stumble,” could also be rendered “become a snare to; cause to sin.”

Martha Braun Amistadi · November 2, 2018

Truth from Jehovah always will be. Our imperfect brains cannot always understand it when it first shines. (Prov.3:5, 6) When Jesus spoke about people eating his flesh and drinking his blood, the faithful apostle Peter, not comprehending what Jesus meant, was asked by Him: "You do not want to go also, do you?" Simon Peter answered him: " Lord,whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. We have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God. " Peter didn't quite get what he'd just learned. Did that mean Jesus wasn't the "Anointed One" ? Peter knew from whom he had learned the truth. Paul pointed the same out to Timothy and what he should do. (2Tim. 3:14, 15) What organization brought the Truth to us? Jehovah's Witnesses made plain the importance of the Bible in learning about God and His purposes. Foremost of these surrounds His glorious Name. Where else do we find a people for His Name? (Matt.6:9, 10; Acts 15:14) So, what we don't yet understand, we humbly wait for from Jehovah in His time. We also don't stir up controversy, arguing about words. (Psa. 62:1-8; 2 Tim. 2:14, 15) Clearly, Jesus appointed our Governing Body. (Matt. 24:45-47) Careful, personal study, along with heartfelt prayer, use of publications they've provided us will be helpful. Humbly, peacefully ask your congregation overseers also to help. May Jehovah's holy spirit bring peace to us all.

Thinking · November 2, 2018

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Luke 17 v 1&2. Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! ² It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.

The GB should take not.

So should you and I John....

JOHN BUTLER · November 2, 2018

20 minutes ago, Martha Braun Amistadi said:

Truth from Jehovah always will be. Our imperfect brains cannot always understand it when it first shines. (Prov.3:5, 6) When Jesus spoke about people eating his flesh and drinking his blood, the faithful apostle Peter, not comprehending what Jesus meant, was asked by Him: "You do not want to go also, do you?" Simon Peter answered him: " Lord,whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. We have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God. " Peter didn't quite get what he'd just learned. Did that mean Jesus wasn't the "Anointed One" ? Peter knew from whom he had learned the truth. Paul pointed the same out to Timothy and what he should do. (2Tim. 3:14, 15) What organization brought the Truth to us? Jehovah's Witnesses made plain the importance of the Bible in learning about God and His purposes. Foremost of these surrounds His glorious Name. Where else do we find a people for His Name? (Matt.6:9, 10; Acts 15:14) So, what we don't yet understand, we humbly wait for from Jehovah in His time. We also don't stir up controversy, arguing about words. (Psa. 62:1-8; 2 Tim. 2:14, 15) Clearly, Jesus appointed our Governing Body. (Matt. 24:45-47) Careful, personal study, along with heartfelt prayer, use of publications they've provided us will be helpful. Humbly, peacefully ask your congregation overseers also to help. May Jehovah's holy spirit bring peace to us all.

You say many things that you have no proof of. You seem to be just another puppet JW.

The name Jehovah was in use for a very long time before the JW's started using it. A Catholic monk maybe, started using the name ?

As for comparing your GB with Jesus that is totally wrong. Jesus PROVED who he was, even resurrecting people in God's name. What have your GB done ? Nothing but make a name for themselves in the wrong way.

You say, What organization brought the Truth to us? i say not the GB of the JW Org. Because they tell so many lies, or mistakes as they would call it. And even in the Revelation book they had to say on page nine, "It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Wow, really had faith in God then didn't they ? They have known all along that what they say is pure guesswork.

You think Jesus appointed your GB ? Dream on.

Martha, I kind of feel sorry for you. I'm not anti-JW Org completely, but I really cannot understand how anyone could swallow it all hook, line and sinker. Without any questions, not even about the Child Abuse, the Shunning, oh dear.....

JOHN BUTLER · November 2, 2018

3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

So should you and I John....

Explain please.

I don't pretend to be of the Anointed. I am not a puppet Elder. I am open about the fact that I don't understand many things in God's word.

I'm not asking anyone to follow me.

Thinking · November 2, 2018

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear Thinking and final words of Yours is:

Thanks!

You are seeing what you wish to see....still not seeing the big picture...

Thinking · November 2, 2018

5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Explain please.

I don't pretend to be of the Anointed. I am not a puppet Elder. I am open about the fact that I don't understand many things in God's word.

I'm not asking anyone to follow me.

We ALL have the power to stumble another....no matter who we Are...

JOHN BUTLER · November 2, 2018

18 minutes ago, Thinking said:

We ALL have the power to stumble another....no matter who we Are...

Yes but some pretend to have authority, so they demand attention. Whereas others are just honest in their thoughts and comments.

Thinking · November 3, 2018

17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes but some pretend to have authority, so they demand attention. Whereas others are just honest in their thoughts and comments.

Yes I know what you are saying....but the thing is..Jehovah is using them to get the job done (preaching work)...he is backing that work....and he will use whatever he has at his disposal to achieve that...for as you know he cannot bring the end until the preaching work is accomplished...but having respect for what he is using and allowing doesn’t mean we are gullible....we still must be like the beroeans who tested out Paul before they put faith in him....it’s hard but doable ..

Years ago when I was struggling with anger and resentment a brother shared this scripture with me...I’ll write it as written In the message bible...

AMOS 5:13,14

Justice is a lost cause Evil is epidemic Decent people throw up their hands, protest and Rebuke are useless a waste of time..14 seek good and not evil and live.....

Kosonen · November 3, 2018

37 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Yes I know what you are saying....but the thing is..Jehovah is using them to get the job done (preaching work)...he is backing that work....and he will use whatever he has at his disposal to achieve that...for as you know he cannot bring the end until the preaching work is accomplished...

May be not only Jehovah's witnesses are doing the preaching work? Even the Islam religion preach about Jesus' return. But instead of a 1000 year reign, they say he will reign 40 years. And that will be a very good and blessed time.

In reality Jehovah's witnesses have not touched half the humanity yet. The moslim world, most part of India and most part of China. And hardly all those people have checked jw.org.

But basic knowledge of Jesus' return is spread by different religions. But Revelation speaks about two very special witnesses that will witness during a last 42 month period. And they will do it accompanied with miracles and powerful works according to Revelation 11.

And that will not go unnoticed to the world. And those two witnesses are not the GB. But they could be two anointed brothers with Jehovah's witness' back ground.

Srecko Sostar · November 3, 2018

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

You are seeing what you wish to see....still not seeing the big picture...

....maybe, but your comment is picture you made :)) ... and that picture put such impression on my mind

... anyway, thanks for good intentions!

Martha Braun Amistadi · November 3, 2018

If anyone doesn't like what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and do, they are free to go somewhere else to seek what pleases them. Why cause negativity with those you appear to associate with, but really you have a different agenda than what appears on the surface? Beautiful pearls will not satisfy those who are porcine-like. Find your happiness without trying to undermine the joy of the unity of Jehovah's people. Yes, we know that the other religions may officially know about God's Name. But, how many call on the Name of Jehovah? Do they think upon His Name? Do they respectfully think and speak of it to others? The years I spent in Christendom were a waste. I proudly carry the Name of Jehovah, and have been carrying it for over 40 years. Perhaps, you will contritely get on your knees and approach the throne of mercy, and beg Jehovah's forgiveness. Pray for his holy spirit to guide you in the ways of understanding and peace. Leave the worldly thinking behind. Meditate on the mind of Christ, not with critical thinking as the unhappy world is filled with. Let the joy of Jehovah be your stronghold. Serve the happy God in modesty. Love His perfect word. Follow closely in Christ Jesus' footsteps. Preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. Teach the healthful pattern of words. May you find the road that leads to everlasting life.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 3, 2018

20 hours ago, Thinking said:

what you wrote above is all true...logical.....I get what your saying and why you say it....but I’m sorry but I still feel you are missing the big picture....but hey...I miss a lot of fine details.....actually I often wonder why he bothers with any of us...:)

A family in a house is to God, as a litter of puppies in a box is to us.

JOHN BUTLER · November 3, 2018

5 hours ago, Martha Braun Amistadi said:

If anyone doesn't like what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and do, they are free to go somewhere else to seek what pleases them. Why cause negativity with those you appear to associate with, but really you have a different agenda than what appears on the surface? Beautiful pearls will not satisfy those who are porcine-like. Find your happiness without trying to undermine the joy of the unity of Jehovah's people. Yes, we know that the other religions may officially know about God's Name. But, how many call on the Name of Jehovah? Do they think upon His Name? Do they respectfully think and speak of it to others? The years I spent in Christendom were a waste. I proudly carry the Name of Jehovah, and have been carrying it for over 40 years. Perhaps, you will contritely get on your knees and approach the throne of mercy, and beg Jehovah's forgiveness. Pray for his holy spirit to guide you in the ways of understanding and peace. Leave the worldly thinking behind. Meditate on the mind of Christ, not with critical thinking as the unhappy world is filled with. Let the joy of Jehovah be your stronghold. Serve the happy God in modesty. Love His perfect word. Follow closely in Christ Jesus' footsteps. Preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. Teach the healthful pattern of words. May you find the road that leads to everlasting life.

I left the JW Org at the beginning of this year due to the massive amount of Child Abuse / Pedophilia that has been and still is allowed to go on in the JW Org.

All you say about serving God, be it Yahweh or Jehovah, had no connection to the JW Org. This is something I'm trying to get into people's heads. The JW Org does not 'own' God. God, through Jesus Christ is available to anyone, not just through your GB.

The GB have in fact put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. They have said many times in the past, and it has been shown here on this website, that the GB have said, people can only be saved through Armageddon by being part of JW Org and by doing exactly what the GB say. Now that is putting themselves in the place of Jesus and its totally wrong.

JOHN BUTLER · November 3, 2018

13 hours ago, Thinking said:

Yes I know what you are saying....but the thing is..Jehovah is using them to get the job done (preaching work)...he is backing that work....and he will use whatever he has at his disposal to achieve that...for as you know he cannot bring the end until the preaching work is accomplished...but having respect for what he is using and allowing doesn’t mean we are gullible....we still must be like the beroeans who tested out Paul before they put faith in him....it’s hard but doable ..

Years ago when I was struggling with anger and resentment a brother shared this scripture with me...I’ll write it as written In the message bible...

AMOS 5:13,14

Justice is a lost cause Evil is epidemic Decent people throw up their hands, protest and Rebuke are useless a waste of time..14 seek good and not evil and live.....

Amos 5 v 13 & 14

¹³ Therefore, those with insight will keep silent at that time, For it will be a time of calamity.¹⁴ Search for what is good, and not what is bad, So that you may keep living.Then Jehovah the God of armies may be with you, Just as you say he is.

I know nothing of your message bible but it seems to have it's own words. Very strange. But read the whole chapter and you will get it in context.

However you say, 'but having respect for what he is using', Um, stop there. It is your opinion that Jehovah is using them, not mine. And when a person looks into the lies and misquotes, and backtracking, that the GB do, then a person can see that the GB is not being used as some people may think.

Thinking · November 3, 2018

The message bible is not my bible john ..I use lots of different translations but I do agree with you it can be fairly loose ..it was written for those who have never read a bible before and like simple phrases

it actuallt advises its readers that it is just a introduction bible and should be used as a stepping stone to other study translations ..sometimes I like it ..other times I find it hopeless ..yes the GB have appeared to have sat them selves in the seat of Moses .

we will all stand on a individual basis before Jehovah wether GB or not.

But you feel as you do..give yourself a break and allow some peace within yourself ..find yourself a path that gives you that..get on with your life and enjoy it .

