14 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

As you should know, Jehovah's witnesses have the following extremely useful qualities for us:

Except for military service and work for military purposes, i.?. to use it, as they say "destructive" activities, Jehovah's witnesses are extremely opposed to the Jews, against the Catholic Church and the Pope.

 No wonder Himmler admired them.

14 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

http://www.kistine.ru/sects/iegova_witness/iegova_witness_himmler-02.htm

This is a website all about Latin aphorisms, weirdly. It doesn't contain a reproduction of Himmler's letter.

15 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Rainer Albertz does conform to traditional Chronology or timeline except that he begins the Exie or Exilic Era from the destruction of Jerusalem in 587/586 BCE, rather than an earlier date.

... and finishes it in 520 BCE, while acknowledging that "it is difficult to delimit the exilic period historically" and there were "substantial deportations" from earlier times (p. 2). This doesn't help your defense of WT's chronology, Neil. Why bring it up?

14 hours ago, scholar JW said:

It is impossible to begin the 70 years of nation's servitude in 609 BCE because nothing of any historical significance occurred in that year.

Perhaps you need to re-read my earlier post that evidences the opposite.

14 hours ago, scholar JW said:

At that time it is historically incorrect to speak of any Babylonish domination at that time for the major player in the Region was Egypt and remained a dominant player until the Battle at Carchemish some four years later.

ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21
"Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times."

14 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Further, nowhere does the OT refer to the expression of '70 years of nation's servitude' for it seems you are conflating this with the seventy years of Jeremiah'.

Jer. 25:11 - "'And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.'"

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The scheme of WT chronology.is a valid presentation of all of the evidence and can be tested and has been subject to scholarly inquiry over many decades but recent research has proven its validity such as in the case of Furuli's research into VAT 4956 amongst other things.

You don't know whether Furuli's 'research' is valid or not. You've not checked.
 

@scholar JW

Neil, as I said, you and I have had these discussions numerous times. Your objections have been countered and rebutted each time. Rainer Albertz agrees with the conventional timeline (see his table on p. xxi) and you already know what I'm going to say about you selecting one of Josephus' figures over the other one he gives.

23 hours ago, Anna said:

One thing I wouldn't mind having explained first is the for/at Babylon thing. If this was for Babylon, then some sources suggest this meant the the period of the Babylonian empire, but according to Wikipedia: The Neo-Babylonian Empire  began in 626 BC and ended in 539 BC”

In 626 BCE, Nabopolassar (Nebuchadnezzar's father) took the Babylonian throne from the Assyrian ruler, Sin-šarra-iškun. Yes, Nabop. began a new era of Babylonian rule BUT he didn't gain hegemony over parts of Babylonia and the predominant power Assyria for some years. There were some Babylonian cities/states that were still loyal to Assyria - it was, politically, a messy time with each side trying to wrest control from the other, bringing in support from other sympathetic nations. Eventually, Nabop. prevailed and, with the help of the Medes, trashed Assyria's capital Nineveh in 612 BCE. Aššur-uballit (the new Assyrian king) went west and made Harran the new Assyrian capital. Long story short, Nabop. conquered Harran in 610/609 BCE and took its spoils. Aššur-uballit tried to take it back a few months later in the summer of 609 BCE but failed. The Assyrian kingdom was finished.

So, if one wants to take the 70 years' period of nations' servitude literally (rather than as a rounded or figurative number), one could reasonably argue that Babylonian domination over the nations began in 609 BCE and ended with the Persian conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE.

The point about how long the exiles were 'at Babylon' is that Jeremiah's letter at Jer. 29 is specifically addressed to the vast number of Jews who had been deported in 597 BCE with King Jehoiachin and the royal family (the second recorded siege of Jerusalem in the Bible - the first one, of course, being the one mentioned at Dan. 1:1). Jer. 29:10 says that when the 70 year period was completed, God would turn his attention to these exiles and make good on his promise to bring them back home ... only, if we use WT time, those exiles would have been taken in 617 BCE. So, assuming a 537 BCE return (just for the sake of argument), it would mean the majority of the total number of exiles (from all the deportations) would be 'at Babylon' for 80 - not 70 - years. It doesn't fit.

7 hours ago, scholar JW said:

However, it does not matter because the above interpretation of the 70 years as outlined above can accommodate either of these two meanings.

The JW interpretation can't accommodate either meaning because, if it was "at Babylon," the context demands that the exiles Jeremiah was addressing would have been there 80 years - not 70, and the destruction of Jerusalem was still only a future possibility rather than a foregone conclusion. Anyway, we've had this conversation many times before - the scriptural and historical facts speak for themselves and you *still* won't change your views to align with them. Hope you and yours are well, btw.  

Who were the Magi?

The Greek word "Magoi" in Matthew 2:1-12 is transliterated into English as "Magi" or translated as "wise men". We cannot know for certain exactly who these Magoi were. In recent years people have often simply thought of them as coming from a religious sect that emphasized astrology.

However, let's see what else is known about them. Matthew 2:1 says the Magoi came from the east. Most of the world east of Israel all the way to India was controlled by Parthia from 247 B.C. to A.D. 228. This area would be areas now in present-day Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan. At times they even controlled parts of today's Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, and Israel. The people of India and China had regular trade with the Parthians.

To better understand who the Magoi (Magi) were, let's see what we can learn about them from the Bible. We'll go back to when Nebuchadnezzar of the Babylonians had come to Israel and beseiged Jerusalem. The Old Testament book of Daniel begins with Daniel being taken to Babylon. The Magoi appear prominently in the book of Daniel, where Daniel himself is named as Rab-mag, the chief of the Magoi (Daniel 4:9, 5:11). Daniel 2:48 says that Daniel, as chief of the Magoi, was ruler of the entire province of Babylon. These Magoi obviously were powerful men in the very powerful Babylonian and Persian empires. We can see one instance of a power struggle taking place between some of the Magoi in Daniel chapter 6, where God supernaturally steps in to rescue Daniel from the lions' den. Later this same land area came to be ruled by the Parthians.

The Magoi were still influential in Parthia. The Parthian empire was ruled by kings. But there was also a governing body, the Megistanes, which means "the great ones" or "lords". The Megistanes consisted of the Sophoi and the Magoi (or Sophi and Magi). It is very interesting to note that the Magoi were responsible for choosing the kings of the great Parthian empire. They had an unusual amount of power and control for an eastern monarchy in which they were not the absolute kings. In fact, there is a sense they were like kings or lords in terms of power. Little wonder that some of the words or songs written about them over the centuries has referred to them as "kings". Their power was in fact only exceeded by the absolute kings themselves.

Hey wait a minute now! The Magoi are not sounding like three guys on camels that ride quietly into Bethlehem like the story is told in American churches. Notice in the passage in Matthew that there is no mention of the number of Magoi that come to worship Jesus. There are only three kinds of gifts mentioned.

What is known of the Magoi makes them seem like they would have come thundering into the area of Jerusalem on Arabian stallions accompanied by some tough-looking dudes carrying serious weaponry. Their cavalry was known for defeating the Roman army. There could have been scores or hundreds of people accompanying them. Many people have said that the Magi came with a small army. Some think that the normal garrison of Roman soldiers that usually occupied Israel was off fighting the Homonadensian War, leaving them unprotected.

Also, do not overlook the fact that the Magoi had the authority to choose someone as king over the Parthian empire, which was every bit an equal to the Roman empire. It's little wonder that when the Magoi showed up asking about a king, Matthew 2:3 says "When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him." Three ordinary astrologists strolling into Jerusalem on camels would not even disturb King Herod's lowest bodyguard, much less the whole city of Jerusalem. But the arrival of these guys freaked everybody out in Jerusalem!

[...]

What was the Christmas Star?

The following sentence helps us a lot. The star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. Well, that certainly makes this light seem to be very unique. The phrase until it stopped over the place where the child was tells us that not only could it move, but it could also stop or appear to stop in a way and a situation that would make the Magoi know where Jesus was.

Whoa! It now appears to be right over the place where Jesus was. They did not have to wander around town asking. You get the idea that it really is almost like a beam of light shining down like a spotlight on Joseph's house, or at some point draws so near to the earth that it appears to hover over that exact house. The closer they get to Jesus, the less this thing seems like a celestial body.

At first it was like a star in the eastern sky. Then it takes on the character of a moving, leading light. Then it takes on the character of either a spotlight shining down on Jesus or something like a hovering light over Jesus. And apparently, no one else can see it. Or if they can see it, they do not understand what they are seeing. There had been no discussion with Herod, regarding the star. In other words, Herod and his star-gazers did not say "Oh, yeah, we saw that too." As said before, a good name for this light would be "the Star of the Magi", instead of the Star of Bethlehem.

It is not necessary to try to make the Christmas star be a celestial body of natural origin. It is entirely possible that it was supernatural from start to finish. Or it could have been that the first sighting was natural, (like the aligning of planets,) and later the light was supernatural, something like what appeared to the shepherds on the night of the birth of Jesus. Luke 2:9 says when the angels appeared to the shepherds the glory of the Lord shone around them. The "glory of the Lord" appears many times in the Old Testament as a moving, lighted cloud that manifests the Presence of God. We know with absolute certainty that the Lord was displaying His Presence this way around the time of the birth of Jesus.

However, the text does not say that the "glory of the Lord" appeared and led them. Usually the Bible tells specifically when the Lord appears in a cloud. So it's hard to label this light as the shekinah glory of the Lord, based on the text alone. Nevertheless, this would not prevent God from causing a unique light to be displayed, in order to direct the Magoi to Jesus.

Our belief is that the behavior of the light is hard to match up with any natural phenomenon. We deduce that this light was not a planet or planets, nor any other celestial body, but a special light given as a sign to the Magoi. Since the Magoi would certainly, at the very least, talk about it to a lot of people upon their return to their powerful positions in Parthia, we can also see how the Lord used this as revelation to Asia. In addition their gifts could easily have funded the safe passage of Joseph's family to Egypt and back again in a few years.
 

http://www.christmaspirit.com/christmasstar.htm

A couple of other Scripture- and historically-based perspectives:

Quote

Summary

In this scenario, then, the wise men reached Bethlehem about two years after the birth of Jesus. Jesus, Mary and Joseph were now in a house, not the stable. There could have been any number of wise men, and they were probably representatives of the wise men of Babylon. They were aware of the promised Messiah from their former leader, Daniel, and from the oracle of their founder, Balaam. Under Daniel’s leadership and influence, many of them had no doubt turned from their paganism to the worship of the true God. They were unaware, however, that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, because Micah’s prophecy was received many years later and many miles away, back in Israel. Their intention was to seek the Messiah, in order to worship Him. They knew to make their journey because of an appearance of the Shechinah glory of God. This same pillar of fire led them from Jerusalem to the house in Bethlehem. Herod’s response was to seek to destroy the Messiah by any means possible.

Put into this context, we can see that the events of Matthew 2 are even more significant than the traditional Christmas card scene. And in worshiping the Messiah, the wise men made a prophecy of their own in their choice of gifts.

Gold: A gift for a king.
Frankincense: This is obviously an incense, the burning of which represents prayer. It is used by priests, and indicates the priestly nature of the Messiah.
Myrrh: A fragrant perfume, used in embalming bodies. The inclusion of this gift can be seen as prophetic of the death of the Messiah. The three gifts together also underline the Messiah’s offices as prophet, priest and king.

Our response should therefore be that of the wise men themselves: to worship the Messiah, Jesus Christ — our Prophet, Priest and King.

 

Read the full article here: http://creationtoday.org/the-wise-men-and-the-star/

Quote

What Does All this Mean?

Why does Matthew include the story of the wise men in his Gospel? There were many incidents that he chose to exclude that we find, for example, in Luke's and John's gospels. I see in this account several themes:

1. The King Heralded by a Star. Matthew points to the fulfillment (without saying so) of Balaam's ancient prophecy that "A star will come forth from Jacob, and a scepter will rise from Israel" (Numbers 24:17).
2. The King Honored by Foreign Nations. One of Matthew's themes is that Christ fulfilled Old Testament prophecy. Here the prophecy isn't cited, but only alluded to: that of foreign rulers bringing their riches to honor the King of Israel (1 Kings 10:2, 10; Psalm 72:10-11, 15; Isaiah 60:5-6, 11). This account points to Jesus' royalty as King of the Jews.
3. Enemies of Christ Seek His Death. Here in chapter 2 is the beginning of Jesus' enemies. Herod clearly covets Jesus' claim to be Messiah and seeks to kill him before he can become a threat. Later in Matthew's gospel the "chief priests and teachers of the law" who pointed to his birthplace in Bethlehem conspire to take his life. And ultimately he is crucified for this very charge of being King of the Jews (Matthew 27:11, 37; John 18:33-37; 19:19-22).
4. Explanation of Jesus' Infant Sojourns. From Nazareth to Bethlehem, from Bethlehem to Egypt, and then back to Nazareth where he was raised -- Jesus' journeys as an infant needed an explanation in the face of Jewish belittling him as a citizen of Nazareth (John 1:45-46), not from the royal city of Bethlehem.
5. The Gospel to the Gentiles. This account also points to another important theme -- that Jesus came to the Jews, but had a mission beyond Israel to the Gentiles (Genesis 12:3; 22:18; 28:14; 49:10; Psalm 22:27; 98:3; Isaiah 49:6; 66:19) In parable (Matthew 21:33-44; 22:2-13), action (Matthew 8:5-13), prophecy (Matthew 24:14), and command (Matthew 28:19; Acts 1:8), Jesus underscores that the gospel must be preached to -- and will be embraced by -- the Gentiles.

Full article at http://www.jesuswalk.com/christmas-incarnation/magi-star.htm

Note: It is not generally considered that the 'star' came from Satan - this is reading into scripture an idea that isn't even hinted at. The Magi had only good intentions, and their gifts would have enabled Jesus and his family to flee to and live in Egypt until it was safe to return home.

Quote

 

Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs 

Colin Humphreys Graeme Waddington

Astronomy & Geophysics, Volume 58, Issue 5, 1 October 2017, Pages 5.39–5.42,https://doi.org/10.1093/astrogeo/atx178

Published:

 

01 October 2017

 

Colin J Humphreys and W Graeme Waddington report on the oldest recorded solar eclipse, a biblical reference which may be used to date precisely the reign of Ramesses the Great.

Issue Section:

 Features

A puzzling event in The Bible that mentions both the Moon and the Sun can be interpreted as describing a solar eclipse. We have dated it to 30 October 1207 BC, making it possibly the oldest datable solar eclipse recorded. This enables us to refine the dates of certain Egyptian pharaohs, including Ramesses the Great. It also suggests that the expressions currently used for calculating changes in the Earth's rate of rotation can be reliably extended back 500 years, from 700 BC to 1200 BC. ...

 

7 hours ago, Kay Hasdorff said:

This will be the last year for yearbooks.

End of a long era. Yearbooks have been produced for about 90 years!

But seeing as personal experiences and regional JW news stories are video presentations now, I guess it makes the Yearbooks redundant.

Wasn't there mention of there now being a retirement home for old and infirm Bethelites at Warwick?

And a discarded understanding has been brought back about the 'vindication of God's name' - it's OK to use that term again.

That whole letter-writing campaign to influence Putin and his government to intervene and halt the ban on JWs in Russia ... what was that? Wasn't that political lobbying? Wasn't that meddling in political affairs?

The funny thing is, old publications are JWs' worst enemy! Where do they think many of the dangerous 'apostate' ideas come from?

I also wonder how long this resource and the associated youtube channel will last before a copyright infringement 'cease and desist' order from Watchtower is slapped on them. Hm, let's wait and see ...

To add: I hope it lasts - it is a useful site - especially with all that is being discontinued at the moment.

On 10/1/2017 at 6:32 PM, Bible Speaks said:

@Ann O'Maly

You mean come to the "light side"? 

I didn't specify who was inviting whom!

This is begging to be captioned. I'll start with a predictable one:

"Come to the daaaark side."

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Besides, @James Thomas Rook Jr., don't think I don't know about your alter-ego. You are also using multiple accounts. You can't hide it from me. 

You are @Witness and @Ann O'Maly. besides JTR. Don't tell me otherwise. 

Your style gives you away.

Suuure. Three persons in one being: JTR the Father, Witness the Begotten, and Ann the Sarcastic.

So glad you have posted again, @ImStrugglingBad.

6 hours ago, ImStrugglingBad said:

That's why I wonder whether death is a better option. Because I feel that maybe, just maybe, the death will cover over the sin of my existence. And if not, Jehovah can forget me.

Doesn't this make Jesus' sacrifice redundant? Your death isn't the answer. According to the Christian gospel, it is Jesus' sacrificial blood and one's faith in that that covers over your (and everybody else's) sins.

Romans 3:22-24

"... yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8

"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift."

Notice the tenses used here: "are being saved" and "have been saved." Jesus has done it for you already. Your death accomplishes nothing. And your existence isn't a sin. It has worth; you have as much entitlement to exist as the rest of us.

Have you explored those links? How do you feel about them? Respond privately if you prefer.

2 hours ago, Birdie said:

Thanks Ann. I agree, some JW LBGT sites only encourage ones away.

? I don't think I said that.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Those that do not understand substitution think what I made was a flippant comment ... I assure you... it was as serious as a heart attack. 

That you were serious makes it worse, JTR.

2 hours ago, Birdie said:

The sites suggested above by Ann are only interested in getting you away from the organization.

The jwhc site, as far as I can tell, is a pro-JW one. (Or do you have first-hand knowledge to the contrary?) That's why I suggested it for the OP and avoided giving links to the many online ex-jw LGBT+ support groups available.

The national helpline sites are there for all, regardless of a person's belief system.

The jwfacts link was there because it gave a gay JW's personal experience.

I hope @ImStrugglingBad checks back soon so that we know he's OK.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Wow! There are a lot of educated people today.

How's that world going that they have collectively built?

https://singularityhub.com/2016/06/27/why-the-world-is-better-than-you-think-in-10-powerful-charts/

I'm very sorry you are going through this, @ImStrugglingBad, but please be assured you are not alone. I'm also very sorry about the close friends you've lost. But I'm glad you have had some understanding and support from the congregation - not everyone gets that.

It's worrying that the stress and depression has reached levels so that you want to self-harm. Please, please contact a suicide prevention helpline if you are getting these urges.

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/help-yourself/lgbtq/

http://oneloveallequal.org/2016/08/24/self-harm-hotlines/

As I said, you are not alone. You might like to read stories of those who have been struggling as you have.

http://www.jwhc.info/a-personal-story.php -This site has a private forum where you may find support from fellow gay JWs. I don't know the quality or vibe of the forum,  so you'll have to figure out for yourself whether it's a healthy and comfortable place to be.

There's also this person's experience you might like to read: http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/gay-jw-hardship.php

You are valuable, wanted, and loved. There will be a way through this. Please hang in there. (((Internet hugs)))

12 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

... there isn't enough information, "unrighteous" can just mean a person without faith.

It could. But the original accusation was that he was 'wasteful' (compare Luke 15:13). Mismanaging your master's assets is also 'unrighteous' and there are a few parables in the Gospels about negligent servants.

Definitely not  a Watchtower image. Evangelical or SDA.

 

The Saturday Review, Sept. 17, 1859, p. 340 [paragraphs added for ease of reading]:

"We should not have thought it worth while to notice Mr. Hislop's lucubrations if his book had not reached a second edition, and thus revealed the melancholy intellectual condition of a portion at least of the British public. For the sake of this class of readers, it may perhaps not be amiss to state gravely why we dissent from his line of argument.

"In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it.

"Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

"Thirdly, Mr. Hislop's reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted, as if by the touch of Harlequin's wand, into something totally different.

"Fourthly, Mr. Hislop's argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system. ...

"... But it is idle to speak seriously of a book which only claims attention by its matchless absurdity, and by the fact that it apparently finds readers. We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable."

Link to full review - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ob9LAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=hislop&f=false

What is happening to my eyes?

You missed a golden opportunity to lob a comeback insult at my expense, there, @James Thomas Rook Jr.