Patiently waiting for Truth

The Paradise book. I had that, many years ago. I wonder if i still have it somewhere.

Arauna seems to have OCD about hating all ex Witnesses and about being blind to faults with the GB and the JW Org. She even seems to have OCD about using the expression OCD. Quote "ONE minute you judge us for being too harsh and the next that we are too soft? " Yes too harsh by punishing some who were actually victims, but too soft by protecting paedophile elders and ministerial servants. Sorry to be so harsh but it HAS BEEN PROVEN in court cases, here in UK as well as in USA. Arauna, I'm talking facts here. There is real proof of my statement. Quote "Would you like it if you committed fornication or some other act if the entire act was announced to the congregation? " Didn't the Apostle Paul do exactly that ? 1 Corinthians 5 v 1 New International VersionIt is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. But I'm not talking about fornication between two consenting adults, I'm talking about Child Sexual Abuse by an adult member of the congregation. Quote "Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively but by the neglect of congress (regress) to not put proper laws in place." I know nothing of law and certainly i know nothing about American law, BUT, remember, 'We must serve God as ruler, rather then men'. God's laws should be written on the hearts of those taking the lead. So to use secular law as an excuse to mishandle those breaking God's laws, makes no sense.

Although some of Jack's input is interesting, i do fear for his spiritual and mental well being. I also hope he does not own a gun

Witness which I suspect is you, Is this rubbish really going to start again. I was following this blog / forum long before I chose to join it, and one reason I didn't join earlier was reading all the horrid stupidity of people saying, x was y, and you must be he, and telling one person that they had three different user names just to give themselves up votes etc etc, It is obviously people that are losing a debate / discussion, or people who feel hurt by someone's comments. BUT it does no good to the blog as a whole. Just wastes everyone's time.

Hence I feel the scriptures were / are written for the Anointed, not for the earthly class. I feel that only the Anointed should fully understand scripture as they are 'one' with Christ. The rest of us are just the other sheep. I like the scripture about 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' The 'Jew' being the Anointed class, the ones clinging being the earthly class.

Yes, One of the good points about JW Org

What seems to have been proven in courts is that Elders deliberately hid the information from congregants, hence elders or others could continue to commit CSA offences, and also that elders that had committed CSA WERE moved from one congregation to another. Those things HAVE been proven in court cases. So your defence of the GB Org is not so true.

No nation on Earth considers death by warfare to be either murder or suicide. Neither does Jehovah God. I think I'd have to disagree on this... God / Christ made it clear that from the death / resurrection of Jesus Christ, that all people were equal. I would think that God would now see it as murder to kill anyone intentionally. I know that questions the idea of defence and the stopping of terrorism but ..

I've always believed, and continue to believe, that only the Anointed are the body of Christ.

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ? There is it seems a massive data base of Child Sexual Abuse accusations hidden within the Org. And do you have all that information, so that you know who is and who isn't on that list ? Do you know why the GB are holding back that list ? In Australia the brothers must have handed over their list of names about CSA accusations. Here in the UK, after court action, the brothers handed over their list of CSA accusation. But in the USA the GB and /or their lawyers are refusing to hand over their information ? Someone will scream 'but the laws are different in USA'. It would make no difference if the laws are different in USA, IF the GB would act on the scripture 'We must obey God as ruler, rather than men'. Seems quite funny that the GB /Org tells people to disobey laws of man when it involves some things, such as joining the armed forces, but yet the GB hides behind laws when it suits them. @Srecko Sostar Thank you, but did you actually read ALL of that ? Sorry i only read bits. Too much for me. .