Thinking · November 3, 2018

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the JW Org at the beginning of this year due to the massive amount of Child Abuse / Pedophilia that has been and still is allowed to go on in the JW Org.

All you say about serving God, be it Yahweh or Jehovah, had no connection to the JW Org. This is something I'm trying to get into people's heads. The JW Org does not 'own' God. God, through Jesus Christ is available to anyone, not just through your GB.

The GB have in fact put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. They have said many times in the past, and it has been shown here on this website, that the GB have said, people can only be saved through Armageddon by being part of JW Org and by doing exactly what the GB say. Now that is putting themselves in the place of Jesus and its totally wrong.

Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same.

But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,,

so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.

instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...

Thinking · November 3, 2018

I deleted this post as I think it went to the wrong person...I find it hard to navigate this forum ..

Space Merchant · November 4, 2018

On 11/2/2018 at 4:32 PM, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER If they never claimed to be inspired, it should be obvious that they are taking notes. The Bible verses you posted cites what context of it reads, the nwt Bible shows this too.

Us men are imperfect, and even prophets, priests and the anointed fits this description, for in present day, we still never heard them, orally say they are, not even in the past and there is evidence.

causes for stumbling: Or “stumbling blocks.” The original meaning of the Greek word skanʹda·lon is thought to have referred to a trap; some suggest that it was the stick in the trap to which bait was attached. By extension, the word came to refer to any impediment that would cause one to stumble or fall. In a figurative sense, it refers to an action or a circumstance that leads a person to follow an improper course, to stumble or fall morally, or to fall into sin. At Luke 17:2, the related verb skan·da·liʹzo, translated “stumble,” could also be rendered “become a snare to; cause to sin.”

Do not expect much. Everyone knows that even when they were Bible Students, their own Pastor never claimed to be inspired, yet former disgruntled ones always say JWs have claimed to be inspired, well their leaders. The irony is they say nothing of the ones they now follow, who did claim inspiration, a direct counterpart of JWs however these leaders re of mainstream Christendom.

These same people do not know their Bible as well as they think, mainly when it comes to omitted verses and the like, ignorant of Textual Criticism.

JOHN BUTLER · November 4, 2018

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

Yes it is John ...just as it was wrong of Arron to build the golden calf in the wilderness...some witnesses seem to live in fairy land and think we as a people are so different to the Israelites of the wilderness when in fact we are the same.

But don't let it escape your notice .... just as Moses did finally come down of that mountain and sort that wayward people out...so too will jesus come back and sort us lot out,,,

so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power ... what is escaping your notice is when those in the wilderness were directed to go forth and take the land ...only Joshua and Kaleb stood firm .. the rest had no faith in their God ... who were they ....they were the cheiftans of the tribes..men in authority ...they were not just any little Israelite man from the camp..they were probably men that were hand picked by Moses ...yet their error brought calamity down on their own people ....these things are relayed to us for an example ..to teach us ....can we really expect it to be so different today.

instead of causing division and doubt why not consider Joshua's and Kalebs insight and understanding... why not imitate their faith and encourage those in this confusing time that Jesus will return just as Moses did and sort this mess out and bring about justice and peace to the hurt sheep ...

You talk of the Nation of Israel. They were God's chosen people. Not by their choice as individuals though. So it cannot be compared to the JW Org. The JW Org is made up of individuals that have made a choice to be in that Org. The Org is supposed to be like a New nation. A safe place, a hiding place from the storm of the world. It should be 'looked after', watched over and guided by men of pure hearts. But it isn't. It's an organisation of dictatorship with the threat of death if a person disobeys. Spiritual death at first, then physical death at Armageddon, ( if you believe what he GB says ).

You said 'so you leave because of wrong doing of a few in power'. Let me remind you of Hitler. He was in power, but why ? Why did he have such power ? Because people feared him and so they did as they were told. They were his puppets. Hitler could not have done as much on his own. It was because he had so much of Germany under his control and they 'did just so', obeyed his every command without thought or feeling for others. It is the same in the JW org. The Elders are in fear of the GB. The GB are the hitler of the Org. So the Elders are the puppets of the GB, and in turn the congregants are in fear of the Elders, so the congregants are the puppets of the Elders. That is why the JW Org is not pure and clean. If you pollute a river from its source, that pollution will run down through the whole river, polluting all in its path. So it is with the JW Org, the pollution starts with the GB and it runs down through.

You are saying to me then, why not be part of this pollution ? Why not invite other people into this polluted Organisation ?

I think you will now understand why I left it all. Well you will understand if you want to, but if you want to continue to be blind then so be it.

Thinking · November 4, 2018

I’m not blind John..I have just become master over my resentment anger and hurt....otherwise I would be like you....persecuting my brothers and sisters...

Equivocation · November 4, 2018

Old and New, New and Old. The GB has never claimed to be inspired and those who say otherwise only proofs true to the very lies they drown themselves in. The hypocrisy and the misleading, but people who know what is true and what is false will say something.

JOHN BUTLER · November 4, 2018

42 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I’m not blind John..I have just become master over my resentment anger and hurt....otherwise I would be like you....persecuting my brothers and sisters...

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB.

JOHN BUTLER · November 4, 2018

50 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Old and New, New and Old. The GB has never claimed to be inspired and those who say otherwise only proofs true to the very lies they drown themselves in. The hypocrisy and the misleading, but people who know what is true and what is false will say something.

Ah no, but the GB expect to be believed and obeyed. Even if they do put sly cop outs in their writings.

GB : Um we might be wrong but we think this and that, but you must follow us and our Org or you will die at Armageddon.

The threat of spiritual death and physical death of not being in the 'Org' and not following the teachings of the GB. Is that really how God wants people to show love to one another.

Equivocation · November 4, 2018

11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Ah no, but the GB expect to be believed and obeyed. Even if they do put sly cop outs in their writings.

GB : Um we might be wrong but we think this and that, but you must follow us and our Org or you will die at Armageddon.

The threat of spiritual death and physical death of not being in the 'Org' and not following the teachings of the GB. Is that really how God wants people to show love to one another.

They give us the tools and encourage us to learn from the Bible. And from what is said in the publication comes from the Bible by means of teaching and principle.

We follow the teachings because the teachings is true by means of the Scriptures and not follow the scriptures puts you in opposition with God, the righteous ones the meek ones who take up the truth from the Bible will have salvation, we preach what is true to the nations so they can learn who the True God is.

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, it can be avoided by follow the Scriptures for death in the spirit means a total alienation from not only the teachings of the Bible, but of Jehovah God. And by showing love we do teach the Word and who God is so whomever we speak the truth to will understand who God is and what he will do for mankind. If you have faith in God you'd be well aware of what he will do, little faith to crumble in the spirit only shows one has little faith in God or is discouraged of the promise.

I believe God will make things right and people should know who God is, his Kingdom and his Son, Jesus Christ.

I stand by my word - the GB never claimed inspiration at all and like them we follow the true God and his Word.

Srecko Sostar · November 4, 2018

48 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Old and New, New and Old. The GB has never claimed to be inspired and those who say otherwise only proofs true to the very lies they drown themselves in. The hypocrisy and the misleading, but people who know what is true and what is false will say something.

My point is that we should have a little talk about the term "inspired".
First we should come up with an answer on what type of "inspiration" the GB speaks. As for the religious people who govern the believers, then we can safely assert that GB actually claims that they are not inspired by the divine spirit.

In what sense of inspiration? In the sense of what is often used for written Bible text and its source, these are verses like - 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Timothy 3:14-16. GB denied such divine inspiration for written and verbal text that coming from GB members mouth, or in extension, all what is produced as "spiritual food" by means, with help, through WT Company or JW Organization as god's chosen organized people who doing His will.

Now let us see something about word "inspire" (and all forms that come from this one).

few from dictionary:

to make someone

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that they
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to do something and can do it

to make someone have a

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or
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to give someone an

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for a
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,
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,
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, etc

to

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someone with
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and
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to do something

If something or someone inspires something

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, it
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or
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to it

As we can see to be inspired can came from various sources. And all sources are normal (if they are normal :))))). If you as JW member listen to Conventional program and hear some bro or sis how they are happy in missionary service, how they meet many interesting people, saw beautiful scenery of nature and many more and after you heard that you want to be missionary .... Who INSPIRED Who? Nothing is wrong to be INSPIRED.

If you read some book, watching TV, movie and something move you aka inspired you to say something, to do something ... it means you are INSPIRED. If God from heaven tell you to say, to do something, it means you are INSPIRED.

When GB of JW say how they are not INSPIRED what that means? Not inspired by spirit of God, not inspired by other people spirit , not inspired by own spirit??

How ever they claim, state, quote how they are not inspired, they are in fact want to say how GB is not RESPONSIBLE for nothing have been said and written. That is main reason for defending themselves with phrase "we are not inspired".

Inspiration is divine gift. And was given to all people. Or better to say some will found that and some will used that. :))) Not only for religious purposes!!!!!!!!!!!

JOHN BUTLER · November 4, 2018

1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

They give us the tools and encourage us to learn from the Bible. And from what is said in the publication comes from the Bible by means of teaching and principle.

We follow the teachings because the teachings is true by means of the Scriptures and not follow the scriptures puts you in opposition with God, the righteous ones the meek ones who take up the truth from the Bible will have salvation, we preach what is true to the nations so they can learn who the True God is.

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, it can be avoided by follow the Scriptures for death in the spirit means a total alienation from not only the teachings of the Bible, but of Jehovah God. And by showing love we do teach the Word and who God is so whomever we speak the truth to will understand who God is and what he will do for mankind. If you have faith in God you'd be well aware of what he will do, little faith to crumble in the spirit only shows one has little faith in God or is discouraged of the promise.

I believe God will make things right and people should know who God is, his Kingdom and his Son, Jesus Christ.

I stand by my word - the GB never claimed inspiration at all and like them we follow the true God and his Word.

You are missing the point. What you follow is the GB's interpretation of the scriptures. And the GB say they are not inspired of God's Holy Spirit. So what you follow is the GB that guess about things after they themselves read the scriptures. And as I've said, the GB even make note that they might not be right.

So for instance, you go on the ministry with a magazine or book to offer to people, but the information in those publications is only guess work by the GB. So it may not be true. You could in fact be offering lies.

If you teach direct from the Bible that is much better, but you have to have an accurate knowledge of God's word.

You follow your GB through your elders. You do Not follow God through Jesus christ.

Thinking · November 4, 2018

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So exposing people for Child Abuse now becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Exposing the GB for their heartless rules, their false information and misguidance becomes 'persecuting my own brothers and sisters' does it ?

Well Jesus was accused of much that wasn't true about him. So accuse me of what you will. God himself will sort out whichever Organisation HE wishes to use, be it the JW Org or not. But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first. Meanwhile you can carry on being a puppet if you wish, but not a puppet for God, only a puppet for the GB.

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 4, 2018

56 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becomingÂ self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Â

Space Merchant · November 5, 2018

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Â

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

13 hours ago, Thinking said:

Aaaah now you have become a personal judge of me....are you yourself now not becoming self righteous and pious in your words and manner...time to step down of your self made throne John.

Jehovah does not need you to point out or make known the errors of his people....do you honestly think he needs any human to do that....do you honestly think he did not foresee and know full well what would happen amongst his own people....why do you think he warned us in Peter that he would start judgement with his own household...

Do you think Jehovah cannot clean his own house....

