b4ucuhear

It is one thing to speak frankly and honestly (rather than live in "pretend world") while also contributing to the spiritual welfare of our brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's another thing to have an agenda. An agenda to only tear down and direct people away from Jehovah's organization. That paints with too wide a brush and denies all the good that is done and can yet be done.
One conspicuous omission I see from all these cowardly nay-sayers, sniping from behind the safety of a computer screen, is: What are you offering that is better? What religion are you in that is so much better? Let's examine your beliefs publicly and see if it stands the same level of scrutiny you hold us to. While we are obedient to Christ's command to preach the good news world wide, what are you offering? Let me guess: Bingo, bake sales and bazaars...?

Yes, instruction is fine, but with this instruction comes honesty. For years we have bashed the Catholic church for shutting their eyes to child sexual molestation. Although our situation is different to that of the Catholic church,  we are not immune to those in authority using their position to get away with such things as child molestation, wife beating etc. Although not prolific like opposers would make out, still, in the words of our own organization "one molested child is one too many". The facts are; there have been elders and ministerial servants who have sexually molested children, and who have got away with it for a long time because no one would believe something like this could ever happen in our organization, after all we ARE Jehovah's organization! I do not believe the GB should hold our hands, just admitting this problem does exist in Jehovah's organization would suffice. Sooner or later this admission will be made, but the longer it's evaded, the worse the results will be as there will be a lot of publishers who will wonder why this information has been withheld for so long.....

Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder. She stayed despite that without making waves, until she started to see other things she found deeply disturbing and then she did "move on" as you say. Actually, she shouldn't have "moved on" because later on, most of the elders (the bad ones) were either removed or disfellowshipped - half of them were apostate (but that's not all they were up to). Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention. It took about 10 years to sort itself out (should have been much quicker considering the evidence), but it did, (although it took other elders to step in and do what actually had to be done.) Still, 1 Timothy 5:24 will prove to be true if you wait, in one way or another. 

I won't say anything except that is exactly what would happen. 
 
This primarily is referring to anointed Christians who have "received the heavenly free gift and become partakers of holy spirit." However, by extension, we also apply it to the great crowd. It would be dangerous however to set ourselves up as being in the judgment seat of God and decide for ourselves that people whom we may disagree with (or are in fact wrong) can't make changes before they die or merit everlasting destruction. It would be pretty dangerous to throw that around lightly in this kind of venue.
I don't think anybody is suggesting there won't continue to be congregations, even despite stuff that shouldn't happen. As far as "...experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today...," I just read those two chapters over and I won't comment on that, just to say I think "blasphemy" would be worse for sure. I couldn't add any further without being too specific. 
Seriously? Ask a Catholic choir boy...or...
You mean like quoting John 8:7, and from a different translation that you cherry picked to agree with you? The F&DS tell us that the 12 verses at John 7:53-8:11 are spurious and "...have been obviously added to the original text of John's gospel." But having the NWT, you already know that don't you? So to highlight your own agenda you quote a spurious passage from a translation that we don't even use/accept the passage of (except on the side). Another reason some feel that verse is spurious is that it in principle, contradicts God's word - especially when it comes to exposing wrongdoing from within the congregation. 
What religion did you say you were again? It doesn't read that way in our Bible. (And I won't bother to comment on your omission of verse 19 of 1 Corinthians 11 - as translated in the literal Kingdom Interlinear and pretty well every other Bible.) 

I had never heard of "Johnny the Bethelite," "Rick Fearon" nor any of the blogs/websites you linked to until I saw your post. That is because I don't go to those places except by accident. But apparently, in direct violation of the clear direction we get from the Faithful and Discreet Slave, you do. Your post is like telling someone: "Hey there is a roaring lion down the path in that cave that wants to kill you. Why don't you go and check it out? In fact, I'll help you along by greasing that slippery slope with a direct link to it."  Whose side are you on anyway? It brings to mind a couple of expressions: "A danger to himself and others" and "with friends like that who needs enemies?"
Are you kidding me? Someone disagrees with you and you come up with that nonsense? My intention has always been to help people stay active and in the truth, despite the things that have stumbled many. Things that they find hard to rationalize. Things that YOU can't even stand to hear, let alone experience in real life. The fact is, I would have found it very difficult myself had not others patiently and lovingly showed they understood what I was seeing/going through, having experienced it themselves and providing seasoned scriptural advice to make sense of this madness. No one else would have understood and I would have been on my own. I think such ones are a gift from Jehovah. And although some people live in "pretend world," or as most, simply never see this stuff, shouldn't  basic common sense tell you that this stuff goes on? When someone is df'd let's say as an apostate/immoral/molester... How long do you think that has been going on for? Just that day? Doesn't reality tell you that at times these (prophesied about) wicked men and imposters were men that were "not whom they appeared to be" for years, decades even? So what (sometimes) happens to the ones who are exposed to such men? Nobody believes them (or wants to believe them) - that's what. Or they are viewed as negative trouble-makers by guys like you. Guys who set themselves up as "keepers of the faith" while ignoring/denying these spiritual "widows and orphans."  These little sheep often leave the truth when they are treated like that. 

