James Thomas Rook Jr.

YEAH!

And statistically, they live 8 years longer than men ... what's with THAT?

WHY DO MEN HAVE NIPPLES?

uH .. OR IS IT "NIPPELS"?

“A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once. ..."

Among sane, rational people, the following Meme applies, always.

I remember in the 1960's and 1970's when some Kingdom Halls had a closet with white dress shirts, and visiting speakers would NOT BE ALLOWED to give their talks if they were "inappropriately dressed".  I was called off the platform during a Ministry School assignment because I had a blue shirt under my suit coat, and chastised because I had a mustache.

When Jesus was teaching in the Synagogue, did he have to conform to the dress code of Rabbis, and the sideburns never trimmed, and the long Long, LONG beards they had, in order to be allowed to teach from the "platform"?

I hope someone out there knows Jewish "rules' and customs about "dress codes" in Jesus' time ... he was referred to as "Rabbi".

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Thomas Thom, Thommy Thom Thom ....

I thought Shiwiii had an extremely well reasoned argument that was based in fact, and that further discussing it with you would put your position held in extreme jeopardy, if not ALREADY completely demolished with reason and logic.

I hold a view somewhere in the middle, but because I can see BOTH sides ... it was crystal clear to ME that you have resoundingly LOST THIS DEBATE, and embarrassingly BADLY ... with your infantile debate concession comment ...

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

'Hogwash' is my word, from the second book title. You may not use it.

It will be interesting to see, although I already see the current outcome, and forsee the ultimate outcome, if you decide to continue this exchange using Scripture, reason and logic.

It is embarrassing to see someone cut off their OWN head, to have someone else hand it back to them ... on a platter.

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WOW!

At least you are 100% consistent ... very scary, but somehow reassuring.

Shiwii:

I saw that episode of the Twilight Zone, and it made the same long lasting impression on me ... but I never connected it as you did.  The analogy fits like it was specifically designed for this conversation. I can still remember the entire episode ... except how it ended. I guess I will have to go to YouTube and refresh my memory with your stunning insight and see it again.

Do you remember the name of the episode title?

Although opinions are greatly varied,  I consider Jehovah's Witnesses the only group that I KNOW ABOUT that could be Jehovah's name people, otherwise I would have to be an Agnostic ... and I have seen the good they do is in fact based on rightousness, not just "good for goodness sake."

I suppose I am like the head of the VonTrapp family in the movie "Sound of Music" who loved his homeland and its people, but fled when Hitler took over, and wanted him to serve HIS interests, and not the people of Germany and Austria's Interests.

And I am well aware of the steel mailed hand in the velvet glove ... I have been pounded with it a few times myself ... because they LOVE me. 

Worse ... I have seen OTHERS pounded with "love" ... and crushed.

And I truly believe they really BELIEVE and think they do!, and what they do is kind and just.

That is where I separate the "I", the "we", and the "they"

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Think about this:

When you are reclining ( sitting) at a dining room table bench, you take off your weapons but keep them close by.

When "Jesus said to THEM..." he was talking to ALL the Apostles, as their weapons were not evidently ON THEIR PERSON. Sitting down with a sword is ...um.. problematic, as you can visualize, and it was considered an insult to others to be armed at the dining table as well.

... but here is the clincher ....

NO ONE left the room to sell anything, and Peter produced two swords in seconds.

It took a blacksmith, once he had the metal, about a week of hard labor to make a sword .... NOBODY just "had them laying around", any more than I would deliberately leave an expensive camera OR A .45 CALIBER HANDGUN in a rented dining room.

Upon reflection, Jesus said the two swords were "enough", as they were NOT going to war, merely confronting a cowardly illegal mob who would chill when faced with seeing their own blood, which they did.

Oh... the clincher ... almost forgot...

WHERE DID THE TWO SWORDS COME FROM?

... the Apostles brought them with them to the Passover and the Memorial.

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My informal and sporadic study of ancient cultures, and the ability to understand how power is wielded, and WHY they did the things that they did.

There is ALWAYS a reason.

As a Barbarian myself, I understand how less refined cultures think, when daily life was hard, hungry, and dangerous.

If  a person is banished and no one ever hears from him again, the assumption can be made that the authorities, whoever they are, just took him out in the woods and killed him.  Life moves on, and people one day would say "Who?, never heard of him.".

It is politically MORE IMPORTANT that his sin and punishment be a constant reminder to people not to do what he did to offend the powers-that be, to serve as a constant warning not to cross them.  That is one reason we have prisons today, and punishment for convicted felons that continues until the day they die, LONG after they are released from prison. It costs about $56,000 a year to incarcerate one prisoner for one year ... in the United States. 

It USED to be that him walking around forever stained served as a constant reminder to others not to "goofball the Feds".

