Anna

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

I had received regular "informal" return visits with two sisters a few years before seeing the book and had been given a JW Bible. Also, I always respected the way JW's knew and used the Bible so thoroughly. And, as I said earlier, I KNEW that the TRUTH would be found IN the Bible [because I had ALWAYS believed that the Bible was truly God's Word and not man's.] So, when I saw that the JW's actually had a book that taught what the Bible REALLY teaches, I started to study. As I started learning what the Bible REALLY says, I quickly learned that "JEHOVAH" truly was God's name! That proved to me that the JW's MUST truly have the truth.

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

Yes I do, but you do realize not everyone has the opportunity to study chronology for themselves, I mean really study. Not only that, but going to original sources for this kind of research is not really encouraged by the Slave.
Of course we both know that Gerard does not support 607. I assume you are not mentioning that aspect because that would only confirm what I said before; Witnesses are judged by whether they believe in 607 or not. 
The fact is he WAS a witness at one time but as you say, his present status is uncertain. But why are we doubting his Witness status in the first place? Why does the fact that he does not support 607 automatically change his status from being a brother to maybe not being a brother?

Will someone post page 208?

 
 
First Responders!!! STAT!!! Food fight in aisle 607!!

If this was written around 99 C.E. then I think it would just as likely (or more likely) to have referred to the fact that Christianity started among a very small group of actual eye-witnesses of Jesus, but had grown to a "great crowd" in areas far-flung from Galilee/Judea in areas where it would be common among Greek philosophical influence to allegorize the person of Jesus into a "mythological" origin -- perhaps some kind of amalgamation of brilliant rabbi/teacher, healer, wonder-worker, angel, demigod, etc. To me, it makes much more sense that this was a great danger, much more of a dangerous "apostasy" than being concerned with what sort of a body Jesus would have when he would return.

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.
I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.
Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.
So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.
(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

The only problem with those is when used in the wrong setting they are distracting and take away from the real issue. It's annoying when the messenger is attacked, instead of the message.

Thank you, DeeDee, for your kind and peaceful response.
In this way we should discuss the Word of God even if we did not agree on the interpretation.
I fully agree with you on some things.
Jehovah's wonderful message does not change and He wants none of us to be destroyed.
The good news of the Kingdom can be preached without having to "clash" on certain understandings.
However, I am deeply convinced that each of us personally has to make a careful study of the Word of God and this also includes an understanding of the prophecies - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Prophecy is not a secondary thing and should not be underestimated - 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21
The Bible encourages us to make sure of everything and this responsibility does not have only the "faithful and discreet slave" but each one of us.
Moreover I would like to remember (and I do not want to make controversy) that the "slave" will be declared "faithful and discreet" only at the beginning of Armageddon (not before).
In this regard you can find the explanation in the Watchtower of July 15, 2013 (the first study article entitled "Tell us: when do these things happen?").
With this I do not want to say that what the governing body teaches "is all wrong". I have respect for those who have this important responsibility.
So this means that today there are sincere people who try to understand the Bible, but there is still no "faithful and discreet slave".
Surely this understanding will again be "modified" because it is too uncomfortable for some but it does not matter.
The Bible is clear in this regard: each of us must study carefully and meditate on the word of God.
This includes the fact that if you come to understand some things that are different from the official understanding, you must talk about it with respect.
This is what I'm trying to do.
Of course I can be wrong, like everyone else, so it is appropriate to have an open conversation in the light of the Scriptures without having preconceptions.
This does not mean "to stumble" someone because those who truly love God and His Word do not stumble - Psalm 119: 165
I am not saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, is not it?
I am not saying that Christ is not the Son of God.
I am not bringing another teaching.
These things could "stumble" but I have the utmost respect for the Word of God.
I have not dedicated myself to the "faithful and discreet slave" or even to a human organization.
I dedicated myself to Jehovah and the words of Jehovah are found exclusively in the Bible.
Those who love God try to understand His Will through His Word and do not remain waiting for "others" to do research in his place or to tell him what to believe and what not to believe.
So, concluding the speech, even if I partly share what you write about the hope and the good news of the Kingdom, if Revelation was written in chronological order, the question is not "secondary" at all.
This means that the times of fulfillment of certain prophecies are wrong (even some dates that we consider very important) and also certain subjects are completely different.
The most important thing, this would mean that our expectations for the future are not in harmony with the Word of God.
It also means that some prophecies could be fulfilled right now and we, focused on other things, do not realize it.
the prophecy "shines in a dark place" but have we really lent "more than the usual attention"? - 2 Peter 1:19, 20; Hebrews 2: 1
Or are we living on rent waiting for someone else to tell us what to believe and what to do?
Jehovah will judge us personally and not as a people.
I wish you to personally ascertain these things without "cheering for a team" because, as you can see, it is not very easy to talk about the Bible with the brothers.
The near future may be different from what we imagined.