@JW Insider Yes I'm angry and I'm confused, as are others that trusted the JW Org for years, only to find out things that the GB / Org does that cannot surely be approved of by God. Unfortunately you use that word apostates again, because JW's are brainwashed with that word by GB / Elders. I do wonder is there ever a meeting in a KH where that word isn't mentioned, either from platform of congregation. Can you not just accept that some of us are seeking TRUTH. Quote "Of course, I've brought up some of these same challenges myself, ...." "I believe that we need some doctrinal adjustment" " I'm not exactly defending the GB position against your challenges. " (I come to bury Caesar not to praise him). " Yes. The GB dictate to the congregations and, unless the dictate is seen as unconscionable or unscriptural, the members of the congregations are expected to obey. Naturally, this can go too far,... " (and it does go to far hence people complaints). " GB's request to be trusted while admitting that some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. " I believe the Watchtower comment was that the "GB are not inspired, so they can 'make mistakes and err' " I picked up on this because the word 'err' can mean make mistakes or deliberately do wrong. But they would have written 'make mistakes and make mistakes' so the word 'err' in this case must have been meant to deliberately do wrong. Add to this that you are saying that "some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. " So if your GB are the F&DS FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE, why would God or Christ give them false information, or why would they be so indiscreet as to 'run ahead' of God given information. They admit to not being inspired, we agree on that much, surely they should be, as you would say, 'spirit directed' ? Do you thing the 'overlapping generations' is spirit directed ? By the way, in your hypothesis, I didn't see the mention of God's holy spirit playing a part even once. I think I'm actually 'offended' (that not being exactly the word I'm looking for but.) by the words Governing Body. I hate when people use that to describe the first century overseers. Governing surely means to be in charge of, whereas those at the top should not be 'lording it over the congregation of God'. I would think a different title would be more appropriate. What is your opinion on that ? "guardians of doctrine." didn't the Catholic church once use that expression ? So much so that they didn't allow people to have the Bible..... But JW's are allowed to have their own Bibles and to do private study. However if JW's come to their own conclusion about certain scriptures, they must not share that with other JW's or it may be seen as 'causing a division in the congregation'. I find it funny, sorry. It's like, yes read the Bible yourself but only believe what we say. It is now just after 12 noon here in UK. I need lunch and coffee (just to show you that I'm actually human). I could write tons more, such as the GB being 7 of the 8 American, whereas it could be more men from different countries. Or , such as the GB now being famous earth wide, but then telling the rest of the Anointed to not even contact each other. The GB saying only they are the F&DS, where as it was once the whole of the Anointed being the F&DS. Thelist goes on. And the fact that you are @JW Insider A JW but giving out info about the GB and it's Org, so you cannot be completely happy with it yourself. Physically in but possibly spiritually out. Have a good day.

I know nothing about law and defo' nothing about American law. So can someone kindly break this down into simple terms for me. What exactly are the GB members being accused of ? I ask because I don't want to gain or give wrong information. Does this involve the Child Sex Abuse database ? It is does would it mean the GB / Lawyers would have to hand over the database to the courts / authorities ? Maybe @TrueTomHarley would have some kind of 'level headed' input on this ? @James Thomas Rook Jr. I haven't got to understand where you are in / out of JW Org but do you have any 'sensible' input to this ? You may or may not know but us British are not allowed to receive some info' / news reports etc, from some countries. I often go in to do research and get a bit NO from certain sites. Something to do with data protection maybe ? So I am deeply interested in this info from @Jack Ryan . Thank you Jack. But I'd honestly like some level headed, neutral information to clarify what the GB members are being accused of and what it will or could mean for the JW Org. I have often seen on this Forum that the GB are the top guys and cannot be removed from 'office' as there is no one in a position to remove them. Will this court action make a difference to the GB's position in the JW Org ? I have to agree with @TrueTomHarley on many things he says. The JW Org speaks truth according to scripture on many things. And with a bit of tweaking it might just serve God well . The GB or Writing dept' do spoil it all though with, what i call running ahead of God. So I do wonder what the future holds for JW Org.

@Anna I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word. And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint. Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas, change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. @TrueTomHarley Talking of blood you said "Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.” " Whereas the blood was already mixed surely and was full blood, but it has been broken down from that mixture. A bit like un-mixing your cake. And I'm not quite sure who you are referring to above, as to ' they are now regarded as “inspired ' . Do you mean the first century Christians or the present GB ?