Every time the indigenous people get word of how he (or she) is doing, they are reminded of the error, and the punishment and this creates a chilling effect that emphasizes two things ... ONE: That the authority is merciful, and could have killed him, but didn't, giving the illusion or reality of Justice, and TWO: They have the power and authority by virtue of that power to enforce that ... and that it CONTINUES, even many years later, as evidenced by the fact that the person banished has NOT returned, but is still alive, and COULD .. except that he would be killed.

This way the power structure is maintained.

Unlike the Society which has  become world class politicians and legal manipulators, except in Russia, even those in Solitary confinement have communications with Family and Friends, albeit on a limited basis.  Every time Mommy and the Kids go back home, after visitation, this serves as a warning to others when they hear the sad tale.

Shunning, as we do it today, threatens anyone being POLITE and CORDIAL to one being chastised .... WITH THE SAME PUNISHMENT.

IT MAY BE JUSTIFIABLE TO THE CONVICTED TO BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED .. BUT TORTURE IS ONLY TORTURE IF THE INTENT IS TO TORTURE ( .. flamethrowers on Iwo Jima come to mind...) and with disfellowshipping... AS IT IS DONE TODAY... The political INTENT is to TORTURE, by holding families hostage and under the "sword of Damocles", if they do not comply.

This is CRUEL ... this is torture of the innocent as well as the convicted .. and it is EVIL.

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Eoin Joyce:

I have read the two scriptures you posted, and it says NOTHING even similar to the way disfellowshipping and shunning is done today.

When a person was "banished from the realm", he was exiled, but communications with his family was never cut off, nor were THEY threatened with banishment if they continued to talk or correspond with him (or her).  They could even go with him, if they wanted, and come back freely.

Let's say the border was a small river ... he could move to the other side of the river, and his family, extended family, and his friends could go over at will to socialize, have dinner, or help him build a house, or plant fields, etc, and NOT BE THREATENED WITH BANISHMENT.

Banishment consists of forcing a person, under pain of death, to relocate PERSONALLY out of a particular geographic area. 

It does not cruelly punish OR THREATEN TO PUNISH  innocent bystanders who might love him ... or her, with the same treatment.

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WOW!

Your selectively quoting what I said to conform to your agenda is at least 100% consistent.

I am going to always give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it is a severe lack of reading comprehension skills.

Nnaemeka:

The phrase comes to mind, paraphrased ... " ... If a man does not take care of his own, he is worse than a man without the faith."  To me that means spiritual education, food, shelter, secular education, and when necessary DEFENSE.

An incompetent defense is no defense at all, and a MAN is supposed to know the difference.

I almost cried when I read your post, as when I was young I too was an idealist, and I miss the old me .... but I am 70 plus years old and have been all over the world, and seen hundreds of times , and sometimes been a part of the travesty, to my everlasting shame, how people with the very best of intentions  give BAD advice, and wrap it in a sarcophagus of scriptural references that ALMOST apply,  and with honest hearts, and the very best of intentions, ruin people's lives .

Been there ... done that. 

In all my years of watching and carefully noting the affairs of men, in and out of the Brotherhood, I have NEVER, EVER seen Jehovah intervene to protect anyone from evil, and have seen Brothers and Sisters infinitely better Theocrats than I am cut down.

In World War II, and even in Malawi, there is ZERO examples of God rescuing ANY individual person ... except in liberal fantasy not connected with what is REAL.  ZERO real evidence.

Zero ... none ...  nada ... goose eggs.

Apparently this ceased during the times of the Early Christians.

I am NOT going to even try to dissuade you from your faith, because right or wrong, Jehovah gives us full credit for what we do to the best of our ability with the conscience we have at any particular point in time.

Half of your first sentence I will take to heart ... as we all have to live with our conscience.    I am NOT a sheep person. I am a Sheepdog to my bones, and if I am wrong, Jehovah will judge me appropriately ... but I would rather die forever than allow innocent people to be harmed, especially my immediate family, the whole association of the Brotherhood, or even the clueless Snowflake beset upon by evil ... when I consider it my responsibility to protect these people, and myself ... if I can.

I did not exist for 14.5 or so BILLION YEARS, and it bothered me not in the slightest ... If I am not resurrected because of who I am, the Brotherhood will be better off without me.

FAMILY COMES FIRST!

For me, if I shirk this responsibility, I am not a man .... merely a BORG with male plumbing.

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About the fourth or so comment on this thread was mine where I made what I hoped was a ludicrous proposal to explain why one set of conduct was insisted upon by the Society for the African Brothers ... a lesser standard of allowing bribes for Latin American, specifically Mexican Brothers ... and a THIRD standard for Brothers in the United States and Europe, where bribing a public official, and lying about being the the reserve military, would get one disfellowshipped ( but not in Mexico).