I won't say anything except that is exactly what would happen. 
 
This primarily is referring to anointed Christians who have "received the heavenly free gift and become partakers of holy spirit." However, by extension, we also apply it to the great crowd. It would be dangerous however to set ourselves up as being in the judgment seat of God and decide for ourselves that people whom we may disagree with (or are in fact wrong) can't make changes before they die or merit everlasting destruction. It would be pretty dangerous to throw that around lightly in this kind of venue.
I don't think anybody is suggesting there won't continue to be congregations, even despite stuff that shouldn't happen. As far as "...experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today...," I just read those two chapters over and I won't comment on that, just to say I think "blasphemy" would be worse for sure. I couldn't add any further without being too specific. 
Seriously? Ask a Catholic choir boy...or...
You mean like quoting John 8:7, and from a different translation that you cherry picked to agree with you? The F&DS tell us that the 12 verses at John 7:53-8:11 are spurious and "...have been obviously added to the original text of John's gospel." But having the NWT, you already know that don't you? So to highlight your own agenda you quote a spurious passage from a translation that we don't even use/accept the passage of (except on the side). Another reason some feel that verse is spurious is that it in principle, contradicts God's word - especially when it comes to exposing wrongdoing from within the congregation. 
What religion did you say you were again? It doesn't read that way in our Bible. (And I won't bother to comment on your omission of verse 19 of 1 Corinthians 11 - as translated in the literal Kingdom Interlinear and pretty well every other Bible.) 

Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder. She stayed despite that without making waves, until she started to see other things she found deeply disturbing and then she did "move on" as you say. Actually, she shouldn't have "moved on" because later on, most of the elders (the bad ones) were either removed or disfellowshipped - half of them were apostate (but that's not all they were up to). Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention. It took about 10 years to sort itself out (should have been much quicker considering the evidence), but it did, (although it took other elders to step in and do what actually had to be done.) Still, 1 Timothy 5:24 will prove to be true if you wait, in one way or another. 

I had never heard of "Johnny the Bethelite," "Rick Fearon" nor any of the blogs/websites you linked to until I saw your post. That is because I don't go to those places except by accident. But apparently, in direct violation of the clear direction we get from the Faithful and Discreet Slave, you do. Your post is like telling someone: "Hey there is a roaring lion down the path in that cave that wants to kill you. Why don't you go and check it out? In fact, I'll help you along by greasing that slippery slope with a direct link to it."  Whose side are you on anyway? It brings to mind a couple of expressions: "A danger to himself and others" and "with friends like that who needs enemies?"
Are you kidding me? Someone disagrees with you and you come up with that nonsense? My intention has always been to help people stay active and in the truth, despite the things that have stumbled many. Things that they find hard to rationalize. Things that YOU can't even stand to hear, let alone experience in real life. The fact is, I would have found it very difficult myself had not others patiently and lovingly showed they understood what I was seeing/going through, having experienced it themselves and providing seasoned scriptural advice to make sense of this madness. No one else would have understood and I would have been on my own. I think such ones are a gift from Jehovah. And although some people live in "pretend world," or as most, simply never see this stuff, shouldn't  basic common sense tell you that this stuff goes on? When someone is df'd let's say as an apostate/immoral/molester... How long do you think that has been going on for? Just that day? Doesn't reality tell you that at times these (prophesied about) wicked men and imposters were men that were "not whom they appeared to be" for years, decades even? So what (sometimes) happens to the ones who are exposed to such men? Nobody believes them (or wants to believe them) - that's what. Or they are viewed as negative trouble-makers by guys like you. Guys who set themselves up as "keepers of the faith" while ignoring/denying these spiritual "widows and orphans."  These little sheep often leave the truth when they are treated like that. 

Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder. She stayed despite that without making waves, until she started to see other things she found deeply disturbing and then she did "move on" as you say. Actually, she shouldn't have "moved on" because later on, most of the elders (the bad ones) were either removed or disfellowshipped - half of them were apostate (but that's not all they were up to). Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention. It took about 10 years to sort itself out (should have been much quicker considering the evidence), but it did, (although it took other elders to step in and do what actually had to be done.) Still, 1 Timothy 5:24 will prove to be true if you wait, in one way or another. 

Yes. It is a good reproof. I have endeavored to mitigate that remark elsewhere, saying we never know for sure who that verse fits. But it a point worth repeating.

If 'Johnny the Bethelite' reported this (from his Bethel hidey-hole (more likely) Rick Fearon's closet ) then it must be legit.
Having said that, the mental distress of suddenly being cast out and shunned by family and friends is no laughing matter and, tragically, there have been suicides or suicide attempts by those who have suffered this treatment.
 
 
 

Well, AllenSmith ... and I assume you ARE Allen Smith, just trying a little deception ... (If I am wrong, please correct me...):
People rely on news where they can find it. Truth is where you find it .... especially when starving for truth!
The WTB&TS ONLY reports news that make them appear noble, and pure, and innocent and rightous ... and they are human beings just like all others, except that they NEVER report anything that might reflect on their IMPLIED claim of absolute competence ... and they NEVER apologize for any harm they cause by pretending to be experts on everything, misquoting references ( often with ellipsis ...  to deliberately obscure the real context of a quote..).
Like the old Soviet newspaper PRAVDA, and the last story in today's Watchtower ... they gloss over general disasters  with an obscure reference, because ONE couple was able to adapt, AND ALL NEWS ABOUT THEMSELVES .. IS GOOD NEWS!  
Fine if you are a Soviet Commissar, that is to be expected but .... everybody in Russia knew AND KNOWS the glorious worker's paradise was AND IS anything but .... except the IGNORANT, the delusional, and the stupid.
Like Charles Taze Russell said in the very first copy of the Watchtower ... IF Satan himself told you something that was the truth ... it would STILL be the truth, irregardless of the source.
Over the years, with their HIDING of relevant information, OBSCURING relevant information, and making up prophesies and types/antitypes that had absolutely NO basis in reality, generating artificial fear and anxiety over "end-times" predictions ...  and then weasel-wording around the facts that such things were ever said ....  and the list goes on, and on, and on, and on .. ad nauseum ... to directly answer your specific question ....
"My question would be, when did Jehovah Witnesses start relying on “apostate” NEWS by Johnny the Bethelite, and anything this EX-MEMBER has to say about the Watchtower in his blog"
THIS IS WHEN.
NOW.
Oh ....  and thank you for monitoring the many apostate websites to verify the source of YOUR research.

I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy."  But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness. 
I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact. 

It is one thing to speak frankly and honestly (rather than live in "pretend world") while also contributing to the spiritual welfare of our brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's another thing to have an agenda. An agenda to only tear down and direct people away from Jehovah's organization. That paints with too wide a brush and denies all the good that is done and can yet be done.
One conspicuous omission I see from all these cowardly nay-sayers, sniping from behind the safety of a computer screen, is: What are you offering that is better? What religion are you in that is so much better? Let's examine your beliefs publicly and see if it stands the same level of scrutiny you hold us to. While we are obedient to Christ's command to preach the good news world wide, what are you offering? Let me guess: Bingo, bake sales and bazaars...?

