James Thomas Rook Jr.

Although the Governing Body was FORCED to admit, after the fact, by the Australian Royal Commission on Child Abuse that they were NOT inspired of God ... OR infallible ... until the ARC met and pried that out of Geoffery Jackson, under oath ... the "working theory" was that they WERE inspired of God, and infallible. 

At the very least they are in actual fact TREATED like they are ... even now ..... EVEN BY YOU!

54 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Do you think the WAY Jehovah handled the incident with Abraham and Issac should have been handled in a different WAY?

I mean tying up a "boy" and then holding a knife to him seems like what some would call "Child Abuse". Some would say it was petulant, overreaching, CRUEL and created FEAR!  Was it RIGHT for Jehovah to do that? Why would we think that our Way of doing something is better than God's Way just because it is not according to human norms in todays society, the very society norms under the influence of Satan. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah." Isa. 55:8

Abraham was loved by God so much that they had a special two-way relationship and TALKED TO EACH OTHER DIRECTLY!

If you think the Governing Body has that relationship it would demonstrate one of TWO things ...

(1.) it would prove that Jehovah God is flaky, petulant, cruel, irrational, and that there is no real love or Justice in his principles .. all of which is absurd on the face of it ... or

(2.)that the people claiming to be his "Faithful and Discrete Slave"  are flaky, petulant, cruel and have no real love Or Justice in ITS applied interpretation of core principles.

If you have been keeping up with current events internationally, and have eyes to see, you know that one or the other HAS to be true.

There is no third choice for rationally thinking people.

If I had the same personal relationship with Jehovah God that Abraham had, and I do not ... I also would have had the faith that Jehovah's Justice would prevail, and that slaughtering my son was a righteous thing to do.

When the Governing Body commands that Love and Justice as defined by Jehovah God involves what disfellowshipping has become ... for people that DO love Love and Justice ... that too is absurd on the face of it ... and unfortunately, we here down at the bottom of the theocratic food chain have to sacrifice the sheep to the ones with the power to disfellowship US ALSO, if there is any real discussion, questioning, or demand for accountability.

We too are sheep, and MAY BE NEXT TO BE EATEN.

THERE IS A REASON that Judicial Trials at the Kingdom Halls are held in secret ... and that those charged cannot have tape recorders, stenographers, or friendly Witnesses to observe the goings-on, completely unlike the Judicial System that worked well for thousands of years, where the accused would be tried in the City Gates, where all people could observe, and the Judges, KNOWING that, were restrained by fear of retribution from incensed everyday Jews, to actually act justly.

Back then, the judges were accountable to the general population to actually make Justice happen.

Now, there is no Earthly checks and balances whatsoever on whatever the Governing Body says is the standard ... and because that is true ... the NATURAL result is that is self aggrandizing tyranny ... as is ALWAYS the case among the affairs of men, when there is no restraint of power.

There has never been any exceptions in the history of the world, and there are none now.

With my own eyes I have seen the cruelty and injustice of punishing whole families for one person's transgressions, and the shedding of crocodile tears, and seeing people beat down with a metal fist in a feathered silk glove, with soothing words, and a LOT of them.

So don't pull this "Abraham" crap on me .... they are two entirely different scenarios ..... except for those who bent it into a pretzel to support their cruelty, power, position and status.

The Governing Body cannot be criticized, or FIRED for screwing up peoples' lives ... they are accountable to NO ONE on this Earth.

.If I personally screw up my life, I personally am responsible, and I personally have to pay the price the Universe always demands.

If the Governing body screws up my life to sustain it's position of power and authority ... NO ONE is responsible.

They NEVER apologize for ANYTHING!

Sure sounds like Dragons to me.... (?)

Trinity This... Trinity that... John said this.. John said that .. blahahahahaaa ...

If you want to know what the Apostle John knew and said in Revelation it's VERY simple... in LESS than  the FIRST 11 words!

In vision he saw BOTH God and Jesus in Heaven, and they were not  joined at the hip !

Be a sport ... look it up ..... Revelation 1:1 .... shows that GOD and Jesus are NOT the same. They at this time are BOTH in Heaven, and  GOD... IS NOT JESUS.

AAAAnd ... Revelation 1:1 is SOooo easy to remember.

New Living Translation
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John,

English Standard Version
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Berean Study Bible
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,

Berean Literal Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John,

New American Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

King James Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must quickly take place. He sent it and signified it through His angel to His slave John,

International Standard Version
This is the revelation of Jesus the Messiah, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He made it known by sending his messenger to his servant John,

NET Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,

New Heart English Bible
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. God gave it to him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He sent this revelation through his angel to his servant John.