A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

john did Jehovah clean out the Jewish System before he placed the messiah amongst them....your reasoning is flawed....

you are persecuting your brothers and sisters because you are not balanced in your views or thinking....you are making their scriptural command of teaching people the basic truths harder..and you are sowing seeds of doubt without any balanced knowledge as to why things are the way they are....it’s a extremely serious thing you are doing.

i know of elders who have someone’s blood on their hands because of the way they treated that person....but you also could find yourself in such a situation as well.....

i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors and not even acknowledging the wonderful basic truths Jehovah’s witnesses have been responsible for...

you have too much bitterness John...and it has made you unbalanced in your judgement and comprehension...and actually ..your bitterness is probably justified...but it is running you....controlling you....and thus you are it’s slave and not the free man you think you are.

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf.

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you.

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain.

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders and others that bring Jehovah's name into disrepute ? Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now. From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know. I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org. Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ? But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?

"you have too much bitterness John" Indeed. Have you been a victim of Child Abuse ? If not then you have no idea.

Space Merchant · November 5, 2018

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf.

One cannot clean out a problem that is spread out throughout the world like a plague. You can prevent small instances - yes, but as to he problem itself - no. There are also better ways of doing things, better solutions, but people do not want to take advantage of such, one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, for if we can teach a child about Strangers, we can do the same for Child Abuse, for this is recommended by Child Abuse and Neglect Services to teach young ones about this, to see the signs.

If the Bible has taught us anything, God does not focus on one man, he focuses on all men, sees their hearts, etc. It is not unknown to anyone that child abuse is within Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is silly to single them out when the problem is all over the place, even in restaurants as of recently.

That being said, problems like this will not cease one's faith at all, if that were the cases, a what if perhaps, kids would not be allowed to go to schools, churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. Restaurants would be off limits to ensure child safety therefore it would task a grown adult to go and buy the food and bring it back. And like I said before, even to all denominations regarding Unitarians, even us Biblical Unitarians, child abuse is an issue, it didn't stop me from professing truth and it allowed some of us to wise up and teach our children so they can teach others to see the signs.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.

How are you so sure if you yourself do not judge assume or met them, as you claim? This goes back to your comment of who has God's approval. For he is still a JW, you are not, granted he is one still perhaps he knows way more in regards to what he professes.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you.

As with all errors, they must be brought to attention.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain.

He didn't mention Jesus, he mentioned Peter, do not add to someone's word, even of God's, there is a verse for that.

Thinking stated the following: A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

Now, Thinking on made that response because of your response towards him, which is to a degree true because whenever it comes with someone who actually has something informative to say it does not sit well with you. The young one who spoke of forgiveness, you who claim you do not assume just assume an ordeal he had last year he was not a person who forgives, you also go on to say he equals ExJWs to gangsters when he was referring to gangsters in the Tri-State area, as per my example of something that was actually a true story.

Sometimes you have to see that all JWs are not the same ones you encountered in your original church.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders

And yet previously you say spoke of trick questions, so the question Evo asked proved the point. Those who commit pedophilia do not make up the masses, nor, as per Evo's question, does not make them pedophile lovers.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now.

In all institutions,it never began with JWs or solely engulfs them alone. As far as I am concern the grooming gangs do not make up all of you in the UK, just that small pocket of persons who has an intent to do bad to young British girls. The same way for me and others in the US who are of color or an ethnic background, the actions of a black man does not define all of us. In the JWs case, they are 8.5 million and growing, should one commit these acts, it does not define all the other 8.5 million among them.

You need to open your eyes because you cannot single out a sole group when the problem is all over and in all forms of society even the government i.e. Theresa May who had her hands tied before regarding children, but not of sex abuse.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know.

Yes they do know, but at the same time, there are people going about, even combating the problem in the best way, not going on a warpath to cease a faith from existence.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org.

There has been a few in the UK, some of these protesters also stem into the Robinson party, anti-Islam and a list of other things. A problem with some of these protests is they are also quick to spread conspiracy as well, and I did post some facts about this before, and I thank Jack Ryan who is supposedly an Atheist, for it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ?

God is aware that all types of wickedness is in the world, and clearly Christians know that God himself will be the one to make things right. The same issue you have regarding child abuse as with all people who dealt with it in a similar fashion and t pain it brings, this will be mended on God's Day.

If it is a test you speak of, we have to be vigilant and enduring always even in the face of problems.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?

The only reason people join them, and are still growing, is the of the teachings intertwined with their community. Yes some of them will have conflict and or some thing going on with others in their faith community - as with all of us, but it will not stop one from following their faith no matter how you try to knock it.

If you truly believe in God, you would not be oblivious of what he will do to wicked people. A time will indeed come, but as for us, we have to be smart about all things, even in regards of child abuse.

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

27 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

One cannot clean out a problem that is spread out throughout the world like a plague. You can prevent small instances - yes, but as to he problem itself - no. There are also better ways of doing things, better solutions, but people do not want to take advantage of such, one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, for if we can teach a child about Strangers, we can do the same for Child Abuse, for this is recommended by Child Abuse and Neglect Services to teach young ones about this, to see the signs.

If the Bible has taught us anything, God does not focus on one man, he focuses on all men, sees their hearts, etc. It is not unknown to anyone that child abuse is within Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is silly to single them out when the problem is all over the place, even in restaurants as of recently.

That being said, problems like this will not cease one's faith at all, if that were the cases, a what if perhaps, kids would not be allowed to go to schools, churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. Restaurants would be off limits to ensure child safety therefore it would task a grown adult to go and buy the food and bring it back. And like I said before, even to all denominations regarding Unitarians, even us Biblical Unitarians, child abuse is an issue, it didn't stop me from professing truth and it allowed some of us to wise up and teach our children so they can teach others to see the signs.

How are you so sure if you yourself do not judge assume or met them, as you claim? This goes back to your comment of who has God's approval. For he is still a JW, you are not, granted he is one still perhaps he knows way more in regards to what he professes.

As with all errors, they must be brought to attention.

He didn't mention Jesus, he mentioned Peter, do not add to someone's word, even of God's, there is a verse for that.

Thinking stated the following: A lot of us don’t follow the GB...we follow,the scriptures and test it out as the beroeans did....you assume we are all puppets...you give no respect to many brothers and sisters who have stronger faith than yourself.....John you have a big mouth.....I can say that because once I did to....Peter had a big mouth too....but he learnt humility...and eventually I learnt it to....and not from any GB...but from reading the scriptures and allowing them to discipline me and correct me....

Now, Thinking on made that response because of your response towards him, which is to a degree true because whenever it comes with someone who actually has something informative to say it does not sit well with you. The young one who spoke of forgiveness, you who claim you do not assume just assume an ordeal he had last year he was not a person who forgives, you also go on to say he equals ExJWs to gangsters when he was referring to gangsters in the Tri-State area, as per my example of something that was actually a true story.

Sometimes you have to see that all JWs are not the same ones you encountered in your original church.

And yet previously you say spoke of trick questions, so the question Evo asked proved the point. Those who commit pedophilia do not make up the masses, nor, as per Evo's question, does not make them pedophile lovers.

In all institutions,it never began with JWs or solely engulfs them alone. As far as I am concern the grooming gangs do not make up all of you in the UK, just that small pocket of persons who has an intent to do bad to young British girls. The same way for me and others in the US who are of color or an ethnic background, the actions of a black man does not define all of us. In the JWs case, they are 8.5 million and growing, should one commit these acts, it does not define all the other 8.5 million among them.

You need to open your eyes because you cannot single out a sole group when the problem is all over and in all forms of society even the government i.e. Theresa May who had her hands tied before regarding children, but not of sex abuse.

Yes they do know, but at the same time, there are people going about, even combating the problem in the best way, not going on a warpath to cease a faith from existence.

There has been a few in the UK, some of these protesters also stem into the Robinson party, anti-Islam and a list of other things. A problem with some of these protests is they are also quick to spread conspiracy as well, and I did post some facts about this before, and I thank Jack Ryan who is supposedly an Atheist, for it.

God is aware that all types of wickedness is in the world, and clearly Christians know that God himself will be the one to make things right. The same issue you have regarding child abuse as with all people who dealt with it in a similar fashion and t pain it brings, this will be mended on God's Day.

If it is a test you speak of, we have to be vigilant and enduring always even in the face of problems.

The only reason people join them, and are still growing, is the of the teachings intertwined with their community. Yes some of them will have conflict and or some thing going on with others in their faith community - as with all of us, but it will not stop one from following their faith no matter how you try to knock it.

If you truly believe in God, you would not be oblivious of what he will do to wicked people. A time will indeed come, but as for us, we have to be smart about all things, even in regards of child abuse.

I could answer you on many of the things you have written but in honesty i cannot be bothered. There is no point. We have totally different viewpoints, so be it.

The GB / JW Org have said many times (and it has been in print on here) that a person has to be a JW member to be saved through Armageddon. Now you are not a JW, so you must have your own reasons for not being a JW. And I would think you do not agree with the GB of the JW Org on the point of being saved only through them.

You must have reasons for not being a JW, yet you defend them so well. It is your choice.

You seem to think I want to destroy the JW religion, you are wrong. I want to see the JW Org cleansed, so that if it is God's chosen organisation then God can use it to the full. BUT if it is God's chosen religion then you should be careful, as you are not one of them. So maybe when Jesus comes to judge us he may find that you are not among his faithful followers.

Now you have said that the number of JW's is increasing, but that may not be in a true sense. As I've said before, they seem to be allowing much younger children to 'put in reports' of doing the ministry. The number of JW's earthwide is counted by the number of people doing the ministry. In the past it would only be the older members, not the very young children, putting in a monthly report. However it would seem possible that very young children are being allowed to put in reports, and so pushing up the numbers falsely. Jesus sent out men, not very young children, into the ministry. The JW Org seems to be doing all it can to make things 'look' good.

Space Merchant · November 5, 2018

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I could answer you on many of the things you have written but in honesty i cannot be bothered. There is no point. We have totally different viewpoints, so be it.Â

Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB / JW Org have said many times (and it has been in print on here) that a person has to be a JW member to be saved through Armageddon. Now you are not a JW, so you must have your own reasons for not being a JW. And I would think you do not agree with the GB of the JW Org on the point of being savedÂ only through them.Â Â

You sure? This has been discussed. You have to ask yourself, if JWs believe only them are to be saved, and them alone, who on God's earth would they be preaching the gospel to begin with?

Restorationist as a whole believe that only those who apply the true teachings of Bible can benefit from salvation, and as far as anyone's study in Christology, we know who speaks such and who does not.

Any man who has been against God and or other will be subjected to God's Judgement, those who strive to do things for God and apply the teachings of the church, the righteousÂ and the meek will have that chance to benefit from God's promise and what his accomplishment entails.

I made my reasons very clear to you but like you said, you laugh, and through yourself laughing you do not take into anything that is said to you. I study the Christology of others, and this is clear to you as it is because I corrected you not only about JWs, but of Islam and a list of other things. I study religion because I do not want to be like the mainstream ones who take up a word without study and profess a falsehood as a truth, therefore, all the silly ideologies and tactics I do not abide by and not even my own culture would allow me to do such.

That being said, not even the apostolic church believed only them will be said granted they spoke of their own, for that would defeat the purpose of why the Great Commission even exist.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You must have reasons for not being a JW, yet you defendÂ them so well. It is your choice.

What I dislike is when people speak of falsehood and conspiracy of others, the very reason I am on the defense, as with the defense of anything pertaining to the early church or the holy spirit among other things.

What I love about Biblical Hermeneutics is it allows you to study and understand interpretations and the study of religion to some degree, understanding Christology and a list of other things, but surely someone such as yourself would not care to give Theological studies a chance when you yourself confused a Strong for an English word.