Thank you for explaining your thoughts. Now I understand your point. Your thought that Revelation is in chronological order might be right, or it might not be right… After all, “He… Gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment. He reveals the deep things and the hidden things…” (Daniel 2:21, 22) Daniel had been given knowledge of things that only he was made privy to. Perhaps due to your diligent study of Jehovah’s word, Jehovah has also done this in your situation.
 
Our unified understanding of Scripture has changed in the past. And it will continue to change so long as scriptural light grows brighter “until full daylight” (Proverbs 4:18). Only Jehovah knows for sure what order he means in Revelation. Whenever he wills that we ALL understand something he makes that understanding known to the F&DS, who then provides that food “at the proper time” to ALL of us (Matthew 24:45; Psalm 145:15).
 
Fortunately, whether or not Revelation is in chronological order has absolutely no effect on the Bible’s wonderful message to mankind. To be considered worthy to partake in that wonderful future that Jehovah promises us in that message, it is important that we continue to obey Jehovah and do his will. Since his will is that NO PERSON will be destroyed and ALL will attain to repentance, we need to do whatever is in our power to help others to come to know Jehovah’s love for them and to come to love him, as well (2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16).
 
When we love Jehovah, we never want to go against his will. That is why we never want to be the cause of “stumbling” to ANY person (Romans 4:13; 14:20; 16:17; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23; 8:9; 10:31-33; 2 Corinthians 6:3; Philippians 1:9, 10; 1 John 2:9-11). Surely your diligent study and devotion to Jehovah’s word is bringing a large smile to Jehovah! May you keep yourself “in God’s Love”(Jude 21).
 
P.S. Note that the Scripture (Matthew 24:45) only promises that "FOOD" will be provided at the "PROPER TIME"...It does not claim that the food (knowledge) itself is "PERFECT" and "UNCHANGEABLE." There is every possibility that Jehovah will decide that there is a time in the FUTURE that will be the "PROPER TIME" for us ALL to understand something differently than we do at the PRESENT TIME.
 

If I had to make a wild guess, I would say that you are 35 or younger and that you have pioneered at one time. You are obviously heady and have become impatient with those who are not. You are gifted in some areas but are not very well-rounded. "Full of yourself" was not an accurate nor kind description on my part. I'll take it back. I think you are hurt by your perception that many brothers seem a bit dull spiritually, and show little interest in what you are undeniably good at. Deep "research" you have found for many of them is just uncovering what the slave has said on this or that point and spitting it back to them. You would go deeper and you know that it is possible and not a bad thing in itself. It's not that you would reach your own conclusions over prophesy that is alarming. It is the fact you are so ready to judge those of greater years who have traditionally done it that is. Paul spoke of the 'pattern of healthful words.' Once you have the pattern, you can continue along those lines. You need not have every thought pre-thunk for you. But I fear this quick dismissal of headship is not the pattern that Paul speaks of. You needn't wait for them to think a thought before you think it. But denegrating them is another thing entirely. It is immodest, and that is among the reasons I take a stab that you are a younger man.
I would ask that you look at those verses like "if all were the head, where would the body be?" and "he gave some as this, some as that, some more as such-and-such with a view toward the building up...." Our people are too quick to acquiesce to headship, you say. They should roam around themselves more and not be content to be spoon-fed. My suggestion is that you accept that is the way people are - anywhere. Not all have the same gifts.
Not all are heady. In fact, most of our people are hands-on doers in this or that way - not heady. It's the way it is, Israeli. It is what Jehovah has given. Do not let your gift trip you up. Use it to build up and not tear down. Find that verse that tells us to regard the other person as superior to ourselves. Focus on it. How are they superior to you? Not in in-depth search of the scriptures, probably. You have bases well-covered there. Look for other areas in which they are superior and be instructed by them.
You say you really love the Word of God. i don't doubt it. Expand in how you love it. Expand at being a workman handling the word of truth aright - teaching it at the door & learning to love people so that you can be on the same wavelength as they to teach it. Notice the word used is "workman" That flavor is in all translations. They were builders and masons and handymen back then, just like today. They were not scholars. You are. Make it your gift that you bring to the altar. Don't count as inadequate those who bring different gifts. 
I would think you would be cheered by recent direction of Jehovah's Witnesses. Magazines will be but 6 a year, and then they will repeat. No more countenancing of those who fall into magazine placing. They are being nudged to improve (or learn) their teaching. Are there some who look to the jw.org logo almost like an idol, as some have charged?  'Keep your hands off it' is the impetus of the April article. Do some fawn over GB members and want selfies with them? 'Stop doing that,' they say. We don't take no selfies with nobody. They are aware of the problems you mention. They are moving in your direction
The C.O from our circuit was assigned the Warwick circuit next. So I razzed him to the effect "Now you are in trouble! You can razzle-dazzle we yokels here, but what will you ever do when you get there?" Through a friend I heard him about his new assignment. He was initially very uncomfortable playing circuit overseer before these ones. He felt inadequate. But he said that they are so very humble and unassuming that all that nervousness dissipated quickly. It is a type of report one hears frequently.
You misinterpret what you think is slavish devotion to them. They do nothing to exalt themselves as men and much to discourage it. What you missread is that not all persons are scholars. Or even thinkers. They have come out of a world where they perceived all is lie and spin and manipulation. They have discovered a source that they are convinced is not. They trust the source. They are not over-eager to dive back outside where again every word must be carefully weighed. They have other things to do. They want to get into the nitty-gritty of life and they do it, satisfied that the have the spiritual food base covered.
Let the entire Word of God and all theocratic arrangements mold you. Not just the parts you naturally take to. Look to the parts you don't and run them through your veins a few decades. It will make you complete and powerful over time. Don't chafe at the congregation. You are something that many of them are not. Learn that they have substantial gifts, too, and exert yourself to appreciate them more.
Am I close? Or did I miss by a mile? If it is the latter, it will not be the first time.
 

Sounds like a fun group!

But you know it’s no excuse to say “the devil made me!" (made me do something bad). So even though the whole world is under the influence of the devil, people can still chose to do the right thing .  But to analyze the statement you made; people want peace, but the problem is they want it on their terms. This is where the devil's influence comes into play. Do you think that such traits as pride, nationalism, racism, lack of self control etc. contribute to actual peace? Those are the devil's traits and the world is saturated with them. There will be no peace as long as people refuse to clothe themselves with “a Christ like personality”.
We can take the concept of “free will” into the realms of philosophy, and it gets very complicated. I believe common sense triumphs over philosophy any day, in that it’s actually useful and practical! I am just talking about the good old classic free will, where I decide to do something regardless of whether I was deceived or guilted (or whatever) into it. In my opinion, one has accepted the true concept of free will when one also accepts the consequences of it, and quits blaming deception, guilt, cognitive dissonance, imperfection or “whatever” for making a particular decision.  Although you meant Peter (as @Melinda Mills pointed out) the apostle Paul did lament the effects of imperfection in Romans 7:15-21. However, he was not just washing his hands off the whole problem and blaming imperfection for his decisions if they were wrong, what he was doing was acknowledging that it was a frequent battle to do the right thing, and he pointed out that one can win that battle with God's help.
Peter denied Jesus 3 times. No one made him do it. He was not under Satan's influence. It was his own weakness, and fear of man, his imperfection, just like what Paul mentions, that caused him to fail for a few moments. It was still his choice at that moment though and I don't recall him putting the blame on anyone or anything else for that choice.
 
 

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.
I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.
Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.
So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.
(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

I am sure you meant apostle Peter.
"Only Jehovah can make people do what he wants, but he has only done so on extremely rare occasions under specific circumstances."  - Anna
Example:  Jehovah made Balaam bless Israel when he wanted to curse Israel. 

Yes, the skirts on the right have been photo-shopped to go over he knees of the sisters. I suppose some brothers were getting....ummmm...a little..... excited..... at seeing knees?

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.
I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.
Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.
So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.
(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

He is exactly right.
 
Somewhat. It is because he knows the overall world is not Winnie-the-Pooh friendly toward Christian values. What is it with those who would disparage such counsel? They are exactly out of harmony with Scripture, in that they present the world as though it was.
I have the greatest respect for him, because he says what needs to be said, despite knowing that villains will beat him over the head with his own words and JTR will photoshop tight pants on him.
His counsel is exactly what public safety people will tell the public - hang up on the scammers. Don't think you can outsmart them. They do it 24/7 and you do it 10 minutes a month.
Don't be cocky thinking you will outwit the loudmouth car dealer & beat him at his own game. It is possible, but not likely, for the same reason.
This is not aimed at me, but I rationalize away nothing. It is counsel, not law. Also, I have plainly said I am being a bad boy in this regard. In all other significant areas, I would hope I can say I am exemplary. But not this one, and I do fret about setting a bad example for others. I do it for reasons not necessarily spiritual. Sometimes I just like to brawl. Even when I think I have "won" I have demonstrated an un-Christian trait. Even if I display clever argumentation, I distract from Scriptures that says it is primarily heart that counts. Charles Russell say 'if you stop to kick every dog that barks, you will not get very far.' Sometimes I like to kick them. And no, I haven't gotten very far.
Rightly or wrongly, to me, this forum is where spiritual themes play out and where hearts manifest themselves. This is where it can be seen "they went out from us, because they were not of our sort." "Sorts" can be seen here. Like the person who gags at the mention of "the greater good" when it is exactly pursuit of the greater good that is integral to Christianity as shown in Scripture. Like the person who argues doctrine or prophesy till the cows come home but never once gives indication whether they actually apply Christ-like traits in their own life. Like the person who wears like a badge of honor the #1 apostate trait Peter identifies: a contempt for authority.
Ann is routinely cutting in her remarks. "I am amazed (but maybe I should not be)" she hurls at someone who has resisted her instruction on another thread. She so plainly views herself as one of the intelligentsia with her patience being sorely tried as she talks down to the dumbbells. There is a time and place to say "sometimes people disagree - I can live with that."
Witness has revealed beyond all doubt her craving for audience and authority. @Arauna has nailed it pretty well.
Srecko has chosen to represent himself here as a moron, with his inane giggle hehehe preceding each imagined coup de grace, and his absurdly smilelys at the end. :)))) It reveals someone extremely clever in his own eyes as he taunt those he thinks he outwits.
These characters will scream about ad hominem attacks. Within reason, there is nothing wrong with ad homenem attacks, though I can see why they would not want any leveled at them. Jesus said a Christian should be a living example of Christianity, therefore an ad hominem attack should find little to latch onto. If it does, it is an indication that one is lacking in spiritual qualities and therefore possibly not the one you want to hitch your wagon to.
An internet forum is a battle of the wits and the Bible says it is the heart that matters. No wonder Anthony Morris is not enthused with it.

Sounds like a fun group!

Same here.
 
Yes.
Even so, I am not quick to think I am in the clear, although what I say is unfailingly supportive. For all I know, someone is saying "what do you make of that squirrely Tom fellow on the WNMF?"
I remember a District Overseer dismayed that whatever he had said last time had been ignored. When he inquired, he was told it had been assumed he was speaking of others. He ended by saying: "No, brothers, that counsel was for you - and not those bad brothers of Pennsylvania."
I don't even say that I am a Witness on my site. Obviously it can be read between the lines, but it is not plainly stated. I do get emails asking if I am or not. I don't link to the jw.org website, either, though I can. I don't do it because I think it imputes my idiosyncrasies - we all have some - upon them. I don't wear any of those pins or logos or designer prints. It's just me, but I don't like them. I am not a billboard. I don't wear any commercial advertising either.
I didn't care for the notion of wearing the badge cards the complete day of the convention. I did it because they asked me to, as a means of advertising the convention. I got used to it and do so without any muttering at all. The cause is right.
In general, the internet is a terrible place to witness. Yet our people do it all the time. A brother will say online: "Do you want to know the truth about the cross?" The answer is 'NO.' Secular people do not care, and religious people do not wonder. The only people who come along are ideologues who live to argue. As often as not, it leads to name-calling.
People think they can assemble their own congregation on the internet. They can't. There is no way to gauge spirituality. There is no way to tell if you are speaking to a liar or a saint. There is no channel to dispense spiritual food. Nobody knows if I am a circuit overseer or if I am disfellowshipped. It is "uncontrollable," as @Noble Berean said, the land of the liars. And yet our people are inherently trusting - guileless. Sometimes it blows up in their face. Even if I am now a "good guy" who is to say I always will be? If a writing brother goes bad at Bethel, they can yank him and insert someone who has not. But if I have built a "following" and I go bad? No wonder the GB is not thrilled when our brothers dive into social media. 
 

it did it for me. I had the picture pinned on my bathroom mirror.

Yes, the skirts on the right have been photo-shopped to go over he knees of the sisters. I suppose some brothers were getting....ummmm...a little..... excited..... at seeing knees?

I agree. I don't know why, but @scholar JW and even some of the accounts tied to @AllenSmith have brought up this old idea that the 1914 Gentile Times doctrine was also proved to be correct through Zionist activities. I know that some people still believe this, but clearly you and I do not, and the Watchtower publications have provided a lot of good scriptural information to explain why it's not about earthly Jerusalem.
I'm guessing that "scholar JW" and "Allen Smith" bring it up because they are aware that this was the meaning of "Gentile Times" prior to 1914, and they realize that in order to say that we predicted it in advance, that something should have happened to earthly Israel. After all, the only prediction about 1914 that we can still claim to have gotten right from "decades in advance" of 1914 is the prediction that the Gentile Times would end that year. All the predictions that 1914 would be the end, and not the beginning of the times of distress had to finally be thrown away. All we had to do, of course, is change the meaning of "Gentile Times" so we could claim that we at least got that part right. There is a level of hubris, presumptuousness, haughtiness, ego, and pride which has always been a part of Bible prophecy predictions. They fail 99% of the time, which then results in either humility or dishonesty. You can guess what most religious leaders choose.
Every honest person who has looked carefully at the evidence has admitted that there is no proof for 607. If you read the "Chronology" article in the Insight book more carefully, you will realize that even the WTS is admitting that they are basing their own belief about the secular date 607 on the same defective sources. It has nothing to do with a belief related to fleshly Israel in modern times.
Yes, Russell is being brought up again and again in the publications. A kind of resurgence especially since the 2014 centenary. I'm in favor of learning from the past so as not to repeat mistakes, to choose the good and discard the bad, and learn humility, and learn how Jehovah can accomplish his purposes through imperfect people, often in ways they don't even understand at the time. We can appreciate the blessings they enjoyed, especially as they overcame so many obstacles as a very small group which has now grown to millions. But I am not in favor of re-writing history and putting a false spin on it just so we can try to attach a measure of that success to ourselves. It's like a person who longs for the days of old, their "glory days" which is fine up to a point, but loses its good, encouraging effect when they start enhancing that history with "adjusted" stories that sound more impressive.
Revelation was written to be an encouragement in all time periods when Christians sigh and groan through the present system of things, filled with war, pestilence, famine and death, and still therefore eagerly call out "Come! Lord Jesus."
Christians were given a "taste" of the glory of Jesus' kingship during the activities and proofs of the first century, and that glimpse should be enough for us to realize that we don't need to know everything that is going on behind the scenes in order to "persevere" until Jesus is manifested again at the end, the parousia (sudden, highly visible royal visitation) the synteleia (final conclusion; end of all things), the manifestation, the revelation, the judgment. He appeared "once for all time" as King and Priest according to the manner of Melchizedek, King and Priest. Revelation provides a vision, based on the glimpses of the glory revealed in the first century, and reveals how much greater and more real that glory must be in the "behind-the-scenes" heavenly enactments of those events, both past, present and future. In this way, Revelation brings the promises even closer to us so we can keep it close in mind.
Revelation is a parallel, in vision form, to the same admonition to endure to the end that we get in many other passages of scripture which are not in vision form. For example:
(1 Timothy 6:11-16) 11 However, you, O man of God, flee from these things. But pursue righteousness, godly devotion, faith, love, endurance, and mildness. 12 Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses. 13 Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen. Note that the foundation here is that Jesus is already King of Kings [same point made in Revelation 1:5; 17:12], yet we continue to endure faithfully until a future manifestion or revelation of that same Kingship, when it can again be said that "Jehovah has become King!" based on the fulfilled promise of the Kingdom through Christ when he battles the nations, brings them to ruin [true End of Gentile Times], judging and rewarding the resurrected dead.
(Revelation 11:17, 18) . . .“We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” Revelation 12 is this same history of Jesus' appointment and divine protection in vision form, using Biblical imagery from the past. It provides assurance that the promises will come no matter what obstacles arise, even death. Here is the same promise in non-vision form:
(Romans 8:31-39) 31 What, then, are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who will be against us? 32 Since he did not even spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, will he not also, along with him, kindly give us all other things? 33 Who will file accusation against God’s chosen ones? God is the One who declares them righteous. 34 Who will condemn them? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, more than that the one who was raised up, who is at the right hand of God and who also pleads for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 Just as it is written: “For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughtering.” 37 On the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious through the one who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That "short period of time" might make sense to you as a period of 100 or 200 years, depending on how long the overlapping generation is defined. But there is nothing in scripture that says it is one "generation," or that it is less than 2,000 years or even less than 1 year. Perhaps it is the same time period that is also called "one hour" as the kingdoms being brought to ruin think that they must cooperate against the Lamb if they are to have any chance of survival:
(Revelation 17:12-14) 12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”
I do not claim that this way of reading Revelation is the right way or true way, but it brings me comfort and encouragement, probably in a similar way to the way in which it brought comfort and encouragement to the first readers of Revelation in Ephesus, Pergamum, etc. I don't claim to know any more about the signs or the times and seasons than they did. If you find comfort in believing that Jesus took his full power and kingship in 1914, that's fine, too. Although I'm sure that, by comparison, you will be in even more awe of the power of that kingdom over the times of the gentile nations when that power is more fully manifested. And I'm sure you appreciate the glimpses of that power and glory that Jesus revealed in the past as recorded in scripture. So in this we are not so different, and I do not think there is any value in demeaning whatever meaning you currently give to this intermediate manifestation of that kingdom in 1914.
But with respect to honesty about the past, we do know that there is no evidence for the date 607. But, if one wishes, they can still find other reasons to look back at 1914. For many of us, I can tell it gives us a sense of superiority and self-righteousness that we, of all peoples, were able to predict 1914, decades in advance. But exactly what were we able to predict?
We were able to predict that it meant Armageddon would be completed in the surrounding months, that the great tribulation would be completed, and that it would usher in a time of peace before 1915. And, as the end of the times of power given to the nations (Gentile Times) it would also see the collapse into chaos of all nations and political institutions of all kinds except for the nation of Israel -- the Gentiles had had truly their day. It was "the end of the World" in that sense. So, in order to continue to be right and not admit a failure, we (WTS) loudly proclaimed that the "World had ended in 1914." That worked well through the war, but soon lost its value as 100% of the predictions for 1918 failed, too. We continued to say that Armageddon had actually started in 1914, because all we had to do was keep extending the meaning of Armageddon and weakening its Biblical meaning so that it was more related to the fight between "Labor and Capital." We also had a clever reason for continuing to say that the "great tribulation" had started in 1914, but that the break in the tribulation was the same one Jesus predicted saying that the days were cut short "on account of the chosen ones." This explanation was in effect when I was baptized, and didn't change until a few years later:
*** w99 5/1 p. 16 par. 11 “Let the Reader Use Discernment” ***
However, in later years we have come to see things differently. On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the “Peace on Earth” International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave an electrifying talk. In reviewing the previous understanding of Jesus’ prophecy, Brother Franz said: “The explanation was given that the ‘great tribulation’ had begun in 1914 C.E. and that it was not allowed to run its full course then but God stopped World War I in November of 1918. From then on God was allowing an interval for the activity of his anointed remnant of elect Christians before he let the final part of the ‘great tribulation’ resume at the battle of Armageddon.” Now, the only remaining portion of the prediction that we claim we got right was the prediction that the Gentile Times would end in 1914. We still claim that we were right about that, but had to change the definition of the term "Gentile Times" in order to keep claiming that we at least got that part right.
So, hopefully, you can see that I am only interested in the  repeated misuse of the doctrine by which we like to claim superiority because we wish to be "right at all costs." If it's at the cost of honesty and integrity, we should clean it up. I wonder how many people that we talk to in our ministry have been able to see through the false claims and hubris and this becomes the reason they give no further respect for the wonderful truths that we also could share with them.