New American Standard 1977
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Jubilee Bible 2000
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his slaves things which are convenient to do quickly, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his slave John,

King James 2000 Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and revealed it by his angel unto his servant John:

American King James Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:

American Standard Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,

Darby Bible Translation
Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified [it], sending by his angel, to his bondman John,

English Revised Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Webster's Bible Translation
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:

Weymouth New Testament
The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.

World English Bible
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,

Young's Literal Translation
A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

.

And don't forget the Doody Trinity ... Gay Tootie-Fruity Doody, Overweight Heavy Doody, and... um.. seems the last one DOESN'T HAVE A NAME ... just like Christendom's Trinity.

5 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

And you don't even have to get that complicated. Gen.2:24 describes the closest human relationship between two persons possible saying "they will become one flesh",  but surely, no one understands this as meaning they will become one person.....or do they???

That is the one example that PROVES that you have to understand idiomatic expressions of the time, otherwise one may draw the conclusion that cannibalism has occurred.

...and ARGUE FOR IT!

.

sigh .....

I am trying to imagine what instant in time that the Apostle Paul was walking down a dirt road in the hot sun, and being well versed in Jewish History and the Law of God .. which he knew would call for his death by stoning, for preaching about a 3-in-1 god, stopped in revelation and against everything the Jews had learned for thousands of years, facepalmed his forehead, and realized that Jesus was praying to HIMSELF those nights  ... and it finally came to me, boys and girls, what time it was ....

It was HOWDY DOODY TIME!

( Apologies to those less than 65 years of age who may not get the reference ...)

.

Nicola ( and /or "Guest", as the case may be ...) :

Your posts are as vague as the morning fog.

What taunts?

What Sisters?

What bullying?

As far as why the Elders asked me that question I do not remember the details of why?  They may have had indigestion.

When you reply to my three questions above... please be SPECIFIC and  VERY Detailed.

I have learned that "Snowflakes" melt at the slightest friction or conversations that adults have.

You can be honest, direct, and forceful with solid people of integrity ... and everybody benefits. ... but Snowflakes need to be pandered to, in soothing dolcet tones.

It ain't me Babe.... It ain't me your lookin' for.

Babe.

...and since you addressed my father, who is dead .... please use JTR .. it's simpler.

.

Explanation of the attempted humor:

I am a big fan of The Muppets .... Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, Ralph the Dog, and Fozzie Bear, etc.... the joke teller of the Muppets.  His voice and animation is done by a man namned Frank Oz. Frank Oz ALSO does the voice for the Star Wars character YODA. YODA speaks in a reverse syntax much like a Shakespeare Play ... but if you close your eyes while watching YODA speak, the voice, except for sentence structure ... is EXACTLY that of the Muppet ... Fozzie Bear.

I once knew a sad little Lizard that INSISTED it was derived from a Tyrannosaurus Rex ( ... on it's mother's side...). Lizards are rather sad little creatures, and I did not argue with him or her, as the case may be .... It made the little Lizard HAPPY to believe it had that ancestry ... in a world in which reptile happiness is in short supply.

... apologies to RAH, and Lazarus Long ...

.

Somehow, when I close my eyes, I hear the voice of Fozzie Bear !

.....  except the bottom three shelves, which will collect dust, dog hair, visiting rodents and spiders.  The three lower shelves are only practical if the books are painted on.

..... And people with less than perfect vision will have to sit down to read the titles.

 .

I never gave it any thought at all!

My thoughts are highly compartmentalized, by design.

Several years ago I was surrounded in the Kingdom Hall aisleway after a meeting by three Elders who demanded to know what I thought of the Governing Body.

Without thinking I blurted out "I never think of them at all !"

There were no follow up questions.

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Anna:

You will have to give Nicola some slack ... although 50 years old, she is still very young, and has not learned how hard it is, or why you HAVE to do homework, or that the Bible does not have a theme, thread, chapter or verse on motorcycle maintenance.

.I would pat myself on the back for that inspired philosophical gem, but I would need both elbows on the same arm, and with the other arm, point it out.

TTH:

I am not average.... I started out way below average and was considered mentally "challenged" until High School. I repeated the 12th grade, just barely graduating High School.

Before I retired I was well pleased with the skills I had accumulated in wide areas of human endeavor.

I have DAILY worked very hard to overcome the handicaps I was born with, and I have been around people that make the best I can do seem like a childrens' exercise with crayons. I know EXACTLY where I fit on the intelligence and human bell curve, and do not wallow in false humility. to be politically correct. 