My choice is to defend against anything

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to think I want to destroy the JW religion, you are wrong. I want to see the JW Org cleansed, so that if it is God's chosen organisation then God can use it to the full.Â BUT if it is God's chosen religion then you should be careful, as you are not one of them.Â So maybe when Jesus comes to judge us he may find that you are not amongÂ his faithful followers.Â

No, do not add on to my words although the influence of Mr. Gardner shows, clearly you are not Mr. Gardner, the one of whom you made known, the one of whom you gave link to support. The ones that are trying to cease a religion are of the other groups and their heads, the same ones that took action last year on this very day.

You have to wake up to reality Mr. Butler, regardless of whom, even the Jehovah's Witnesses, such things that came at the price of sin cannot cease 100%. No one can really do anything about it expect stop small instances of such in addition to educating our youth, the better solutions. Even in the ancient times among God's people there were those who were not in the right, this goes hand in hand with the students of the apostles themselves.

God's people and or religion are to be careful because as as the example I posed before, there is good people and there is bad people, just as there are true and false Christians in around the world, those who are doing things accordingly and those who are not.

And unlike you, I believe 100% that God will get rid of all problems that came from sin because I believe in Him and his Son and the promise of his kingdom, I believe that all things that give us pain, that hinders us, both you and me, will be gone for good, but to lack the lack in belief of God being the one to making things right - in you - shows.

I need not to be careful because put into application of what it means and what it takes to be like a Berean, to put into application discernment, the question is, are you?

Know this, for even those who claim they believe will not even succeed in the end if they do not do things accordingly, keep this in mind.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now you have said that the number of JW's is increasing, but that may not be in a true sense. As I've said before, they seem to be allowing much younger children to 'put in reports' of doing the ministry. The number of JW's earthwide is counted by the number of people doing the ministry. In the past it would only be the older members, not the very young children, putting in a monthly report. However it would seem possible that very young children are being allowed to put in reports, and so pushing up the numbers falsely. Jesus sent out men, not very young children, into the ministry. The JW Org seems to be doing all it can to make things 'look' good.Â

On the contrary to your unfortunate surprise, it is true. They were at 8.23-8.3 adherents and have gone up to 8.45Â as of late, 8.5 adherents. I made mention to this to JTR a while back, for the increase was within a span of months, as with in total the 20 million in conjunction with them.

They haven't pushed these numbers up falsely (No Christians, true or false, make lies about demographics, ever, ironically enough even the crazy mega churches) - do not make a claim to something of which you cannot prove to be true, granted that not only the JWs made this known, but other Christians who count adherents, therefore these numbers are legit.

Children are capable of preaching and professing - you are speaking to one who has been professing since the age of 6 once the biblical knowledge had been applied. As long as a child as the ability to read and take in knowledge, they can preach the gospel themselves and or minister, which was the case of with Jesus when he was younger when he spoke to the priests of the Temple who can spoke with him, and the very fact all Jews who can speak must obverse Shema Yisrael, and knowing the Old Testament, as Jesus had.

No one in Christendom or of Islam (Shia/Sunni) make up lies about their demographic, so do not make claims you cannot cash when some people actually pay attention to such things. You spoke of tricks before - clearly this trick has been seen when the evidence stacks up against you, Mr. Butler. You can seek out the Demographics here if you want:Â

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Srecko Sostar · November 5, 2018

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter,

Can somebody give evidence --- what is Bible teaching about issue of child molestation inside christian (JW) congregation? In other words --- HOW Bible educate children about pedophilia?

Space Merchant · November 5, 2018

24 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can somebody give evidence --- what is Bible teaching about issue of child molestation inside christian (JW) congregation? In other words --- HOW Bible educate children about pedophilia?

Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention services (

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) instruct even made PSA, where have you been Srecko, under a rock for all these years? And no, never made any mention of using Bible Principles, I simply spoke of better solutions to combat the issue that cannot be stopped at all.

Srecko if you had "read" the discussion you'd see that.

I leave you with one of the questions posed that was given to parents, guardians and or anyone to make note of from a PSA.

What is the most important sign that one has to look out for regarding a potential abuser [school setting - church setting - business setting - public space]? You are free to answer.

Srecko Sostar · November 5, 2018

16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

where have you been Srecko, under a rock for all these years?

yes, 40+ years in JWorg .... and it can be said -- it was under some sort of rock :)))))))

be careful, this is cryptic rocky message :)))))))))

Space Merchant · November 5, 2018

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

yes, 40+ years in JWorg .... and it can be said -- it was under some sort of rock :)))))))

be careful, this is cryptic rocky message :)))))))))

Well the thing is Srecko, I am not talking about JWs, I am talking to you, directly, about Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention services (

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)

So Srecko, this question is posed by those who go through the PSA, for after all you what to prove yourself, it should not be this hard to answer since you are also against child abuse.

What is the most important sign that one has to look out for regarding a potential abuser [school setting - church setting - business setting - public space]? You are free to answer.

And no, this isn't something cryptic, the question addressed is for those who are being trained and or learning the signs of abuse, consider this a basic educational question.

You hid under a rock when this organization of prevention was in existence, come on now, Srecko.

Srecko Sostar · November 5, 2018

3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Well the thing is Srecko, I am not talking about JWs, I am talking to you, directly,

but i am talking about JW, Bible and issue

perhaps bigger font and color will help :=)

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

@Space Merchant Quote : "Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world." How strange you should think that way .
.Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization."
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" They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation."
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I cannot be bothered to look for more but these two prove the point.

They preach the 'Good News of God's Kingdom' to bring more people into the JW Org, because they believe it is only when a person is in that Org that people can be saved.

Sorry SM I do realise it is a waste of my time trying to converse with you. Have a good day.

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

@Space Merchant This was a comment by @JW Insider written in that topic you highlighted.

"First of all the more generally correct answer is YES, not NO. The question was do Jehovah's Witnesses FEEL that they are the only people who will be saved? In my opinion, millions of them do feel exactly that way, whether or not this matches the official position. In cleaning out 50 years of my parents house for the last week I have read a lot of my deceased grandmother's correspondence with elders, pioneers, and good friends she had all over the world. I was struck by the way assemblies attended in many different nations were often summarized. These ranged from the 1950's up to about 2010. Included in so many of them were expressions like: "Isn't it great to be associated with the only people whom Jehovah will spare through this old system."

I think this helps to prove my point and it is from another person's opinion not just mine.

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

* w18 January p. 13 par. 5 Pleasant Unity and the Memorial ***

By ‘testing whether we are in the faith.’ To do that, we do well to ask ourselves: ‘Do I really believe that I am part of the only organization that Jehovah has approved to accomplish his will?

*** w79 3/1 p. 18 par. 21 Faith in Jehovah’s Victorious Organization ***

But, steadfastly, devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah’s organization. They know which one of all organizations on earth the Almighty God has used . . . . Is there any cause for us to lose faith in Jehovah’s visible organization . . ?

*** w54 11/1 p. 667 par. 19 Walking in Good Behavior ***

Do we have strong faith in Jehovah’s organization? Then loyally and actively support it. Your regular attendance . .

How much more do you need SM. They think it is only them, 'THE ONLY ORGANISATION'. And you and I are not one of them.

JOHN BUTLER · November 5, 2018

I wonder if any of you have ever watched 'Life of Brian'. I must say i didn't realise how bad the language was until i watched it with subtitles. And I will not watch it again. However my point here is that the anti-Romans would sit down and write about what they would do, and that seemed to be their way of getting things done (or not getting things done). All talk and writing, and no action.

Now that seems to be just like the GB of the JW Org. And what excuse, oh of course. Well the rest of the world is like it too.

Back to the, offering up children to Molech. Well the others were doing it too.

In the Kid's comment above i can see at least 3 times the 'world' is mentioned. And what are moral like today ? Come on ,we all know what the world is like (even though SM seems to think i don't know) so what ?

The JW org is not the world. It is supposed to be NO PART OF THE WORLD. It should not even be influenced by the world. So why oh why do they even compare themselves to the world ? The comparison should only be to what God's standards are, not what mans standards are.

One thing i find strange is how the Kid seems to say the Watchtower, not the JW org.

Thinking · November 5, 2018

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's not that Jehovah needs me or others to make complaint, BUT maybe Jehovah wants me and others to make complaint. Now that could be a sifting of those that want a clean Org to those that are prepared to remain in a disgusting Org. Jehovah often has heard the voices of His people and then acted on their behalf.

So in your opinion what does Jehovah think of the way the GB and Elders deal with the important problems within the JW Org ? Because in my opinion Jehovah is withholding His Holy Spirit from the GB and the Org at this time.

However i do like that bit where you say "i will end this conversation now because it would appear you are hell bent on exposing only the errors .... " At least you recognise that there are errors, thank you.

And you would say that Jesus 'had a big mouth' too then ? The way he spoke to the Pharisees many times. Truth hurts, so you can say i have a big mouth and I will understand your pain.

Is it me that is making the preaching work harder, or the Pedophile elders and others that bring Jehovah's name into disrepute ? Come on, open your eyes, it's earthwide news now. From that viewpoint it doesn't need me to add to it, people out there already know. I don't get involved in the protests but i know there are protests in many countries about the problems within the JW Org. Has Jehovah planned all this ? Is it serving a purpose ? Is it a testing ? But why would anyone want to be part of such an Org that has known about these things for between 20 and 50 years, and not done anything about it apart from keep records ?

"you have too much bitterness John" Indeed. Have you been a victim of Child Abuse ? If not then you have no idea.

You have no idea who you are speaking with John..I and my family have been victims of much worse than child abuse ....it is you who have no idea...and it’s is because I have had a spear thru my heart...that I feel I can speak as I do...

there are bad men in positions of authority....wolves In Sheeps clothing..heartless and cruel men who are drunk on their own power over a cong..

having said that ..most are not like that....but why are you expecting g such a clean org now....that is impossible..we won’t be clean and acceptable until after the thousand years...at the moment we are in critical times hard to deal with...he encourages us to keep putting up with each other..because he knew how hard and difficult such things would be..

i am terribly sorry if you had been a victim of abuse...many of us are victims of the most severe abuse...abuse is not always of the sexual kind.......some have not survived.....

there is much wrong amongst his people...but the point is....you didn’t dedicate yourself to an org.....you should have dedicated yourself the the Almighty Creator......

none of us have the answers...you don’t..nor I...only Jehovah will fix this..and thus faith must come Into to play..

now I must take my leave from you....as you are not good for me....you open my wounds and the festering starts all over again...you promote bitterness and restment....and they are my fall down...Ive had to work very hard at understanding why Jehovah allows such horrendous things amongst his people.....the answers are there John...but I know you are past wanting that.......even tho I know it is possible to heal....and see the big picture...Again I am sincely sorry and anguished at your pain from abuse...

Anna · November 6, 2018

On 11/4/2018 at 8:07 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

But if it is the JW org then it will need a lot of cleaning out first.

What interests me John, what things will need to be cleaned out? You must have specific things in mind.

Witness · November 6, 2018

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

there is much wrong amongst his people...but the point is....you didn’t dedicate yourself to an org.....you should have dedicated yourself the the Almighty Creator......

It just isn't that easy to do in the organization. According to your leaders, it is necessary to dedicate oneself to the organization. Otherwise, anyone could get baptized anywhere....like the Ethiopian who was baptized by Philip.