Unfortunately, that wasn't just true back in the '80's. I have seen the same thing and so have others - and it's not just true of NY Bethel. The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there." But prophetic warnings in Gods Word make clear that this type of stuff will happen - (not just could happen).. It's just that people think it's "negative talk" or something that "allegedly" happens to someone else until it happens to them.  
I have a lot of respect for mature, battle-hardened/wisened Christians who in a spiritual sense, are like the valiant mighty men of old who faced dangers from outside and within in defence of pure worship. Although I love also my "weaker" in faith brothers and sisters who would rather act as if these things can't/don't exist or even acknowledge it, I wouldn't want to be like that - in "pretend world." I have always wanted to know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" - even when it is uncomfortable - at least it's real and I know who/what I am dealing with. We can easily accept there will be wickedness from Satans system. Not so easy when it's from within "Jehovah's organization." But those who have this "tested quality of our faith" are a living testimony that these things are survivable, doable, and they can even maintain their joy in serving Jehovah stronger and wiser than before. 

I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy."  But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness. 
I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact. 

Unfortunately, that wasn't just true back in the '80's. I have seen the same thing and so have others - and it's not just true of NY Bethel. The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there." But prophetic warnings in Gods Word make clear that this type of stuff will happen - (not just could happen).. It's just that people think it's "negative talk" or something that "allegedly" happens to someone else until it happens to them.  
I have a lot of respect for mature, battle-hardened/wisened Christians who in a spiritual sense, are like the valiant mighty men of old who faced dangers from outside and within in defence of pure worship. Although I love also my "weaker" in faith brothers and sisters who would rather act as if these things can't/don't exist or even acknowledge it, I wouldn't want to be like that - in "pretend world." I have always wanted to know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" - even when it is uncomfortable - at least it's real and I know who/what I am dealing with. We can easily accept there will be wickedness from Satans system. Not so easy when it's from within "Jehovah's organization." But those who have this "tested quality of our faith" are a living testimony that these things are survivable, doable, and they can even maintain their joy in serving Jehovah stronger and wiser than before. 

I'm hoping that the purpose of posting isn't just to expose organizational flaws - it isn't in my case anyway. It's not fair for members of a family just to air dirty laundry. It seems apparent that Jay Witness has a bad agenda and as one poster mentioned in effect, we shouldn't believe everything opposers say.  It is more to get us thinking about our own attitudes toward wrongdoing we may face from within the organization. Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging." Question: Is that the example Jehovah set for us? Do you get the impression from reading his Word that in his organization (both heavenly and earthly) nothing bad ever happened? What about Jesus? Did he pretend badness/flaws didn't exist both in Jehovah's organization at the time (the Jews) or even among his followers? Or what about later when the Christian congregation was established...? Or what about the information published by the F&DS today? (i.e. chapter 28 of the Proclaimers Book: Testing and Sifting from Within). Can this all be just "airing dirty laundry?"  But yet, some feel if we consider these realities, it's somehow bad. To be clear: No one is suggesting a steady diet of negative experiences, so why consider them at all? To use your illustration: "...when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches...they don't stop being cockroaches...they just go somewhere else." When is that true? Whenever you look the other way and pretend they don't exist. Usually, when people go to the trouble of shining a light on something it is to do something about it. Otherwise, they just continue to exist - as you have correctly mentioned - and even proliferate. So, of course, we have a scriptural system in place whereby we don't just look the other way when we encounter wrongdoing. We report it and even when justice may take years, decades or even lifetimes, we leave matters in Jehovah's hands since we have fulfilled our personal obligation and not take matters into our own hands.I don't see anyone suggesting a mutiny for the organization to change here. Is that the end of the story though? What about in the meantime when we see people being stumbled or deeply troubled by something, THEN what is our obligation? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or apply God's counsel to us at 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4: "Praised by the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all out trials so that WE MAY BE ABLE TO COMFORT OTHERS IN ANY SORT OF TRIAL WITH THE COMFORT THAT WE RECEIVE FROM GOD." Some of us have seen and experienced things that would assuredly stumble others (I don't even tell elders or Circuit Overseers because the problem is not whether they would even believe me anyway ((they wouldn't)), but rather, what if they DID believe me? (I wouldn't go around blabbing about this stuff anyway). They would possibly be stumbled - even though they may THINK they have "seen everything." Some of these things are WAY outside the box. Things people wouldn't even think would exist or call to mind as a possibility. That is why those specifics are not being mentioned here. The fact is, none of these things as bad as they may be should stumble anyone - they haven't stumbled us and we have survived. But often what makes these things (although rare) survivable is the kindness, understanding, validation, acceptance and love of those who really have been there. Who can understand and help one make sense of things they thought could never happen because "angels would cull out whatever would stumble anyone." (they misunderstand the import of that verse in Matthew and so have unrealistic expectations of what should happen.) One of Jehovah's provisions to help us, is the support we get from our brotherhood. They can be a personal lifesaver and comfort that you wouldn't normally get from a magazine or public talk 
 

You are obviously a FALSE PROPHET!!!
THERE IS ONLY  ONE JAMES THOMAS ROOK!!!    His is a PERSONALITY IMPOSSIBLE TO INVENT!!!!