... and AvP .......

MOOOOOO !

.

When someone TRUSTS you .. it is criminal to lie to them .... but most people  convince themselves of the lie first as a matter of political survival.

It is no crime for anyone, or any authoritative   Governing Body, to honestly say about any topic ...

"I don't have the slightest clue ... I do NOT know the answer".

How simple life could be for ALL of us if this basic premise were common.

.

55 minutes ago, AveragePub said:

I really do not care what a former member has to say.

That is what makes average people, average people.

In the July 7, 1879 "Zion's Watch Tower" Charles Taze Russell was making life miserable for the Clergy of his day, and was the subject of malice, slander, envy, hatred and contention, as a former member of Christendom who the Clergy  characterized  as Satan, himself..

In an article "What is Truth" of that issue he stated  " A truth presented by Satan himself is JUST AS TRUE as a truth stated by God.".

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"

This question is one which every sincere Christian should 
ask and seek to answer. We 
should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to 
respect and honor it by owning 
and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever 
presented. A truth 
presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth 
stated by God. 

Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact 
than the Christian. How 
often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth 
presented by their opponents. 
This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. 
They feel at perfect liberty to 
dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not 
the correct principle. Many 
infidels are honest— as anxious to speak and believe the 
truth as are Christians— and if in 
converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, 
we not only fail to 
convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of 
reaching them; for our failure 
to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them 
contempt for the one who 
is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not 
see how it can be reconciled 
to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what 
it contradicts, 
and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others 
upon "The Spirit of truth, 
which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised. 

Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, 
is surrounded and almost 
choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. 
If you would find it you must be 
ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must
brush aside the weeds of error 
and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must 
stoop to get it. 

Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been 
sufficient there would have been 
no more. Gather ever, seek for more. 

Weave them together as a garland —"Bind them on thee as a 
bride doeth." "Bind them 
about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
 so shalt thou find favor and 
good understanding in the sight of God and man." Prov. 3:3. 

C.T.R. 

=========================================================

Or as Gene Hackman playing Lex Luthor in the first Superman movie, circa 1979 said ....

" Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."

Is there  button I must press to see the pictures of the inside of the theater?

In Haiti, even today .. the population is 85% Catholic, and believe in the Trinity, as an institution (individual results may vary ...) AND 85% or so of THAT group also practice Voodoo and worship their ancestors, and practice "magic".   The Church allows this.

During the Nicene Council, where assembled Catholic Bishops from all over the Roman Empire were assembled, by Emperor Constantine ..worshipper of the Sun .. a member of the cult of "Sol Invictus" and Mithras, the god of Tradesmen and warriors, until his death ... the controversy  even inspired fist-fights on the floor of the meeting place ... but Constantine, who was a comsumate politician, who thought Jesus was a FINE way to consolidate his Empire with a pacifistic god... ORDERED the Council, for political reasons, to adopt the concept of the Trinity.

As you can imagine... Roman Emperors had for a long time promulgated the very politically helpful idea that THEY could be both god and man at the same time ... and by commanding the doctrine of the Trinity, this would show the rubes that this idea had theological backing.

Divine right of Kings ......

The Bishops STILL bore the scars of the terrible persecutions ... and NOW .. they were the favorite religion of the Roman Emperor himself... WOW!  Constantine gave them privilege, power, money, and land ... and military protection.

I could go on for a hundred pages about this ... but OF COURSE, the "early Christians" ( a mislabeling..), or at least those officially honored by the Roman Empire ... believed in the Trinity. It was treason against the expressed will of Constantine to believe otherwise, and political suicide.

.To have a "Universal" Church .. you have to adopt EVERYTHING pagan, and rename it to appear holy ... like whitewashing a grave .. filled with bones and corruption.

Trinities were around a LONG time ( Egypt, Babylon, India, etc.) before Christendom adopted them.

3 hours ago, Nicola said:

  I am surprised you would defend someone for saying that we are wrong for disfellowshipping,

The young and inexperienced are very often surprised ... that fades away as you get older and nothing except a head on car collision surprises you.

In 1980 I had a drunk hit me head on ... destroyed both cars ... THAT surprised me!  I had about 3/4 of a second to put an iron grip on the steering wheel, and tuck my head and close my eyes so I would not get glass in them. When I woke up it was feeling my hand on the door handle trying to open the door, so even unconscious, I was trying to get out of the car, as there was hot radiator fluid and gas all about, with broken glass.

I was not the slightest bit upset, though ... as STUFF HAPPENS .. in fact I was THRILLED that I had no blood or bones showing through, and that I was still alive.

Interactions with humans are like that .... head on collisions, that MIGHT have killed you ... think ahead so correct responses are AUTOMATIC.

Disfelowshipping was not practiced institutionally in the early Christian Congregation ... not the way it's done today ... to discipline ONE PERSON we destroy his entire family relationships ... aunts, uncles, nieces, parents, children, grandparents, friends. etc.   This is something INDIVIDUALS are charged with.

It's just like if you were my employee ... I can severely restrict your freedom of speech as I see fit .. or fire you ...but when I cut off all your friends after work, and interaction with relatives ... that is EVIL.

This is why Jehovah's Witnesses, who are in fact God's people ... have the highest "churn rate" of any religion in America .... people here as a general rule recognize tyranny when they see it ... not tyranny like being marched to a mass grave and shot in the back of the head .. but petty tyranny is still tyranny.

All Societies evolve in cycles ... and we are no exception.  This is NOT NEW.

No surprises here.

.

Nicola:

The EASIEST way to "quit", is quit coming here.. just stop .. anyone that quits will be like the hole left in a bucket of water when you pull your hand out..

This is an open forum clearly labeled as being an "Arena of Ideas" ... and sometimes the sand runs red with the blood and gore of bad ideas, and even the winners of the thought experiments get seriously bloodied.... this is the way it SHOULD be among adults.

Political correctness is what in a previous generation used to be called craven cowardice.

My Dad, whose "real religion" was the United States Navy, once told me in lamentation that in the "old days", ships were made of wood, and the men were made of steel ... but today, the ships are made of steel, and the men are made of wood.

Iron sharpens iron, but you WILL get "bloodied" and sometimes have skin torn off ... but if you want a knife edge intellect, and comprehensive discernment, and STRENGTH ... that is the price that the Universe demands. 

There is NO OTHER WAY.

Iron sharpens iron ... soft soap sharpens NOTHING ... and those who ALLOW their feelings to be hurt by words universally become "Snowflakes", who are melted at the slightest friction.

Like the Eagles sang about standing on a corner, in Winslow, Arizona ( .. what a fine sight to see ... ) ... don't let the sounds of your own wheels .. drive you CRAZY.

.

3 hours ago, Micael Frost said:

Would we reason the same way if it was a question of for example murder? "No we can not be sure, so we don't report it to the authorities". Of course not!

AMEN!

If you think about the PRINCIPLES behind policy, it is immediately OBVIOUS to most educated people  that current WTB&TS policy is first and foremost ... SELF SERVING.

NOT in the best interest of Justice .... but that is beating a very dead, rotted horse. Examples are Legion.

I have been waiting for someone to verbalize and write this very thing, so I, who am as diplomatic as a runaway chain-saw, would not have to.

The essence of EVERYTHING is summed up in Michael Frost's single . two line paragraph..

.

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

*** w62 5/15 p. 320 Questions From Readers ***
● Is there any objection to a dedicated Christian minister’s belonging to a nudist group or living at a nudist camp or resort?—M. D., United States.

Actually the answer is VERY simple ....Jehovah God made Adam and Eve and thought it was perfectly OK to walk around naked..... It was Adam and Eve deciding FOR THEMSELVES THAT THEY WERE NAKED ... and took upon themselves opinions and doctrines that Jehovah God NEVER even suggested.  Had they not sinned by choosing THEIR standards over GOD'S standards, the logical extrapolation of that is that all their children would have walked around naked WITH them.

Being a taboo is NOT from God.... it is from self-made cultural taboos. 

The list of them would fill up a large city telephone book ... if they make those, anymore.

It's morally wrong to try and enslave someone else to error .... and pathetically morally wrong to ENSLAVE OURSELVES!

That having been said ... and it is VERY true ... the last time I was in the hospital for four days, I refused to wear that silly open back gown, and wore Levis and a long sleeve shirt the whole time. ... you know ... in case Mars Attacks!

Adam and Eve chose for THEMSELVES what was "the knowledge of good and evil" and "cultural taboos were born, abandoning Jehovah's knowledge of good and evil ... which in this case, he cared NOTHING about.

Sorta like the current non-biblical shunning policy, the way it is currently practiced.

I will be civil and polite, and generous with ANYONE who is civil, polite, and generous to me ... but I am keeping the Levis.

.

.

.

I have a substantial portion of the Original "Burning Bush" which I use to heat my home in winter, and bar-b-que in summer ... better than solar panels... AND ... IT TALKS!

.

...and now for something completely different ....