You bear the identifying “mark” of this “spirit-directed organization”. Where does this leave God , who demands exclusive devotion? Can you serve two Masters? Matt 6:24 ; Deut 6:4-8; Rev 13:1,4,7,11, 15-17

“Have you dedicated your life to Jehovah and symbolized your dedication by water baptism? If so, that is wonderful! Recall that on your baptism day, before eyewitnesses, you were asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.” Your affirmative answers served as a public declaration of your unreserved dedication and showed that you were qualified for baptism as an ordained minister of Jehovah. You must have made Jehovah very happy!” W17/4/ pp. 3-8

It is quite important that JWs keep in mind their promise to serve the organization. The phrase was already italicized; I marked it in bold.

The title of this WT is very telling – “What you Vow, Pay.“ The introductory scripture of the article is Matt 5:33

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’

However, the GB did not provide a way for you to investigate what Jesus said next.

³⁴But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; ³⁵or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. ³⁶And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. ³⁷All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Doesn’t it appear that the organization is going beyond what Jesus words have indicated? ANYTHING written as a command beyond his words, comes from the evil one.

Jesus’ command: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matt 28:19,20

Questions for baptism in the organization:

"The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

Wt 18/3 pp 3-7 and WT 1985,6/1 p. 30

The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism." WT 18/3 pp. 3-7

They have certainly gone beyond Jesus' words by making a point that you identify yourself with the organization. Where does it say in the scriptures that the "right heart condition" depends on a dedication to an earthly organization? Why don’t they mention one’s dedication to Jesus Christ? Why would one’s dedication to the organization be more important than serving God AND Christ. They are one in Spirit. Why didn't they follow Christ's command? John 17:22 "anything beyond this comes from the evil one".

"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations." Matt 12:18

The Watchtower leaders take more delight in “Jehovah’s organization” than in God’s Son. (they preach a different Jesus 2 Cor 11:4) They take more delight in their self-made commands, than those of Jesus Christ. Are you to tolerate this? As John brought out, Jesus didn't tolerate the lies of the Pharisees. In fact, Jesus said,

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Luke 13:34,35

God doesn't fix lies and sin. He warns us of the lies that may come against us by wolves in sheep's clothing, and to reject them, not tolerate them. Jer 5:31; Matt 7:20

I really hope you can see this.

“I JEHOVAH your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” Thus Jehovah God calls attention to the fact that he tolerates no rivals. Devotees of pagan religions may have a pantheon, but not those worshiping the unique God Jehovah.—

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, NW. WT 58/1/1 p.30

Indeed, God has a rival. It is the Watchtower organization.

Those who remain loyal to Jehovah’s organization take the view the apostles did when many of Jesus’ disciples stopped following him. Peter expressed their feelings by saying: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (

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) The loyal “sheep” see that the way to life is with Jehovah’s faithful organization. w62 12/15 pp. 758-763

Oh my. Since when did the way to life divert from Christ, and point to“Jehovah’s organization”? Since a mere hundred years ago or so. WT 62 12/15 pp. 758-763

You sound so troubled, somewhat of a misfit JW. Matt 11:28 There is more peace of mind on the other side of the wall of lies, than within such darkness. Ezek 13:10-16

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” John 6:68,69

Thinking · November 6, 2018

Lol...well I probably am a misfit...I smiled at that..but I think I will still follow Joshua’s and Kalebs example....they would have hated to see what Aaron was doing with the Golden calf...I’m sure they would have stood apart mentally and spiritually from that...but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people...

I remember a number of personal accounts of sisters and brothers being put into German concentration camps...they would often get taunted by their captors because those in leadership at that time...COs and Elders and even those in authority of the branch office betrayed them.....and those little sisters of no account and probably viewed as insignificant in the cong ...said.....”they may do as they wish..but for me...I will remain loyal to my God”

So this little old misfit will do the same....:).....along with many many others who will stand firm and loyal to their God and Christ....You have underestimated so many of us...

.

Srecko Sostar · November 6, 2018

12 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Psalm 72:4

I found only this verse mentioned "Children" , and how "King" is asked, called to protect them.

But i was hoping that you would give some Bible verses where children are instructed how to deal with molesters (of any kind).

Space Merchant · November 6, 2018

14 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Space Merchant Quote : "Indeed we do, but one of us is able to see what is going on with today's society while the other does not allow himself to see what is going on in the world." How strange you should think that way .

.Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization."
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" They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation."
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I cannot be bothered to look for more but these two prove the point.

They preach the 'Good News of God's Kingdom' to bring more people into the JW Org, because they believe it is only when a person is in that Org that people can be saved.

Sorry SM I do realise it is a waste of my time trying to converse with you. Have a good day.

Already several steps ahead of you, some bits of it came not just from the article but information from a non-disgruntled one also, in addition to how Restorationist Christians operate.

Enjoy

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 6, 2018

59 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Already several steps ahead of you, some bits of it came not just from the article but information from a non-disgruntled one

Just in case anyone might misunderstand, I would like to make it clear that I am neither disgruntled, or non-disgruntled, but am merely moderately well gruntled.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

9 hours ago, Anna said:

What interests me John, what things will need to be cleaned out? You must have specific things in mind.

Anna you are not blind to all the problems in the Org are you ?

The way Child Abuse is dealt with, needs sorting out. NOT just on paper, anyone can write a list of what procedure should be, and then secretly do it a different way. You yourself have given me instances of this......

The GB stating that they themselves (only those 8 men) are the faithful and discreet slave. When Jesus said to his apostles that one should not put himself above another. Yet the GB do put themselves above the others of the Anointed.

The false teachings, which they pretend are mistakes. The changing of meaning of scriptures, by the GB, to suit their own needs or wants. Surely everyone knows about Page 9 in the Revelation book, where the GB / writers say " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Huh ? On the one hand they say they are the Faithful slave of God, giving the right food at the right time. Then on the other hand they say 'But we could be wrong' Why would they be wrong if they claim that the information comes from God ? Of course they have been proved wrong, so I think it proves my point, they are not receiving the info' from God.

So, the GB need to be cleaned out, removed by God or Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, the wicked slave would be thrown out in the streets.

Information from God's Kingdom Rules book :-

The Bible students in 1883 knew Christmas was wrong but they continued to celebrate Christmas until 1926, so deliberate sin was committed against God.

In 1895 Bro Russell commented that smoking was wrong, using scripture to back up what he said. But smoking was allowed to continue within the JW Org until 1973. Over 75 years of deliberate sin by those 'in charge' of the Bible Students/JW Org.

And they seem to boast about it in that book as if making the changes was so good. Yes good, but much too late, as it should have been done as soon as they realised.

Can you not see the pattern ? The GB / Org 'bosses' know about things much sooner than they let the congregants know. Not giving the right food at the proper time... Could it be that they were /are frightened of losing so many people from the Org if they do things properly.

Carry that through to the Child Abuse / Pedophilea problem and once again it can clearly be seen that the GB and HQ's in every country knew about the serious problem of Child Abuse in many many congregations, but deliberately held back on taking positive action. Most active JW's never knew for years about it, and many still don't know. Once again deliberate sinning was / is taking place.

Shunning. This one is a mixed bag of course. But if it leads to people being left completely alone and depressed then i would think it was not God's or Jesus Christ's intentions. It should be made clear when a person is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', whether they were disfellowshipped or 'resigned', and whether the person sinned against God or not. No personal details need to be given but the congregation should know if they are allowed to talk to the person or not. Many congregants unfortunately will not think for themselves, they need guidance or 'approval' from the elders.

Quite funny that the Org prints this magazine 'Return to Jehovah', but no one is supposed to even talk to ex JW's.

When the bible reminds us 'not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together' I don't think it mean in such a 'military way'.

Space Merchant · November 6, 2018

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

but i am talking about JW, Bible and issue

but i am talking about JW, Bible and issue

perhaps bigger font and color will help :=)

If that was the case then why in God's name would you quote what I said earlier? Hypocritical, don't you think?

On 11/5/2018 at 10:33 AM, Space Merchant said:

One cannot clean out a problem that is spread out throughout the world like a plague. You can prevent small instances - yes, but as to he problem itself - no. There are also better ways of doing things, better solutions, but people do not want to take advantage of such, one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, for if we can teach a child about Strangers, we can do the same for Child Abuse, for this is recommended by Child Abuse and Neglect Services to teach young ones about this, to see the signs.

You pulled one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter, when I am speaking about the solutions provided by Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention services themselves.

So Srecko, where is it in my own response [above] I am equating Bible Principles? Show me.

Another thing I stated the following, directly to you: Well the thing is Srecko, I am not talking about JWs, I am talking to you, directly,

I said this because if you are unaware of such services actually exist, you show yourself not to be someone who is doing things the better way of putting into application, teaching our young ones about the problem so they themselves can teach others to lessen cases of abuse, be it sexual or violence and or other. Therefore, when I said you've been under a rock, it shows you do not take into account of the problem at all and solely dig your head into a single faith group. And I am glad Mr. Butler agrees with you because I told him the same thing months ago to which he agrees just for some reason this time it is different, and now it shows his view has changed. I am probably sure he agrees with your other views that is against anything Scriptural as well if it was obvious against what is true to what the Word says.

For a guy who wants to have a say in child abuse, you tend to ignore anything pertaining to child abuse prevention in terms of educating the youth, as you have done before and as you have done now, Srecko.

Now Srecko, you ask for Bible Principles, you shall have it. As with ANY Christian the safety of our children is of very high concern, to wherever our children are and whom they are in contact with and or communication with, be it young persons or grown people.

The Bible speaks of all forms of Brazen Conduct which correlates with sexual immorality/fornication otherwise known as or in the same category as pornography. For, the Bible itself condemns such loose and unclean conduct as Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 4:19 states. Granted Mr. Butler assumes I "pretend" which cannot proven by his own word, twice, perhaps a third, I will show you as to how these verses point this out regarding the principles you seek and yet you yourself do not apply, after all you want to focus on the Bible as you claim

Galatians 5:19-21 - [19] Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [20] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [21] envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:19 - They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

Granted that the primary responsibility for protecting a child and or children against abuse belongs to parents and or guardians, it is an obligation for us as both a guardian and or parent to educate ourselves on this matter first before educating such things to a child or children.

Those who have or care for children need to understand that, there are things we can do regarding child abuse and things we cannot do, although we cannot stop it 100% as Mr. Butler claims in regarding a cleansing of a faith community which is neigh impossible. If we are to be honest, truly honest with ourselves, a simple, reasonable man would be wise enough to understand that if we can't even stop wars, famine, sickness and death 100% by our OWN hands, how can one think, even assumes that man who cannot govern or keep themselves in check can somehow cease anything in the category of abuse, which is also including of child abuse? Last I check the bible makes it clear only God's Kingdom can clear all that, cleanse the badness of this world as with men who governs their own into Hades - by their hands (Daniel 2:44-45).

The truth of the matter is, due to the price of our imperfections, such a thing exist and will only be done away with by God himself, not you, not me, not Butler, not even the Jehovah's Witnesses, not anyone, expect God and what his Purpose and Will (And his Order [whereas biblical fact was proven true in contrast to the errors professed by both you and Witness], of which you were in denial of before) entails in regards to the removal of ALL forms of wickedness, in conjunction with ALL things that brings us pain and sadness, one of the many things, that being Child Abuse. I believe in God strongly and what He will do, but if you yourself and perhaps Mr.Butler do not believe then there is a problem. Both of you read the Bible as you made it clear, this should come as obvious for you and as can be seen one cannot simply cleanse something totally because if it takes place in the world and trhives of of imperfection and sin and death, it will come back again and again and again like a recurring super villain from a Saturday morning cartoon that just doesn't seem to quit i.e. you can remove a pedophile abusing teacher from a school, but eventually there will be another and another, in the US, most of them being commonly Caucasian women, and the cycle repeats itself over and over again. You have to be living in a dreamworld if something can be eradicated totally from an institution and or anywhere in the world.