I'm hoping that the purpose of posting isn't just to expose organizational flaws - it isn't in my case anyway. It's not fair for members of a family just to air dirty laundry. It seems apparent that Jay Witness has a bad agenda and as one poster mentioned in effect, we shouldn't believe everything opposers say.  It is more to get us thinking about our own attitudes toward wrongdoing we may face from within the organization. Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging." Question: Is that the example Jehovah set for us? Do you get the impression from reading his Word that in his organization (both heavenly and earthly) nothing bad ever happened? What about Jesus? Did he pretend badness/flaws didn't exist both in Jehovah's organization at the time (the Jews) or even among his followers? Or what about later when the Christian congregation was established...? Or what about the information published by the F&DS today? (i.e. chapter 28 of the Proclaimers Book: Testing and Sifting from Within). Can this all be just "airing dirty laundry?"  But yet, some feel if we consider these realities, it's somehow bad. To be clear: No one is suggesting a steady diet of negative experiences, so why consider them at all? To use your illustration: "...when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches...they don't stop being cockroaches...they just go somewhere else." When is that true? Whenever you look the other way and pretend they don't exist. Usually, when people go to the trouble of shining a light on something it is to do something about it. Otherwise, they just continue to exist - as you have correctly mentioned - and even proliferate. So, of course, we have a scriptural system in place whereby we don't just look the other way when we encounter wrongdoing. We report it and even when justice may take years, decades or even lifetimes, we leave matters in Jehovah's hands since we have fulfilled our personal obligation and not take matters into our own hands.I don't see anyone suggesting a mutiny for the organization to change here. Is that the end of the story though? What about in the meantime when we see people being stumbled or deeply troubled by something, THEN what is our obligation? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or apply God's counsel to us at 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4: "Praised by the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all out trials so that WE MAY BE ABLE TO COMFORT OTHERS IN ANY SORT OF TRIAL WITH THE COMFORT THAT WE RECEIVE FROM GOD." Some of us have seen and experienced things that would assuredly stumble others (I don't even tell elders or Circuit Overseers because the problem is not whether they would even believe me anyway ((they wouldn't)), but rather, what if they DID believe me? (I wouldn't go around blabbing about this stuff anyway). They would possibly be stumbled - even though they may THINK they have "seen everything." Some of these things are WAY outside the box. Things people wouldn't even think would exist or call to mind as a possibility. That is why those specifics are not being mentioned here. The fact is, none of these things as bad as they may be should stumble anyone - they haven't stumbled us and we have survived. But often what makes these things (although rare) survivable is the kindness, understanding, validation, acceptance and love of those who really have been there. Who can understand and help one make sense of things they thought could never happen because "angels would cull out whatever would stumble anyone." (they misunderstand the import of that verse in Matthew and so have unrealistic expectations of what should happen.) One of Jehovah's provisions to help us, is the support we get from our brotherhood. They can be a personal lifesaver and comfort that you wouldn't normally get from a magazine or public talk 
 