My comment several days ago was this:

On 5/28/2017 at 7:13 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

White people are expected to be righteous and cannot do anything illegal, and can navigate the "legal" system.

"Brown" people are expected to be mostly good, and are allowed bribery, as they have trouble navigating the "legal system".

Black people are gullible, and expected not to be able to navigate ANY "legal system", or understand nuances.

If you have a better explanation, I would like to hear it, as my three children being of mixed race, and my having chosen my previous wife partly because of her mixed "brown", and "black" genetics ... I am not happy with the only thing that immediately comes to mind.

PS .( For those in Rio Linda that think I am a racist, I just cut you off at the knees ...)

After a week or so of very enlightening public discussion ... the question of WHY still cannot be answered without resorting to the use of phrases like " we just make this stuff up as we go along", or "gross incompetence".

Again I pose my original challenge ... if you can come up with a better explanation than what I HOPED would be an absurd premise ... I would like to hear your take on this.

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During the time of Jesus' earthly ministry,  disputes and criminal charges were handled in the CITY GATES, so that everyone could see what was going on... and everyone could stand up and make themselves heard by everyone if they had anything to add.  This kept the witnesses honest, as they had no idea who MIGHT stand up and call them a liar, and be able to prove it ... and even MORE importantly, it kept the Judges honest, as if they were stupid, on the take, or railroading someone, it was obvious to all .... and they knew the Jews in the audience could throw rocks at them as well.

Evildoers were ordered to make reparations, or executed.  Juvenile delinquents were counseled and punished with hard labor, and if ineffective, they were stoned to death, and the parents had to throw the first stones. Prisons and jails did not exist, although chains did.

In the Jewish system, for thousands of years, this system worked .... and I have NEVER heard about institutionalized "shunning".  Individual people can "shun" whoever they want ...  this has always been an individual option.

Jesus even talked to and ATE WITH men of the nations, tax collectors and others the Pharisees shunned and looked down on.

If you want to emulate Jesus ... act courteously with ALL people ...

If you want to emulate the Pharisees,  first check the list, then shun, Shun SHUN yourself into an orgasm of self-rightousness.

Can you imagine Jesus treating people with deliberate cruelty like WE are instructed to do?

... and to discipline ONE PERSON, we tear apart entire generations and extended families?

I cannot.

Very simple answer ... find the scripture where it says the "lion will lay down with the lamb", and read it in CONTEXT ... for those in Rio Linda, that means the page before, and the page after.

Among God's people the lion will eat straw, as lambs being eaten scare children ... very messy ... but all animals in their natural environment will eat what they ALWAYS have eaten, and what they were DESIGNED to eat.

All else is a cartoon fantasy that would embarrass Walt Disney.

If you find that incredible, there is a way to test it ... let your lawn grow high, and eat ONLY grass for a week, and see how well YOU do.

You may find yourself online, ordering Purina Lion Chow.

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I have carried weapons all my adult life, and my biggest crime was driving around a barricaded road when I knew the road construction to be completed, and good ( I designed roads for a living for many years...), and I got a ticket that cost $240.

Although my arsenal may scare the timid, I do NOT "live by the sword", and never have.  I even take spiders outside, assuming they are lost, so they do not starve to death.

Peter was being admonished not to GET INTO A BATTLE,  offensively,  and after he demonstrated that he was NOT going to let Jesus be murdered by an illegal night time mob (by cutting off the ear of the slave of the High Priest...) ... WITH THE SWORD HE WAS COMMANDED TO BRING WITH HIM ...  Jesus said the DEMONSTRATION was enough ... an ear cut off bleeds like a faucet turned on.

It has always been common knowledge that I "carry", and so far, to the best of my knowledge, in a half century, it has never stumbled ANYONE, even Elders who asked me about it, and in three different congregations throughout the U.S.A., I was called into "Room 101" before the triumvirate and questioned.

The last time it went something like this ...

"Um... Brother Rook, it has come to our attention that you carry a gun....um... is this true?"

"Yes, it is."

"Um, er... Brother Rook, uh.. are you carrying one now?"

"Yes, I am."

This is where they don't know what to say next ... there  are looks all around, and then after a pause,  they stand up, I stand up, they extend their hands, thank me for my time, and we all go out into the main Hall and go about our business.

When I go into a new Congregation, those elders that don't know I carry a firearm, I hand a prepared letter informing them that I do ... and it has NEVER, anywhere in the USA, created the SLIGHTEST ripple or complaint from ANYONE, in over 50 years. 

I have had elderly Sisters ask me about  security for them, and I always advise them NOT to be armed, as you have to have a certain mindset to use weapons responsibly.  

If you are scared of the responsibility, best to be a victim, than make someone else a victim by your own hand.

When we returned to the KH after Field Service, I did go to the trunk of my car and gave her a child's baseball bat I kept there, and explained how NOT to use it for self-defense ( a whole other story) ...

I agree with the Society's position that Elders, Ministerial Servants, and those in authority should NOT be armed ... I have yet to meet an Elder, etc., that could handle the responsibility necessary, or have the mindset.

I disagree with the rest that creates a mindset of cowardice.

I am un-apologetically NOT a sheep ... I am a Sheepdog, and all that implies.

It's even my job to protect Snowflakes, who think 7 minutes to an armed policeman  is faster than  a 1700fps defense, 30 feet away.

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... and then there is the morally bankrupt position of not allowing a Brother to protect his own life ...or YOURS ... but calling on paid Babylonian Policemen to risk their lives for yours, in mortal combat ... something you are not willing to do for yourself.

To my mind, that is how professional COWARDS think.

Basketweaving?

AllenSmith:

I have noticed that hard facts are worthless to you, but approved agendas seem to be very important, even if they are irrational.

Thank you for calling to my mind many things I had completely forgotten ... I suppose the many years I associated  with people much smarter than me in the Engineering Profession has dulled my senses, to normal human thinking.

The paragraph you quoted CLEARLY states that POLITICIANS ... whose ALLEGIANCE was to Malawi, did all those mean and nasty, reprehensible things ... or did you miss that point?

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Politicians had to open every official speech by praising Banda and affirming his supremacy. He was always to be addressed by his official title, “His Excellency the Life President Dr. Hastings Kamuzu Banda, the Ngwazi.” Any speech that failed to do so could be taken as a sign of disloyalty and could result in dismissal from the party. Schoolchildren were required to regularly express their adulation of Banda, and meetings in nonpolitical contexts often started with words of praise for the leader, while images of the president looked down from the walls of all businesses and offices [p/46]

NOWHERE in your reference is a Party Card addressed.

Nnaemeka:

I think all the Apostles might disagree with you, Nnaemeka, because as Luke 22:36 points out, the APOSTLES BROUGHT THEIR OWN PERSONAL SWORDS TO THE PASSOVER, AND MEMORIAL.

Or do you think that Jesus, after being with the Apostles for somewhere around THREE YEARS, never noticed the swords, and long expensive fishing knives they carried, as did almost all Galilean males?

When is the last time YOU rented a dining room, and over in the corner, were two expensive swords, each made from hand-mined metal and shaped and beaten into an individually hand made AND EXPENSIVE swords by a blacksmith ?

Peter and at LEAST one other Apostle had their personal swords with them .... AT THE MEMORIAL.

Hint: Life is simpler when you use plain old common sense, AND you do not have to use irrelevant to the topic references to support a bogus agenda.

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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The only medications I require these days are Rolaids, which I down by the bottlefull after conversing with certain ones.

Oh, wait. cool it. Someone else is speaking (shut up, TrueTom already, just shut up.)

#helpImtalkingandIcantstop

Sigh ... too late.

What? Run out of meds?

Rolaids are just flavored calcium powder, and too much will ossify the brain.

Symptoms:  People start talking to themselves, and getting answers.

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Tommy Tom Tom Tom Tom ...

If you don't get it ... it cannot be explained to you, even with puppets and crayons, and an infinite amount of time ......

I have the puppets and crayons, but I don't  have an infinite amount of time ...

The only thing I can suggest is that you don't forget your medications.

OH, and if I ever ... If I ever truncate your name, I will be sure to use "True".

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Thomas:

The reason no one saves someone that has fallen overboard, in certain circumstances, is because to stop the ship for a rescue makes that ship EXTREMELY vulnerable to submarine torpedo attack, and EVERYBODY on board knows this.  

Many a merchant marine sailor has learned this the hard way, by falling overboard while transporting cargo across oceans, and having to watch the convoy DELIBERATELY leave him in the middle of the ocean to die.  

WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE CASUALTY RATE FOR BROTHERS AND SISTERS BEING CHASED AWAY?

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Tom, Tom, Tommy Tom Tom ...

Being one of Jehovah's Witnesses was the greatest thing that could have happened to me .. and I marvel that it actually did happen.  No one has ruined my life, at all .... I live a GREAT life, and would not change a thing ... (don't mess with the time stream, if you could, you may end up as a butterfly or Schrodinger's cat ...).

I cry for the Brothers and Sisters who did NOT have the fortitude,  independence, or gumption to resist stupidity, and PubSpeak.

I carry my bags of rocks without complaint ... but there are ones who are loaded down with bad philosophy disguised as the truth from God, and, and have no natural defenses against it .. . and they are broken, crushed,  and chased away  ... THAT infuriates me.    THAT I complain about.

With millions of words, which always BECOME hypnosis ... JW.ORG has become JW.BORG, and I refuse to be assimilated.

besides, ... all those hoses in ones' cheeks have to be cumbersome ...

I am not of the opinion that it is all just a butterfly's bad dream.

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