The Bible even tells us that

Proverbs 25:28 - A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

But it does not hinder our ability to do something - better solutions in terms of minimizing instance of abuse and having our young ones being aware of the signs of abuse and those who have been abused to increases positive outcomes in not just helping survivors, but preventing another victim, moreover, as some claim, another statistic - of which no one wants to be in any regard in such things.

We have to treat potential and or suspected abusers who molest children in the same category as strangers, or those who commit sexual assault and or harassment, for these individuals come in many forms, a teacher, a neighbor, a priest, a steward, a club organizer, a business associate,a politician, and the list goes on and they are in all institutions, even among Jehovah's Witnesses and the like all institutions those who seek to commit harm to a person and or child, according to Child Abuse and Neglect Services, they seek friendship with the child and or if the child is of the household, they focus on said child, in turn a victim and or victims, other times it can be a person from in or out of town who is seeking to kidnap and rape a child, as well as possibly force them into child prostitution rings for slavery and abuse, which was the case with a real life historical example known as The Boys Town, which started out as a peaceful organization until the passing of the founder, and later on how child abusers infiltrated the organization (which is no different from Luciferians infiltration into Christendom), granted everyone knows it was beyond their power to stop this spreading of abusers and such information came to light of how it began. Another big help, an effective solution, is we have to talk to our children about what is sex, for this is another solution and a good one because for most child abusers who prey on children often find themselves victims who have no idea what sex is, thus handing them over to the abuser, you make it an easy win for them and a loss for the victim, therefore, another thing to be taught to our children increases the chance of awareness, for we have had many, many examples in our day whereas some children are able, willing and capable of evading the advances of an abuser, even some capable of seeking multiple adults who can help them (as the motto goes if one adult is of little to no help, seek ANOTHER) be it someone they know or a stranger, or some lone wolf who is seeking to kidnap a child to perform such acts, moreover, such ones who are educated in this sense can even evade and avoid other children and or teenagers who they themselves CAN be the child abuser in this case, hence the child on child abuse crimes, which can also be prevented. Therefore the Bible is correct when it comes to wisdom, in this sense, as The Bible says in Proverbs 2:10-12, it reads:

[10] for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; [11] discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you, [12] delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech,

Which brings forth question to which both you and Mr. Butler can answer - are you for or against teaching, educating children in this sense if the concern for Child Abuse is of high concern, not just among the Jehovah's Witnesses, but all children everywhere in and or out of all institutions? If anyone who adheres to Child Sex Abuse and Neglect Services, just as one adheres to the command of the Christ, the answer should be an obvious one. As I had told the both of you, someone who had spoken to young children, teens alike, even adults who are unaware of such education, there are better solutions at combating the problem, and you are looking at one. My advise to the both of you, actually pay attention to what those who make the PSA and other material in terms of training is actually saying. If the majority can, so can you, for if you can follow what the Bible says, when it comes to being morally upright and the like, you can apply in what it says about teaching wisdom, and in this case, teaching wisdom to our children.

That being said, the subject of sex is awkward to discuss with children, just as it is when the child reaches a grade in elementary whereas family living is taught regarding the subject and they come to you with concerns and questions on the other side of the spectrum, a child may find the subject even more awkward, and he is not likely to bring it up with you, perhaps later on. Now to be honest to myself, I can tell you both my mother and father taught found it was the right time to talk to be about the matter before I was 12, which is the case with a majority of children in the US, for some, even younger, others, who find themselves dealing with pornography be it knowing about what sex is or not, are often educated far later on when they want to come clean about their problem and or found out to be viewing of such material. And when this is discussed with out children, we ourselves cannot be shy about what words we use and how we say it, we have to be upfront and honest about every word and every answer to a question that is posed, for we should not be ashamed of anything said.

Now, These people are similar to false teachers of which the Bible deems a wolf in sheep's clothing as read in Matthew 7:15, 24:11 2 Peter 2:1, and 1 John 4:1 for such ones who are practically sociopolitical (a sociopath), they can and will do whatever it their ill goal entices them to do so when it comes to seeking younger ones who cannot defend themselves and or unaware of what will happen. Moreover, pedophilia in of itself is a disorder and those who have it can and will act out by means of said disorder and seek opportunity, on the other side of the spectrum, there are those, even in politics that seek to make this a sexual orientation, hence why if you do not seek better solutions, people like this will win and be far worse for all institutions. In many, many, if not, the majority of cases of sexual abuse of children, the abuser, who is the perpetrator is someone the child already knows and trusts - 100% fact and true and this information is the same as what these services makes us, and everyone else aware of.

That being said, I encourage you both to actually open your eyes for once because as can be seen you keep them shut, and unlike the both of you, I am far more serious about the issue and I have the mental capacity to understand and see this "earthwide" problem as Mr.Butler profess is indeed a great one, but to focus solely on a group when the problem is everywhere also is sheer ignorance, just as ignorant as the one-sided claims in the US in this regard, especially when it comes to child abuse and race, which can be on the line of true an not true.

That being said, if a Father, any Father in this case, can teach his son to paint, to build something, to fight, to drive and or other, it does not shy away from a Father teaching his son about child abuse, about the signs of an abuser and the sign of someone who is being or has been abused, he teaches him about sex and any body member associated in this regard, he teaches his son, his child about strangers so nothing can befall of his own son - vice versa for daughters and the mothers who teach their children. In this day and age, a child can be swayed by an abuser from a game such as Minecraft (it extends to even social media, something of which I will post very very soon putting forth the facts), but any educated parent, especially one who has played games themselves, teach their children about being safe online, as is in the schools and the churches. Therefore, we should spare time to TEACH our children so they can equip themselves with wisdom in this regard, even Biblically , since you want an answer, so they can be aware of any brazen conduct that can potentially make them a would be victim and or a statistic of the worse kind.

The next problem you face is that the very people you tend to seek for help regarding child abuse are the same ones who tend to free abusers on the whim, to Butler, the grooming Gangs in the UK s with human sex trafficking coupled with the Black Market, to anyone in the US, the fallen politicians, who got out scott-free when he should be serving his sentence.

For if you Butler cannot recognize how pedophiles, some of them far worse than others, how they take up authority in any institution of their living, as of now even Restaurants, then clearly you both have a lot to learn, as I told Mr. Butler time an time again, and I will say it, so my words stick this time, there are better solutions in regards to the matter of child abuse, clearly if you are not getting thing your way, you are going about things the wrong way and make the incorrect chose of focusing on a single group and or party when you are surrounded by others who have the same issue. Yes, JW children are of high concern granted that anyone can be Evangelized and or convert to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for as the saying goes for all in Christendom, we do not know who comes to the church or their intent be it good or bad, however, ALL children should be of a concern and we should not have to single out a faith, or someone of a race in order to go about the issue, in doing so, as my source pointed out, Solider of God, we only create a bigger problem when we give power to those who commit the acts, for it is reasoning like this that allow people like Nathan Larson to have people on his side, it is reasoning like this that support such behavior and thinking it is okay, it is reasoning like this why those for pornography are allowed to have a portrayal of children and cratering to their demographic, it is reasoning like this not educating our children as well as older folk that will lead to issues like this, having the mentally of not having to worry about something that is happening to others and a list of other things.

I suggest you take read of this, the both of you:

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Because it would seem the one cannot open his eyes properly and the other who perhaps had an even bigger rock on top of him that is perhaps bigger than the ones used for tombs in ancient times.

You have to focus on the problem, not masses of persons who have no connection to the problem, the same ones who can be effected too. And like you I said earlier

one of these solutions is to educate our children on this matter

I made this one bigger for you so that YOU can understand what I have been saying here for months now.

And as far as Evo's consider, the one who stopped the protest (ironically joined by a gay man and artist who did speak up), the one who is friends with John Cedars stated the exact same thing only to be attacked by the very people you support clearly and obviously, Srecko. You cannot play on two tables, Srecko, you can only play on one and quite frankly you do even know which table you should be sitting at, but this is not of your concern because you have proven yourself to believe in the undeath teaching, which is not a Christian practice. And clearly if you believe God is okay with the sexual changes done by a man and or woman to their own body, be it due to what they see themselves mentally and physical, how are you in a position to even teach when you believe this? I suggest you ponder on that very notion you profess, I will not do you the favor or linking your own words in an attempt to remove it as you had done last time regarding another discussion that has, gone awry, on your part.

Then again any Biblical Fact and or actual source of something goes in one of your ears and out the other and attempting to keep hidden my full response by taking a snippet to tag anything JW related to it was a fail on your part, perhaps this time you read, observe and understand what I convey or go back to the rock that is your dwelling place.

The truth has been spoken, do with it as you will to your own liking and take into account these solutions provided by those who deal with Child Abuse and the examples they give, as is with Bible Principles of which you, and I will say, that you asked for.

The question you see but try to ignore still stands

What is the most important sign that one has to look out for regarding a potential abuser [school setting - church setting - business setting - public space]?

The answer itself can be found in the response, Srecko - should you prove yourself to actually have a concern rather than be part of the problem.

That being said you take these solutions and go about the problems that right and positive way, but the other stuff, this warpath-sque based mind attitude isn't the way to do it, and even the non-religious can see that too.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

@Witness I take my hat off to you. you have worded it much better that I.

Spirit directed Org eh ? So why do they get so much wrong.

Thinking · November 6, 2018

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Witness I take my hat off to you. you have worded it much better that I.

Spirit directed Org eh ? So why do they get so much wrong.

Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah

Space Merchant · November 6, 2018

29 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah

This is because people do not take into account the actions of those in the Bible, mainly those mentioned in the Old Testament, especially Moses, of whom there is a passage that prompts people to deny him and say they do not follow Moses, for they say this because they do not taken into context his actions, which was similar to that of King Saul.

For those who claim to read the Bible ignore these facts that is as clear as day, placed before them like the sun in the sky, for it is that obvious.

That being said, no Restorationist Christian in history, or ANY non-trinitarian, claim to be inspired, those who nullify by being spirit direct and or the holy spirit into the mix clearly have no idea of what the notion actually is - inspired and or not inspired prophets and or teachers.

Space Merchant · November 6, 2018

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Just in case anyone might misunderstand, I would like to make it clear that I am neither disgruntled, or non-disgruntled, but am merely moderately well gruntled.

You are not. I can tell the difference between warm colors and cool colors and the variety of both that same from that category. You are not a disgruntled one, but those like FS, Gardner and those who subject themselves and clearly show merit to their ideologies, are disgruntled ones. They are lucky I do not speak agree with those both Passaic and Warwick County folk that consider the actions of the disgruntled as borderline extremism by means of their disruptive protest.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

15 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would consider using JW org as an internet-controlled IP address, to direct those interested. The day the Watchtower changes the Watchtower magazine to JW org, then I will be no more than happy to call it the JW org. Meanwhile, I will continue to view JW org as intended, a pseudonym. Usually, opposer and former witnesses use the JW org as a derogatory gesture.

This reminds me, someone wrote some time ago. It probably got deleted since I can’t find it posted anymore. It went something like this. When did the Watchtower claim to be perfect, those that have become activist against the Watchtower see members within the organization as perfect, or something like that. Where is it written in scripture, those that are not part of this world, become perfect human beings, impervious to sin?

If anyone can offer this new light, it would be most welcoming.

When I say JW Org, i do not mean JW.org, I mean the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation. I would think most people understand that. And it does enough harm to itself, it doesn't need outside help to do that.

However the official title i believe is The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is a separate organisation to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Each of them having their own legal departments, though i presume both being controlled by the Governing Body.

As for being perfect, none of us are, and i for one don't expect anyone to be. What i do expect is for the JW Org and Watchtower Soc' to examine themselves in comparison to God's standards, not to the standards of the world. It is so easy to say that The JW Org and W/t are behaving better than the world... I think i behave much better than many in the world. But i know I do not live up to God's standards. However the JW Org / W/t is supposed to live as if they are in the New World. I can't quite remember the scripture but it's something about : Come you people let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah. And about, learning a new or pure language.

So when will this happen ? And who will those people be that do this ? Will it only be Jehovah's witnesses ?

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah.

So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now.

Space Merchant · November 6, 2018

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However the JW Org / W/t is supposed to live as if they are in the New World. I can't quite remember the scripture but it's something about : Come you people let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah. And about, learning a new or pure language.

Isaiah chapter 2

[The Mountain of the Lord/YHWH (1-5)]
[The Day of the Lord/YHWH (6-22)]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So when will this happen ?

What do you think?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Will it only be Jehovah's witnesses ?

Anyone who does not alienate himself or others from God, his teachings, and the like will be saved but it is up to these same people to maintain their faith to hold on to salvation, granted the slave of the Christ stated maintaining faith is a hard fight according to him. The Apostolic Christians had everything down to the letter, or in this case, the Didache. The Church and her people, the church and her teachings that is being professed, of which one must follow.

The church, believes in One God, The Father, the Almighty. The Church believes in One Son, who is Lord, Christ Jesus, The Son of God. The Church believes in power that be of The Holy Spirit, proclaimed through the prophets the administrations of God. The Church takes into account that Christ Jesus, our Lord, and our God who is also our Saviour, and King, according to the Will of the invisible Father.

Think of it as this way, all of Christendom are tribes, from each tribe there are those of whom God knows who is from him and those who are not, Jesus knows who is striving to follow the Church and who is not, granted that we are imperfect, some of us may fall to sin. which some will repent and some will embrace and succumb to spiritual death by their hand.

All this explained in that other topic I linked to you - twice.

You even agreed with this previously.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah.

So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now.

There is more to David's Story than just adultery. He was able to kill a lazy man only for the wife of that man reasoned with him, in context we can see why David was angry, the other situation he got the husband of the very woman of whom he committed adultery with killed in the front-lines, and it costed him a son. But despite this David was repentant and there is more to the what is mentioned. Also as another would be that David did everything in his power to defend and protect a chosen one of God, the same chosen one who sought to kill David, furthermore, this same man had a proper burial despite all this - for, he is an anointed King, another man withheld information from him during bad times to protect himself and David, fr the other man was a prophet.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

34 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I am beguiled by the misunderstanding of the objective with the phrase JW org. When I think of it, it reminds me to direct interested people to this website. The official corporate name of the Watchtower for legal purposes doesn’t minimize the application for the use of the phrase Watchtower. A name that has been in use for over a century. The use of JW org to reflect Jehovah’s Witnesses Organization would imply unity.

The way members refer to themselves here are not in unison with what the teachings are for the Watchtower. The phrase JW org then is reflective on how it meant by opposers. In a derogatory way. This appeal does find a home with former witnesses and those that support their endeavors. Therefore, I will continue to use the term Watchtower since I don’t find common ground to suggest otherwise.

It is good there is a realization the organization does not have perfect members. It should have been obvious to you by the support you have been given here. 1 John 4:1

When we find ourselves making explicit demands, and call them expectation, we would have to test the heart of the wicked. Proverbs 10:28 Does an activism have God’s support. 1 Peter 2:21-25

Only God can read the heart of a disgruntled former member. Psalm 32:1, Psalm 37:16, John 14:1

Well a lot of JW's say they are 'in the truth' but as i don't see all of it as truth then i don't use that phrase.

So it seems that you see it as ok for the GB and some Elders to deliberately do wrong, because they are not perfect.

And as for making demands, I think God himself makes demands "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Matthew 5 v 48.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

^{@Space Merchant2} In the final part of the days,The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. ³ And many peoples will go and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.”For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.

Thank you S.M... Isaiah 2 v 2&3.

^{Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.} “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people. " Zechariah 8 v23.

The Watchtower Study Edition April 12. Life story by Leonard Smith :-

THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then.

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Note he does not say the Jewish man symbolizes the Governing Body. He says the Jewish man symbolizes the Anointed Christians. A big difference.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 6, 2018

At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

Perhaps when recruitment of new and more donors becomes more important than Justice and Mercy, and personal integrity

Resistance may be futile ... but not EVERY person of integrity and honest heart wants to be fully assimilated, and become a BORG

James Thomas Rook Jr. · November 6, 2018

Can you imagine those two BORG Pioneers getting completely suited up in those outfits, and one turns to another and says "I gotta pee !"

Srecko Sostar · November 6, 2018

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

only God's Kingdom can clear all that

Ok, that is nice hope. What is the reason that God's Kingdom watching all these misery, pain and tears of children who suffer? And do nothing? (waiting to see would your possible respond will be the same as WT publication explanation :::)))))

Next. You said GK is ONLY who can clear all that. So, in other words it is the same as you or someone else say how all efforts that people doing is in vain, useless at the end of day.

By that logic, God will not blessed or guide or inspired nothing and nobody in their efforts that this monstrous and evil problem be "solved" or at least minimized. Because, all blessing is on future Kingdom and not on this, today human now living on Earth.

Out of this subject. But you are talking so much of JW as "Restorationist" christian group. Web provide me this:

"Restorationist" denominations include:

The Christadelphians,

The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),

Churches of Christ,

The Community of Christ,

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS),

Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ,

International Churches of Christ,

Jehovah's Witnesses,

Seventh-day Adventists,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons)

etc.

I am not sure that JWorg would be happy to be in same "pot" with this other denominations. Because, according to WT only JW teaching "the truth", and no one else on this list :))

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

21 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I am at ah. A human making himself equal to God. Mark 3:28-30 Not even Jesus did this. How quaint.

Somehow it's not surprising.

"When we find ourselves making explicit demands," That's Your words Kid..... So what are you burbling about ? Have you been drinking or are you on tablets that upset your mind ? Get well soon Kid.

Thinking · November 6, 2018

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

David deliberately committed adultery and murder, and was punished by Jehovah.

So in that case the GB should be punished by Jesus Christ, as the power and authority are in his hands now.

If they need punishing or discipline ...off course..just as you and I....in fact they will carry a heavier punishment as they are teachers....but that is in his jurisdiction to decide..not yours or mine...keep in mind....

Aaron built the golden calf and did not even take responsibility for what he did but conviemtly blamed the people....what he did was massively wrong ...yet when Moses came down from the mountain ...he still offered a chance for all this committing spiritual idolatry another chance by telling all those who stood for Jehovah to stand by his side.

Arrons life was spared because he did...but more out of consideration for his brother Moses...nevertheless Moses/Jesus offered all those worshipping the Golden calf another chance at repentance...obviously a lot never took that.

The point being...the second man in charge did commit idolatry...yet was spared..it’s food for thought..

Kosonen · November 6, 2018

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

^{@Space Merchant}

^{Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.} “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people. " Zechariah 8 v23.

Note he does not say the Jewish man symbolizes the Governing Body. He says the Jewish man symbolizes the Anointed Christians. A big difference.

Matthew 24:40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Now the GB has blatantly distorted Jesus' words about what it means to help Jesus' brothers, the anointed. GB outright discourages brothers and sisters to give special attention to the anointed, except for themselves. That can not be right.

JOHN BUTLER · November 6, 2018

3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

If they need punishing or discipline ...off course..just as you and I....in fact they will carry a heavier punishment as they are teachers....but that is in his jurisdiction to decide..not yours or mine...keep in mind....

Aaron built the golden calf and did not even take responsibility for what he did but conviemtly blamed the people....what he did was massively wrong ...yet when Moses came down from the mountain ...he still offered a chance for all this committing spiritual idolatry another chance by telling all those who stood for Jehovah to stand by his side.

Arrons life was spared because he did...but more out of consideration for his brother Moses...nevertheless Moses/Jesus offered all those worshipping the Golden calf another chance at repentance...obviously a lot never took that.

The point being...the second man in charge did commit idolatry...yet was spared..it’s food for thought..

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance. Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street.

Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men. Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave.

The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God. Is that sinning against the spirit ? I really don't know.

As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not. We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly. Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think.

Kosonen · November 6, 2018

The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty.

Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.

Thinking · November 6, 2018

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I would have thought that if the GB are of the anointed class then they should have a much closer and different relationship with God. They would be sons of God with a view to the inheritance. Therefore if they deliberately disobey God, or Jesus Christ who now has that authority, then they would be classed as the Wicked slave, that Jesus said would be thrown out in the street.

Remember that the GB call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', they have given themselves that title.... Luke 14 v 11 clearly warns against anyone exalting themselves. But the GB have put the others of the anointed in a lower position than themselves, only exalting the GB consisting of 8 men. Please remember that at one time the Organisation counted ALL of the Anointed as the Faithful slave.

The JW Organisation is supposed to be superior to the Nation of Israel in as much as people join JW Org voluntarily, whereas in the Nation of Israel, people were born into it and had no choice. So each individual in the JW Org should prove that they have the right heart condition. However the GB are proving themselves to be in opposition to God, or at least sinning against God. Is that sinning against the spirit ? I really don't know.

As for me judging them, I think we all have to make a decision about the GB and about the JW Org, otherwise how would we know whether it is right to serve God through Christ and through the JW Org or not. We could just as well serve through the Pope if we followed blindly. Yes a bit extreme but it makes the point i think.

The GB have stated in true February 2016/2017 ..not sure of the dates ...that the FDS has not been appointed as of yet....and are yet to be judged...

They then went on in the last half of that article to state why they feel it is them and why they feel Jesús will find in favour of them.....rather presumptuous of them I thought ....

Again..David was annoited and deliberately disobeyd Jehovah ...for his own selfish gain....just because you are annoited...or have been invited does not mean you are perfect...and besides many are invited and few chosen....

what would you have done if you knew about David’s sin....how would you have sorted that out????

Anna · November 6, 2018

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Anna you are not blind to all the problems in the Org are you ?

The way Child Abuse is dealt with, needs sorting out. NOT just on paper, anyone can write a list of what procedure should be, and then secretly do it a different way. You yourself have given me instances of this......

The GB stating that they themselves (only those 8 men) are the faithful and discreet slave. When Jesus said to his apostles that one should not put himself above another. Yet the GB do put themselves above the others of the Anointed.

The false teachings, which they pretend are mistakes. The changing of meaning of scriptures, by the GB, to suit their own needs or wants. Surely everyone knows about Page 9 in the Revelation book, where the GB / writers say " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible." Huh ? On the one hand they say they are the Faithful slave of God, giving the right food at the right time. Then on the other hand they say 'But we could be wrong' Why would they be wrong if they claim that the information comes from God ? Of course they have been proved wrong, so I think it proves my point, they are not receiving the info' from God.

So, the GB need to be cleaned out, removed by God or Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, the wicked slave would be thrown out in the streets.

Information from God's Kingdom Rules book :-

The Bible students in 1883 knew Christmas was wrong but they continued to celebrate Christmas until 1926, so deliberate sin was committed against God.

In 1895 Bro Russell commented that smoking was wrong, using scripture to back up what he said. But smoking was allowed to continue within the JW Org until 1973. Over 75 years of deliberate sin by those 'in charge' of the Bible Students/JW Org.

And they seem to boast about it in that book as if making the changes was so good. Yes good, but much too late, as it should have been done as soon as they realised.

Can you not see the pattern ? The GB / Org 'bosses' know about things much sooner than they let the congregants know. Not giving the right food at the proper time... Could it be that they were /are frightened of losing so many people from the Org if they do things properly.

Carry that through to the Child Abuse / Pedophilea problem and once again it can clearly be seen that the GB and HQ's in every country knew about the serious problem of Child Abuse in many many congregations, but deliberately held back on taking positive action. Most active JW's never knew for years about it, and many still don't know. Once again deliberate sinning was / is taking place.

Shunning. This one is a mixed bag of course. But if it leads to people being left completely alone and depressed then i would think it was not God's or Jesus Christ's intentions. It should be made clear when a person is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', whether they were disfellowshipped or 'resigned', and whether the person sinned against God or not. No personal details need to be given but the congregation should know if they are allowed to talk to the person or not. Many congregants unfortunately will not think for themselves, they need guidance or 'approval' from the elders.

Quite funny that the Org prints this magazine 'Return to Jehovah', but no one is supposed to even talk to ex JW's.

When the bible reminds us 'not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together' I don't think it mean in such a 'military way'.

I understand your points and you have expressed them very well. I will address each point you raised separately, but first I just want to mention a few general things which have perhaps shaped the perception of people like you and me. I grew up in the "truth" in the early 80's when the GB was mostly an anonymous mystery, at least to many who were living outside of America. The "truths" people like me assimilated during those years were turned into dogmatic doctrines by people like me. We always talked starting a phrase with "we KNOW....." as if we could never make a mistake. We had a general attitude of superiority. WE had the truth and therefor WE were somehow better than other people. WE had an answer for "everything".

And then came the age of the internet. It was a kind of "Internet enlightenment". It had been around for a while before that, but soon everybody had access to it, and was using it. Information that the ordinary person wouldn't have had before, became available to them at the touch of a button. There were things that were "discovered" by the ordinary brother and sister that were there all along, but that were only known by more prominent brothers and sisters, which included those involved with Bethel, but also ordinary brothers and sisters which happened to live closer to the "source" . But now the ordinary brother came to know things that at times "shocked" him, because in their little personal world they had built a picture, but that picture wasn't always correct. As I mentioned, dogmatic opinions on various subjects were formed, which actually were not intended to be understood that way. Here is an example of what I mean; I am sure you know of instances yourself, where a elder giving a talk would expound on something he felt strongly about. A kind of "pet" subject of his. Most of the time the audience would take what he said as gospel truth, and talk about it like it was fact and part and parcel of "official" teachings. But all it actually was, was the brothers opinion. This happened many times in the days of only a brief outline of a talk, giving the speaker much freedom to practically say anything he wanted.

A classic and famous example is that of Charles Sinutko giving the talk about 1975. He wasn't just an elder, but a district overseer, and he gave that misleading talk in front of an audience of thousands. Similar talks were given around the world no doubt. I was too young at the time but @Outta Here remembers such talks, and also the almost "fanatical" approach of some in the congregations. Was this all the GB's doing? It wasn't, but it shows the freedom that existed with regard to expressing ones opinion in an "official" setting, by means of talks etc. As you probably know, now there are strict outlines for talks. Not only that, but elders are instructed to Only give the Bible's advice when serving in a shepherding or judicial capacity, and never give their personal opinions. I am sure this new approach became a necessity because of the damage personal opinions had caused in the past.

One I want to focus on specifically is the handling of child abuse. The congregation was well equipped to prevent child abuse on the surface. But it was all contingent on members actually reading and applying what was in the publications that discussed those issues. The JW congregation has always been very strict on upholding moral standards. In comparison, the rest of the world was in a moral decline (think "free love" that started in the 60's) and with it no doubt came problems associated with loose morals. Secular authorities were ill equipped to handle accusations of rape and child sexual abuse, as you yourself can testify. In this environment Elders were trying to handle something that was disgusting and shocking and should have never occurred in the Christian congregation in the first place! Some Elders got confused and misapplied WT 1973/11/15 "question from readers" regarding the application of 1 Cor 6:1-7, and the interpretation of 1Timothy 5:19. Many Elders were stuck between a rock and a hard place with regard to reporting to the police because of the way the police handled (or not handled) these cases, and because many victims and their families did not want to report to the police. It was almost like an attitude of: "this is our private problem, and we will handle it as our private problem".

Finally today, secular authorities are educated and equipped enough to address these issues properly, and I would say we are at the pinnacle of "enlightenment" with regard to CSA, at least in the western world. Victims are at last able to come forward and be heard. Abusers are being tried and punished. This has also spilled into historic sexual abuse of women as in the #metoo brigade. BUT despite all this, CSA and the abuse of women is as rampant as ever unfortunately....

You have a good heart John and I feel you have unnecessarily thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

But I do want to address those issues individually that you mentioned, but I will have to do that tomorrow now as I am running out of time and have to go and cook dinner....

Thinking · November 6, 2018

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty.

Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.

At a Circuit assembly we had a Bethel brother admit a number had been hurt by the organization...and were justified in their pain..he admited we had problems with in the org..and even tho they are trying to fix them..he admitted they probably won’t be fixed before the end comes....

when Jesus cleaned out the temple with whip etc...at no time did his apostles or any followers join him in doing that...so it will be when he returns....

He allowed Solomon and Saul to rule as kings for a long time after their falling away...

you honestly think any man..annoited or not can do what belongs To Christ...look at the pattern of his people....it’s not hard to work out....

There is a reason for him allowing things to be as they are.....

Thinking · November 7, 2018

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, you will not find the exact wording you are looking for in scripture. We could infer as I mentioned before on how to apply scripture for certain situations. I would assume you would know this as a former member. This, of course, its with the assumption you received the proper bible training.

This is why scripture reflects on the proper teaching for our children. It is the parent’s responsibility to not only teach their children in the Lord's way but also with what harm that can be had around them. In today's society, we can’t always trust our own family much less a stranger.

What safeguards has a parent instilled in their children? The Watchtower throughout the decades has given many examples of how to safeguard our children. Proverbs 22:6

What more can be done? The point to these is being diminished by 30-40-year-old claims that have surfaced to extend profit to the courts and lawyers. Profiteering, cashing in. Not really caring for the victim, but what the victim can bring forth to success.

How can scripture help parents?

Matthew 18:10

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:6

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

This defines the role of the parents to safeguard their children. Why doesn’t scripture specifically talk directly to children? It should be obvious to everyone. They are vulnerable and LEARNING. Children shouldn’t have a need to defend themselves when the mature ones (parents) have that responsibility.

When my father saw, a brother talking to my sister in the kingdom hall, he would go to be part of that conversation. Once again, family values. If a parent sees an older brother talking to their younger children, are the parents supposed to trust, or play defensive? Christian parents somehow think the Elders are supposed to play referee with all their local congregants.

Where are the parents in all of this? Aside from wanting to live a carefree life, sometimes with song and dance, what prevents parents from fulfilling their duties.

2 Thessalonians 3:3

But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

This is indeed what is going on. The parents washed their hands like Pilate and assume no responsibility. They want to blame the GB, the Elders, the church. Everyone except themselves.

Activism from the outside or the inside by members that shouldn’t call themselves members anymore will not change the responsibility the parent has. If the government can’t do it, then why should the church. What the church can do, is continue to show areas of concern and print articles, kept their members alert so they can best handle their responsibility as the Watchtower has for decades.

Isaiah 49:25

For thus says the Lord: “Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken, and the prey of the tyrant be rescued, for I will contend with those who contend with you, and I will save your children.

Romans 8:28

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Now, what is the responsibility of the church?

James 1:27

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

The GB is not there to do the parents job. They have a specific role. Its to dispense spiritual food. They have given themselves to Christ as an example. What example are Watchtower members showing God, they are unified. None.

Hey Brother Billie..your way out on this....it is undeniable if you watched the ARC...we as a people were found to have faulty policies...that’s a fact..we were forced to ammend them.

Kids suffered because elders did not report or advise them to go to authorities...we tried to handle it in house....because Jehovah’s name was involved...some of these kids were shoved aside by their spiritual elders...come on brother..we have to accept responsibility where we were wrong....

otherwise the Catholic Church can lay it all down on the parents as well...

we as a people would not handle cases of abuse as we once did....but back then we did shove it under the carpet in a number of cases.

The child suffered...having said that many were handled well as could be...but we dont hear about them.

The GB made the Policies brother...and now have amended the policies..

Keep in minds for those who will jump on this as proof we are not his people......the Catholic Church and Anglican Chirch has a percentage of well over 50% ..I forget the actual number but I’ve quoted on the low side....Jehovah witnesses had a ratio of 1%

so this needs to be kept in perspective...

It was a era of naivety on our parts ..as parents and probably elders as well...it was a different time ....we trusted to much....but then again the apostles didn’t recognize Judas when he was amongst them either...

Witness · November 7, 2018

19 hours ago, Thinking said:

but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people...

I know you must agree, the camp of Israel under Moses’ direction is incomparable to the Watchtower organization, which is under the direction, not of Christ, but of uninspired men. Moses was an inspired prophet, and relayed all of God’s decrees right to the people. There is just no comparison. Those that made the golden calf were rebels of Moses, and who immediately lost their lives. Exod 32:25-27 The organization was introduced by Rutherford. The organizational “decrees” came from his mouth. Christ would have no reason to add to God’s decrees, since by his coming he fulfilled the law. Matt 5:17-20 What further laws are needed? The Pharisees felt there were many little nitpicking elements that had to be added to the law; and apparently, so do WT leaders. Isa 28:9-13; Matt 16:6-12; 15:7-9

Well, if you’re going to build a golden calf to lead the people, it must come with a new set of rules. It’s a small point, but I find it interesting that the Shepherd the Flock of God book uses the similar number format as the Bible. In the index, “Apostasy 5:16” It is worth turning to this “scripture” for their viewpoint.

"When the people saw that Moses had not come down from the mountain but was staying there a long time, they gathered around Aaron and said to him, “We do not know what has happened to this man Moses, who led us out of Egypt; so make us a god to lead us.” Exod 32:1

“Let us discuss five things we must do to keep our zeal and to follow the lead of Jehovah’s organization. ws13 4/15 pp. 21-26

How many passed generations have been under the power and lead of the organization while still believing they worship only God?

"Beware of "organization." It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in the grace and knowledge and love day by day. CT Russell, Zion's Watch Tower, Sept. 15, 1895, pg 216

Perhaps not the sisters you speak of, but what brought many JWs into the hands of terror? It was the name that led them there; the image of a spirit-directed organization that determined their actions and worship. Rev 13:15,16 It is the name established by a man who instigated and built it; impressing upon his followers that the organization was a vital concept requiring one’s devotion and service. Rutherford. The man who initially tried to side with Hitler, by using lies.

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In spite of Russell’s quote, the golden calf began building with JWs’ valuables, at the organization’s early inception. This calf is a beast that “kills” anyone who rejects it vocally, when wanting to serve ONLY God and Christ. Dan 3:17,18; Rev 13:11-17; Dan 3:28; Rev 12:11; 15:2-4

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“Remember that he will save his Theocratic organization whom he here addresses, and so let our desire for safety and deliverance spur us to adhere tightly to the organization. w50 10/1 pp. 349-356

^“Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them; do not arouse my anger with what your hands have made. Then I will not harm you.” “But you did not listen to me,” declares the Lord, “and you have aroused my anger with what your hands have made, and you have brought harm to yourselves.” Jer 25:6,7

The Lord replied, “When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites,the Philistines, ¹²the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonitesoppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? ¹³But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. ¹⁴Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!” Judges 10:11-14</

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At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

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At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

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