Outta Here

If that is the extent of your understanding of God's word.......then I understand your position at last.

You do not have a truth by which you are able to define what is false in this matter.

Everyone in the world makes judgements about what another thinks is true at times, even of themselves. Same response as earlier,

This hypothesis is based on the false premise that the use of a two beam cross has been established as a fact which, patently, it has not. We do not reject fact in preference to fiction, that is just the allegation of opposers. But we do reserve the right to support an alternative, where such exists, regardless of it being popularly accepted or not. When possibilities are established as facts, we will adjust our thinking. This is something which is not always the case with opposers, and is the subject of much of their crticism.

Your research is interesting but this statement detracts from it's quality because if nothing else, there remains the fact that the implement used to execute Jesus is not clearly defined in scripture. So to ridicule those who chose one alternative over another does not enhance your position. Whilst the many details outlined above can be found rummaging through the rubbish, there is one point you raise in passing that I have considered although not mentioned so far: Research and experiment have indicated that a T-beam execution could be a long drawn out affair, even lasting days. A single pale execution however would be over much more quickly, estimates ranging from minutes to hours. Regardless of Pharisees and scribes desires in this matter, we also need to consider the will of Jesus's Father, Jehovah God. He has made a promise to those carrying their own (symbolic, thankyou @JW Insider) torture stake. Even if subjected to the ultimate sacrifice along with their trials at the hands of the "ruler of the world" (John 14:30), Jehovah promised that "he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it." 1Cor.10:13. Jesus cry of “It has been accomplished!” (John 19:30) after 3 hours of hanging on the stake obviated his hanging there any longer. A single stake method of execution was enough to achieve this purpose.

I appreciate the point you are making here, however that is not the one I am making. My "opinion" on the matter in question is simply that, my "opinion". It is not "wrong" because it cannot be proven either way. It is just my choice of a particular alternative. Your point takes the matter further in that you are making a judgement of what another thinks is "true" to be actually "wrong". That is a completely different arena.

Can you at least get the research right when you do this sort of stuff....please Yes Watchtower 7/1879 page 8 No Watchtower Oct 15 1936 p313 Yes Watchtower Jan 1 1939 p13. No Watchtower December 1 1941. p367 No Watchtower July 15 1948 p219 No Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338 Yes Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479 Yes Aid to Bible Understanding 1971 page 1519 Yes Live Forever (old Ed.)1982 page 179 p9,10. No Live Forever (new Ed. 1982) chap. 21 p. 179 par. 9 No Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31 Yes Insight, vol. 2.,1988 page 985 No Revelation book, 1988 page 273 No Insight, vol. 2., page 985 revised 2017

Of a particular male bovine, per chance?

They say in this case the nail hit a knot in the wood which caused the bend.

Misapplication alert!. Post-Pentecost!!! No one was gathering for Jesus Post-Pentecost apart from anointed Christians. Even Apollos needed sorting! Acts 18:24. As for the motives of the (scurrilous) sons of Sceva, they are pretty obvious in respect of their experience at the hands of their demon collaborators. They had ample opportunity to go to the true source of spiritual power in having become acquainted with the miraculous works carried out through the apostle Paul. They played with fire, with proverbial results (compare Numbers 16:35). Sadly true. Hence the name "Jehovah's Witnesses". Not the primary reason. I learned about the crux simplex possibility long before I had even decided to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, though admittedly from the picture provided by Justus Lipsius (who, despite describing the crux simplex, favoured a two-beam cross for Jesus execution I believe.). Just the existence of a possible alternative to the traditional view was mind-boggling to me at the time, and caused me to revaluate many other "taken-for-granted" notions in connection with religious belief. This is the fact of the matter, and I feel that the scholarly attempts of those who seek to establish the "fact" of a two-beamed cross are actually, so far, similarly impotent (IMV). That is why our website states (for those inclined to research the matter): "However, the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty." So at the end of the day, it is a matter of preference. I prefer the unpopular view. Agreed, particularly on the terms you outline. Says who? I see these not so much as a "rotting carcass", more as left over "manna" (Ex16:20). And I think this could be extended past Rutherford's day.

They are as similar to true Christians as darkness is to light. The aim of their attempt to be "successful" in their abuse of Jesus' name was to further their charlatan career. Their complicity with the demons was with or without their full knowledge of what they were doing. Many who work with the demons in their deception think they are actually controlling the activity of these creatures. All they are doing is furthering that illusion. Jesus wasn't theorising when he asked the scribes who enabled their sons to expel demons. Luke 11:19. Neither do we deny that sewage contains water. Absolutely. But I think we would by now have agreed fully on that? It still doesn't change the fact that the apostasy associated with the two bar cross is far greater than a crux simplex which has not become the brand mark of "Christian" apostasy. Agreed, but we have Jehovah's spirit to enable us to discern apostasy. That is what I was driving at. Apostasy against Jehovah is Satanic in origin and is actively promoted by him. That is why it is difficult, even impossible to discern humanly. It is like carbon monoxide. We can only discern and protect our thinking from it's influence by means of God's spirit. And Jehovah will decide on how and when erroneous thinking will be corrected. He assesses the priorities and directs our action accordingly. I think this is a mistake. The Letter of Barnabas is like a car driven over a cliff. Any shred of truth in it is not a touchstone to evaluate our understanding today. At best, it is just a piece of untainted flesh in an otherwise rotting carcass. If the teaching is "true", it is because God's word is true. Psuedo-Barnabas may have got that bit right, we may have too. There the similarity ends. As for the stocks/xylon thing? well it appears the wheel has already been invented on that one. The Septuagint apparently equates xylon with the Hebrew word for stocks (Job 33:11) and even the classical greek of Aristophanes gives a clue in referring to this instrument of restraint. "Sometimes it was what Aristophanes calls πεντεσύριγγον ξύλον, "stocks with five holes," two for the feet, two for the hands, and one for the neck." (Pulpit Commentary). So somewhere a while back I indicated that my instincts lean me toward the single stake view of Jesus' executional implement. The fascinating and at times obscure detail unearthed in this discussion has not swayed my preference on this issue yet, but I recognise at the end of it all we cannot be definitive on what it was .....yet. This whole excercise reminds me of those poor people who make a living scavenging for gold on the streets of Mumbai. They do find some, but I think we can agree there are better ways to make a living. 😊

What is? publicising all those personal details you list in a case where the judgement is mistaken?

Getting something wrong is not the same as being an apostate. You actually know this, so I am surprised that you would use an argument of this nature. I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself here so will say nothing more on the topic for now. (regrettably, as I was dealing with the comment on the "stocks").

Similar to Origen's observation? Hardly! "Effectual" means : successful in producing a desired or intended result; their experience was that "the man in whom the wicked spirit was leaped upon them, got the mastery of one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house." Acts 19:16. That is not what they wanted surely? But it does indicate that any seeming influence thay had over demonic spirits was just an illusion. They were being manipulated to suit demonic ends. As for any sincerity in their actions, no chance. They just wanted to enhance their spiritistic and very likely lucrative scam. I could certainly conceive of individuals later seizing on any novelty idea to enhance a good luck charm, and certainly by the time this amulet was produced, the apostate legends clustering around the Jesus account would be like maggots in rotten meat. Almost, but not quite.Given the loose dating of 1st to 3rd Century, I would say that The “artist” possibly sees the crucifixion as the iconic, immediately recognizable image of apostate Christianity. 😊

Cue the Jaws theme yet again! Can't wait. 😁