@TrueTomHarley You honestly do make yourself sound stupid with some things you write. (AS you have said about me) What is supposed to be, or is 'advertised as' a Bible study, should be a study of the Bible. Would you have refused to use a Bible in a BIBLE STUDY ? The books used in a so called 'bible study' are books written by the GB or Writing Dept' of JW Org / Watchtower, and are therefore only aimed at getting people into the JW Org. Add to that, that the books are continually changing the teachings, doctrines, beliefs, whichever words you wish to use. So much so that some books get withdrawn or at least no longer discussed in public. Lets harp back a few years when the teaching was 'each creative day is 7,000 years long'. Many people would have studied a book saying exactly that. Now the Bible has never said that has it ? And the Org no longer seem to believe that either. So there is one tiny bit of evidence that JW Org books are not fully reliable, and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word. Maths is maths so basic maths shouldn't change. 'Science', well as it's part of the world in a lot of respects, it changes constantly. BUT GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE., that's the point. I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are. I wonder if there is actually any holy spirit flowing down from above to your GB / Writing Dept' / Lawyers / Elders et al. I do wonder in fact, if 'much has been given' to the GB, or have they in fact, stolen it. JW's (well maybe in your opinion anyway) seem to forgive many of the GB's mistakes, deliberate wrongdoings, man made rules etc. But I have noticed on here that even JW's (or those that appear to be JW's) seem not to believe or agree with much of the GB's 'new light'.

To quote Arauna "We are citizens of a future government and learning and adhering to the laws of this future government." It would seem you are 'citizens' of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and adhering to the 'laws' of it's Governing Body. @Srecko Sostar I like your last paragraph above. When Jesus was here on earth he healed the sick and helped those in need, in a physical way as well as a spiritual way. Jesus has empathy and matched it with action. Now did Jesus do this just to show what the future 'paradise' would be like, to show that through God's holy spirit he could solve all the problems of the people ? Or, did Jesus do those things because he really cared for the people ? Or both ? And thinking on the scripture from James concerning 'widows and orphans', is this action only to be used within the Org or more generally ?

OK Mr Harley, you win.

Once again you make fun of my comment. My point was that if contracts / agreements were in place that they would have to be completed until such an agreement came to it's official end. End of contract. Would it have been right for 'brothers' to break off an agreement part way through a 'deal' using the shunning excuse as a reason ? Would that be what God sees as just and true action ? I think not.

@TrueTomHarley Yes My Harley you do poke your nose in . I have attended enough congregation meetings to know that on a Thursday eve' here in the UK, congregants are given instruction with demonstrations as to what and how to present material on the doors. Magazine demonstrations are regular items. As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference. It can therefore be seen as indoctrination of GB / JW Org thinking. If it was purely a JW answering questions asked by a member of the public, and using the Bible to answer those questions, that could be called a Bible study. As an example of this, if you have copies of JW books from the 1960's / 70's, you will notice great changes in 'doctrines' / teachings from then up till now. But if you have a Bible from back 100 years, God's word never changes.

@Arauna Quote " I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled " Myopic is an adjective meaning shortsighted in every sense. Whether you need glasses or a new attitude, if you can't see the forest for the trees, you're myopic. Governing Body = Americans = myopic. 7 of the 8 are American. You have travelled the world. Quote "What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to " So it may be that the GB 'cling to a culture and certain values' of America. Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ? That way they could understand 'cultures' and 'certain values' of different peoples. I would presume there are many Anointed ones in many different countries that are equal in spirituality to the GB. Unfortunately the GB do not seem to think so, as they seem to tell the Anointed not to contact each other. You say about yourself "I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules." You say about me "I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship." I find this very amusing I also find your constant mentioning of 'morality' very funny, considering the state of the JW Org regarding child sexual abuse earth wide. Quote "Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise on? " Tell that to the GB lawyers in their court cases. James 1 v 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation,i and to keep oneself without spot from the world. Judge the GB and the JW Org on that scripture not as @Anna does , by comparing it to the Pope and the Catholic church.

@TrueTomHarley Quote " Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. " I have Mr Harley, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In the days when i believed all that the Watchtower would say. I didn't find the ministry at all 'frightening'. I found it to be fun though obviously having a serious theme. People in general would either listen or just say no. Always difficult to get good rounded discussions though in my opinion. I will admit to never getting beyond basic presentations and only getting invited in a very few times. @JW Insider Thank you for your patience and great response. The American way seems far different to the British way, in my opinion anyway., and it seems to reflect within the Org and on this forum.

@JW Insider Having just put my computer on (11 am UK time) I find i have eleven comments to read through. Your comment here is number one. So if anyone has already answered you I haven't read it yet, and I am just answering on this comment alone I see a lot of confusion here, but I'll try my best. Quote 'We're never going to get away from leaders who are imperfect and who will, by human nature, tend to ask us to believe 'and act only in a certain way. ' In short you are saying that the GB dictate to the congregants and the congregants are expected to obey. However, Quote 'Jesus' instructions to the 7 congregations was never about waiting for a governing body of apostle-like persons to tell them what was true and false teaching. It was the congregation's own responsibility to put to the test anyone who wanted them to be accepted as apostle-like.' (Revelation 2:2, 14) . . .and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.. So there you have the GB that tells congregants to do as they are told and to " believe 'and act only in a certain way. ' " But Jesus said it was the congregations responsibility to put them to the test. However if a member of a congregation does put the GB to the test, you and I know exactly what would happen to them. We can see on here what happens to anyone that should dare to say the GB are not the F&DS. Even though the GB admit that they are not inspired. And on that point, everyone should note that HUGE difference between our time, and the first century Christian time. The leaders of first century Christianity WERE Inspired. The leaders, of any religion now are NOT inspired. That makes a huge difference when making any comparison. In fact IMO it takes away all comparison. It also questions how anyone now would know if they are of the Anointed, if they are not inspired ? but maybe that is for another topic. 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. Well actually Jesus' disciples didn't practice and observe many of those things. Animal sacrifices, circumcision, probably the washing of hands (how many times ?) etc. Quote "We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect." But would you honestly want to ? Would you want to go door to door with a message, if in your heart you knew it was not a true message ? Overlapping generations for instance? And would not your heart be heavy if you obeyed just to remain 'true and faithful' to your leaders ? Hence worshipping the GB and its Elders. For instance I remember reading on here, and I'm sorry i cannot reference it, about the GB /Writing Dept / Watchtower, saying it was OK for witnesses to tell lies as it was Spiritual Warfare. It may have been referring to Elders under certain circumstances, but to give the ok to tell lies. I think it was from a Watchtower publication and it looked genuine when i read it. "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" Didn't one of the GB make a statement that God trusts the GB so all congregants should trust the GB ? Oh, I do wish I could find these things to show proof ! Anyway I'm sure you can see my quandary, and this is just with this one comment of yours. I have ten more comments to read yet. I need coffee

I do believer the Workbook is the item used at mid-week meetings, when telling the congregants exactly what they should be preaching. And as I had mentioned that congregants were told what to preach i thought it right to reference the Workbook.

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. Quite strange that Mr Harley missed off the word WORKBOOK when he quoted me above.

It would seem that some JW's on here wear blinkers and worship their Governing Body. So be it if it gives them comfort. @Anna Side tracks by comparing the GB to the Pope, instead of comparing the GB to God's high standards of truth and honesty. Mr Harley side tracks by trying to make fun of others. I have mentioned before that i could feed you a meal of ¾ good food and ¼ poison. The problem being that the poison would contaminate the good food. The Bible Students and the JW Org have indeed produced some really 'good food', but unfortunately the GB go beyond the things written and jump ahead by interpreting Bible scriptures in their own way, without spiritual guidance it would seem. You don't need to ask me for examples as it's all been shown on this blog here before.

@Anna To quote you "It is implied by some on here that the GB controls everyone. " The GB try to control everyone within the Org, but as you say there are 'rebels'. (Moses used a similar word). It would seem to me, though only my opinion, that there are many so called JW's, that are physically in, but mentally/ spiritually out, of the Org. Or at least not in agreement with the GB on many issues.