I'm hoping that the purpose of posting isn't just to expose organizational flaws - it isn't in my case anyway. It's not fair for members of a family just to air dirty laundry. It seems apparent that Jay Witness has a bad agenda and as one poster mentioned in effect, we shouldn't believe everything opposers say.  It is more to get us thinking about our own attitudes toward wrongdoing we may face from within the organization. Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging." Question: Is that the example Jehovah set for us? Do you get the impression from reading his Word that in his organization (both heavenly and earthly) nothing bad ever happened? What about Jesus? Did he pretend badness/flaws didn't exist both in Jehovah's organization at the time (the Jews) or even among his followers? Or what about later when the Christian congregation was established...? Or what about the information published by the F&DS today? (i.e. chapter 28 of the Proclaimers Book: Testing and Sifting from Within). Can this all be just "airing dirty laundry?"  But yet, some feel if we consider these realities, it's somehow bad. To be clear: No one is suggesting a steady diet of negative experiences, so why consider them at all? To use your illustration: "...when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches...they don't stop being cockroaches...they just go somewhere else." When is that true? Whenever you look the other way and pretend they don't exist. Usually, when people go to the trouble of shining a light on something it is to do something about it. Otherwise, they just continue to exist - as you have correctly mentioned - and even proliferate. So, of course, we have a scriptural system in place whereby we don't just look the other way when we encounter wrongdoing. We report it and even when justice may take years, decades or even lifetimes, we leave matters in Jehovah's hands since we have fulfilled our personal obligation and not take matters into our own hands.I don't see anyone suggesting a mutiny for the organization to change here. Is that the end of the story though? What about in the meantime when we see people being stumbled or deeply troubled by something, THEN what is our obligation? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or apply God's counsel to us at 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4: "Praised by the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all out trials so that WE MAY BE ABLE TO COMFORT OTHERS IN ANY SORT OF TRIAL WITH THE COMFORT THAT WE RECEIVE FROM GOD." Some of us have seen and experienced things that would assuredly stumble others (I don't even tell elders or Circuit Overseers because the problem is not whether they would even believe me anyway ((they wouldn't)), but rather, what if they DID believe me? (I wouldn't go around blabbing about this stuff anyway). They would possibly be stumbled - even though they may THINK they have "seen everything." Some of these things are WAY outside the box. Things people wouldn't even think would exist or call to mind as a possibility. That is why those specifics are not being mentioned here. The fact is, none of these things as bad as they may be should stumble anyone - they haven't stumbled us and we have survived. But often what makes these things (although rare) survivable is the kindness, understanding, validation, acceptance and love of those who really have been there. Who can understand and help one make sense of things they thought could never happen because "angels would cull out whatever would stumble anyone." (they misunderstand the import of that verse in Matthew and so have unrealistic expectations of what should happen.) One of Jehovah's provisions to help us, is the support we get from our brotherhood. They can be a personal lifesaver and comfort that you wouldn't normally get from a magazine or public talk 
 

Well put and very true. Individuals who are proud, ambitious, want to be adored...do not have the humility to do that work and even when they do, everyone knows about it (whether by title or otherwise. That's where you find members of the "Secret Service.")               Thankfully we have many others - both pioneers and publishers - who are a joy to spend the days with and love being out in the ministry. . 

Not sure why so much time is spent on refuting something based on a questionable premise. It's like arguing whether someone stopped at a red light, when there is no traffic light there to begin with.
The idea for being tormented for all eternity in "hell" presupposes the idea that humans have an immortal soul. Do they? Because if there is no immortal soul, then there is nowhere but the common grave for them to go. (Thats where I usually start anyway when someone brings up this topic). True, some mix "soul" and "spirit" together to come up with some hybrid notion of what a human soul is; or even centuries after the fact invent the unscriptural idea of "resurrection of the body" to answer the thorny question of: "If a person (soul) never really dies, why doe the Bible refer to a resurrection - why would we even need one?
So I think a pertinent question worth asking is: Does the Bible teach that humans have a conscious immortal soul that survives the body after death that automatically floats to heaven or hell - thus making any form of torment even possible? Or does it teach that when you die, that's it - unless you are resurrected back to life?

The Third Clause: ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟϹ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟϹ
Finally, the clause in question. The author writes that Ο ΛΟΓΟϹ (“the word”) ΗΝ (“was”) ΘΕΟϹ. In the second clause, ΘΕΟϹ in the form of the definite, accusative ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ referred to the Father (Yahveh, the creator of heaven and earth). But, Ο ΛΟΓΟϹ could not logically be identical with the Father because the second clause also stated that Ο ΛΟΓΟϹ was “with” the Father. To express a simpler analogy: if David was with Saul, then David cannot be the same person as Saul. Rather, the clause indicates that Ο ΛΟΓΟϹ and ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ (1:1b) are two distinct persons.
 
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/1161/in-john-11c-should-the-greek-word-θεὸς-be-translated-into-english-as-a-god-o
 
 
the example is very simple .... if I was WITH @The Librarian .... I can not be the Librarian myself !!!!
and here we have 2 persons AND NOT 3 .... . 

I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy."  But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness. 
I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact.