Jump to content
The World News Media

Full text of "Russell Vs Eaton Debate"

The Librarian

Recommended Posts

  • Member
Russell Vs. Eaton Debate 


Complete report of the Great Religious Debate between 

Rev. E. L. Eaton, D. D., 

And Pastor C. T. Russell, V. D. M., on the 

Subject of "Eschatology." 





Carnegie Music Hall in Allegheny Crowded, 

and Speakers Listened to Attentively 

as they Discussed Probation 


Remarkable in the demonstration of religious interest, the series of discussions 
between the Rev. E. L. Eaton, D. D. pastor of the North Avenue Methodist 
Episcopal church, and C. T. Russell, pastor of the Allegheny Bible House 
congregation, was inaugurated yesterday afternoon with a debate on the general 
topic of probation. The meeting was held in the Allegheny Carnegie music hall, 
and a larger assemblage had never been seen in the building. The remarks of both 
speakers were interrupted at frequent intervals with fervid responses and 
enthusiastic applause. 

The Rev. Dr. W. H. McMillan, pastor of the Second United Presbyterian church, 
Allegheny, presided. Half an hour before the meeting was opened the hall was 
packed with people. The aisles of the main auditorium, the balcony, the stage and 
the vestibules were given over for standing room to the eager crowd. Preceding 
the debate a short devotional exercise was held and the singing of the hymns, "All 
Hail the Power of Jesus' Name," "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah," and "Tell 
Me the Old, Old Story" was entered into with the zest of worshipers at a revival. 
No collection basket was passed, and the following proposition was announced 
for discussion: 


"The Scriptures clearly teach that divine grace and power, full and free, have 
been constantly exercised toward mankind since the fall, to the intent that all, if 
they would, might be saved: hence there will be no probation after death, nor need 
of any. Dr. Eaton to affirm. Pastor Russell to deny." 

The ushers were selected from the members of the two congregations. Prof B. 
Frank Walters of the Bible House presided at the organ, and E. P. Russell of the 
North Avenue church led in the singing. 

The next debate will be held tomorrow evening at 8 o'clock in the Allegheny 
Carnegie hall, the Rev. Dr. H. D. Lindsay presiding. The proposition for 
discussion will be: 

"The Scriptures clearly teach that the souls of the dead are unconscious while 
their bodies are in the grave. Pastor Russell will affirm. Dr. Eaton will deny." 

The affirmative side was first given by Dr. Eaton, who spoke as follows: 

All mankind are on trial for their moral character and eternal destiny. The object 
of this probation is to decide whether they will accept the offer of eternal life, and 
by obedience to God rise from a state of depravity and sin to a state of holiness, or 
whether they will reject this offer of life and salvation, continue in sin and reap 
the awful retribution of sin at last. 

We are on probation for a good many things of this life; for our health. Every 
human being is on probation all the time for his health, and he may so treat his 
health or the laws of nature as to cause it to be entirely over-thrown. We are on 
trial all the time as to the matter of wealth; of happiness; of education; social 
position; moral character — whether we shall be honest or dishonest; for personal 
influence. All these things, exceedingly important as they are, are under the 
control of our own will. 


A time will come in respect to all of these when we shall cross a line and cannot 
retrace our steps. Who shall say that if we are on probation for these important 
things we are not on probation for other important things, for eternal things? Who 
shall say that with regard to my eternal destiny I shall not cross a line which will 
mark the eternal settlement of that important interest? 

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the 
knowledge of good and evil; thou shalt not eat of it." When God made Adam and 
Eve he put them on probation, and those are the terms. "I call heaven and earth to 
record this day against you — life and death. Therefore choose life, that thou and 
thy seed may live." That is the declaration of Moses, that the race is on trial for 
life or death. 


The heathen nations, as well as the Christian nations, are on probation. It is not 
limited to Christians at all. It is constantly assumed that there are none but 
Christians on probation. If that be true, then three-fifths of the human race, who 
die in infancy, have had no opportunity for salvation. Those who have died in 
heathendom have had no opportunity. But they were redeemed in Christ, in the 
great offering of salvation. It does not follow that every human being must know 
Him personally, individually, in order to secure the benefits of worldwide 
redemption. No member of the human race knew Jesus Christ as his Savior for 
4000 years, but millions were saved who did not know him. 

How were they saved? By believing and obeying God. All are saved on those 
terms. The Scriptures do not leave us in doubt on this point. Writing to the Roman 
Christians, just from heathendom, the apostle says: "The invisible things of Him 
from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things 
that are made, even His eternal godhead and deity, so that they are without 
excuse." "There is no respect of persons with God; as many as have sinned under 
the law shall perish by the law; for not the hearers of the law shall be justified, but 
the doers." 

In the apostle's discussion in Romans 1 and 2 he shows that every heathen in the 
world is responsible for the light he has. The light that lighteth every man that 
Cometh into the world hath reached all of them, and they can be saved by that 
light if they will. If that is the situation I am willing to presume that the entire race 
are having a fair chance for eternal life. This life is not one of retribution. There is 
a great deal of evil in the world, and even death came by sin, but it is not the 
punishment for sin. 

Job was accused of being wicked because he suffered, but evil was not sent to 
punish sin in him, but to perfect his character in his day of probation. The blind 
man whom Jesus cured was declared not to have sinned, nor to be suffering for 
sin, but to show forth the glory of God. The evil of this life is permitted in order to 
furnish occasion for the display of divine mercy and grace. 

God's offer of mercy is confined to this life. John 8: 23, Prov. 1: 24-28, Ezek. 33: 
9, Prov. 1: 7, 2 Cor. 6: 2, Heb. 4: 7, Eccl. 9: 10. These scriptures have one 
declaration — that mercy is confined to this life. The parable of the wheat and the 
tares in the 13th chapter enforces this thought. It covers the entire history of the 
race. The Lord explained the parable to the disciples, who realized that it 
imported a very serious problem. He said: "The harvest is the end of the world" 

— aion — age, the end of human history. This word stands for the entire sweep of 
human history from the beginning to the end; it does not mean a dispensation or a 
fragment of time. "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world" — the 
"world" stands for the entire sweep of human history. 

When human history ends on this planet the harvest takes place. The Son of Man 
shall send forth His angels and gather out of His kingdom — notgather seed for 
the kingdom, but gather out of the kingdom which is now in the world, the tares 

— allthings which offend and do iniquity." That seems to me to limit probation to 
that period. All people in the world, wheat and tares, are growing together on 


If there is any probation after death it must be in the intermediate state; it cannot 
be in heaven; it is not on earth; it must be in hades or sheol, that conscious state of 
existence into which all mankind goes at death and where they remain until the 
resurrection and judgment. We have one picture of the souls in this state in the 
Old Testament and another picture in the New Testament. 

In the 14th chapter of Isaiah are these words: "Hell from beneath is moved for 
thee to meet thee at thy coming." Belshazzar, the last of the Babylonish kings and 
wickedest of them all, is here described; it is a magnificent celebration they are 
having in the lower world, a picnic in hell, the celebration of the down-coming of 
a lost soul. 

"It stirs up all the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth" — a picture 
of the most abject helplessness and misery that could possibly be dreamed of is 
that of the man who sat on the throne of Babylon, defied God and God's people 
and drank wine out of the golden vessels of the temple was finally stricken and 
that night perished, to wake up in sheol 


with the demons and lost men, taunting him with his awful end. If there is any 
probation after death it must be in sheol, but that man was not on probation in 

The other picture is more definite in the New Testament. The hades of the New 
Testament is equivalent to the sheol of the Old, and in the 16th chapter of Luke 
we have the story of the rich man and Lazarus describing it. Luke, writing for the 
cultured Greeks, was delineating various phases of character and the results in 
each case. 


Some ask, why was the rich man banished to hell — becausehe was rich? No; but 
because, being rich, he did not love God. That is the tendency of riches 

Throughout the Bible everywhere you can find men who were pardoned and 
saved, who committed adultery, murder and theft; they repented and were saved. 
But where can you find any rich man saved? It is a tremendous commentary upon 
human nature. 

Ahab and Judas were on probation, and they both went to hades. If there is any 
probation after death it must be in hades, for here are two live people who have 
died and are there — one in paradise, and the other in Tartarus. The latter did not 
repent; he had the same character he had here, and, just like many people since, 
who do not like God's plan and propose a plan of their own, he wanted something 
done which was not God's proposition. His prayers to Abraham were denied, and 
a place where prayer cannot be answered is not a world of probation. That man 
had entered upon his retribution — not his final and eternal retribution, but the 
retribution of the intermediate state, which Peter calls Tartarus. 
Peter speaks about the preaching to the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18, 20) I have 
never encountered anybody who did not consider that a very difficult passage to 
interpret. Who are the spirits in prison? Some suggest that they were 
antediluvians, to whom Christ went in spirit when His body left the cross; some 
suggest that Christ's spirit was in Noah when He himself preached to the 
antediluvians. But these do not answer all the difficulties. 


Others think He preached to the lost souls in Tartarus, to whom His soul went, 
after He left the cross. But if Christ did go to the lost souls in hades or Tartarus 
we would expect some results; but there is no such report — noevidence that any 
good was accomplished. We are inclined to think that He preached to the spirits in 
paradise, proclaiming the victory which He brought with him after His death. 
Bearing the burden of a human soul redeemed, as He declared to the dying thief, 
"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." He proclaimed a message in triumph 
to the souls in hades. 

We have a good many texts that God will have all men to be saved; but all those 
texts that express God's willingness to have all men to be saved is the same word 
used in this, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you as a 
hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not." How oft would I have gathered! 
There is the same word. This does not express God's purpose, but his desire to 
gather the people. So all the texts of this character. 

God declares in His Word that He has exhausted all salvation means in this life to 
save them — done everything he could. He has given us His son Jesus Christ to 
die upon the cross, to break our hearts and bring us into harmony with him. Is 
there any world where God can appeal to men more than He is now, with blood 
and tears? Is there anjrwhere where God's work can mean any more than it means 
now? Is it possible for the preaching of the word to be any more clear than in this 


I could not imagine any angel declaring the truth more forcefully than it is being 
proclaimed from pulpit and rostrum today. If the motive in men's hearts is not 
strong enough here I cannot imagine it being stronger anywhere else. Man has no 
right to ask for a probation after death. In this life all of us well know that we 
have an opportunity and if we despise that opportunity we know that we have 
forfeited our rights to any further chance. There is a magnificent chance for us all, 
and if we despise that chance it seems to me we have no right to expect another. 

Pastor Russell, on rising to reply, first explained that the initials, "V. D. M.," used 
in announcements in connection with his name signified "Minister of the Word of 
God" (Verbe Die Minister), expressed his pleasure in having recognized scholars 
and a gentleman for an opponent, andacknowl edged the forcefulness of the latter's 
presentation of his side of the question at issue. He urged, however, that well- 
balanced minds should decide the matter upon a careful consideration of both 
sides, and remember that the deciding standard had been agreed between the 
contestants to be the Word of God alone — " What say the Scriptures?" He 

Our brother declares that the Scriptures clearly teach that God has been doing all 
in His power to do from the beginning of creation down to the present 


time to save mankind. If we find that the Scriptures teach that it will be a great 
disappointment to me, I assure you. I look back to the Bible itself, the only 
reliable ancient history, and there find the statement that after God had created our 
first parents perfect and in his own image, and after they had been tried in Eden 
and had proved themselves disobedient and had come under the sentence of death, 
there was a period of 1,656 years that ensued, and in that period, instead of the 
world of mankind being saved, and instead of there being any evidence whatever 
that our heavenly Father tried to save the world of mankind — the testimony of 
Scriptures is to the contrary — thatat the end of 1,656 years the world was corrupt 
before God and he brought the flood of water which blotted out that world. 

If those people had all the probation and all the opportunity they will ever have, 
then this place where they are going to be, the devil's picnic that our brother tells 
about, will have a very large population. A good many millions are going there. 
At the end of 1,656 years only Noah and seven of his family were found worthy 
of salvation and being brought across the flood to be the starters of a new order of 
things this side the cataclysm. Then we take the history this side the flood and 
find that Noah and his family, eight persons in all, started out fairly well, fairly 
good representatives of the Lord in the world, and it was only a little while 
afterward that the earth was again corrupt, only a little while till they began to 
build the tower of Babel, as if to say. We will see to it that if God sends another 
flood it shall not drown us. They would build their own tower of salvation; and 
God scattered them and divided their language. 

The Apostle Paul, in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans, calls attention to 
the fact that this prevalence of superstition and degradation throughout the world 
is not because our heavenly Father created the poor African and Chinaman and 
Indian in their present degradation, but that having created man perfect and in his 
own image and likeness; when they knew God they did not glorify Him as God, 
neither were they thankful, but became vain in their imagination and their foolish 
mind was darkened; so that God "gave them over" — Helet them go. We see 
where they went — we see what degradation there is throughout the world today. 


The apostle accounts for it and goes on to show why so few hear the gospel of 
Christ, saying: "The god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them that 
believe not." (2 Cor. 4: 4) They are blinded, they cannot see — it is not possible 
for them to see. Why is it that the poor heathen do not know God and do not 
understand the plan of salvation? The apostle says Satan hath blinded their minds. 
And all Christian people are glad to do what we can to remove that blindness, by 
sending missionaries to not only heathen lands, but throughout our home land as 
well. To what extent are we successful in removing this blindness, to make all 
men see the height and depth and length and breadth of the love of God? To a 
very small extent, and to a very small proportion of the people of this world. 

Our brother seems to have the impression that these heathen that would not have 
good to reign over them, and thus became heathen, would be saved in their 
heathendom and ignorance and superstition. I understand him that some of these 
are already in Paradise, without ever having heard of the only name given under 
heaven or among men whereby we may be saved. I would like to know how they 
got there? The apostle, after laying down the proposition that faith is necessary, 
and no salvation without faith, says, "How shall they believe in Him of whom 
they have not heard, and how shall they believe unless they hear, and how shall 
they hear unless a preacher be sent?" 

Therefore, we will follow the apostle and not our brother when we send 
missionaries to help the heathen hear. There is no other condition of salvation 
than faith in the Lord Jesus. If faith is necessary, that is a different proposition; 
then the heathen are not saved. But suppose that those heathen are saved, and 
suppose we should admit the salvation which our brother suggests, and which Dr. 
Talmage also suggested, when he declared that he would not admit that the devils 
get all. Dr. Talmage declared that one-half died in infancy and God got them; and 
all the heathen that died God has got, and all the idiots God has taken in — 

andour brother included the idiots in his suggestion as to the ones benefited by 
Christ's death without necessity for faith in him. 


Now I want to know, if the heathen and idiots are in paradise, where are the 
intelligent human beings who have been seeking to serve God with their best 
efforts and through various experiences of testing, to get their heaven? (Loud 
applause.) I do not think our dear brother would have this thought which he 
advances — itwould not be reasonable — wereit not for the fact that he is obliged 
to crowd down into the present life all the opportunity for salvation which his 
theory requires; and his heart is too generous for him to assert that those who have 
no opportunity to know Christ in the present time must go to a place of eternal 

I admire the brother's generosity, but I do not think 


it is at all like the Father's plan that because a man was born a heathen, or an idiot, 
or died in infancy, therefore he must be saved. What is the meaning of those 
words: "Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few 
there be that find it?" If our brother's proposition is the end, how unfortunate are 
you that you did not die in infancy; unfortunate are you that you were not a 
heathen, and thus have been able to escape the responsibility of hearing the gospel 
of Jesus Christ. 

The Scriptures declare that the whole world lieth in the wicked one. Again we are 
told that "Satan is the prince of this world," that he exercises a great and dominant 
power over the world; he is the great power of evil; God has permitted this great 
power. We must all be agreed that if God did not give Satan this permission he 
could have no power. The scriptures teach that the time is coming when God will 
alter matters, when Satan shall be bound for 1,000 years, and when Christ shall 
take unto Himself His great power and reign. Our brother says he can see no 
reason why the present are not the greatest opportunities, why there should be any 
necessity for improving on them. 


I can see why there is a necessity for improvement. I can. see where a vast 
opportunity for improvement is evidenced, and I could improve upon the 
conditions of the present day myself Give me one-tenth the power of the 
Almighty, and I would shut up every brewery and distillery in the land; I would 
close every saloon and place of evil, and I would see that the influence of Satan 
was overthrown. (Applause) We see all the best people in the world trying to do 
this, which we know our Heavenly Father could do at His word; which we loiow 
He will do when the due time shall come, when Satan, the old serpent, the devil, 
shall be bound for 1,000 years, that he may deceive the nations no more. 

He has been confusing the minds of all the heathen, so that they do not recognize 
him; and he has been blinding even the people of our own supposedly Christian 
lands, so that they think of our God as a great and terrible monster. He has 
beclouded the minds of God's dear children so that in the reading of His blessed 
book they misinterpret the same — not intentionally, but misinterpret, 

I want to call your attention to the place where the gospel had its beginning, 
according to the scriptures. It did not begin in Eden. There was no need of a 
gospel when our heavenly Father communicated with Father Adam. He gave him 
a law; he was disobedient to the law and he was punished for the breaking of it, 
but He did not give him any gospel. The word means good tidings, and God did 
not tell our first parents about good tidings of salvation. The-nearest hint to a 
suggestion on the subject was that some day "the seed of the woman should braise 
the serpent's head." 


That statement has never been fulfilled. All during the period from Adam to the 
flood there is not a suggestion anywhere that the gospel was preached. On the 
contrary, the apostle tells us that "the gospel was preached beforehand to 
Abraham," the first who ever heard the gospel. He gave his message to Abraham, 
and what was the message? "In thy seed shall all the families of the earth be 
blessed." That is a comprehensive promise — theoath-bound promise, as the 
Apostle Paul calls it in his letter to the Hebrews. God swore that it should be so, 
that we might have strong consolation while waiting for the fulfillment of that 
great statement of the divine purpose. 

This statement made to Abraham has never been fulfilled; not a word of evidence 
has been produced to such effect. It is impossible to produce such testimony, 
because there is none such. On the contrary, according to the Scriptures, darkness 
covers the earth and gross darkness the people. It is not true that the light of the 
world is shining forth; that the great Redeemer who is to enlighten every man that 
Cometh into the world has not yet begun that glorious work, else we would now 
see the fulfillment of the gracious promise, "The knowledge of the Lord shall fill 
the whole earth as the waters cover the sea." 

"None shall say unto his neighbor. Know the Lord, for all shall know him, from 
the least unto the greatest of them." The Lord's promise is, however, that in due 
time the sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in his beams, and shall fiood 
the earth with light and scatter the nighttime. (Great applause) That time is not yet 
come; the night-darkness is not scattered. We know that there is still necessity, as 
the prophet has depicted it, that we should recognize the word of God as a light to 
our feet and a map to our pathway as we walk through the darkness of this world, 
"until the day dawn, and the day star arise," as Peter puts it. 


We can see the gross darkness upon the world, but He who has told us about it 
has told us also about the great sunrise of righteousness, and that sunrise is the 
millennial sun. It is Christ, the sun of righteousness, with healing in his beams, 
which is to be the fulfillment of that promise to Abraham, "In thy seed shall all 
the families of the earth be blessed." 

The Lord is now blessing the church, but 


they are not all the families of the earth by any means. The blessing was not 
merely to be to the church, but as expressed by the Apostle John, "He is the 
propitiation for our sins (the church's sins), and not for ours only, but also for the 
sins of the whole world." The church is to be a part of the seed of Abraham which 
is to accomplish the blessing upon the world. So the apostle declares in Gal. 3: 16, 
29, saying of the seed, "which seed is Christ," and continuing declares, "If ye be 
Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." 

So we see that this first statement of the gospel has only gone so far in fulfillment 
that God has been taking out the seed of Abraham during this gospel age. The 
seed, which is the church, is not yet complete. We are not speaking of the 
Presbyterian or Methodist or some other denomination; we are speaking of the 
church of the Lord Jesus Christ, those who are trusting in the Lord for divine 
mercy and who are united to him by a living faith, in full consecration to His 
service. These are the members of the real church, the seed of Abraham, and this 
gospel age is appointed to gather out all from the nations, kindreds and peoples 
under heaven, that they, as the seed of Abraham, may be glorified, and as the 
glorified seed may shine out in blessing for all the world of mankind. 


Subsequently to the giving of the promise to Abraham God made a covenant with 
the people of Israel, and the apostle explains that the law of Moses was added to 
the great covenant of blessing. This covenant constituted the people of Israel — 
God'schosen ones — ina special sense, a peculiar people, under the Mosaic law 
which they vainly strove to keep. The apostle tells us that it was impossible for 
them to keep the law, for by the deeds of the law should no flesh' be justified in 
God's sight. It was intended to teach that people their utter helplessness, and the 
absolute necessity for a great mediator, Christ Jesus, to redeem them from sin and 
enable them to approve themselves before God. 

It did not save them from sin in any sense. In the meantime what about the 
heathen nations around about? The declaration of Scripture is most positive. God 
had no dealings with them whatever. Through the prophet Amos God declared to 
the Jewish nation, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth." The 
other nations were left out entirely. The Apostle Paul showed how distinctly they 
were left out, when he said, addressing some who became Christians out of the 

heathen nations, "Ye were strangers and foreigners, aliens from the 
commonwealth of Israel, without God and without hope in the world" — thatis 
the attitude of all heathen people. The only people who had any opportunity with 
God up to the time of Christ was the nation of Israel, and that one nation was only 
a typical people. 

Their sacrifices could never take away sin. The apostle says they merely typified 
the church which should later be the chosen people of God. The church has the 
real sacrifice, the church is the real priesthood, it is the real peculiar people, it has 
the real holy of holies, has the real justification, all of which were typified in the 
various conditions of the Jewish nation. The point we desire to make is this: God 
did not begin any work of salvation until this gospel age; the Jews who were the 
nearest to salvation were only typical people. And so we read that" Moses was 
faithful as a servant over all his house( the typical house, the servant house), but 
Christ as a son over his own house, whose house are we, if we hold fast the 
beginning of our confidence firm unto the end." Even the Jews were only 
servants, and not until Christ came were any accepted as God's sons. 


The words of the apostle prove that salvation began with Christ's first advent: 
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to 
be spoken by our Lord." It did not begin to be preached to Adam, nor to Noah, 
nor to Moses, nor in any other day until, as the apostle says, it began to be 
preached by our Lord, "And was confirmed unto ns by them that heard him." 

It is not our suggestion that nobody is on trial today. It is not our suggestion that 
everybody is going to have another chance. That is not the proposition we are 
discussing. The proposition is whether there is anybody that needs a probation 
after death. I am not saying that if it is true of you, as it was true of the apostles, 
"Blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears for they hear," that you will 
have another chance after death to take another glimpse and to hear further of 
divine mercy, if you fail to use your privileges now.( Loud applause.) 

But I am saying that those fifty thousand millions of the human race that have 
gone down into the great prison house of death, where, as our brother quoted, 
"There is neither wisdom, nor knowledge, nor device," those fifty thousand 
millions who have no wisdom, devices nor knowledge in sheol, need some future 
opportunity, or else they have not had a chance at all. Christ's sacrifice was of no 
avail unless they are to have an opportunity to hear, because God's arrangement is 
that "He that believeth shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be condemned." 
There is no suggestion anywhere in the Scriptures that God has 


made provision for salvation in blindness and ignorance and superstition. There 
must be faith, and there must be knowledge preceding faith, or the Scriptures are 


To give the world the full opportunity which Christ purchased for them will 
require an awakening from the dead — a bringing forth from that condition of 
lack of wisdom, device and knowledge to a condition where they shall know, in 
order that they may exercise faith and profit by the opportunities given to them in 
the time when the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the whole earth. Under the 
great sentence which God pronounced upon the first pair the entire race has been 
in death, and the apostle makes the statement most forcefully when he declares, 
"The wages of san is death;" and again, the prophet, "The soul that sinneth it shall 

I do not care how people try to twist those words — they stand! The darkness of 
the dark ages confused the minds of many regarding their meaning, and many of 
us still have difficulty in getting the smoke out of our eyes, but death is the 
sentence, and it is from death that the world must be awakened in order to know 
the privileges of divine grace — not a place of conscious existence, where the 
good are divided into 'one compartment and the evil into another. The one word 
"sheol" in the Hebrew and "hades" in the Greek describes the habitation of both 
good and wicked dead, and there is no Scripture which intimates that there is any 
distinction between the condition of either class while they are in the tomb. We 
had not anticipated that the class of texts produced by our brother would be made 
use of in discussing the present proposition — they properly belong to later 
subjects, and we shall reply to them fully when they come up again in their proper 


What has God been doing during the time he has been waiting for the fulfillment 
of his plan for blessing the world? It would afford me pleasure, if there were time, 
to show that during the dispensation before the flood God left the control of the 
world in the hands of angels, and that the angels were misled, were seduced by 
the sin among mankind, so that they "kept not their first estate," they fell from 
their original pure condition, and through their sin they became the spirits in 
prison of whom Peter speaks — notmen in prison, not men who have gone down 
into sheol, that Christ preached to, but the spirit beings, the angels, who fell from 
the original state of obedience, and have been kept in prison until Christ comes. 

These, prior to their disobedience, were given the opportunity to see to what 
extent they could help mankind. On the contrary, sin proved contagious, and they 
were misled, and their condemnation to chains of darkness resulted. Christ, as the 
real succorer of mankind, preached to them most effectively in his faithful 
obedience to the Father, in contrast to their disobedient course. 

If the whole world up to the time of the gospel dispensation was practically left 
outside of God's plan of salvation, as the Bible history tells us, and if the Jews 
only had any favor, and that was merely a law which was a shadow of good things 
to come, and not the substance, what has been going on during this gospel age? 
We answer, the selection of the seed of Abraham, which is to bless the world. 
Meantime the world is getting a general lesson on every subject, a general 

experience in all the trials and difficulties of life, teaching mankind something 
regarding the extremely undesirable results of sin, but the particular dealing of 
God is with his people, the little flock who are being selected for the blessing of 
the world in the future. 


This is election, as the scriptures teach the doctrine of election; not the selection 
of a few and the damnation of the remainder, but the selection of a little flock for 
the blessing of the remainder of the world, that they might constitute, with Christ, 
the members of a glorious kingdom class, that millennial kingdom for which we 
pray, as taught by our Lord, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it 
is done in heaven." The will of God is not done yet, because the hour has not yet 
come. The clock of the universe has not struck for the bringing of blessings to all 
the families of the earth. 

Our brother calls attention to the parable of the wheat and the tares, and that the 
end of the age would be a time of separation. We agree to all that is written. We 
would like to have you notice that all these parables relate to the kingdom of 
heaven; the kingdom of heaven is likened to thus and so. The church in the 
present time is thus likened, in its preparatory condition, its embryotic condition. 
When the church shall all be selected then it will be the church in glory, bride and 
bridegroom joined together for the blessing of the world. 

But now look at the parable. The wheat are the children of the kingdom. Are 
there many? No, none would say so. Narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and 
few there be that fmd it. Only those are the wheat, the children of the kingdom, 
and these are the only ones referred to in the parable except as the tares come in. 
Now in this wheatfield the enemy sowed tares; he 


brought in a lot of people not in the consecrated class at all, a lot of people who 
associate themselves with the Lord's true people as imitation wheat — notall bad 
people, but deceived, not Christians, and really hypocritical, in that they are 
assuming a false position in connection with the Lord's people. 

This condition has been permitted of God to continue since it began, after the 
apostles fell asleep in death. The harvest is the end of the world — I do not agree 
with our brother that aion means the end of all things in the universe. If you will 
take your Greek-English concordance you will readily fmd every place where the 
word aion occurs; you will fmd that the nearest English translation would be age. 
We have in the Scriptures "aions of aions," and if our brother's position were 
correct there could not be ages of ages. The end of the age will bring a 
manifestation of who are true Christians, who are real, consecrated followers of 
God and who have been hypocritically attaching themselves to these without real 
zeal and consecration. 

In further discussion we think we shall be able to show that our Heavenly Father 
will have a grander outcome in his plan than that which our brother has suggested. 
"My word that goeth forth out of my mouth shall not return unto me void; but it 
shall accomplish that which I please, and prosper in the thing whereunto I sent it." 
If God sent his word to convert the world during this gospel age, then the world 
would have been converted. 

The fact that it is not converted is a proof that God has sent His word for some 
other purpose. By and by, when that word shall have gathered into the gamer the 
faithful wheat class, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the 
kingdom of the Father," for the scattering of the night, the scattering of darkness 
and superstition and evil that now enshroud this world. (Prolonged applause) 

Dr. Eaton then arose and began as follows: 


This is the greatest mix-up of Scriptural quotations I have ever heard. If one 
wants to make a snatch here and another snatch there into a crazy quilt, and call 
that Scripture, it is all right — but it is not Scripture. In that way one can prove 
that the best thing for a man to do is to hang himself at once. 

"Judas went out and hanged himself — Whatsoeverthy hand fmdeth to do, do it 
with thy might — What thou doest, do quickly." (Laughter and applause) 

You can teach anything that way. In all the ages of the world God has shown his 
mercy to men. He has told us that the angels failed in their attempt. If the words 
spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience 
received a just reward, how shall we escape? (Applause) In all ages God has 
given men opportunity. Our first parents had their chance. It was simply a 
question of obedient faith in God. He tells us that nobody is saved except those 
who have had an opportunity for believing in Christ. 
That is a strange thing. What about Abel, Abraham and Noah? 

In all ages salvation has been provided. Paul tells us in the first chapter of 
Romans of the heathen world. "They are simply without excuse." If without 
excuse they have had a chance. There is no need of my making any excuse for 
them, or my brother either. Moreover, the standard of salvation has been in all 
ages according to the condition of each. I grant Adam had not all the knowledge 
we have. There is an evolution in progress, and the conditions and opportunities 
are changing. 

When Cornelius was converted, and the council was called at Jerusalem to 
discuss the case, the only conditions which were prescribed to the Gentiles who 
became converts were that they "should abstain from things strangled, and from 
fornication and from blood." Was that a very high standardto set for Christian 
living? None of us today would think it so, but it was the condition appropriate to 
that time. 


Cornelius was a heathen, but he was a lover of God, and God heard his prayers 
and blessed him, and sent Peter to convey to him the privileges of Christianity. 
What would have become of Cornelius if Peter had not taken the message God 
was sending through him? Would he have been lost? Assuredly not. 

What is the use of saying we must know the complete purpose of God to be 
saved? In all ages the man who has had faith in God is saved. And by faith I mean 
that we believe and love and obey God. That is what the apostle says when he 
says "Without faith it is impossible to please God." 

God can save every heathen on the face of this earth on that basis. He knows 
whether they have the willing spirit or not. It is not necessary that one shall know 
the will of the Lord Jesus in every particular; but it is necessary that some test 
shall manifest the obedience of the individual. "To obey is better than sacrifice." 
That has made it possible for the entire human race who have reached years of 
accountability to fulfill the will of God. 

Why do we send missionaries to heathendom? Because Jesus Christ said so. That 
is all I know about, and that is all anybody knows about it. I am glad that our 
brother made this noble confession and concession, that if we in Allegheny do not 
profit by our opportunities we shall not have any future 


opportunity. If any of you think that this next chance for a thousand years after 
Christ comes is to be your portion, you will miss it. My brother seems to think 
that the full and complete revelation of God must be made in order to give the 
world a fair chance, and that is to be in the millennium; but he has fixed the 
funniest kind of millennium I ever heard of 

The only millennium in the Scriptures is in the 20th chapter of Revelation, and 
there it 

merely tells of the reign of eminent saints and martyrs, and the remaining in death 
of all the rest of mankind. His idea of a millennium, with saints and sinners, joy 
and despair, with a writhing, wriggling mass of two hundred and fifty thousand 
millions on earth, will be a peculiar one indeed. It is not taught in the Scriptures, 
and I absolutely doubt the whole presentation of a millennium. (Loud applause) 

This whole millennium nonsense, I think, is a piece of foolishness we would best 
dismiss first as last. It is not probation at all; devil chained, sin gone, all 
temptation removed, a picnic excursion all 'round indeed it will be. What balmy 
breezes will waft over everybody when such a condition is attained by the world, 
according to our brother's picture! (Prolonged applause) 


Pastor Russell concluded the debate for the day in the following manner: 

When we come to that topic we shall have something to say about the 
millennium that will perhaps not be so easy to dispose of It will come in its 
appropriate time. I want now to call your attention to some of his own texts of 
Scriptures. Our brother tells us practically that we would not need a savior at all. 
Everybody got saved, if the Lord Jesus Christ never came into the world, and had 
never died, and though it is declared that there is no salvation outside of him. I 
say, and the Scriptures declare, that salvation is only attainable through Jesus 
Christ the Redeemer. What ever anybody may get outside of him, they cannot get 
salvation. Ignorance never saved any man, and it never will. 

It is a very popular thought to consider the fatherhood of God and the 
brotherhood of man, and everybody sailing into heaven of some kind, except the 
worst kind of criminals; but that is far from the scriptural idea. The scriptures lay 
down an explicit statement as to the conditions of acceptance with God, and these 
are all based upon faith in Jesus Christ Himself as the only way to salvation and 
eternal happiness. The evolution theory suggests that we are getting along 
amazingly well, that we started out as monkeys, or some lower form of existence, 
and if God will only keep his hands off we will yet become gods. 

The scripture says there was a fall, and that sin brought death, and that Christ 
died for our flus, and that faith in Him and in His blood is the only condition of 
reconciliation with God — "Neither is their salvation in any other." We want to 
stick to the word of God. We agree that Cornelius was a good man; he built a 
synagogue; he showed his good feeling toward God, but was he a Jew? No. Then 
he was a stranger, an alien, a foreigner, without God, having no hope, according 
to the apostle, no matter how good he was. Why then, did God send Peter? 
Because the appropriate time had come. Not until after Christ had died, not until 
after God's covenant with Israel had come to an end could a Gentile be received 
as such into divine favor. 


Seventy symbolical weeks of favor had been promised to the Jews-according to 
Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9); in the middle of the last week (of seven years) 
Messiah was to be cut off, leaving three and a half years of favor still remaining 
to the Jews, during which the Lord instructed the apostles not to go outside of 
Judea; but immediately at the close of that period favor could go to the nations 
about, and Cornelius, as a faithful and earnest seeker after God, was favored of 
the Lord with the first privileges as a Gentile. 

And what was the message God gave him? "Send unto Peter and when he shall 
come he shall tell thee words, whereby thou and thy house shall be saved!" He 
was not saved without these words! (Loud applause) And when Peter came he 
preached Christ and Him crucified. He did not shake hands with Cornelius and 

say, "How are you Cornelius? You have been saved all this time and didn't know 
it!" (Laughter and applause) Cornelius had to believe what everybody must 
believe in order to become a Christian, that Jesus Christ died for his sins, and rose 
again for his justification, because there is no other name given under heaven 
whereby we may be saved. 

The brother quoted another text. "God will have all men to be saved," but he 
didn't give the remainder of the statement — " and to come to a knowledge of the 
truth." How will the heathen come to a knowledge of the truth? They cannot come 
to it in sheol, where there is neither 'wisdom, device nor knowledge of the truth, 
which shall be presented to them when they have been awakened from their 
sleeping condition in sheol, according to the words of the Lord, "The hour is 
coming when all that are in the grave shall hear the voice of the Son of Man and 
come forth — " — come 


forth to have testified to them that Christ died for them, because by that time the 
seed of Abraham will be completed and the blessing of the Lord shall come upon 
the whole earth. 

Our brother has sneered at the millennial age, but we are on the side of the 
prophets, and they declare that the time is coming when the knowledge of the 
Lord shall fill the whole earth as the waters cover the great deep, and none shall 
need say unto his neighbor, know the Lord, for all shall know Him, from the least 
unto the greatest, saith the Lord. (Loud applause) 


Debate on the Proposition thatthe Soul is then Unconscious 




The second of a series of debates between the Rev. E. L. Eaton and Pastor C. T. 
Russell was held last night in Carnegie music hall, Allegheny. The big hall was 
crowded. The gallery was full, all the seats in the body of the auditorium were 
occupied, and in the rear aisle more than 100 persons were standing. The big 
audience remained until the last. The Rev. Dr. Henry D. Lindsay, pastor of the 
North Presbyterian church, presided over the meeting. 

The topic debated was the proposition: "The scriptures clearly teach that the souls 
of the dead are unconscious while their bodies are in the grave." Mr. Russell took 
the affirmative side. Dr. Eaton denied the proposition. Each speaker spoke 50 
minutes in turn and then each had 10 minutes for reply to the other. 

The third of the debates will be held tomorrow evening, when this proposition 
will be debated: "The scriptures teach that all of the saved will become spirit 
beings and after the general judgment will enter heaven." Dr. Eaton will take the 
affirmative side and Mr. Russell the negative. 


Last night's debate opened at 8 o'clock, Dr. Lindsay calling the meeting to order 
and saying a few words in explanation. Having the affirmative Mr. Russell led off 
as follows: 


Truth is stranger than fiction, is an old adage, but, nevertheless, a true one. We 
expect to show you this evening that the truth on the subject under discussion was 
lost sight of during the "Dark Ages," and that fiction has taken the place of truth 
in the minds of the people. I ask you, therefore, to have patience while you hear 
the testimony of the Scriptures, and that we remember that there is no one in this 
world competent to give a decision on this subject unless our heavenly Father has 
given the decision in the Scriptures. 

The fiction is that which is entirely unsupported by the word of God, but which is 
generally recognized amongst Christian people in respect to the condition of 
mankind in death. The general view is that the moment of death is the turning 
point, and that all mankind at death either pass into a kind of awful misery, such 
as our brother described on Sunday, when a drop of water would be a tremendous 
blessing, and that a comparatively small number are fit, have characters formed, 
and are fit to be in the presence of God and the holy angels. That they are a little 
flock, and that the great mass of mankind, not having formed a character which 
God could approve, are unworthy and unready to enter into the glorious things of 
God, is, I think, an almost indisputable proposition. We are not to suppose for a 
moment that heaven is a great school in which people shall piece out the 
information and experiences of this present life, and there form character; but, on 
the contrary, there shall "enter into it nothing that defileth" or that would be 
imperfect in any sense, and, hence, according to our friends's consideration, only 
a little flock shall get to glory and all the remainder of mankind, hundreds of 
thousands and millions, are surely on the way to an eternity of trouble. Our 
Catholic friends help out the 


matter a little by saying there will be a purgatory condition, and that after 
spending thousands of years there, they will be something better, as they make 


Dr. Eaton suggested to us Sunday afternoon that those going to their future 
condition at death shall have no chance of change after they get there. The whole 
matter is settled; whoever is fit to go to the right side of the gulf stays there, and 

whoever goes to the wrong side never gets farther. According to the great 
majority of Christians the most of mankind are pretty sure to go to the bad place, 
for the most of them have never even heard the only name given amongst men 
whereby they must be saved. Brother Eaton tells us they are prepared to go there, 
even if they have never heard the name of Jesus. That is a very different gospel 
than I ever heard, but I think it is to be credited to the brother's love of mankind, 
in that he was unwilling to think of the majority of the world suffering torture, 
even though they didn't know Christ, and he must get them into a good place 
without the help of the Redeemer. I cannot agree with his head, but I believe he 
has a good heart. (Applause) 

On the side of the truth, the Scriptures teach that the whole world of mankind 
when they die are dead. It seems a strange proposition to have to make to an 
intelligent audience, that when a man dies he is dead; but, nevertheless, it is 
necessary to show this, because the majority of people, under the dominion of 
tradition from the dark ages, have come to the conclusion that when a man dies he 
is more alive than he ever was. (Laughter) The Scriptures teach that he is dead, 
and only when he gets a resurrection will he have reached a life condition. The 
resurrection and the atonement for sin go hand in hand in the Scriptures-they are 
the two most important themes of the Bible! The atonement, as the means of 
release from sin by the death of Christ, and the resurrection as the time when the 
release shall be accomplished by the power of the Redeemer. 


We wish to show that it is the divine plan and teaching of the Lord's word, that 
all go to sheol; the good and the bad; all have been redeemed from sheol, and all 
shall return from it. "As by one man's disobedience sin entered into the world," so 
through the death of Jesus Christ life and redemption have been found. As all go 
into sheol, and as all have been redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ from sheol, so 
all are in due time to be called forth from sheol. Sheol is not a place of life and 
activity. Our dear brother quoted a text on Sunday from Ecclesiastes in which it is 
distinctly declared that there is neither wisdom, device nor knowledge in the 
grave, whither thou goest. The word "grave" is "sheol," as our brother then 
declared. If there is no wisdom in the grave, the good cannot know anything there; 
likewise the wicked cannot know anything; if no knowledge is there, they cannot 
enjoy it, and if there is no device there, they cannot do anything. There is no pain 
nor trouble nor torment there. 

Our proposition that death is death, and that our dear ones, when they pass from 
us, are really dead, that they are neither alive with the angels nor with demons in a 
place of despair, is the teaching of the Scripture. It will not do for us to say that 
we prefer this or that arrangement of this matter; we must accept the Scriptural 
teaching as to God's plan, and whether it is agreeable to our minds or not, it is our 
duty to realize that God will not alter his plan one iota for our preference. 


If we might feel a preference that our friends were in glory immediately at death, 
think, on the other hand, that there is good reason for being glad that those who 
we know are wicked and not fit for blissful conditions are not suffering the pains 
of everlasting torture as soon as they go out from this life; and we must admit that 
most of our friends and relatives have died out of Christ, have not lived up to that 
only standard of Scriptures which could gain for them an entrance into heavenly 
conditions — " sanctified, and meet for the Master's use." 

Since the Master exhorted that his disciples should be "sanctified through Thy 
truth; Thy word is truth," all of us should be studious to obey the truth, 
remembering the other statement of the Scriptures, "He that loveth or maketh a 
lie" is not of the Lord. 

I call your attention to the fact that all Christian people are practically agreed 
respecting original sin, that .it is taught in the Scriptures, that it is taught by the 
Apostle Paul, in Romans 5: 12, "By one man's disobedience sin entered into the 
world, and death by sin." He does not say by one man's disobedience sin entered 
into the world, and eternal torment as the result of sin; but he does say death is the 
result of sin. The great error was made in the dark ages, the time when they 
burned each other, and gouged out each other's eyes saying, "It is better to give 
them a little torment now, to save them from falling into God's hands after a 
while, and having them endure an endless torture of a far worse kind. 

The record in Genesis is that God created our first 


parents in his own image and likeness, and placed them upon trial for life. He 
gave them a command, and made a test to them of obedience, not whether they 
would commit murder or villainy, but whether they would be obedient to him, 
that they might live. If they would disobey him they should die! 


They disobeyed — weare not excusing them; God justly put upon them the 
penalty of their sin. But the question is, what was the penalty for sin? Was it any 
kind of torment? No, the Scriptures declare most explicitly, "The wages of sin is 
death," not torment at all. We read the account in Genesis 2, concerning the 
command given to Adam. If God intended that his child should go to eternal 
torment on account of that act of disobedience, why did he not say so? Could a 
sane man give an excuse for an Almighty, heavenly. Father dealing with his child 
in paradise, and deceiving him into thinking that the penalty was something else 
than what he really intended, if he intended on account of that sin to turn him over 
to devils, to roast and boil and burn him to all eternity? Is there anything of that 
kind in the record? I have not seen it. 

Theologians have taken this wrong view of the matter from the expression "in the 
day," as it occurs here, and they weave various kinds of interpretations about the 
day mentioned; but we find it very plain when we read Peter's explanation, "A day 
with the Lord is as a thousand years." Here is the statement of the Lord in Genesis 
to Adam that he should die within a day, and he did die within the thousand-year 
day of the Lord's reckoning. 

After the sin the Lord pronounced the sentence upon the guilty pair, a sentence 
which extended to every member of their race: "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt 
thou return." But does it not say something else about that in the Scriptures? Does 
it not say that they would not die? Yes, Satan appeared to Eve, and guaranteed, 
"Ye shall not surely die," and as a matter of fact do we not see that the whole 
world is believing Satan, that when a man dies he will be more alive than ever, 
and disbelieving God's statement, that when a man dies he is truly dead. 


We read of the curse all through the Scriptures. What does it mean? It means this 
sentence of death which came by disobedience, on account of which the whole 
human family is groaning and travailing in pain together, as declared by the 
apostle in Rom. 8: 17-23-they are suffering the effects of the curse, mentally, 
morally and physically, all leading to the ultimate end, death itself "The soul that 
sinneth it shall die," and "the wages of sin is death," are the emphatic scriptural 

Where is the hope? In the statement, "God so loved the world that He gave His 
only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" — here 
referring again to the terms of the sentence — not eternal torment, but perishing, 
death — " but have everlasting life." The sentence of perishing was eternal, were it 
not for the fact that God provided a redemption through Jesus Christ, who is 
represented in the Scriptures as "the Lamb slain" (taking the place in death of the 
condemned race) "from the foundation of the world." 

The release from this death condition is to come through a resurrection of the 
dead. There could not be a resurrection of the dead if there is nobody dead. It is 
only those who are dead who have part in the resurrection of the dead. This is 
what the Scriptures call to our attention as the good tidings of salvation, 
deliverance from the penalty upon us of eternal death. The whole stress lies upon 
the work of Jesus Christ; if there had been no sacrifice for sins then the sentence 
would have remained, the penalty or curse would have everlastingly continued. 
So the apostle suggests that "He is the propitiation for our (the church's) sins, and 
not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." How many does that 
leave out in this great salvation, which began to be spoken by our Lord? 
(Applause) It was never spoken before; there never was a hope in the resurrection 
set forth in a definite way, because the ransom price had not been paid previously. 
The most that could be done was to give a suggestive hope, as the Lord did to 
Abraham, "In thy seed (when your seed shall come) all the families of the earth 
shall be blessed." 


We speak of "being saved," but only in the reckoned sense. Actually we are still 
subject to the pains, distresses and difficulties incident to the penalty of death; but 
those who are trusting in the Lord are accounted as saved from the death penalty, 
and are looking for the blessing of the salvation "which shall be revealed in us .... 
in due time — inthe resurrection. We have death working in us actually, but the 
life through Christ, by faith, by trust in the life-giver. 

If the penalty of sin had been eternal torment then would our dear Redeemer have 
gone to that condition in order to be our ransom price, if He would suffer in our 
stead. But the Scriptures declare, "Christ died for our sins, and rose again for our 
justification." In the present time only a small class have ever come to an 
opportunity to know of the life giver; very few, and 


those only since the first advent have ever heard the name of the Lord Jesus. 
God's purpose is that in due time there may come forth, for God's will is that all 
may be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." Not saved with eternal 
salvation, but saved from this destruction in death, which Christ redeemed them 
from with His own death. They are saved in the sense that they will come forth 
from the tomb and have the opportunity of accepting the only name whereby we 
must be saved. 

I agree with my brother Eaton entirely that all the dead go to sheol, but this is a 
word very little understood amongst people except Hebrew scholars. The Hebrew 
word stands for "the hidden state." In the old Testament Scriptures, the authorized 
version, the word sheol is 31 times rendered hell; the same word sheol is 31 times 
rendered grave; in other words, the grave is hell, and hell is the grave. It is a pretty 
dark place, damp, cold and lonely, which is sometimes pictured to us as so hot! 
Jacob, speaking about his son. Gen. 37: 35, says, "I will go down into the grave to 
my son mourning" — otherwise translated. "I will go down into hell to my son 


And again, "O, that thou wouldst hide me in the grave" — the translators might 
just as well have translated it hell; but it didn't refer to the theological hell; Job 
was suffering with his boils and disasters, and was longing for release; then he 
called to God to hide him in the grave; "Then thou shalt call and I will answer 
thee, for thou shalt have desire unto the works of thy hands." He was going down 
to hell, and yet he knew that in due time God would answer him and bring him 
forth — when? In the resurrection. 

"In the grave (sheol) who shall give thee thanks?" David evidently didn't know 
anything about a compartment in hell where he would sing praises to God. Psalm 

16: 10, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol)" — Christ'ssoul was not left 
in the grave, and so Peter applies it in the Book of Acts, stating that it was not 

David speaking of himself, but being a prophet, he spoke of Christ. God raised 
him from the dead after he was three days in the grave. Psalm 18: 5. Psalm 31: 17. 
"Let them be silent in the grave" — insheol. Then there will be no cursing of God 
and blaspheming and shouting at all! Psalm 49: 15, "Like sheep they are laid in 
the grave" — insheol — " their beauty shall consume in the grave" — insheol — 
" death shall feed upon them." When we understand that sheol is a part of the 
same sentence of death that came upon all, and that David here desired that God 
would raise him up out of the power of it, by a resurrection from sheol, we get the 
scriptural thought in harmony with the entire word of God. Again, "Whatsoever 
thy hand fmdeth to do, do it with thy might, for there is neither wisdom, device 
nor knowledge in the grave whither thou goest." Isaiah 38: 10, "I shall go to the 
gates of the grave. The grave cannot praise thee as I do this day." 


This occurs in Hezekiah's prayer, when the prophet told him he was to die. He did 
not think it was a good place to go to, and God did not inform him of a 
misconception regarding sheol, by assuring him that sheol was a desirable, fit and 
proper condition, and a place of bliss and happiness; but God answered 
Hezekiah's prayer and gave him 15 more years of life in which to praise God, 
knowing that that could not be done in sheol. Psalm 6: 5. "In death there is no 
remembrance of thee; in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Nobody. 

There must be a resurrection before they can give God thanks. "Wilt thou show 
wonders to the dead? Shall the dead praise thee? Shall the loving kindness be 
declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall wonders be known 
in the dark and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" The grave is the 
land of forgetfulness. Psalm 146: 4, "His breath goeth forth; he returneth to his 
earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." How much can we think about then? 
Ecc. 9: 5, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything." 
Ecc. 9: 10, 12: 7; Isaiah 38: 18; Deut. 31: 16. 

Then a few texts in which this matter is spoken of as a sleep. Deut. 31: 16; 1 
Kings 2: 10, 11: 43; 2 Chron. 12: 16; 2 Chron. 21: 1. Some of these men were 
good, and some bad, but they all went to sleep when they died. Matt. 9: 24, "The 
maid is not dead but sleepeth." John 11: 11, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go 
that I may awake him out of sleep." 1 Thess. 9: 13, "I would not have you 
ignorant concerning them which are asleep." "Them which sleep also in Jesus will 
God bring from the dead by Him." Psalm 17: 15; Dan. 12: 2. Of David it is 
declared, "He is not ascended into heaven, but his sepulchre is with us unto this 
day." He is still asleep; he will be satisfied when he awakes in the morning. Job 
14: 14, "All the days of my appointed time shall I wait until my change come; 
thou wilt call and I will answer; and thou shall have respect unto the work of thy 
hands." In the resurrection morning the Lord will call Job and all others from their 
sleeping condition, in sheol, in the tomb, in their present state of oblivion. 



Dr. Eaton, in denying the propostion, said: 

Our friend Russell has made an excellent speech, and he has done exceedingly 
well. It is surprising how much there is on both sides of this proposition, and you 
have to decide it according to the best evidence we have. This subject in the main 
has been thoroughly well treated, and I have been impressed with the case as he 
has stated it. I will point out a few errors, however, as we proceed. 

In the first place, these Old Testament Scriptures are somewhat obscure. The men 
themselves did not have a very clear understanding concerning the matter. We 
have had a very full array of Old Testament texts, but we cannot rest the case 
entirely on any class of statements, for we shall find texts on both sides. We must 
realize that revelation is progressive and growing and evolving, and the New 
Testament, the last word that God has had to say to men, is very much more 
distinct than the first. There is a good deal of indistinctness about the early 
addresses, but they grow clearer as time advances. So we have to interpret the old 
by the new. The matter of sleep: I grant that death is often spoken of in that way, 
but only in figurative sense. We often speak of death as a sleep, but did you ever 
hear anyone speak of the sleep of death? I never did. All poetical minds tried to 
represent the harsh and severe things of death by the poetical term sleep. A 
precious friend died after a long sickness and I telegraphed to a friend far away, 
"Mary fell asleep at midnight," but I did not believe in soul sleeping, and I didn't 
believe she was asleep. Everybody uses that expression. Jesus said to the 
disciples, "Lazarus is sleeping, and I go to awake him out of sleep." When they 
showed a misunderstanding he said plainly, literally, "Lazarus is dead," he was 
dead — he was not asleep. When Jesus wanted to explain a thing he dropped the 
figure and spoke in plain terms; and that is all there is of it. 


When God made Adam He formed his body of the dust of the earth; that was his 
body, his animal body, which could not continue forever alive, unless God 
specially intervened, through the sacramental use of the tree of life, or some other 
way. He also breathed into his nostrils the breath of life or lives, and man became 
a living soul. That soul is the thing created in God's likeness and image, and the 
likeness consists of the qualities or elements of that soul, not the body. That 
likeness consists of the intellect, sensibility and will, as all psychologists today 
agree, that the human soul is thus composed, possessing the power to decide, 
choose and act. In that respect a soul is like God. We can think God's thoughts, 
because he gave us a thinker, a soul, to do it with; hence, this thinker is in His 
likeness, and this thinker is immortal; immortal in this sense only, that it was 
made to live. It is never called immortal and there is no such expression in the 
Scriptures as "immortal soul" but the expression "a living soul" does occur 
frequently — I mean a soul that is made to live until something kills it and 
prevents its further existence. 

When that first soul was created and sinned, the penalty given was death. Death 
to the body — death to the soul also; physical death and moral death. 
Annihilation? Extinction? No. Christ said to the Jews, "Let the dead bury their 
dead." What did he mean? Let those who are morally dead bury those who are 
physically dead. If he did not mean that, what did he mean? Death of the body is 
only one element of the sentence; physical, animal death is one element; the 
second element is the death of the soul, namely, moral death, depravity. "Awake 
thou that sleepest, and Christ shall give thee life." What sort of death are you to 
rise from? Moral death; the curse that came upon all men. There is another kind of 
death, eternal death. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." 
Over against eternal life stands death, eternal death — whatever that may mean. 
The one is the antithesis of the other. 


Now we will talk a little about the intermediate state. That is the state of 
conscious existence between death and the resurrection for the entire human race, 
in sheol, in the Old Testament, and hades of the New Testament. The reformers 
rejected the doctrine of the intermediate state, because they feared it would bring 
in the doctrine of purgatory and future probation. I do not teach that it is a state of 
probation at all, or of purgatory. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is based upon 
this, that Christ did not die for the sins of all men — thathe paid the penalty for 
the great sins, the mortal sins, and that to the church is left the work of providing 
satisfaction for the venial small sins. It is not in the Scriptures at all. We are saved 
through Jesus Christ from all things from which we could not be justified by the 
law of Moses. 

Our diagram show the features illustrating the intermediate state; these diagrams 
are a good thing to help the eye. Here a dark wedge begins immediately after 
infancy and increasingly separates those inclined toward righteousness and those 
inclined toward evil, the saints from sinners. It is only a speck at the beginning, 
but is wide and deep at the end of life, and life ends every prospect of altering the 
situation. There 


is a good deal of inspiration in this map — Edisonsaid inspiration consisted of 2 
per cent inspiration and 98 per cent perspiration. 

The old King James version of the Bible, which translates sheol 65 times and 
translates it every time, never transliterates it, 3 1 times hell, 3 1 times grave and 
three times pit, every time wrongly. The revised version does a little better; but 
the American revision never translates sheol once nor hades once, but uses 
common sense and transliterates. Sheol is an English word, just as Jehovah, or 
Hallelujah, and hades is an English word similarly. Everybody should know what 
these words mean. They do not mean heaven, because the Hebrew word for 
heaven, chayin, is used 720 times in the Old Testament quite independently. It 
never means grave; it has no physical idea attached to it. Qeber is the word used 

for grave. It means just what it says, the place and state into which the entire 
human race go when they die; not heaven, not hell, but sheol. The Hebrews did 
not know what that state was. 


Our brother gives a good many texts which give an obscure idea of their 
meaning, but there are a few texts which show what it does mean clearly. The 
Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, prepared for the Greeks by 
learned Hebrew-Greek scholars three centuries before Christ, almost always used 
the word hades in translating sheol in the Greek, and hades means the place where 
people go when they die. You cannot get away from that. (Loud applause) I might 
quote a lot of texts which make that very clear. If it was the grave, why didn't the 
Hebrews translate it with that word when making their Greek translation? 

"I will go down to sheol to my son mourning." Old Jacob had just been told his 
son had been eaten up with wild beasts, and he believed it. In other words, this 
was a grief which he said would kill him, and he would go down to his son, he 
would die of grief, and he would meet his son. The son's body was in the stomach 
of a lion. (Laughter) Did he expect to crawl into the stomach of a lion to meet his 
son? He thought there was some conscious state of existence where he would go 
to meet his son. 

"Like a flock they are laid in the grave." That translation is simply awful! A flock 
of sheep laid in the gravel A poetical Hebrew writing such a thing as that! 
(Laughter) Read the revised version: "Like a flock of sheep they are appointed to 
sheol" — everybody. Like a flock of sheep, excited, and following their leader over 
the highest corner of the fence, they are rushing to sheol. 

"Whatsoever thy hand fmdeth to do with thy might, for there is neither wisdom, 
device nor knowledge in the grave." Does that mean you will go to sleep? Well 
what motive have you to do with your might if that is true? The idea is that 
whatsoever thy hand fmdeth to do to win the favor of God do it with your might, 
for you cannot do it in sheol. To read it as in the authorized version is simply a 
delusion. I have a right to manufacture Scripture in this sense, upon the authority 
of the Apostles Peter and Paul. Peter said: "He that prophesieth must prophesy 
according to the analogia of faith." You cannot take Scriptures and read them 
against the whole word of God. Peter says: "No prophecy is of any private 
interpretation." The word of God teaches that there is no chance to be saved in 
sheol, therefore do the best you can in this life, and do it at once. 


Psalm 55: 15: "Let them go down alive into sheol." Our brother says they always 
died. "The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God." 
That is not a very determinative text, however, it might do on either side. "If I 
make my bed in hell, lo, thou art there; there shall thy hand lead me." God is 
everjrwhere, and all conscious beings could go to Him." Jonah's nautical 
experience would be in harmony with this. He found God in the uttermost part of 

the sea. "Hell from beneath is moved for thee, to meet thee at thy coming." This is 
the picture of the great jamb ouree in hell, the taunting, laughing devils greeted 
him with their derisions. A scene like that in the grave? That is a great place to 
look for it. O, my brother, you will have to give it up. 

The dark side of sheol: Tartarus, the lower sheol. "Out of the belly of hell cried I, 
and thou heardest my voice." I maintain that Jonah was dead, and although I 
could not prove it, unless this Scripture proves it, I think he went into the sea and 
sank there, died and went to sheol, and after an interview with Jehovah received 
inspiration to go to Nineveh. He was not unconscious. He was more alive than he 
ever was. "The waters compassed me about. Weeds were wrapped about my 
head." This is a reference to his lying at the bottom of the sea. The Hebrews held 
the idea of sheol vaguely, indistinctly, so that we cannot get it clearly from the old 
Testament. It is very doubtful if you could find immortality in the old Testament. 
But we have no difficulty when we get to the new. 

When sheol means hell it is always accompanied by a modifying word, "Hell 
from beneath is moved." "Thou deliverest my soul from the lowest hell." "Her 
guests are in the depths of hell." 



Sheol is not an eternal state, just as the diagram indicates. "Thou wilt not leave 
my soul there. God's power goes down and brings hi. 'm up. Our brother thinks 
there is a long sleep before that time, but my idea is that the conscious state of 
existence continues until the resurrection. 

We come now to the most complete and perfect representation in the world in the 
sixteenth chapter of Luke, the rich man and Lazarus. "In hades he lifted up his 
eyes." He was on the lower side. A great gulf was fixed, so that he could not pass 
over, nor Lazarus pass to him. Every element of hades and sheol is all in that 
parable, and though our brother strives tooth and nail to get some other mystical 
meaning out of it, it is a clear study of character. The gulf of character is there, 
that separates the human race into saints and sinners in this life. 

My answer to soul-sleeping is the intermediate state. If anybody can 
understanding^ study the intermediate state and fairly grasp it and stick to soul- 
sleeping he can do more than I. There is a conscious state for all mankind. He 
goes on living; he will continue to live until something will stop that existence, 
and there is nothing in the soul itself that can bring about that. 

"I saw a pale horse, whose name was death, and hades followed with him." Death 
goes to take the bodies and hades to take the souls. "Death and hades gave up the 
dead that were in them." Death gives up the bodies and hades the soul." "The last 
enemy that shall be destroyed is death." "Death and hades were cast into the lake 
of fire;" that is the end of the intermediate state. I agree with our brother in his 
opinion that everybody has not gone to heaven. The theologians are foolishly 

giving us a lot of rot in preaching folks to heaven. Every funeral you go to the 
minister declare that the dead are in heaven. John Wesley said no human being 
has gone to heaven. He said they went to hades. "No man hath ascended into 
heaven." — John3: 13. "No man hath seen God at any time." Jesus knew what He 
was talking about. Our brother quoted, "David is not yet ascended into heaven." 
Nobody has gone to heaven; nobody will go to heaven until after the resurrection 
and judgment. Then comes the eternal state of heaven and gehenna. But we are 
not going into that now; that will come later. 


Pastor Russell, in reply to Dr. Eaton's contention, said: 

I am very glad there are some points of agreement; that our brother believes that 
the scriptures are true, that all go into sheol, and that the word hades of the New 
Testament is the exact equivalent of the word sheol in the Old. The two words are 
identical in their meaning, the one from the Greek and the other from the Hebrew. 
Whatever is true in respect to the use of the Hebrew word is true also in 
respect to the Greek word. Therefore if there is neither wisdom nor knowledge 
nor device in sheol, neither is their wisdom, knowledge or device in hades, 
whither thou goest. 

This is a very interesting chart, but one of the most interesting features is that 
there is very little Scripture about it. You notice that our dear brother knows all 
about this matter — I do not know how. (Laughter and applause) He has pointed 
out that here is Tartarus, and there is something else, but how does he know? 
What do the Scriptures say? The word Tartarus occurs only once in the New 
Testament, and it is never associated with hades at all. It refers to the condition in 
which the spirits in prison are. And that gulf, which our dear brother has chosen 
for his whole theory! If that parable were not there, I am wondering what our dear 
brother would have done! (Laughter and applause) .We are going to hold that 
parable, it is too good to give right away. But we want you to think of this. That 
poor rich man in the parable has some resemblances to every one of you. I see 
some here with white linen; I see by your aces that you have fared sumptuously 
today. Those were two of the items which were recorded against the rich man. 
You have no sores, nor are you reclining at the rich man's gate. 


Now watch out! If you are going to apply the parable as our brother has you will 
have to apply to yourselves the fate you give the rich man! Our brother thought I 
was fighting tooth and nail about this parable, but this is the first time I have 
mentioned it. He has been the one who has been worrying about it. Wait awhile, 
dear friends, and meantime think that to carry that precious cup of water across 
the gulf, when a whole bucketful would evaporate before it got to hades, would be 
a most extraordinary procedure. 

Our brother wants to know whether Jacob looked to go to his son Joseph in the 
belly of the lion. By no means. We did not claim that the word grave is the full 
translation of the word sheol; we do claim that grave is a better translation of it 
than hell. "The nearest English thought is "the hidden state." Jacob did expect to 
go into the death state to his son, because he anticipated that that was where his 
son had gone. If you will take an unabridged dictionary you will find that at the 
time of the translating of our Bible in the 


old version they used this word "hell" in a very general way. A man would speak 
of "helling" his house — hemeant that he was going to thatch it. Or he would 
speak of "helling" his potatoes — heintended to cover them in a pit, in a dark, 
damp condition, without any suggestion of heat or light or intelligence. We shall 
have something to say about this entire matter, and a satisfactory explanation of 
the rich man and Lazarus in due time. 

I agree very well with our brother regarding the "flock of sheep." They do rush to 
sheol. The people are all rushing to the tomb, the place into which they have been 
consigned until the time for awakening of them all, the dismal, dark place, where 
"the dead cannot praise thee; in sheol who shall give thee thanks! " 


The "lowest hell" signifies the most complete destruction. "Hell from beneath is 
moved to meet thee at thy coming." You will see, if you will take your Bibles, and 
read carefully this statement in Ezekiel 14, that the whole matter is figurative 
language; it represents the fall of a great dynasty, a great government, just the 
same exactly as the Lord spoke of coming upon Capernaum — "exalted to heaven 
— cast down to hell" — brought down to a death condition, to utter overthrow. 
Just so with Babylon, which is now completely desolated without inhabitant. 

"Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "0 death where is thy 
sting; O grave where is thy victory?" The prophet points out that the time is 
coming when hades is to be destroyed. How will he destroy hades? By bringing 
the people out of it. "All that are in their graves" shall be awakened, and there 
won't be hades any longer. God pointed out in advance how the great work of 
Christ should be to redeem the world by the sacrifice of Himself, and that having 
given the sacrifice on behalf of the whole world He should release the world from 
hades, and grant to all men the opportunity of life. To some special ones, who are 
specially favored, there will be particular privileges — the Lord is blessing you 
and me with the knowledge of His plan so that we may be reckoned as already 
passing from death unto life, but the time for the world to have the opportunity of 
coming out will be future, when their time of resurrection shall come, the general 
resurrection. The church shall have part in the first resurrection, and the world in 
the general resurrection. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 
"0 death where is thy sting, grave where is thy victory?" This sting has been on 
the race all the time since the fall, it is stinging the whole world, but in God's due 
time it shall be removed. 


Dr Eaton in closing the evening's debate said: 

It is very interesting to see how very much in common we hold in this doctrine of 
the intermediate state. The only question is whether it is a conscious existence or 
not, and, of course, that has its tremendous influences on the other discussions to 
follow. I did my best to bring him out on the rich man and Lazarus, but I could 
not. He won't say what he thinks and he is very wise that he does not. We will get 
it, however, in due time, and he hopes I will be out of breath by that time. If he 
could only make a figure out of it he would be all right. He says we don't know 
anything about Tartarus? The word is used as a verb in 1 Pet. 3:18, and means 
that God tartarused them to hades. Tartarus is the hell of hades. All Greek 
scholars knew of Tartarus, but they thought of it as eternal, while we see that it is 
only until the resurrection. 

The Lord's words to the thief, "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." That 
was a conscious state of existence, not the grave. Paul says, "I knew a man in 
Christ, caught up to the third heaven" — the throne of God. And then he goes on, 
"I knew a man who was caught up to Paradise, and heard unspeakable words." In 
those words Paul describes two experiences, two visions, one in heaven, the other 
in the Paradise of hades. 

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life that grows in the 
Paradise of God." Peter says the soul of Jesus went to hades, in quoting the 16th 
Psalm, while His body went to the tomb. Jesus himself said He would go to 
Paradise in speaking to the thief And Jesus said immediately upon His 
resurrection to one of the disciples, "Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to 
My Father." He had gone to hades, to Paradise, He did not go to the Father. Is not 
that right? Paradise is the intermediate state, where all the good go at death. 
Tartarus is the intermediate state where all the evil go at the same time. 



Both Speakers Make Telling Points and Earn Much Applause 




Standing room was at a premium in Allegheny Carnegie Music hall last night 
where the third joint debate between the Rev. Dr. E. L. Eaton of the North 
Avenue Methodist Episcopal church, Allegheny, and Pastor C. T. Russell of the 
Bible House congregation opened. The entire floor, gallery and the vestibule 
leading to the big hall were crowded with people. The audience was probably the 
largest since the debate began last Sunday afternoon. 

The Rev. J. W Sproull, D. D., presided at the meeting, and after announcing the 
subject for discussion introduced the debaters. Besides the discussion of the 
subject, there was a lively and learned debate on the Hebrew words, their 
definition and application as used in the Scriptures. During the discussion the 
original subject was almost lost sight of for a time while the speakers discussed 
Hebrew words. 

The usual devotional exercises preceded the discussion and a number of hymns 
were rendered during and at the close of the speeches. Prof B. Frank Walters of 
the Bible House congregation, presided at the organ. The stage was occupied by a 
large number of ministers. 

The subject of the debate last night was that "The Scriptures clearly teach that all 

of the saved will become spirit beings, and after the general judgment will enter 


Dr. Eaton affirmed and Pastor Russell denied. Dr. Eaton opened the affirmative 

side as follows: 


Mark Hopkins was one of the most distinguished teachers that this country ever 
produced, and he had a way of teaching what he thought was truth and what was 
false in evolution, and I will give you a little idea of his that will become the basis 

of the doctrine I am going to speak of tonight, namely, regeneration. His idea was 
that the first great law of nature, the most extensive and universal, was the law of 
gravity, and the next law of nature, not so extensive, but more intensive, was the 
law of cohesion, which held the particles of matter together. Gravity pulls down, 
but cohesion holds together in spite of gravity, so that the former is a law higher 
than the latter, but does not grow out of the latter, it contains all there is in gravity 
plus something more, and that something more is from above, and comes by a 
creative act. It is not therefore evolution, that is, atheistic evolution, but evolution 
by creation. 

Next above cohesion we get chemical affinity, higher than cohesion, containing 
all there is of cohesion, gravity and chemical affinity plus something more, and 
that something is from above, by creation. Next is the law of vegetable life. We 
have the vegetables that contain all tile first three principles in operation, and 
something above, the product of a creative act. When we reach life, we reach the 
great question that has been occupying the minds of scientists specially for the 
past fifty years and particularly the last twenty-five. Such men as Hegal, Huxley, 
Spencer, M. Pasteur and Tyndall, keenest brains, are practically agreed that life 
comes from preexistent life, that dead matter cannot become living matter until it 
comes under the influence of matter previously alive. Life is a creation from God. 
I am an evolutionist of that kind, theistic evolution. Science stands by that, and I 
stand by science. 


Next above life is the production of species. Charles Darwin spent his life in 
trying to show that species originated by natural causes, but Huxley before his 
death, stated that to place Darwin's doctrine beyond a possibility of assault, ought 
to have shown two things, namely, that varieties within one-species could be so 
widely divergent by raising or breeding as to be no longer fertile one with 
another; secondly, that hybrids could be made fertile. Neither of these 
propositions is sustained, and Darwin's doctrine falls to the ground. 

Next above the animal kingdom is man; his body, 


which is like every other animal, only a little better built, although I have seen 
some men that do not seem to be so handsome as dogs, and some women that are 
more homely than horses. But man was made of the dust of the ground, of 
material things, just as the tower animals were. In many respects the animals 
excel as animals, not in all; the superiority of man is not in this physical nature 
chiefly. I thoroughly believe the word of God, which states that he formed man's 
body of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and 
man became a living soul. He breathed something into that body, the breath of 
life. In the Hebrew whenever animals are said to have the breath of life it is 
always the word ruach chai, although it is never said to have been breathed into 
animals; when man is said to have the breath of life it is always nishma chai? All 
men and animals died at the flood "in which was the breath of-life" — 

nishmamach chai — thecombination showing that destruction of both animals and 


The creation of man in the image and likeness of God signifies that God 
constituted man in his basic faculties like God — hehad sensibilities like God; he 
had a will like God; all the beings in the universe can think, feel and act, believe, 
love and obey; all the beings in the universe that believe God, love God and obey 
God, are God's children, wherever they live. To have consecrated that intellect to 
God, by believing in him, and that heart to God by loving him, and that will to 
God by obeying him, constitutes them God's children, whether they were bom in 
heathen or Christian lands. If they did that, they are God's children. That is what 
Peter said to Cornelius when he said, "In all nations he that feareth God is 
working righteousness and is accepted by Him." 

But man does not stop when he has a soul. That soul is a mortal soul, in the sense 
I described the other night, in the sense that there is no self-existent condition; in 
the sense that it was made to live, and not to die; in this only is it properly a living 
soul — itis nowhere in the Scriptures called an immortal soul. The soul's nature is 
to live, and therefore it cannot sleep or go into none-existence; it is a living soul. 
Originally it was sinless, but it lost that, as our brother taught the other night. 
Depravity has smitten the race. What is depravity? It is a moral twist. Depravity 
does not add any faculty; it does not add any intellectual or physical or moral 
faculty; but it does subtract, blur, weaken 

them. We all come into the world with that twist, but, thank God, we come with a 
Redeemer already provided. 

When a man builds a state he founds a prison; when God established the world 
He provided a Redeemer. My brother said that in Christ, as the seed, all the 
families of the earth shall be blessed; they are being blessed. There would have 
been no one blessed if it had not been for Christ. God was not mean enough to 
make Adam and Eve the father and mother of the race without a Redeemer, and 
therefore He has blessed every man, woman and child of the race. They are all 
blessed in Christ. 


The spiritual nature comes by regeneration. The animal condition is gravity, 
cohesion, chemical affinity, vegetable life, plus; man is animal, vegetable and all 
below it, plus. Plus what? Plus the soul. But does he stop when he gets a soul? 
No; man is soul, animal, vegetable, and all below, plus a spirit nature. How does 
spirit come to him? By regeneration. God did not make him a spirit being 
originally; man was originally a bichotonate — having two parts, having a body 
and soul. When he becomes regenerated he is a trichotonate — three parts, body, 
soul and spirit. That which makes one a trichotonate is a thing — nota quality nor 
an attribute nor an experience; but a thing, as a body is a thing, a soul is a thing. 

an identity; a spirit entity is bestowed upon us, or comes within us, in 

Go to the first chapter of John, and there you strike regeneration squarely. Until 
you get to John you would never dream that there is any such thing as 
regeneration. Matthew, Mark or Luke say nothing of it. How did Matthew get 
people saved? He said, "Accept the Messiah and join the procession." But John 
did not teach that. You cannot be saved by joining the church, nor the procession. 
You have got to have regeneration, by the power of the Holy Ghost, in this life! 

The first chapter of John has these words, "To those that received Him, to them 
gave He power (right, authority) to become the children of God." Were they not 
children before? No. I repudiate this nonsense that is going about all over the 
country that everybody is a child of God because he is a human being; that is 
unscriptural. God's children are those who are bom again, by the power of the 
Holy Ghost. (Applause) 

We hear much of the brotherhood of man, which I affirm, and the Fatherhood of 
God, which I deny. It is not a corollary. I believe in the unity of humanity, but not 
that mankind belongs to God unless they get to Him by regeneration. This text 
proves it. You cannot be born saved, as the followers of Islam believe; you cannot 
be born saved, as the Catholics believe; nor as 


some of the members of the Methodist church believe. Belonging to a church 
won't save anybody. Nothing can save you but being born of the Holy Ghost. That 
is the doctrine of regeneration squarely. 


We have this gain in the third chapter of John, "Except a man be born from above 
he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. "That which is bom of the flesh is flesh;" 
that is simple. "That which is born of the spirit (meaning the Holy Ghost) is a 
spirit." Manufacturing Scripture again, am I? I said I had a right to manufacture 
Scripture, to borrow Paul's and Peter's direction. Why do I put in "a" there? 
Because every Greek scholar knows that when a noun has no article before it he 
must put in an indefinite article in order to make sense. "That which is bom of the 
flesh is flesh; that which is bom of the spirit is spirit." 

Now you have your spiritual nature, a deposit from the Holy Ghost in men, an 
entity, not a quality, a faculty; but a thing from God. You are a trichotomy, a 
three-part being, body, soul and spirit; you are complete now. It goes on to say, 
"Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." 
In regeneration there are two distinct things to think of One is, the soul needs 
cleansing of its impurity. It is crooked; it needs straightening; it is weak, it needs 
strengthening. All the work upon the soul is symbolized by water — baptism, if 

you choose; immersion, if you choose. I take the whole thing and won't quarrel 
about it. 

Water is the symbol of what is to be done to the soul. Depravity must be cured, 
and is cured by regeneration. The other part is the importation of the divine 
nature, by what is called the breathing in of the spirit. That is the doctrine of 
regeneration; that is the great thing to be done to the soul in human life, if he is 
ever made a child of God. The Bible does not call him a child of wrath, a child of 
the wicked one — anything but a child of God. I do not frequently use the word, 
"a child of the devil," because if I had a son who was wicked and remained 
unconverted, and I called him a child of the devil, it might reflect on me. But if he 
went to the devil I guess he would have to be called that. 


"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" — " natural" here is from 
the Greek psuche, which means soul, translated seven times soul and 41 times life 
in the New Testament. "There is a soulical body" — I am making an adjective 
now to fit the word — a soulical body; I am looking at a thousand soulical bodies 
now — humanbeings. "There is a soulical body and there is a pneumaticon body." 
The pneumaticon body is the one that you will have in the resurrection. "The first 
man Adam was made a living soul" — psuche. You cannot find an Old Testament 
text that calls an unconverted unregenerate man a spirit or a spiritual man. Oh, 
yes, it speaks of Pharoah having "lost his spirit." The word ruach is sometimes 
used in the psychological sense for mental state; when Pharoah lost his spirit he 
lost his courage. But you cannot find the word applied literally to any 
unregenerate unconverted man in the Bible. "The first man is of the earth, earthy; 
the second man is the Lord from heaven." "On heaven," says the revised version. 
The old translators thought there was a contrast here between the Lord and Adam; 
it is not so at all; it is a contrast between the first and the second man, between 
"I," unregenerate, on the one hand and "I," regenerate, on the other. 

A spiritual man belongs to another species; he is not another variety of man; he 
belongs to spiritual and heavenly things. Where shall I place him? Not in another 
form, but in another kingdom. I am just a common Methodist preacher, but I don't 
preach any more that regeneration means merely quitting your meanness, 
although I would like to have that; I don't mean that regeneration is merely being 
good. I teach, on the authority of science and the Word of God that in order to be 
a spiritual man you will have to be made so by the power of the Holy Ghost. 

"The psuche man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are 
foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, for they are spiritually 
discerned." You have to be regenerated to see spiritual things. That is why so 
many unregenerated fools go about and say "I don't think there is anything in the 
Bible." They are psuche men. They are not regenerated. 


Our Lord in dying spoke of his "spirit" — pneuma, as did Stephen, but of 
unregenerate persons in the New Testament this word is not used. Ananias and 
Sap-phira are referred to as giving up the ghost — psuche. Jude 9, the apostle in 
describing terribly wicked people, who did not have a spirit nature, and refers to 
them as psuchechon, soulical people. Peter tells us about exceeding great and 
precious promises whereby we are made partakers of the divine nature. Do we 
become divine and become gods? I do not say that at all; we are made partakers of 
the divine nature, by being regenerated; but imputed a child of God, not 
politically a child of God, not incorporated a child of God, nor adopted a child of 
God — heis made a child of 

God. That is where God gets His children, by nature, by nature they become His, 
by the incoming of His own nature. 

To every son of Adam's race, if they turn to God as loyal children. He will give 
them the great and precious promises to become His spiritual children. Little 
children when they come to years of accountability, if they follow the right will 
receive it unconsciously, and it will be a normal thing, so that they cannot 
recognize the time when they became God's children, as thousands of Christians 
today cannot recognize such a time. If those children die before accountability I 
do not know what will be their conditions, nor does anybody else know; but we 
have the Lord's words, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven." GOd will provide 
some method of regeneration, and they must get regeneration before they will be 
made angels. If a man backslides, what comes in? Does he lose his spirit nature? 
No, but he perverts it, and it becomes devilish, just as those who were possessed 
of the evil spirits in our Lord's time. He is more able to do devilish things than he 
was before, and the last state of that man is worse than the first. 

A hymn was rendered by the audience at the conclusion of Dr. Eaton's speech and 
then Pastor Russell arose and said in reply: 


I have great pleasure in being able to agree to much that our dear brother has 
presented this evening, but not all. I have special pleasure in noticing his keen line 
of demarcation between the animal and the spirit being, that which is begotten of 
the flesh and that which is begotten of the spirit, "That which is born of the flesh 
is flesh, and that which is bom of the spirit is spirit." — that these must be "born 
again," that is to say, that all who are called to be God's people in this present time 
must be begotten of the spirit and must ultimately be born of the spirit, else they 
cannot enter the kingdom of God, they can have no part or place in that great 
kingdom of Christ, the millennial kingdom, which is to bless the whole world of 
mankind, and bring order out of present confusion. You see that I thus agree with 
much our brother said, respecting bichotomy and trichotomy, that the natural man, 
the animal man, is along the lines of the flesh, earthly. He cannot receive. 

appreciate or understand the things of the spirit. Only those who are begotten of 
the spirit can understand spiritual things. 

I am glad to notice that our brother has a measure of future probation also. I do 
not know whether you noticed that or not, because it is quite a step of progress for 
our brother. He has been somewhat converted since our last meeting! (loud 
applause) Our brother notices that the children are not begotten of the spirit unless 
they accept the privilege at maturity. Our brother notices that none of those who 
preceded our Lord's first advent were begotten of the spirit. They all went to 
hades, to sheol, and he says that they never can become spirit being until they be 
begotten of the spirit, and we agree to that. Our brother seems to have the 
impression that somehow they will become spirit, and 
that all children who die in infancy and before they are begotten, will have that 
some time in the future. 

Our dear brother is more of an evolutionist than we claim to be. We do not find 
any evolution in the Bible, and therefore we have none of it in our view. "The 
world by wisdom know not God," therefore we shall not attempt to prove 
anything by Darwin, Huxley or any other worldly-wise man! (Applause) 


Now to come back to this matter as a whole — whilethese different topics are 
discussed separately they are all connected, and some features previously 
mentioned must be considered. I have great respect for the Old Testament as well 
as the New, and I do not forget that our Lord when he quoted always used the Old 
Testament, and the apostles always quoted from the Old. There wasn't any New 
Testament to quote from! (Applause) The Apostle Paul write to Timothy, "The 
word of God is able to make thee wise unto salvation," and he referred to the Old 
Testament, the only word of God there was at that time. 

We agree with our brother that none are immortal. There is no suggestion that 
immortality was possessed by Adam or anybody naturally. There is a promise of 
immortality, a hope of immortality, and we are exhorted to "seek for glory, honor, 
and immortality," and nobody seeks for what they have. The apostle declares, 
"God only hath immortality, dwelling in light which no man can approach unto." 

Now we come to a little difference. Our brother holds that in sheol there is 
consciousness, and he has three texts represented on his chart to prove it — 
theyare all he has — barringthose texts which represented the dancing of devils 
when the king of Babylon was coming down, which we pointed out previously as 
highly figurative, representing the terrible fall of Babylon from its exalted 
position to a condition of overthrow and silence, death, the tomb. But the three 
texts which are held by our brother are: 

(1) Tartarus, a word which occurs but once in the scriptures, and it is not used in 
respect to men at all. 


but to those angels which kept not their first estate, and were cast down to 
Tartarus, signifying the atmospheric heaven where these fallen beings have been 
confined, "restrained under chains of darkness," that they should not assume 
human form again and must operate through spirit mediums and as they have 
always sought to do through wizard, witches, etc., God restraining them from any 
communication directly. They are evil spirits which personate the dead and 
represent that they are the dead. 


Second — The words of the Lord to the dying thief, who asked, "Lord, remember 
me when thou comest into thy kingdom." We won't dispute that the thief went to 
hades, but did he get paradise there? Paradise once existed in Eden; it was a 
paradise, a garden of God; but that paradise was lost through sin and 
disobedience, and God in His Word has promised that through the redemption — 
that is, in Christ Jesus-paradise shall be restored in the millennial kingdom. But 
there is no paradise now. The thief s request was, "Remember me when thou 
comest into the kingdom," and our Lord's reply, "Verily, verily," was in effect, 
"So be it, amen, amen;" in other words, the Lord was promising him what he had 
asked. But did the Lord come into his kingdom that day? Surely not. He was in 
the tomb for three days, and even after his resurrection the kingdom was not 
attained, else why do we still pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth 
as it is in heaven." 

The thief will remain in the place of silence and lack of knowledge, the tomb, 
until the voice of the Great Deliverer shall call him forth, with all others 
purchased by the precious blood, in the time when the prophecy shall be fulfilled, 
"The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach 
the good tidings to the meek, to set at liberty the captives and them that are 
bound." This was not fulfilled in our Lord's first advent, because He left even 
John in prison, instead of releasing him from the thraldom of present evil 
conditions, but the prophecy will be fulfilled when our Lord takes unto himself 
His great power and begins His reign, when He shall say to all the prisoners of the 
tomb, "Go forth, and to those who sit in darkness show yourselves! " 

I will read this text, which our brother sets so much store by, and show you how 
consistent it is with all, other portions of the divine plan. It could more properly 
be translated, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee this day, thou shalt be with me in 
paradise." What change have I made? Simply the transposition of a comma, and 
we have just as much fight to put the comma one place as another, as anyone else 
has, for the punctuation marks were never inspired. (Applause) The same use of 
language is illustrated in the various uses of the expression. "This day," in the 
eleventh chapter of Deuteronomy, where the prophet Moses is charging this 
people "this day" to observe and keep the commandments of God — not that they 
were all to be kept that day, but the command was given then. 


Our Lord was not in paradise, but in hades, and the apostle exhorted when he 
declared that God in His great power delivered him from hades in order that he 
might accomplish his glorious work in due time. Hades was not a desirable, 
happy, blissful place to be, but our Lord wasn't there because it was of that 
character, but because it was necessary for him to die on behalf of the race in 
order to redeem them — to go into absolute death as a payment of their penalty. 

The third text is the "gulf text. We will get to it in the last session, where it 
properly belongs, and then our dear brother won't need his chart any longer, for it 
will take away his last text in support of the intermediate state. (Laughter and 

The reward of the good and the wicked comes not when they die, but at the 
resurrection of the dead. That there is no promise of punishment to the wicked or 
reward to the righteous until the resurrection I present a few texts. Peter says, 
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the 
unjust to the day of judgment to be punished." Maybe Peter didn't know, but we 
think he did. The other text is found in Luke, our Lord's words; our Lord was 
commending those who would give a cup of cold water or any kindness in his 
name. They were to call the poor and the impoverished and make a feast to them. 
For they cannot recompense thee; thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of 
the just." (Applause) Did our Lord know when they would be recompensed? We 
are sure He did, and that Peter also spoke by inspiration. 

Going back to Father Adam, created as our brother expressed it, a soulical man, 
or, as the common version gives it very well for our purpose, an animal man — 
nota brutish man, but an animal, .earthly being, in God's image in the qualities of 
his heart, his mind, his will, in that he was able to reason exactly and intelligently. 
In this condition God pronounced him "very good" — grand indeed the first pair 
must have been! Then the scriptures proceed to say there was a fall from likeness 
to God; degradation took the place of perfection, death took the place of the life 


given to our first parents, and gradually increasing depravity, until the race today 
is what we see it, comparatively poor in many respects. 


Look, for instance, at the physical quality. Adam the perfect man, able to live 930 
years, under the unfavorable conditions of his time. Today we thinlc people who 
can live a hundred years are living a long time, with all the help of doctors, 
hospitals and surgery to their advantage. But the perfect man was able to live 930 
years notwithstanding death had hold of him and was hurrying him down to the 
great prison house. The whole human family have gone down with him, but the 
whole human family has had a Redeemer provided for them. 

I was glad our brother brought that point in — " that all are blessed in the 
Redeemer." I was glad he seems to realize that in some way Christ's redemptive 
work was applicable to the whole world of mankind. What has Christ done for the 
world? Let him answer himself when he says, "I came to seek and to save that 
which was lost." What was lost? An angelic nature? No, man was created on the 
human plane. That which was lost was redeemed. What therefore will be restored 
in due time, when the Lord begins his work of blessing, will be that which was 
possessed by Adam in the beginning, and representatively by him for the whole 
race — the. glorious perfection of human nature, pronounced "very good" by God 

Man lost not only perfect physical form, but all the mental and moral qualities 
constituting him an image of God were impaired and injured; but they were all 
included in the redemption, and God has provided a time of restoration of these to 
man. When? In the millennial kingdom; when that kingdom shall come for which 
we are praying, when God's will shall be done on earth as it is done in heaven, 
when these poor creatures who have been falling mentally and morally and 
physically, weakened and unable to help themselves, shall have the mighty power 
of the Savior to lift them up to perfection, if they will be submissive to the 
influences of divine regulation then. 

We are doing, our best today to help the world to a better condition, with social 
uplifts of various kinds, and we would like to do much more for them than our 
frail conditions will permit us to do — we stand aghast at the enormous needs in 
these directions, but thank God, the time is coming when the completely perfect 
power shall be exercised, when Christ shall take unto Himself His power and 
begin His reign. (Applause) 


I would like to mention a point in full accord with what our brother has said; 
throughout the entire Old Testament from the first verse of Genesis to the last of 
Malachi there is not a solitary statement to the effect that God applies heavenly or 
spiritual things to any soul of man during that time; not one reference to going to 
heaven, not one reference to being begotten of the spirit. Why? Because that was 
not God's plan. The time of offering the blessing of spiritual nature had not come. 
It came exactly when our Lord came. I have some of the same Scriptures for your 
attention that have been quoted to you. 

As, for instance, the declaration of John, "He was in the world, and the world was 
made by Him, and the world knew Him not; He came unto His own, and His own 
received Him not, but as many as received Him to them gave He power (privilege, 
liberty) to become sons of God." None were granted the privilege of being sons of 
God before. The very highest privilege in the Jewish dispensation was a position 
as a servant. The Apostle Paul states this when he says "Moses was faithful as a 
servant over his house; but Christ as a son over His own house, whose house are 
we, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end." We are the 
house of sons; this house of sons began with the Redeemer; He is the forerunner, 
and the church are the members of His body who follow after Him. He is "the 

head over all things to the church which is His body." None went before Him, 
none could possibly precede Him in this glorious company, otherwise He would 
not properly have been the head. 

Now notice what the ancient worthies did look for. Read in the scriptures what 
God promised to Abraham: "Look now from the place where thou art, northward 
and southward and eastward and westward, all the land that thou seest to thee will 
I give it, and unto thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession." Heavenly 
things? To sit with Christ in the throne? No! "All the land that thou seest," 
forever! Stephen refers to this promise, saying, 'Tie came into this land, and God 
gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on, though he 
promised it to him for a possession and his seed after him, when as yet he had no 


Stephen evidently realized that Abraham was to get his possession at a future 
time, or else God's promise, in his mind, was a false statement! And so we read, 
in the ninth chapter of Amos, "They shall sit every man under his own vine and 
fig tree," and "they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them, build houses 


inhabit them." Do spirit beings sit under fig trees? Is that the promise made to the 
house of sons of the present time? No, no! To the kings and priests, the Church of 
Christ now being chosen, the blessings are spiritual, of a heavenly kind. 

In Hebrews eleven, the apostle, after citing these ancient worthies, said, "These, 
all having died, in faith, received not the promise, God having provided some 
better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." "Some better 
thing" — for whom? For the church, the house of sons; better than what God 
provided for the house of servants. The thing provided for the house of servants 
are good things, but those provided for the house of sons are still better things. 
"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man the 
things which God hath prepared for them that love him" — forthe church class, 
those whom "he is not ashamed to call his brethren." 

Those Who lived prior to the gospel age are noble characters — Abraham was a 
wonderful character, and John the Baptist, the last of the prophets, of whom our 
Lord said, "The least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he!" John could not 
be of the kingdom class; he said: "I am the friend of the bridegroom"-not the 
bride, or a member of the bride class, the church. That was as far as John's 
mission went. 

Our brother pointed out the other evening that our Lord brought immortality to 
light. I would like to have you notice that text. "Christ brought life and 
immortality to light through the gospel." Two things: He not only brought 
immortality to light, that is the gift of God to the church, but He also brought life 
to light — everlasting life to those who will not have immortality. The 

immortality class is the little flock, the joint heirs who shall be associated with 
Him as members of His body, those to whom it will be His pleasure to give glory, 
honor and immortality and joint heirship in the kingdom, but for the world the 
Lord brought life to them. 


I trust nobody is sorry that the Lord has something for others outside the little 
flock, the elect church. I trust our hearts glow as we think of the fact that, "God so 
loved the world" — not merely the church, and that He has not only given the 
church "exceeding great and precious promises, that they might obtain the divine 
nature," but also that we can see something of blessing to the world in due time. 


I am partly in agreement with our brother respecting being begotten of the spirit 
— not that everybody is to have that blessing, because only "to as many as 
believed on His name" was the promise given; those who do not hear now do not 
have this special privilege; whatever happens to them they cannot get the great 
salvation promised to those who walk in the footsteps of Christ in the present time 
of trial and difficulty. There is a difference between the begetting and the birth of 
the spirit. Although only one word is used in the Greek (genao) to signify the two 
conditions, the preposition' associated with the word indicates whether birth or 
begetting is referred to; in the former case the preposition signifies "out of," in the 
latter case it signifies "into." 

Only one who is begotten of the spirit can be bom of the spirit, just as birth in the 
natural life follows only upon begetting. The begetting takes place in the present 
time, upon consecration to the Lord, but the birth of the spirit is not realized until 
the resurrection, when the work of begetting is fully complete. The Scriptures 
indicate this very clearly. Our Lord Jesus is declared to be "The first-born from 
the dead," and we, if we are faithful and become members of His body, in the 
resurrection we shall reach the glorious condition of birth. "He is the first-born 
among many brethren" — we are the brethren, and we shall be like Him, and see 
Him as He is and share His glory, and possess the divine nature if obedient to the 
end. This divine nature shall be ours in the future — thestatement of Peter is that 
we were begotten by these great and precious promises, that we might become 
partakers of the divine nature in the resurrection — thosehaving part in the first 
resurrection shall have the divine nature. Glory, honor and immortality shall be 
for them. 

The provision for mankind is different; it is that stated by the apostle in Acts 3: 
19-21, restitution — a time of restoration, the restoring again of the lost condition 
in the garden of Eden. This time of restitution shall come when the last member of 
the kingdom class shall have been glorified, and completed for the work of 
service in glory. All the holy prophets declare that this restitution shall take place, 
according to Peter's words — notuniversal salvation, but a universal opportunity 
to come to the knowledge of the only name given whereby we may be saved. 
(Loud applause) 


Dr Eaton then arose and said in reply: 

My brother has berated me because I stated that immortality was not mentioned 
in the Old Testament. Of course, it is not found there in so many words; but it is 
all true of the Old Testament. What was the matter with David when he said, 
"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me." It is all a 
play upon words. He says all go to hell, which 


shows he is careless; he just slides from one side to the other. Hell means nothing, 
sheol means nothing, hades nothing, paradise means nothing — theyall mean 
forgetfulness, and sleep, and death. That's where you are, and that's where he is. 

The old Hebrews who translated the Septuagint didn't treat the words that way; 
they didn't think death and hell and sleep mean the same thing. They were 
exceedingly careful to translate sheol 61 times out of 65 hades. Homer spoke of 
hades, and at that time the idea was fixed and settled; the Greeks had the idea very 
clearly, hades divided into two compartments, only they thought of them as 
eternal. Our Lord adopted their idea, except that He did not make it eternal. The 
New Testament uses these ideas, and you must treat them respectfully. They are 
words which the Holy Ghost selected. (Applause) 

"If God spared not the angels which sinned, and cast them down to Tartarus, and 
committed them to pits of darkness, and reserved them unto judgment, and spared 
not the ancient world"-Jesus said: "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire prepared 
for the devil and his angels." These two texts together indicate the fact that 
wicked men are identified with the fallen angels in their association together. 
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of trial, and to keep the unjust 
under punishment unto the day of judgment" — thatis the revised version, 
American revision, the best scholarship in the world. The word "punishment" here 
is "kolasin," and refers to the same condition as experienced by the rich man in 

"God only hath immortality" — a Scriptural expression. God is the only being 
who hath immortality as a necessary endowment — a necessary thing is a thing 
that cannot be. God's immortality is a necessity. He can confer it upon the race 
and individuals, but we have not got it as God has it. There is nothing in the Bible 
about seeking for immortality. The word is "aphthasia," and signifies purity. Read 
the revised version, and you will get some light. "Brought life and immortality to 
light." The word "life" is "zoa," and "immortality" is "aphtharsia," purity. Jesus 
Christ brought life and incorruption to light in the gospel. That is the great 
doctrine of the gospel, soul purity, and the doctrine of eternal life. 


My brother spoke of eternal life as though he did not understand the idea, and I do 
not think he does. He hasn't the least conception of what eternal life is. "This is 

eternal life, to know God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent" — notto know 
about Him, but to know Him as He is. As the Father hath life (zoa aionios) in 
Himself (the same as immortality, an original endowment), so hath He given to 
the Son to have eternal life in Himself." "I am come that they might have life" — 
zoa, not immortality. Nobody gets immortality as a conditional gift, but by faith in 
Jesus Christ as a conditional gift eternal life is bestowed. "The wages of sin is 
death, but the gift of God is eternal life" — it is the greatest thing in the universe. 

I didn't expect my brother to go into some of these matters tonight. I had hoped I 
had converted him the last night, but he is as bad as he was then! (Applause) 
Pastor Russell concluded the debate for the evening as follows: 

I must remind my brother that David being a prophet spoke beforehand of Christ, 
and that is particularly why you and I have particular reverence for the psalms, for 
they are prophetic. Davidwas not always speaking of himself He and the prophets 
wrote as Peter tells us, "as they were moved by the holy spirit," not clearly 
understanding all they did declare. 

Our brother has referred to the devil and the angels. We will come to that in the 
last discourse. It will be all right when we come to it. They don't go to Tartarus 
then either. The fallen angels only remain there until that time, "reserved in chains 
of darkness until the judgment Of the great day." 

Our brother has referred to "kolasin" as signifying torment. If he will consult his 
Greek lexicon more closely he will find that it means restraint. (Applause) The 
Greeks used the expression, for instance, in the phrase, "The charioteer restrains 
his fiery steeds." 

He must not know that there is such a thing as immortality in the Scriptures. He 
will find that the words "corruption" and "immortality" are used almost 
interchangeably in the Scriptures. The two words are used in the fifteenth chapter 
of 1 Corinthians, when the apostle describes the change that shall come to the 
church: "This mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on 
corruption." The two words are here used. 


"This is eternal life that they should know God, and Jesus Christ whom He has 
sent." Did our Lord really mean that there is nothing more in eternal life than in 
knowing God — that there is no real eternal life? Certainly not. He wants that any 
one wanting to attain to eternal life could not hope for it unless he should come 
into such thorough harmony with God and complete knowledge of His character 
that he would be able to please the Lord in his daily conduct. The wicked can 
never have eternal life; that is the reason why they could never go to eternal 
torment! (Applause) "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath 


not the Son shall not see life." That is what the wicked get. I am glad for them! 

Our dear brother has spoken about zoa aionios. The word zoa is a very simple 
word, used every day; it simply signifies life in the commonest sense of the word. 
We have it incorporated into our language in the word "zoology." Lasting life, zoa 
aionios, is promised to those who obey the Lord, and only those will get it who 
after learning of the work of Jesus Christ submit themselves willingly to His 

I trust we will not permit these matters to draw our attention away from the great 
fact that you and I today are living in the present time by the grace of God with a 
wonderful opportunity and hope for salvation before us; it is the salvation which 
belongs to this age. 

God is now taking out the little flock to be joint heirs of the kingdom. But you 
and I would not be ready for that great work of blessing the world unless we had 
formed characters in the meantime, and God has provided trials 'to test His 
.people that they may be ready for the administration of the blessing to the world 
as the seed of Abraham, of which the apostle says. Gal. 3: 29, "If ye be Christ's, 
then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." There is a great 
promise that God gave to Abraham, saying, "In thy seed shall all the families of 
the earth be blessed." 

That great promise has never been fulfilled. Gross darkness covers the earth and 
the people, but a light shall shine, the great sun of righteousness shall arise, and if 
you and I are to be members of that light, which shall shine forth as the sun to 
heal the world and lift up all the willing, and rule as the great Prophet, and 
Governor and as the great King, then we need now to make our calling and 
election sure, attending to these things which the Lord hath set before His people. 




Pastor C. T. Russell Argues in Favor of this Proposition, 
while the Rev. Dr. E. L. Eaton Opposes It 



Every seat was occupied and the overflow packed all the aisles and the open 
space at the entrance of the Allegheny Carnegie hall last evening when the 
discussion of the fourth proposition in the joint debate between the Rev. Dr. E. L. 
Eaton, pastor of the North Avenue Methodist Episcopal church, and Pastor C. T. 
Russell of the Bible House congregation opened. 

The subject last evening was, "The Scriptures clearly teach that only the 'saints' 
of this gospel age will share in the 'first resurrection; ' but that vast multitudes 
will be saved in and by the subsequent resurrection." 

Pastor Russell had the affirmative in this discussion and, under the rules, opened 
with an address lasting 50 minutes. Dr. Eaton followed with an address of similar 
length, and then each was given 10 minutes for a reply to the arguments the other 
brought forward. 

The Rev. John A. Jayne, pastor of the Observatory Hill Christian church, was 
chairman of last evening's meeting. Devotional exercises lasting 15 minutes 
preceded the opening at 8 o'clock. 

The large audience was very attentive throughout the evening. The interest in the 
debate seems to grow with the discussion. The next discussion will take place 
tomorrow evening at 8 o'clock and the last one on Sunday afternoon at 3 o'clock. 


The congregational singing has been a feature of the debates which appears to 
have been much enjoyed. Prof B. Frank Walters of the Bible House congregation 
is the organist and E. P. Russell is the preceptor. 


Pastor Russell, in affirming the proposition for the evening's debate, said: 

I feel, dear friends, that the topic of the resurrection of the dead is one of the most 
important doctrines in the word of God, a doctrine which, it seems to me, has not 
been granted its due place of importance in recent years, a doctrine, however, 
which we find is very prominent indeed in the word of God. From our standpoint, 
as heretofore presented, we understand the Scriptures to teach that the dead are 
really dead: that they are not alive in any sense of the word, except in the sense 
that our heavenly Father predetermined a resurrection of the dead, predetermined 
that He should accomplish this matter through a redemption which would pay the 
ransom price for our Father Adam's sin, and thus secure to all his posterity who 
failed in him and who came under death conditions, an 
opportunity for return to life; as the apostle says: "By one man sin entered into 
the world, and death as the result of sin, and thus death passed upon all men." 

In God's due time He sent forth His Son, that He might redeem us, that He might 
purchase us with His own precious blood. The penalty upon the race was death, 
extinction; but, in view of this intention on the part of our heavenly Father, death 
was always spoken of in the past, preceding our Lord's coming, as a sleep. The 
Lord expresses it thus to His people, and intimates in this way His sure intention 
of bringing back all mankind from the tomb, and all those who believed God 
expressed their confidence in the Almighty, in His promises, and in His power, 
when they spoke of one another as falling asleep. We read you various texts of 
Scripture on a previous occassion, showing that this word "sleep" is generally 

applied throughout the Scriptures, not only to the good, but also to the forward, 
that they all are said to have fallen asleep: "They slept with their father." 


We would like to have you notice that the Scriptures teach that the penalty for sin 
is death of the soul! "The soul that sinneth it shall die." And so it was because the 
soul was under condemnation that our Lord is said to have "poured out His soul 
unto death." We do not mean by soul any abstruse or obscure thing; we mean 
sentient being, that which the Scriptures everywhere represent the soul to be. The 
Scriptures represent that all souls are under sin, under the sentence of death. You 
are a soul; I am a soul; every other member of Adam's posterity is a soul, and 
each one shares in Father Adam's sin and each soul of us is under condemnation 
of death. Who can redeem his soul from the power of the grave? Who can give to 
God a ransom for his brother, or even himself? No one. So we are all helpless, 
except as the heavenly Father provides the great Redeemer, and the Redeemer 
gave the full price. 

As it was your life and my life that was forfeited, your soul and my soul that was 
condemned, so our Lord Jesus poured out His soul unto death. "He made His soul 
an offering for sin." It was not merely our Lord's body, you see, but the Lord's 
soul; and so Peter, in speaking of our Lord's resurrection, does not speak merely 
of the resurrection of the body but, quoting the prophet David, declares "His soul 
was not left in hades, neither did God suffer His Holy One to see corruption." 

We would like to have you notice that the resurrection we preach, which the 
Scriptures teach, is the resurrection of the soul, the being, the coming again of 
those beings that now go down into death. To preach the resurrection of the body 
would imply, we think, an absurdity. If the Scriptures taught it we would be ready 
to accept even an absurdity, but the Scriptures do not teach that the same body 
which goes down is to be resurrected. Your body, my body, will return to the dust 
as it was; it will have no preference, and the atoms which compose your and my 
bodies are not necessary to our heavenly Father in restoring our souls, in bringing 
us to being again. There are plenty of atoms of matter, if he wished to create us 
again of the earth earthy, without using the ones which composed the body at 


Let me call your attention to the fact that our Lord Jesus was the first one to rise 
from the dead — the first one to experience resurrection. I know that we 
sometimes hear people speak of those whom Elijah and Elisha brought back to 
life again, and refer to these as resurrections, but not so the Scriptures. We 
sometimes speak of the resurrection of Lazarus, or the son of the widow of Nain, 

Jairus' daughter, but the Scriptures never do. They were merely awakenings. The 
word "resurrection" has in it something more than that. The Greek word rendered 
"resurrection" in the English is "anastasis," and anastasis signifies to bring up 

again. Lazams was not brought up again; he was brought up to a measure of life, 
but the measure of life he had when he died was only a mere drop of life, as it 

You remember how the Lord spoke of the condition in which all mankind is, 
when he said, "Let the dead bury their dead." All are under condemnation, under 
the divine sentence, and their condition of existence is not full life. 

When the Lord called Lazarus forth from the tomb He did not call him down 
from heaven, because he was not in heaven; and He did not call him up from 


place of Paradise; because he did not go to Paradise. Lazarus was dead; or to use 
the illustration so common with the Lord and others, "Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I 
may awake him out of sleep" — a sleep that otherwise would have lasted until the 
dawn of the millennial day when the general resurrection would be due, but a 
sleep that was interrupted temporarily, and Lazarus came back to a measure of life 
such as he had previously. But he was still dead, except as he could be counted 
alive by faith in Jesus Christ. 

Let me quote some of the Scriptures which prove that our Lord Jesus was the tint 
to rise from the dead. If I establish this point, that our Lord was the first to rise 
from the dead, it proves what I contend for, that these others were not 
resurrections, but merely temporary awakenings. 

Acts 26: 23, "That Christ should suffer, and that He should be the tint which 
should rise from the dead." 1 Cor. 15: 22, 23, "For as all in Adam die, even so all 
in Christ shall be made alive; every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, 
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." Col. 1: 10: "He is the head of the 
body, the church, which is the beginning, the first born from the dead — that in 
all things He might have the preeminence." Heb. 6: 19, 20: "Which hope we have 
as an anchor to the soul, both sure and steadfast; which entereth into that within 
the vail, whither the forerunner is forever entered" — He is the forerunner, the 
first One to arrive, and we follow Him, but do not precede Him. Rev. 1:5: "And 
from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the tint-begotten from the 


These Scriptures clearly establish the fact that our Lord was the first to rise from 
the dead; consequently these others were merely temporary awakenings. 

Coming back to Lazarus, we remind you of the words of the Lord in His comfort 
to Martha and Mary, and I am sure His words have comforted many others since 
in sorrow. Jesus said not. Thy brother is in paradise, nor in hades; what did He 
say? "Thy brother shall rise again;" He points them to the real hope. Mary and 
Martha were well instructed in the matter, and they said, "We know that he shall 
rise again in the last day." They had faith in the resurrection. Jesus assured them 

that He was the resurrection, that is to say, that resurrection power was in Him; 
He was the one Through whom the dead should have their life, and that they 
might have something in the present time. He proceeded to the awakening of 
Lazarus as an illustration of His power, to be exercised in full at His second 
advent. If Lazarus was at this time in paradise or heaven, or any good, desirable 
place, do you think the Lord would have brought him back again, and represent 
that He was conferring a favor upon Lazarus and the sisters? I tell you nay! 

I remind you of the teaching of the apostles, that wherever they went their 
preaching was, as it is recorded in the Acts; "they went preaching Jesus and the 
resurrection." That was the hope- Jesus and His sacrifice, as the basis of all the 
hope for the future life. Without Jesus and the ransom sacrifice there could be no 
hope of a resurrection. The dead were all under the legal sentence; the Great 
Judge had sentenced Father Adam and all his posterity to death. They could not 
have life, could not be restored to life, until tint of all a ransom had been paid, and 
therefore Jesus, as the great Redeemer, who gave Himself as the ransom for all, 
who died that we might live, came upon the scene. He suffered and died, and 
following this was His resurrection. The resurrection to mankind, as a result of 
this glorious work, will be the fulfilment of this great plan of God; the fulfilment 
will be the salvation. 


There is no salvation, as we pointed out on a previous occasion, in the present 
time, except by faith, and so the apostle says to you and me who believe, and in 
proportion as we believe, "We are saved by hope." You have a good hope toward 
God; you believe that Christ died for our sins; therefore hoping in Him as the 
Redeemer, you hope that there is future probation in God's plan; you expect to 
have a share in the resurrection which God has provided through Jesus. You have 
only the hope now. You are waiting for the resurrection, waiting for the time 
when "the salvation shall be brought unto you at the revelation of our Lord and 
Saviour Jesus Christ," as the apostle expresses it. 

Mark the words of the apostle when he was on trial before some of his enemies; 
he said: "For the hope of the resurrection of the dead I am called in question" — it 
is because I believe in the resurrection of the dead that I am here a prisoner. Not 
very many get into trouble now because they believe in the resurrection, because 
the doctrine has been crowded out by unscriptural ones to the effect that when a 
man dies he has got more alive than he ever was before. We see the great 
importance of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead when we see the fact 
that a man who dies is really dead. Again he says: "We have a hope-toward God 
that there shall be a resurrection, both of the just and the unjust." (Acts 24: 15) A 
hope toward God! We see where there is a hope for the just, that they shall get a 
blessing through the resurrection; but where will there be one for the unjust? We 
will see when we come to it that the resurrection of the unjust is the great blessing 
that God has in store for mankind in general 


in the millennium. 

We call your attention also to the Scriptures which speak of the dead as being 
prisoners in the great prison house, the tomb, waiting for Emmanuel, to take to 
Himself His great power and open the prison doors, as He himself applied the 
prophecy of Isaiah 61 to Himself, "The spirit of the Lord God hath anointed me . . 
. to open the prison doors and set at liberty the prisoners, and them that are 
bound." In the great millennial age He will say to the prisoners of death. Show 
yourselves. (Isaiah 42: 6-10) This is a pictorial way of stating the resurrection of 
the dead. 


Now we come to the one chapter in all the Bible which more than any other sets 
forth this doctrine of the resurrection, the 15th chapter of i Corinthians. Begin at 
the 12th verse. "Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say 
some amongst you that there is no resurrection of the dead." I know of a good 
many who have been led so far astray that even in our day they deny the 
resurrection, because they could see no reason nor use in it. Their argument is that 
resurrection would mean a return to mortal bodies, and they say, will we not be 
glad to shuffle off this mortal coil, and shall we be glad to get it back again? But 
we answer that they are wrong in supposing that death had brought life more 
abundant to them; the resurrection is what will bring life, the life giver is the 
Redeemer, who at His second advent will give life, as at the first advent He 
purchased the right to do so with His own precious blood. 

"If Christ be not raised ye are yet in your sins." How much stress our Lord lays on 
this matter of the Lord's resurrection! If our Lord had died and had not been raised 
from the dead, we have no Savior. When He arose from the dead, that is the 
assurance that He is now able to deliver those that trust in Him and who wait for 
his time of deliverance. 

"Then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." Perished! If they are 
gone to Paradise, or gone to heaven, could there be any question about perishing? 
They are in the tomb, and if Christ has not been raised, if He has not redeemed us 
and if He is not risen from the tomb, how could He ever accomplish the great 
deliverance which is to be carried out in due time, according to the Scriptures? So 
the apostle says, if Christ is not raised we are still in our sins; He has made no 
atonement acceptable to God, and additionally all who fell asleep trusting in Jesus 
are perished. 

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that 
slept." You never have a first-fruits unless you expect after fruits, and just so 
surely as he declares that Christ is a first-fruits so surely there is to be the after 
fruitage, and that means the after resurrection. "By a man came death, and by a 
man came the resurrection of the dead." Adam brought the death penalty by his 
disobedience under the divine law. The Lord brought the blessed opportunity of 

resurrection by His obedience, by giving His life as a ransom of Father Adam, and 
thus purchasing the whole race of Adam who were redeemed by the precious 
blood of Christ. 


The apostle then discusses the matter of the body, and says, "Some men will say. 
How. are the dead raised? With what body do they come. He is not speaking of 
how are bodies raised up, but "How are the dead raised up." He is speaking of the 
soul, the being, not speaking of the body; what kind of bodies will they have 
when they are resurrected. His answer is, "O foolish person, that which thou 
sowest is not quickened except it die." He is now applying this to nature; if you 
plant corn you do not expect to see the same grain of com come up; but you will 
expect to find other grains of the same kind. In death you bury the human being; 
but you are not to expect the same body which you put down. The same body 
which goes into the grave will not come up, but the being, the entity, will be the 
same — God has preserved it in his own power, and He will clothe it with a body 
in due time. 

The apostle proceeds to note what God's good pleasure is concerning the various 
features of the resurrection. "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh 
of fish, another flesh, of beasts, and another of birds. There are bodies celestial 
and bodies terrestrial, but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the 
terrestrial is another." Here he suggests that in God's plan there are two classes of 
beings, which our dear brother mentioned the other evening as dichotomy and 
trichotomy. The dichotomy are those who have merely the animal nature, the 
trichotomy are those who have been begotten of the spirit "from above," and who 
therefore have the start of the new nature, and who, according to the apostle, are 
classed as new creatures in Christ. These new creatures are 
spiritual, and spiritual promises apply to them and belong to them. But God has a 
special blessing also for the dichotomy; not a blessing with the church, for only 
those begotten of the spirit shall attain spiritual blessings; they will not share in 
the first resurrection, because in the latter only the kings and priests of this gospel 
age shall have any share (Rev. 20), but there is a glory of terrestrial, earthly 
nature, which is to be attained by the natural man in the later 


resurrection. The apostle here wishes to show that two kinds of seed are sown, 
and two kinds of fruitage shall result — God will give to each kind of seed his 
own kind of body; to the natural man will be the natural body, similar to the one 
he has now; and to the new creature will be the spiritual body, the heavenly body, 
like unto Christ the glorious head. 


In verse 42, after the apostle describes the characteristics of the first resurrection, 
the resurrection of the church, says: "Thus is THE resurrection of THE dead." 

These emphatic words are shown by the original Greek, although they are not 
apparent in the English translation. This is a special resurrection for a special 
class, the chief among the dead — theyare the church, the body of Christ, faithful 
in Christ Jesus, who are promised a share with the Lord in the first resurrection. 

The word first means properly first in order, but also implies a chief condition, a 
more important resurrection, implying a later resurrection of a less important 
character — thekind which shall come to the world in general. God's proposition, 
as described in this chapter (1 Cor. 15) is a spiritual body for the church, which 
will be different from the natural animal body, which is of the earth earthly; the 
church is to be changed from present earthly conditions and given bodies like 
unto our Lord's glorious body; or as the Apostle Peter has declared, "God hath 
given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these we might be 
made partakers of the divine nature — far above angels, principalities and powers, 
and every name that is named, like unto our Lord and Master in His glory, and 
shares with Him in His glory. 

"The first man (Adam) was made a living soul (an animal soul), the last Adam 
was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit." Christ was the last Adam and the 
church is to be like Him, with spiritual bodies. Then the apostle proceeds: "As 
was the earthly (Adam) so also are they that are earthly." As Father Adam was in 
His perfection, before condemnation, so will they also be of the earthly class who 
will share in the resurrection for the world of mankind in general. This will mean 
that the world will come back by resurrection processes to all that Father Adam 
had as the great earthly being whom God originally created. The apostle is not 
speaking of the heavenly resurrection; he has already spoken of that and says that 
all who have a share in it shall have spiritual bodies. 

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." There was a disposition on 
the part of many to suppose that human beings could enter and become partakers 
of the glorious privileges of the spiritual kingdom, but the apostle is pointing out 
by inspiration that the heavenly kingdom is a spiritual one, and that those who 
become joint heirs with the Lord must be changed, and be spiritual, instead of 
being earthly, animal beings — they must partake of the divine nature in place of 
the human nature. 


Then, "when this corruption shall have put on incorruption, and when this mortal 
shall have put on immortality," shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 
"Death is swallowed up in victory." Was death a good thing? No! Whose victory 
is this? The victory of our Lord, the victory of our Heavenly Father through our 
Lord Jesus Christ. When will death be swallowed up? After he shall-have 
accomplished his mission. And how long will it take to swallow up death? It will 
take the whole millennial age. Death will have its power until the very close of 
that time, for the statement is, "He must reign until he hath put all enemies under 
his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 

In Revelation 20: 5 we have the statement: "The rest of the dead lived not again 
until the thousand years are finished." The prophet John, the writer, has just 

recounted the matter o£ the first resurrection; that they lived and reigned with 
Christ a thousand years. But who will they be reigning over? A dead world! 

Not a world in non-existence during the thousand years, but a world which will 
not have attained to life, in its proper sense, until the thousand years are finished. 
From God's standpoint this word "live" has a particular significance. Adam was 
alive before the sentence of death came, and from the moment he became a 
transgressor and under sentence he became a dying man instead of a living man. 
That represents the condition of all the world. All have a measure of life, as they 
exist today, but all are in a dying, not a living, condition. They are not in the 
tomb, but God does not recognize them as alive. During the millennial age 
conditions will be reversed, and instead of the race going down more and more 
into degradation and sin and death and corruption, the order will be changed, and 
they will be rising, and rising, and rising, out of death, out of death — but they 
won't get out of death totally, fully, until the close of the age. They will not live, 
in the sense that God speaks of it, until the thousand years are finished. Then, 
having come to the condition of perfection, having received all that was lost, they 
will live again in the same sense that Father Adam lived before he transgressed. 



Our Lord referred to the same thought in John 5: 25, "The hour is coming when 
the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." 
Some of us have already heard the voice of the Son, while we were children of 
wrath, and from a reckoned standpoint we have begun to live, through faith in 
Christ. "He that believed on the Son hath life," he has a life reckoned to him, and 
so enjoying it by faith that it will be an everlasting life, and that the tomb will not 
interfere with his life. But speaking of the world of mankind in general during the 
millennial age, when the dead are awakened (John 5: 28-29) as Lazarus was 
awakened, there will be an opportunity for all who have never heard the voice of 
the Son of Man to hear it then, and those who hear in the proper sense of obeying 
will continue to progress to the attainment of life, in its full sense. 

"God wills that all men shall be saved, (to be preserved, that they should not be 
totally cut off from opportunity while in the tomb, preserved from extinction), and 
to come to the knowledge of the truth. The great majority are in ignorance, but 
God wills that all shall know, because, the apostle goes on to say, "There is one 
God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave 
himself a ransom for all to be testified (to all) in due time." When you heard the 
testimony your responsibility began. When the heathen shall hear their 
responsibility will begin. Those who will hear during the millennial age, in the 
sense of obeying that great prophet, teacher, Christ the Head, and the church His 
body, will be brought up gradually by restitution processes, until at the close of 
the millennial age they shall live, and those who refuse to hear the prophet — 
mark the words of Peter (Acts 3: 23), "shall be utterly destroyed amongst the 

Daniel gives us a picture in the 12th chapter, of the millennial conditions: "Some 
shall arise to life; and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The word 
everlasting her is from the Hebrew word "olam," which is not as strong as our 
English word, but is equivalent to the word "lasting." They will come forth to 
lasting contempt. How long will it last? As long as the contemptible conditions 
last. I fancy Nero, for instance, coming forth. Under the new conditions as he will 
see around him the evidence of righteousness he will experience shame and 
contempt; he will not only have contempt for himself, but the contempt of all 
those about him. They will recognize Nero of ancient days. But under the blessed 
conditions of that time, if he will hear the Son's voice, he will be assisted to 
righteous conditions — hewill be given the blessings of restitution processes, an 
opportunity to raising up to life, to an appreciation of what is right and wrong, and 
if he chooses the right, chooses to be on God's side, he may make progress up out 
of his degraded condition to the full human perfection provided in the glorious 
resurrection for the obedient of the world. (Great applause) 


Dr. Eaton, in rising to address the audience, in 

support of the negative of the proposition, said: Our brother started out by 
undertaking to show that there were no resurrections until Christ. All that is 
needed to reply to that is to quote the statement concerning Lazarus, "whom he 
raised from the dead." (John 12: 1) He said, "Do you suppose God brought 
Lazarus back from paradise?" Well, Paul went to paradise and he came back and 
told us of it. "I knew a man who was carried to paradise and saw things which 
were not lawful to be uttered." What did he come back for? He went to paradise 
and to heaven, and came back. That is no argument. How do I know what the 
Lord would do? I do know the Lord did not permit Paul to tell anything about 
what he saw. And if you run through the Scriptures you will find quite a number 
of people who have been permitted to go through the experience we call death, 
and come back again. One was Lazarus, and there were several others — Samuel, 
for instance, who came back at the call of God, as I believe. But not one of them 
have ever been pennitted to describe what they saw, nor to describe the heavenly 
state. They have only been permitted to characterize it, as Paul said, "Eye hath not 
seen nor ear heard, neither hath it entered the heart of man, the things which God 
hath prepared for them that love Him." If Paul was not in a condition to know 
whether he was there in the body or out of it, he certainly was not in a fit 
condition to describe what he saw. The fact that Lazarus said nothing, proves 
nothing. He was dead, and Christ raised him from the dead, as it is plainly said. 

Our brother has taught that the disciples went everywhere preaching about the 
resurrection; the resurrection, the resurrection, was their great theme. I say, no; 
the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the great theme! (Applause) They preached it 
on Pentecost, to 3,000 people who surrendered and accepted the truth. The next 
day Peter went up to the temple and healed a man, and began to preach to the 
multitude which gathered, and again he preached the resurrection of Jesus Christ 
from the dead. On the third day they put him in prison, and when he came out and 
was permitted to address the Sanhedrin he preached the resurrection of Christ 



Wherever Paul went he said nothing about the resurrection of ourselves, so far as 
I can remember, but every place he preached the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That 
is what the resurrection is. The Scriptures do not put any special stress or 
importance on the resurrection of our body. We have only one chapter in the 
Bible, the 15th of First Corinthians, that has anything about it particularly, but 
more than 200 places speaking of the resurrection of Christ. At Athens, before the 
cultured intellectual Greeks, Paul preached the resurrection of Jesus Christ from 
the dead. 

If my brother will now turn to the first chapter of First Peter and quote us once 
more on this subject: "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who 
hath begotten us again to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the 
dead." He taught you tonight that we are begotten by the resurrection from the 
dead! "To an inheritance, incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, 
reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God, through faith unto 
salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time." What is ready to be revealed? 

Let us see what the last time is, then. "Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, 
who verily was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was 
manifested in these last times." 

Salvation was revealed in the last time, and we are now in this last time — the 
last we shall ever see. Christ's salvation is proclaimed now. "Little children," says 
John, "it is the last time," meaning by that it is the last dispensation of this world's 
history. This is the time in which salvation is to be proclaimed. "Begotten again to 
a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance 
reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith unto 
salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." That was in the millennial age! 
Wait until the next age comes! No, that is not in any millennial age. It is now, in 
the last time: "And it will come to pass in the last time that I will pour out my 
spirit upon all flesh." That is what Peter quoted from Joel at Pentecost, and which 
he said was fulfilled then. "God who at sundry times and in divers manner spake 
by the prophets hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son." Not in the last 
days of any special dispensation, but in the last dispensation that this world will 
ever see. There is none other coming. Better get ready for the jubilee now! 
(Laughter and applause) 

It is sheer nonsense to talk about a millennial age in which a person is going to be 
a thousand years getting saved, sliding along, raising a little higher and higher, 
evoluting, evolving, and by and by getting saved! (Applause) If the great God in 
heaven cannot save a man in the twinkling of an eye He is not Almighty! 


My brother says there is no salvation in the present time. No one is saved now. 
That is very strange doctrine. We do not Icnow how a man can say that in the face 
of all the declarations — that one only has a mortgage on his salvation (laughter) 
and gets the proof of it in the millennial age! The devil has got a mortgage on 
some fellows (laughter) but the Lord does not have to save people by a mortgage. 
He can save them now! "Ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for 
Me with all your heart. " What does that mean? That you cannot find GOd now? 
He would tell you that was written by Jeremiah to the people in captivity, and 
doesn't mean us! Or he would tell us that the prayer of David is only prophecy, to 
be fulfilled in some future time, or that the books of the Pentateuch apply only to 
the Jews, and the book of Romans was written to the Romans, and none but the 
Romans can get anything out of it — although I notice that our brother gets a 
good deal out of it when he wants to! (Applause, in which Pastor Russell joined) 

It is all very well to make a selection of texts just when they suit your argument! 
If that is the case, we get no revelation from the Word of God, and might as well 
close it up. You cannot cheat me out of the Fifty-first Psalm or the Thirty-second 
Psalm, where the prophet praises God that his sins are forgiven, and that his soul 
is saved. You cannot cheat me out of the provisions of God's grace, by saying it 
was written at such a time and to such a people. The great truths are applicable to 
all people. "Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give 
you rest," said Jesus. That was spoken to the Jews, one of the most comforting 
promises ever made to men, and one we hold now, under which we can have this 
great salvation. His spirit witnesseth with our spirit that we are children of God. 
Not children by and by, because we are not waiting for any millennial age to find 
out whether we are going to be His children. 

I was rather in hope that this millennial business was not going to complicate 
matters tonight, but it is still cropping out, and we can't get rid of it. (General 
applause) He says if Christ be not raised, then all are perished. I wonder what was 
the deeper meaning of Paul in that statement, "If Christ be not raised, then all are 
perished." That there is no atonement; if no atonement you can go back logically 
to the fact that there is no Christ; 


that there was no sacrifice for sins; that there was no arrangement for salvation, 
and that there was no God. 


The resurrection of our Lord Jesus settled and fixed as a fact that Jesus Christ 
was God's Son. Paul says, "If thou wilt confess with thy mouth and believe with 
thy heart, thou shalt be saved." What was he to confess? If Christ was dead, not 
resurrected, then there was no sacrifice, no redemption, nothing to believe; but the 
man who believes that Christ was raised believes the whole system of the logical 
belief; on the principle that the greater includes the less, that the last great link 

binds the whole chain together, so if he believes that Christ was raised from the 
dead he believes the whole theological system. If Christ is not raised from the 
dead there is no Paradise, heaven, hades, Tartarus, life or immortality. 

Paul does not belittle Christ; his is a tremendous argument. But this whole 
argument of our brother's belittles Christ, and when he puts him on a throne in a 
millennial age-time of blessing, he makes Him a little Napoleon or Caesar. 
(Laughter) He tells us about this gospel age, and that it is simply a select few, a 
small class, and quotes from that remarkable utterance of James in the 15th 
chapter of Acts, at the first council of the apostles at Jerusalem, as to what they 
would do with the new heathen converts. 

All. the others had spoken, and James winds up the argument: "Simon hath 
declared how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his 
name." With that one sentence my brother interprets the whole Bible, as though 
the great thought was that we have no other business in this world, no other care, 
than to take out a preacher or a minister here and there to do the work of the 
millennial age. (Laughter) The whole thing turns on that! 

If he had read on to the next verse he would have seen differently. James quotes 
from the prophet: "And to this agree the words of the prophet. After this I will 
return, and build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down, and will 
build again the ruins thereof and set it up, that the residue of men might seek after 
the Lord, that is, every other man upon the face of the earth (tumultuous applause 
broke the speaker's utterance, as the entire audience recognized that the point was 
in favor of the opponent), and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, 
may seek the Lord." (Great applause) 


Now, I say, friends, I repudiate that teaching, and calling it the gospel is a 
misnomer; and saying that we are saved, a resurrection, which is not the 
resurrection of Christ, but our resurrection, is all wrong. The great atonement, the 
Son of God, the second person in the glorious Trinity, is entirely forgotten. The 
process is a mechanical one in his mind, it is a work accomplished by a great 
institutional movement, the millennium, and Christ is belittled, the Holy Ghost is 
belittled, pentecost is belittled. I know what I am talking about, for I have read the 
brother's writings, and he says nothing about pentecost in the way it ought to be 
presented. It is not set forth as a birth, the inauguration of the kingdom of God on 
earth, the outpouring of the spirit, salvation of three thousand the first day and two 
thousand the next, the birth of the church, the spreading of the truth from 
Jerusalem and through the whole earth. 

The whole thing is belittled. He would belittle Christ's own words, "The spirit of 
the Lord is upon me," etc. He says that does not occur now; no broken hearts are 
being healed in this gospel age, no prisoners set free; they are not being liberated 
now and never have been, and are to wait till the millennial age. When Jesus 
quoted those words, and sat down. He said: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in 
your ears!" (Applause) 

Christ is saving the people by the hundred thousand! He has saved me, and I am 
able to put my hand upon my heart and look to the judgment throne of heaven and 
say, "Therefore being justified by faith, I have peace with God through our Lord 
Jesus Christ." I shall never in any millennial age be able to say that more clearly 
than now. He is saving the lame by putting something into their souls that will 
make them walk free from temptation; He is saving the prisoners, by freeing them 
from sins and giving them the blessings of salvation. Those were His miracles, 
and He is fulfilling them still today. The great gospel of Jesus Christ is going to 
the end of the world. When I was a boy I used to hear the people praying, "Lord 
open the doors of the heathen world." Within 25 years the door of every heathen 
land has been opened to the human race. There is scarcely a nation that is not 


And Bishop Thobum has told us at our conference two weeks ago that he had 
baptized many persons in that little district in India; and when he asked a minister 
how many of the people there were who would be baptized if they had the 
opportunity, I think he said 15,000,000 were ready for baptizing if we could give 
it. The world wants to be saved, if we will stop talking salvation after death, and 
get the work of saving done. It will be saved if we will stop the wickedness of the 
dark ages, that our brother referred 


to, and with which I heartily agree. It will be stopped if the churches will go to 
work, as they are now doing, awake to their duty. Our brother doesn't want to see 
them saved. He wouldn't give a penny to have the world saved, just because he 
has this theory that a few people are to be ministers and priests for the millennial 
age. If you pin your faith on the millennium you will never find any millennial 
age. And if I don't show you on Thursday night that the whole millennial business 
is sheer and absolute nonsense, then I am a fool! (General applause) 

A very important part of this discussion is, what are we going to do about 
Lazarus and the rich man? (Laughter) I have asked night after night for his 
explanation, and I haven't got it yet. He has refused thus far to give his 
interpretation, but I have it in print. Now, this is important. If there is probation 
after death, it is in the intermediate state, and the theory of the rich man and 
Lazarus settles it. If there is any soul sleeping after death, the story of the rich 
man and Lazarus ought to settle it. But there is no soul-sleeping after death, nor is 
there any probation after death. Jesus said that very plainly. Ourbrother feels the 
force of that; there is no question about it. He feels that the rich man and Lazarus 
is fatal to his whole doctrine, and if he cannot get some mythical interpretation, or 
some institutional interpretation, or ecclesiastical interpretation, then his theory is 
hit square in the face. 

There is a plain story of two persons, a good and a bad man. My brother starts out 
by saying he sees no reason why this rich man should be damned. I am going to 

readjust what he said: "While this is stated as a parable, it is generally treated as a 
literal statement." It reads as a literal statement in the Scriptures; but I am willing 
to treat it either way, to suit him. My brother states that this rich man went to 
hades because he was rich and had enjoyed many favors. 


Why, there are three reasons given why he went to hades: First, because, having 
riches, he loved them, his heart was set upon them, as illustrated in the case of 
every rich man in the Scriptures, from Achan, who stole the wedge of gold, to 
Judas, who sold his master. Second, Lazarus, covered with sores, was not relieved 
by him. The third, that he rejected Moses and the prophets, which God had given 
to save his soul. Now, my brother, if you will interpret Scriptures that way and 
publish that, you are not a safe leader of men! (Laughter) He says we don't know 
that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom. That he was a Jew was enough; 
there is no other reason to be given. "The coveted place in Abraham's bosom, if 
literal, would not take in many of the millions of the world." I admit that not very 
many hundred millions could get there, but can he dispose of Scripture that way? 
The Lord referred to Abraham's bosom because it was a general phrase of speech. 
Among the Jews it was well known as a way of referring to future bliss, as much 
so as the word heaven is among the people of this city. But why consider 

"In a parable the thing said is never the thing meant!" Think of that! Do you 
believe that, you are not a safe leader of men the Good Samaritan! (Laughter) If 
the Good Samaritan parable doesn't mean what it says it doesn't mean anything. 
Try it on the four great parables of Luke, the Good Samaritan, the Rich Man and 
Lazarus, the Importunate Widow and the Prodigal Son. They all mean exactly 
what they say. But our brother says it does not mean what it says, and quotes the 
parable of the wheat and the tares, which doesn't mean what it says, I admit. 
(Great applause) Do you know what you are cheering for? (Voices, Yes, sir!) I 
merely meant that while in a parable it is not true that the thing said is never the 
thing meant, always, it is generally the thing said that is meant. 

I deny that Luke ever intended this parable to be a figurative expression. 
Matthew was always giving parables about the kingdom, and you can always 
attach an ethical meaning or an organizational meaning, or a figurative meaning 
to the things he wrote. He did not know very much about individuals or 
characters; his writing is all about the kingdom. Matthew was the great 
millennialist; he cherished the ideas of the Jews being restored to their dominion, 
and makes kingdom out of everything. But Luke wrote for the Greeks, who 
adored character and worshipped the idea of the individual, and Luke records 
Jesus Christ as the characteristic man. He disregards a great deal of his divinity. 
Matthew writes of the centurion, "Surely this was the Son of God." Luke doesn't 
write it that way. He writes, "Surely this was a righteous man! " 


This parable is simply wasted and evaporated by giving it the interpretation our 
brother does. He says the rich man was the Jewish nation, having God's promises, 
and given royal favors, and under the law of God, and Lazarus was the Gentiles, 
without favor, and in a sin, sick condition because of God's disregard. 

Why didn't he say that the rich man is the great heathen world, with its power and 
armies and regal authority. If there is any parable that is the way to interpret it. 
Then I should say that Lazarus, if there is any place on the green earth that he 
should represent, 


would be Judaism, because Lazarus was a Jew, and for nearly 4,000 years they 
had been under the heel of the great powers of the world. You see, my 
interpretation is just like his, and just as foolish as his is. There is not an atom of 
sense in either of them. The fact is that that is a tremendous story when Christ our 
Lord represents the condition of hades, with its dark gulf, rolling its surges 
between Tartarus and Paradise, and a soul sent to Tartarus for evil use of wealth, 
and another godlike person found in Abraham's bosom. There is a great moral 
lesson for every sinner in Allegheny. The question of probation after death is 
settled by that parable. There is a tremendous difficulty before the person who can 
make texts slip and slide everywhere, as our brother does. If that is an honest 
interpretation of the Bible, then I do not know right from wrong. (Great applause) 

He talks a good deal about the thief in paradise, and tells us that paradise was in 
Eden — that there was no paradise for the thief to go to. Then where did Paul go? 
I wonder that people follow that sort of interpretation. I do not know how this 
brother dares to stand before this audience and talk about another chance. I dare 
not take so tremendous a responsibility upon my hands. I have preached from the 
beginning of my ministry that Jesus Christ was a great Saviour, the Son of God, 
who died for the sins of the whole world, and I preach that He will save now, with 
a precious salvation. We are saved now with the power of Jesus Christ and the 
Holy Ghost. There is no wisdom nor device nor knowledge in sheol, whither thou 
goest. These words are carefully selected by the Holy Ghost to indicate that there 
is no means of salvation in sheol. Do it now, for this is your last chancel 


Pastor Russell said in reply: 

I had hoped that we should have heard more from Brother Eaton respecting the 
resurrection. What I have to say about the last days and last time of this age shall 
be said on Thursday evening. Respecting the holy spirit, I do not think our brother 
has read what we have to say about this, for we have said a great deal concerning 

the spirit and its work. I shall be pleased to send him a copy of Vol. V of the 
"Millennial Dawn" series, in which this matter is treated. 

We fully agree with our brother that there was a partial fulfillment of Isa. 61, at 
our Lord's first advent, but there is much yet to be fulfilled, for our Lord did not 
then open the prison doors and release the prisoners, according to the prophecy. 
There are blessings coming to you and me now, in a spiritual way, but these are 
not all that is contemplated in this text. In Acts 3: 19, the Apostle Peter tells us 
that at the Lord's second advent will be the time for the general blotting out of 
sins against the race of mankind, as the opportunity for salvation is given them 
fully. We have a measure of release now, and we thank God for it. The brother 
cannot extol the privilege too highly to suit me; but the great mass of the world is 
still the groaning creation. The Lord's consecrated in Pittsburgh and Allegheny 
are but a small proportion of the population in these cities. The mass of them in 
these two of the most favored of the cities in the world, are still groaning in 
darkness, ignorance and slavery to sin, "waiting," as the apostle declares, "for the 
manifestation of the sons of God." 

In the glorious millennial age not merely will the holy spirit come upon the few, 
not merely upon the "servants and handmaidens" of Joel's prophecy, but upon "all 
flesh." The prophet makes a distinction, saying that the former class shall have the 
Holy Spirit "in those days," and "all flesh" shall have its privileges "after those 
days." (Applause) 

Our brother quoted from Peter, that we are begotten again, "unto a lively hope," 
but the proper translation would be "a hope of life, by the resurrection of the 
dead." We have a hope of life, a hope of resurrection now, and are waiting for its 
fulfillment when salvation shall be revealed in us at the end of the trial time of 
this gospel age. (Applause) 


Our dear brother differs from some of the standards of Methodism in respect to 
the meaning of parables. He is forced, you see, to lay all the stress of his argument 
upon this parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which we shall take up Thursday 
night. Dr. Adam Clark was a fairly authoritative Methodist (laughter and 
applause) and Dr. Adam Clark says, "A parable shall never be used for the basis 
of a doctrine!" (Loud applause) If there is nothing better to offer than a parable, 
better keep quiet! (Applause) In our brother's emphatic remarks about the thief in 
Paradise, I notice that he adds to the word of God considerable things that are not 
in the record at all. I am not charging our dear brother with any intentional 
duplicity. I believe the dear brother to be honest, as I also am, but we need to have 
our minds wide open, to see what the Lord hath spoken. It is not for Brother Eaton 
or myself to speak by inspiration tonight; the record is in God's word. 

Dr. Eaton closed by saying: 

I had no speech prepared for tonight. I came knowing that our brother was going 
to affirm a marvelous change at the resurrection, and knowing that I had a decided 
opinion to the contrary, and that is all I do know about it. I don't think our brother 


knows any more. I believe in the resurrection. "It is sown in corruption; it is raised 
in incorruption." That it is something more than the body. I do not believe that the 
same body which goes into the tomb will rise, but I do believe that something 
connected with our personality will be the basis of resurrection, and that 
something is not, to my mind, the thing that is dead. Of course, there is great 
difficulty in going before an audience in talking about the abstruse and difficult 
things of the resurrection of the human body. I shall not please my brother with 
what I shall say, and he does not please me with what he says; and perhaps neither 
of us will please anybody else. Like a seed that is sown and roots, there comes 
forth another, not identical, not the articles, but an identity, and that identity does 
not die. There is something about death that is not death in the sense of 
annihilation. Death never meant annihilation, so far as I know. 


The other night he said that Peter was glad that Jesus came out of hades. Was that 
why Peter was so enthusiastic? No. He was glad because Jesus was risen, the 
great miracle of the New Testament had taken place — notthe greatest miracle in 
human history, by any means, but the great event of our Savior's career. If that is 
true, the rest is true. If false, the rest is false. 

My brother said the other night, if a sinner did not have eternal life, how could he 
be eternally tormented? He could not be if eternal life meant immortality, but it is 
not immortality at all. Eternal life is the gift of God, but immortality is the life of 
the soul; not that the soul is said to be immortal but the soul will never perish 
because of anything in the soul itself There is no time limit for the soul, no device 
that will work its overthrow. The soul will live always. That is all I know about 
immortality. God gave it to the race at the beginning, but eternal life is altogether 
another thing. 

It is astounding that such men as Gladstone and Lyman Abbott and Joseph Edgar 
Beet have mixed up those two ideas, that eternal life and immortality mean the 
same thing. He does not differentiate between eternal life and immortality. Devils 
are immortal until something happens to kill them. (Applause from Pastor 
Russell) Don't miss the point now. There is nothing in themselves that will work 
to their killing. No being has power to destroy his own soul by any device that 
God has given. He made them to live — a living soul. They do not die, nor sleep 
in the grave. Some of the Sadducees believe that, and my brother is a Sadducee! 
(Laughter) A man who does not believe in spirit or immortality, but that one has 
to wait in the grave until the resurrection! Jesus condemned that position, and 
referred to Moses at the burning bush, and the Lord's words, "I am the God of 
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 




Head of the Bible House Congregation 

Maintains that Object of Christ's Advents 

is Blessing to All 


The last but one of the series of debates on the teachings of the scriptures 
between Pastor C. T. Russell of the Bible House congregation and the Rev. Dr. E. 
L. Eaton of the North Avenue Methodist Episcopal church, Allegheny, took place 
last evening at Carnegie Music hall, Allegheny, before one of the largest 
audiences that has ever filled that auditorium. 

The interest, which has been strong in the discussion from the start, has been 
augmented as the series went on, and when the final proposition comes up next 
Sunday at 3 p. m., it is assured that the crowds of last night and former night will 
be outdone, if that is possible. 

The Rev. Eli Miller was the selected chairman of 


last evening's meeting. Before the debate started 15 minutes were given to 
devotional exercises. 

The subject of last evening was: "The scriptures clearly teach that the second 
coming of Christ will precede the millennium; and that the object of both — the 
second coming and the millennium — is the blessing of all the families of the 

This was affirmed by Pastor Russell, who opened the debate with a 50-minute 
address. Dr. Eaton followed in the negative and then each spoke for 10 minutes in 
reply to the other. Pastor Russell in opening said: 


It will not be necessary for me to even attempt to quote the large number of 
Scriptures which declare that our Lord is coming again. The second coming of our 

Lord is well established in the Scriptures by many texts, and this is not the subject 
under discussion this evening. The second coming is admitted by both parties. 
The question is respecting the object of our Lord's coming. The view that I 
present is that our Lord will come before the millennium and that the work which 
will follow His coming will be a great blessing to the world, the millennial 
blessings that are promised in the Scriptures. It may not be amiss to remember a 
couple of texts, however, which bear upon this subject. 

The Apostle John writes, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not 
yet appear what we shall be, but when He shall appear we know that we shall be 
like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." That is the strong consolation of the 
Scriptures; we shall be like the Lord, as we read from First Corinthians 15, the 
other evening, "We shall be changed, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the 
kingdom of God; therefore all who will be inheritors of that kingdom, who shall 
be joint heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ, must first experience this resurrection, 
change from animal conditions to spiritual." That which is bom of the flesh is 
flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit," as our Redeemer declared. We 
must be born again; begotten of the spirit now, and in resurrection power born of 
the spirit, if we shall share with our Lord in the wonderful kingdom which He has 
promised to them that love Him, this kingdom for which you and I and all God's 
people for 1,800 years have been praying, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done 
on earth as it is done in heaven." 

Again, we remember our Lord's words, "I go to prepare a place for you, and if I 
go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself, that 
where I am there ye may be also." Glorious promise! We are looking for that 
time, the second coming of the Lord, when we shall receive this great blessing of 
a share in the kingdom. Our brother has conceded the point that the Scriptures 
teach nothing respecting the saints of God or anyone else going to heaven at any 
time preceding the second coming of the Lord. "No man hath ascended up to 
heaven, but the Son of man that come down from heaven." "David is not ascended 
to heaven," says Peter, nor any others who have died. They are waiting in death, 
waiting for the awakening time, waiting for the morning, when the Lord Jesus, as 
the bright and morning star, and as the sun of righteousness, with healing in His 
beams, shall arise, to bring blessing to all the families of the earth. 


The Scriptures teach that there will be wide blessing throughout the world at the 
time of our Lord's second coming, that is to say, following His second advent, and 
that these blessings are to be to all the families of the earth, and not as during this 
Gospel age, confined to a special few who have ears to hear and hearts to 
understand, 'Blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear," but 
there are many who have not this sight and hearing, for, the Apostle says, "The 
god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the 
light of the goodness of God should shine unto them." But the time also is 
promised, according to the Prophet, "when the blind eyes shall be opened, and the 
deaf ears unstopped, and it shall be unto the Lord for a name and for an 
everlasting sign, that shall not be cut off" We are not preaching universal 

salvation. We wish to make this clear. Universalism proposes that everyone shall 
be saved eternally. It is not the teaching of the Scriptures; which declare that 
"There is no other name given under heaven or amongst men whereby we must be 
saved" but the name of Jesus. 

To our understanding none but those who accept Christ and form character are fit 
for the kingdom or for any other everlasting condition of blessing; that God has 
never promised everlasting life to any except those who do fonn character, and 
who form it on the basis of faith in His Son. Our position is that the Scriptures 
teach that in the millennial age all shall know, in order that they may believe, as 
the apostle declares, "God, our Savior, will have all men to be saved and come to 
the knowledge of the truth, for there is one God and one Mediator between God 
and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified 
in due time." "Not testified to all now, because all have not the ears to hear. 
Whosoever hath an ear to hear, let him hear." Do not keep it back from anybody; 
let everybody who 


has a hearing ear have it, and let him be blessed; but many are not in a condition 
to know God's proposition at present. In due time all shall have that glorious 


Then comes the question. Will this millennial blessing and kingdom precede the 
second coming of our Lord? Could it do so? That is the thought that a great many 
have, that God commissioned the church to convert the world, and after that 
conversion the Lord will come and say, "Well done, as well done as I could have 
done Myself" But, dear friends, nearly nineteen hundred years have passed since 
the gospel began; nearly nineteen hundred years since Pentecost, and what do we 
see? Evidences that the church could convert the world? We answer, no. Thank 
God, there is some impression made upon the world; we are glad of it. As our 
Lord said, we are lights in the world, and the light reproves the darkness and has a 
little effect here and there; but the number on the Lord's side is comparatively 
small; the number of saints is still very much of a minority, and if you and I have 
any hope that there is anything we could do to bring in the millennium, it is 
because we have not examined the subject properly. 

Consider how many are converted every year, and then tell me how far we shall 
be off in thousands of millions of years from the world's conversion. The number 
of heathen in the world is away out of proportion to the number of converts. The 
births, according to the flesh, keep right along, but the births according to the 
spirit are limited and cannot be transmitted from father to son. In these nineteen 
hundred years we have no encouragement that the church is able to bring in the 
conditions for which we are praying, "Thy kingdom come." The church is the 
kingdom in the embryo sense; the class which God is taking out as a people for 
his name, and this church, when glorified with full kingdom power and honor, 
shall bless the families of the earth, when it is all gathered out. 

It is the seed of Abraham, as Paul declared in Galatians 2: 29, "Then are ye 
Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." What was the promise? The 
promise was that the seed should bless all the families of the earth. The seed is not 
yet complete; therefore, the blessing of the families of the earth is not begun. The 
glorification of this class is first necessary, then the knowledge of the Lord shall 
fill the whole earth as the waters cover the deep; then the kingdom shall have 
come, and the Lord's will begun to be accomplished on earth as in heaven. 


But let me suggest that if the whole heathen world were converted to as good a 
condition as this city of Allegheny — andfrom my standpoint of judgment 
Allegheny is one of the most moral and religions cities in the world — howfar 
would it be from that condition which the Lord declares shall obtain? You haven't 
any hope of turning the whole world in the present time to any better condition 
than we have here, and no man has the power to produce any better condition 
now. Well, then, is God's will done in Allegheny as it is done in heaven? No, 
most assuredly. Then it is necessary for the kingdom to crush out the various evils 
in the world, to bind Satan, that he shall deceive the nations no more, before the 
promised blessings shall fill the whole earth and bring the intended restitution. 

Notice some Scriptures which refer to the condition of the world at the second 
advent. In Matthew 24, the Lord gives us a picture of the whole gospel age, down 
to its end, and right down at the close there is no suggestion of the world being 
converted, but the very opposite. At the close of that prophecy He tells of 
deceiving things, that would deceive, if possible, the very elect, and bids us be on 
our guard, to hold fast the precious word. His word is again, "When the Son of 
Man Cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" The intimation is that faith will 
somehow or other be on the decrease at that time. So we find it. 

Higher criticism, evolution, worldly philosophy are undennining the faith of 
God's people, so that they are not believing nearly as much as their fathers did of 
God, His power and His character. Again, the words of the apostle, "Evil men and 
seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." He is 
speaking of seduction from the faith of the gospel. Higher criticism is seducing in 
our day, and various delusions are drawing aside from the faith. The apostle 
points to this as evidence of conditions at the end of the age. He writes to 
Timothy, "In the last days (of the age) perilous times shall come" — notthe world 
converted and everybody on the Lord's side. 


Our Lord pictured how it would be in the end of the age. The parable of the 
talents and the parable of the pounds. The nobleman distributed his possessions to 
his servants, and went into a far country. What did he go into a far country for? 
"To receive for himself a kingdom — andto return." The Lord was drawing an 
illustration from Herod's course, who went to Rome to be invested with authority 

as king; and as Herod, when he came back, rewarded those who would be faithful 
to him and punished those who were unfaithful, so the 


Lord illustrates His departure, into heaven itself, leaving the talents of opportunity 
with His people, saying, "Occupy till I come." Then he tells us about the 
nobleman's return, and the calling of the servants-not the world — andreckoning 
with them. 

I trust many of you are servants of the Lord, who have received pounds and 
talents of the Lord, who are occupying and using these to serve His cause, and 
that when the Lord shall reckon with us we shall prove ourselves faithful servants, 
having profited by the stewardship, and may thus receive the Lord's 
commendation, "Well done, good and faithful servant; enter into the joy of thy 
Lord. Thou hast been faithful over a few things. I will make thee ruler over many 
things." Ruler over what? Some one says everything is to be destroyed. Not so. 
The world will be to rule over, to be brought into harmony with God. The 
knowledge of the Lord is to be made to fill the whole earth, and God is going to 
use instruments in accomplishing this work. 

In one of these parables the Lord speaks of ruling over cities. Where are they? 
The thought is that those who are the Lord's servants in this gospel age, if they use 
their talents, in due time, when He returns, having received the investiture of His 
kingdom. He shall establish the kingdom, and these faithful ones shall be 
associated in it for the advancement of the world. As the Scriptures express it, 
"They shall be kings and priests unto God, and shall reign with Him a thousand 


That brings us to the thought that the Scriptures speak of this work during the 
millennial age as a judgment work. Unfortunately a very serious error has crept 
into the minds of many, and they speak of the day of judgment as though it were a 
day of damnation. They take a great many unscriptural ideas concerning it, as 
Brother Talmage described it — thatChrist would descend in glory and sit upon 
the rim of a cloud, and the earth would turn upon its axis and a few here and there 
would come to Him, while to the world in general He would say, "Damn you! 
Damn you!" An awful picture for a Christian minister to present to his hearers! 
There are very hazy ideas in the minds of people in general concerning this day of 
judgment. The Scriptural view is that it is the whole millennial age, the thousand- 
year judgment day, for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years." During that 
thousand-year day the whole world is to be judged; not judged in the way that 
Brother Talmage thought, but with righteous judgment. We use the word judge in 
the sense of trial — that is the ordinary thought in the word. 

One must be tried before being sentenced, and this thought is contained in the 
Scriptural use of the word judgment. During the gospel age all of the Lord's 
people are on trial, on judgment; there is the judgment day before the Lord, and 

we shall be required to give an account. The reckoning will be totaled up at the 
end of the trial, and a decision passed. It is very nice to speak about God saving a 
man instantly, but even in the Methodist church they have a few months' 
probation before a person will be received into that earthly church. (Laughter and 

How about receiving a man into the glorified church? Do you not think that it 
will take time for each individual to develop character in order to become 
members of the little flock? Will it not need some probationary experience first? 
Is not the Lord having us now in our various trials and difficulties under a process 
of preparation, to make us "meet for the inheritance of the saints in light," as the 
apostle says? 


When you started on your trial, when all Christians started on their trial, were 
they tried for the sins that .are past? Are they being tried now for the sins that are 
passed? No, God mercifully forgives your sins; they were committed in ignorance 
and weakness before you knew Him. They are not counted against you at all. As 
the apostle speaks of the blessing of God concerning the "sins that are past 
through His forbearance." You are forgiven, the Lord's mercy is exercised toward 
you, and you hear of His pardon; "Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven, 
whose transgression is covered!" Then how will it be with the world? He is the 
same God, He is no respector of persons, that He should forgive your sins that are 
past, and should thrash all the others for their sins. 

If you believe God exercised mercy toward you, and forgave you your sins, then 
believe also that the Lord has a similar arrangement for the world. I am not 
speaking of wilful sins; I understand that everyone wilfully sinning will receive 
punishment to the extent of the wilfulness, but sins that are committed in 
ignorance and blindness will be forgiven through the merit of Christ. For instance, 
Peter says of those who crucified the Lord: "I wot that in ignorance ye did it, as 
did also your rulers." God was able to forgive them, and our Lord's prayer was: 
"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." That is the kind of a God we 
love; that is the God of the Scriptures, and that is the reason we love and worship 
and appreciate Him. He is a merciful God, that He should be reverenced, as the 
Psalmist says. (Applause) 

The world, then, is not going to be on judgment for 


the sins that are past. To a certain extent every sin that everyone commits has an 
effect upon the individual at the time. You know how weaknesses and sins of 
youth have been entailed by many down to their gray hairs. You know they have 
suffered more or less, although they had the forgiveness of the Lord. So with the 
whole world. The world, in proportion as they degraded themselves, have in 
themselves the punishment for their sins, a certain degradation, and during the 
millennial age, when they come to the great uplifting time that God has promised 

through Jesus, those degraded ones will have that much more of a journey to go 
before they shall get back to that justified, perfect condition which must be 
attained before they will be approved in God's sight. 


Restitution will require that time and effort on their part be expended, and thus 
throughout all their judgment-trial time they will be required to overcome the 
weaknesses and imperfections until they have attained the end of the millennial 
age. The Scriptures refer to this day of judgment in a very different way than that 
which most people today regard it. The proper thought is that God is going to 
offer to the world eternal life, if when they come to a knowledge of Him they 
choose to render obedience to Him. Knowledge is the first pre-requisite; no man 
shall be saved in ignorance. 

When he comes to the knowledge of the truth, and is obedient to it, in that 
proportion he may have divine favor. This principle is applicable now, to all who 
hear, and will be in operation upon the world when they shall come to know God 
as He really is, to know that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, to 
realize God's mercy, and I believe it will reach many of their hearts, and when 
they rightly divide between truth and error, light and darkness, the majority of 
people will want to choose the right! (Loud applause) 

Nothing in the Scriptures tells us what will be the proportion of those who will 
finally reject and how many will finally accept, but we do know that "The gift of 
God is eternal life" only for those who love and serve and obey Him, and those 
who will not have this King to reign over them shall eventually die the second 
death, from which there is no recovery. That was the case in the parable. After the 
nobleman had dealt with his servants he turned to his enemies: "Bring hither mine 
enemies, and slay them." 

There will be hundreds and thousands of millions, nearly the whole world, in this 
attitude of opposition toward God, for comparatively few, a little flock, are the 
Lord's servants. And when they are brought up in the millennial age they will be 
given the opportunity to decide whether they are enemies of Him or not. Then we 
shall find the sword of the Lord, the word of truth, shall slay them; it shall 
discover the secret springs of their hearts and those who realize Him as their 
Master and accept Him as such, will be permitted to attain the full measure of 
favor the Lord has promised; and those who reject and resist the opportunities will 
be cut off, as the prophet has declared: "A sinner that is an hundred years shall be 


David prophesied of the judgment day in First Chronicles 16: 31-34. Notice how 
David was glad there was a judgment day. "Let the heavens be glad and the earth 
rejoice, and let men say among the nations, °The Lord reigneth; ' let the sea roar 
and the fulness thereof; let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein; then shall the 
trees of the wood sang at the presence of the Lord, because He cometh to judge 

the earth." They did not have the thought that judgment would mean the 
damnation of nearly everybody; they longed for the judgment time, because it 
signified a time of deliverance and blessing. In the olden time they had their 
judges, who came amongst them for deliverance and blessing, and now God has 
proposed to raise up the great antitypical judge, the Lord Jesus and the church His 
body, that this great judge shall bless all the people with the wise government that 
is necessary for their uplift. 

So we read again that "God hath appointed a day" — a future day — "in the 
which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath 
ordained" — and the word righteousness here signifies equitable, just, in accord 
with the foundation principles of God's character, which guarantees that the 
ransom through Jesus Christ will be made fully applicable to every member of the 
race of mankind. The world needs this great trial, to see whether they will have 
life everlasting or choose death. If they want life they must choose it by 
obedience. If they choose disobedience they will choose the penalty, and "the 
wages of sin is death." (Applause) 

Revelation gives a picture in the twentieth chapter of the millennial kingdom — 
five different pictures of the same kingdom. The first verse opens by saying, "I 
beheld thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" — 
tothe saints, the church, with the Lord, in the time of the blessing of the world. 
Then he proceeds to tell how Satan will be bound, while the judgment is 
proceeding; then the statement that the "dead world shall not live until the 
thousand years are finished," which we discussed the last session. It will require 
the thousand years to build 


up character. 


Some of them are very degraded; they will need much help before they will be 
worthy of life, so that it could be properly said that God's will is done on earth as 
it is done in heaven. That will shall not be perfectly done until He will have 
conquered the world, then this statement of Revelation declares, "Every creature 
in heaven and earth heard I, saying 'Blessing and glory and honor unto Him that 
sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb ! " Further down in the chapter we read of 
the great white throne — the throne of purity and righteousness and equity, 
equitable judgment — and of the opening of the books, the Books of Scriptures, 
"and the dead shall be judged out of the things written in the books" — the dead 
world, dead in the sense that God does not recognize them as having right to life, 
dead in the sense that they have not the Son, who has the eternal life, and whom 
they must have in order to possess it. These dead are to be judged — notwhile in 
the grave, but while on trial before the judgment throne, Christ and the church. 
This reminds us of the Lord's own statement, "My word shall judge them in the 
last day." That will be the only standard of judgment then. 

The parable of the sheep and the goats is another which refers to the millennial 
age. The introduction shows that it does not belong to the gospel age at all. "When 
the Son of man shall come in His glory" — He has not come in His glory yet — " 
and all the holy angels with Him, then shall the Son of man sit upon the throne of 
His glory, and before Him shall be gathered all nations" — in what sense? In the 
sense that you and I stand before the great Judge every day in our trial — we are 
under His observation. Then the parable goes on to show a division. The 
judgment day will be the thousand years, and during that time some will be taking 
their places at the right, and some at the left, and at the close of the day all the 
sheep of the whole world will be gathered at the right hand, and all the goats of 
mankind will be gathered at the left hand, and the Lord's decision for reward or 
punishment will follow. But where is the church during that judgment of the 
world? We answer in the Lord's words, "They shall sit with Me in My throne." 


The judgment work shall be preceded by a great time of trouble, as declared by 
Daniel — "God will take the kingdom and give it to the saints of the Most High." 
Although the kingdom shall ultimately be one of peace and blessing, the usurping 
prince now in 

control must be overthrown, and with him all the social institutions which he has 
projected and established, and in this work "there shall be a time of trouble such 
as was not since there was a nation," declares the prophet, and our Lord confirms 
that word and adds, "No, nor ever shall be." 

Peter speaks of this time in figurative language, declaring, "The heavens being on 
fire shall be dissolved; the earth also and the works that are therein shall be 
burned up. The elements shall melt with fervent heat." 

This highly figurative language expresses a similar thought to that we sometimes 
use, when speaking of great financial or political disturbance, "It is getting very 
hot! " But that the words are not literally understood, let me quote you the prophet 
Zephaniah, "Wait ye upon Me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the 
prey; for My determination is to gather the nations that I may assemble the 
kingdoms, that I may pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger, 
for the whole earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy" — that's the 
kind of fire. The very next verse says, "Then shall I turn to the people a pure 
language that they may call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one 
consent. (A storm of applause here interrupted the speaker.) 

In Revelation 11, "The nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come" — they were 
not converted then! — " and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and 
Thy servants the prophets, and the saints, and them that fear Thy name small and 
great." (Applause) This is at the end of this age, when the Lord takes to Himself 
His great power and begins His reign. He has had the power ever since He rose 
from the dead, when He said, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in 
earth," but it is one thing to have the power, and quite another thing to use it. In 
Acts 3: 19-21, times of refreshing are spoken of as coming at the times of 
restitution of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets, and which 

are to be ministered by Christ whom the heaven is retaining until that glorious 
time, when He shall come again. (Applause) 

In Luke 27: 29, the Lord referred to Sodom and Gomorrah as destroyed by God's 
wrath, because of wickedness, but the Lord also declares in Matthew 11: 23, that 
"it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment" than 
for Capernaum. In other words, that it will be a tolerable time for Capernaum, and 
a more tolerable time for Sodom — because of greater responsibility on the part 
of the former. The Sodomites are to have a chance, and you can read at your 
leisure concerning their opportunity in the sixteenth chapter of Ezekiel, verses 48 
to 63. (Prolonged applause) 

When Pastor Russell sat down. Dr. Eaton began his 


reply which was as follows: 


I find myself able to congratulate my brother on having recited a great deal of 
Scripture, and a great deal of it just as I would have recited it myself, so I agree 
with him in a great many things. He is a good deal less harmful tonight than he 
has been in some of his utterances. (Laughter) However, most of the Scripture 
that has been quoted is capable of a number of different interpretations, a great 
deal of it is equivocal. We cannot settle a great question like this on Scripture that 
is of that sort. He said not long ago that parables never mean what they say, and 
he has demonstrated it tonight. (Laughter) "Now are we the children of God, and 
it is not manifested what we shall be, but when it is manifested we shall be like 
Him," says the revised American version. You have the revised version on sale, 
my brother, and it would be a good thing to read it. (Laughter) 

In interpreting Scriptures there are certain things one wants. First, common sense; 
second, education; third, the holy spirit. Those are three pre-requi sites. But, in 
addition to that, there are canons of interpretation that God has laid down, which 
we cannot neglect. One is in relation to the word, "Take heed how ye hear," "Take 
heed that no man deceive you," lest you fall, and speaking particularly to the 
church at Thessalonica, which had gone daft on the millennial idea, Paul warns 
them specially to take heed against the deceit of men. I can lead you anywhere, 
and so can my brother, if you let your brains have a vacation in the meantime; but 
if you are going to do your own thinking we cannot lead you anywhere. (Much 
applause, in which Pastor Russell joined) 

The second canon of interpretation is to interpret the figurative by the literal. You 
have had a hundred texts tonight, and they are the standard of our brother's style 
of interpretation — interpreting the literal by the figurative. It is all wrong. My 
brother reversed the proper rule, and has gone off into that marvelous creation and 
exhibition of ingeniousness which he has given us tonight. He is ingenious, his is 

a marvelously ingenious mind, but the ingeniousness is a dangerous kind, when it 
overthrows scriptural interpretation. 


The first illustration we have of interpreting figurative Scripture is by Joseph, 
with Pharaoh's dream. He interpreted seven lean kine coming out of the river as 
meaning seven years of famine. So Daniel, in the vision of Nebuchadnezzar. He 
interpreted the dream of an image in a literal way, and showed that it meant 
kingdoms. Our Lord gives a number of illustrations; every time they asked him to 
interpret any figurative story he always made it simply, a plain literal statement. If 
you don't follow this method you will always be on a sidetrack or in the ditch. 
(Applause) "These all died in faith, not having received the promises." 

Our brother has quoted that time after time. They did receive the promises from 
the days of Adam right down. What does the author of Hebrews mean when he 
says they died in faith not having received? Not having received the fulfilment of 
the promises, but seeing them afar off That is interpreting according to the 
analogy of faith. Peter puts the same doctrine in this form: "No prophecy of 
Scripture is of any private interpretation." You cannot let one doctrine of 
statement stand out in antagonism to the rest. Take one Scriptural statement and 
let that interpret the whole, as our brother does, when he takes the statement about 
selecting a people for the Gentiles, and you get a great mix-up. (Applause) 

Our Lord Jesus gave 50 parables, and never once mentioned a personal reign on 
this earth. I defy any man to find anything in the 50 parables or anywhere else 
where our Lord says anything about a person coming on this earth. I am not a 
post-millennialist, nor an ante-millennialist, nor a pre-millennialist, but I am an 
anti-millennialist, for I don't believe in any millennial nonsense at all. 


Christ will certainly come again to this world. I am exactly agreed with our 
brother there. He didn't come at the destruction of Jerusalem. He is coming in 
person, not to reign, not to set up, but to deliver up a kingdom. Christ's second 
coming is mentioned 318 times in the New Testament. "I go and prepare a place 
for you, and if I go and prepare a place, I will come again and receive you." My 
brother would have it read, "I go to prepare a place for you on earth, and when I 
am ready you can stay there and enjoy it all." The second coming is mentioned in 
260 chapters in the New Testament, and 318 times; it is mentioned in one verse in 
every twenty-five. It is a tremendous doctrine. (Enthusiastic general applause) 

Now, what is His coming for? He himself says it is to deliver up a kingdom. The 
first eight verses of the twentieth chapter of Revelation are the only ones that have 
any suggestion of a millennium in the Bible. "I saw thrones, and they sat upon 
them" — itdoesn't say who sat upon them, and we don't know who they were. "I 
saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the word of 
God" — these were the 


ones who did the reigning, and they were disembodied souls, they are the only 
ones that are going to be in the millennium with Jesus, the only ones to reign with 
Christ a thousand years. They may be living and reigning there now, for ought I 
know. I don't know anything about it. They may be reigning in paradise all the 
time. Jesus doesn't stay in paradise all the time, but I have no doubt he often visits 
it. You could give a thousand interpretations to this passage, but the best thing is 
to let it stand. 

It is prophecy, and we shall never know what prophecies mean until they are 
fulfilled. Nobody has been able to tell until they were fulfilled. "The rest of the 
dead lived not again." Our brother has tried to wiggle out of that, but it is a simple 
statement as it stands. 

"When the thousand years are finished Satan shall go forth to deceive the nations, 
to gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the 
seashore." The earth is covered with wicked nations, while Christ is reigning 
somewhere with His saints! There is the figurative story in a figurative chapter in 
a figurative book, and the book of Revelation has never been understood, though 
10,000 able and ingenious and conscientious men, as my brother is, have tried to 
interpret it and have not been able. Dr. Adam Clarke, one of the brightest 
commentators in the Methodist church, tried it and failed; yet he is a Methodist — 
almost as good a Methodist as I am! (Laughter.) 


There is no setting up of a kingdom in this chapter; there is no capital mentioned 
here that I know of, and no throne, except these judgment thrones. Where did they 
reign with Christ? It does not say whether on earth or where. Who are Gog and 
Magog, when Satan comes forth from his prison, and finds the earth peopled with 
wicked nations. These nations were on earth during that thousand years, because 
they were not destroyed at the beginning, nor resurrected at the close, and their 
battle begins after the millennium ends. If our brother had only got that big 
fighting into the period of the thousand years there would be a little to support his 
theory, but when the thousand years are finished the devil comes, and there is the 
devil to pay. (Laughter.) 

Christ's kingdom is referred to in prophecy, and I will select one reference. In the 
second chapter of Daniel is the dream of the metalic image that Nebuchadnezzar 
had, and which Daniel interpreted, "Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of the 
mountains without hands, and it struck the image upon the feet and ground it to 
powder, and the winds swept it away, and this stone grew, and became a great 
mountain that filled the whole earth." First it was the kingdom of stone, then the 
kingdom of the mountain-it is that today, thank God, and is rapidly filling the 
whole earth. The stone struck the image on its feet during the reign of the Roman 
emperors, the last of the empires represented by the image, following Babylon, 
Persia and Greece. 

The millennialists find that an awful picture to interpret, and in order to postpone 
the setting up of the kingdom until the time comes, they want to keep that image 
standing, and of all the wiggling and twisting they do to keep the image standing! 
They manage to think the toes are still here. So an ingenious man, Uriah Smith, 
the Battle Creek Adventist, manages to get ten toes still standing identified with 
ten countries in Europe, in which the Roman empire was split up; but the 
difficulty is that he has got all the toes on one foot. (Laughter.) 


"The kingdom shall not be left to other people," says Daniel. In other words, there 
is no dispensation to follow that kingdom. "That kingdom," says Daniel, "shall 
stand." It is the last period, the last days, the last everything that this world will 
ever see, when that kingdom is set up. That kingdom is now established, 
inaugurated in the day of Pentecost, and it is already the mountain kingdom, with 
more than four hundred millions of people that would die for Jesus Christ in five 
minutes! (Applause.) It is growing to be the kingdom of the whole earth right 
straight along. 

Christ's kingdom was introduced by John the Baptist, with the words, "Repent, 
for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." The same message went forth at the mouth 
of the Lord, and the twelve and the seventy who carried the word throughout 
Judea. Do you think the kingdom of Christ is a thousand years future from that 
message? Two thousand years have rolled by, and the kingdom, according to my 
brother, has not come at all, and yet John, our Lord, the twelve, and the seventy 
deceived that nation in saying it was at hand. (Applause.) Matt. 10: 23, "Ye shall 
not have gone over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come." Was not He 
already there? Was He talking nonsense? No. Christ came first in His incarnation. 
His second coming was the inauguration of the kingdom at Pentecost, and the 
third coming is as the judge of the world. 

Now, my brother, you cannot get a millennium into the Bible until you settle 
those literal statements. You have got to interpret by analogy of faith Matt. 16: 28. 
"There be some standing here that will not taste death until they have seen the Son 
of Man coming in His kingdom." Is that figurative? Just as literal as human 


language can be made. Some standing here — therewere twelve standing there, 
and eleven saw it — who should not taste death till they saw the Son of Man 
coming in His kingdom. He came on the day of Pentecost, and has been in His 
kingdom ever since. (Applause.) 

"There be some standing here that shall not taste death until they have seen the 
kingdom of God coming with power. " Now, my brother, when did the kingdom of 
God come with power? It came when all those men were alive, or else the 
scriptures are deceiving. If God has not given us a book we can interpret it is a 
pretty poor book. 


Let us see how He came. "Tarry ye at Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power 
from on high." and again, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is 
come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses unto Me." Now read the second chapter 
of Acts, where the spirit of God was poured out upon the people, the world, so to 
speak, was shaken by the tremendous demonstration of spiritual power, and 5,000 
persons joined the church in 48 hours. (Applause.) That was the coming of the 
Son of Man in His Kingdom. It came a little then, but it has been coming more 
and more all during the days since, and if the church had been loyal, instead of 
ignorant, in the past ages, it would have been coming much faster. 

But now the whole world is opening to the kingdom and Jesus told us how it 
would grow — like a grain of mustard seed, until it became a great tree and 
provided shelter for the fowls of heaven. "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto 
leaven, which a woman hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was 
leavened." I never yet heard a millennialist interpret that but said that leaven is 
always a type of sin, and that means that sin is going to spread until the whole 
world is full of it. But Jesus didn't say the kingdom of the devil is likened unto 
leaven — it was the kingdom of heaven! The Son of Man came in His kingdom. 
That kingdom is now leavening the human race, and will keep right on until the 
job is complete. He did not come to snatch here and there a few. 

Canon Ryle, bishop of Liverpool, said some strong things in favor of 
millennialism, and I have respect for the good men that teach that doctrine, but 
not for the doctrine itself It shows a lack of faith in God's word. The whole thing 
proceeds from the idea that God has been making a little effort, and then got sack 
of it, and is trying something else. This old world of ours, for ought we know, will 
last 50,000 years, and be peopled by the human race — no reason to doubt that! 
(General and prolonged applause.) Everything is in the beginning churches and 
creeds, and education, railways, and commerce, and science, everything in the 
morning of the world yet. It is going to get right by and by, under the leadership 
of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost and the consecrated church! 
(Tumultuous and continued applause.) 


The Lord said to our Redeemer, "Sit Thou at My right hand until — when? the 
restitution? No — until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. For He must reign 
until He hath put all enemies under His feet. (Much applause, in which Pastor 
Russell joined.) "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, until He hath set judgment 
in the earth, and the isles shall wait for His law!" (Great applause.) The first thing 
the kingdom of Jesus Christ did was to capture the islands of the Mediterranean, 
then Great Britain, the Sandwich islands, and the world over the islands are 
coming to God more rapidly than the continents. 

My brother has read a great many times a very interesting passage. I feel I ought 
to set him right upon it, and since I have the stuff here, I am going to do it. 
(Applause.) It is in the third chapter of Acts. "Repent and be converted, that your 

sins may be blotted, when times of restitution shall come." It does not so read in 
the Revised Version. "Reform and be converted, that your sins may be blotted 
out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord." 
That takes the wind out of your sails, my brother! You have to take that or the Old 
Version. I stand by this. You are to be converted so that you can have some good 
times, and power and glory and salvation. (Applause.) 
Pastor Russell interrupted here saying: "Read the next verse, brother." 

Yes, I'll read it all — sorryl didn't read it before. "Whom the heavens must 
receive until the restoration of all things — (tremendous general applause): 
whereof God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from 
of old. Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of 
your brethren like unto me; to Him shall ye hearken, in all things whatsoever He 
shall say unto you, and it shall be that every soul that shall not hearken of that 
people shall be utterly destroyed from amongst the people; for all the prophets, 
from Samuel and the prophets that followed, have told of these days. (Much 
excitement and prolonged applause, in which Pastor Russell joined.) 
Pastor Russell summed up as follows: 

Our dear brother has conceded that so far as the book of Revelation is concerned, 
and the twentieth chapter, he doesn't know anything about it. 


(Applause.) He says that nobody knows. Well, we take his word for that, so far as 
he himself is concerned (Applause.) But in the latter part of the chapter, when he 
began to interpret this that he doesn't understand, he calls our attention to the fact 
that Satan, after he is loosed, goes forth to deceive all people on the face of the 
whole earth, the number of whom is as the sand of the seashore; and we think he 
did not make a right application — not understanding it! (Laughter and applause.) 


The number, as the sands of the seashore, represents the whole population of the 
world at the close of the millennial age, when the thousand years are finished. 
During that thousand years, Satan being bound, all the evil restrained and the 
knowledge of the Lord flooding the earth, the whole world will come under the 
blessing that the Lord has promised by the mouth of all the holy prophets. At the 
close of that millennium all those thus tried and instructed, that they might rise 
out of degradation, up, up, up, to all that was lost in Adam, should properly have a 
test at the end of their trial, and it is the Lord's proposition that this shall come 
through Satan after his loosening! 

It does not say that all will be deceived by the testing, but that Satan goes forth to 
endeavor to deceive, and those who follow with him are to be sharers in the great 
destruction which shall come upon Satan at the end of the testing. The remainder 
will inherit the earth forever, for we agree with our brother that God made the 
earth to be inhabited; He created it not in vain, but formed it for the habitation of 
the world of mankind. 

Our brother has probably unintentionally chided us as believing in Christ's reign 
as a temporal kingdom. We never said a word of that kind. The Scriptures indicate 
that Christ and the church will be spirit beings, Satan, the god of the present evil 
world, exercises his power and authority without being seen — as a powerful 
spirit being; and when his usurped authority shall be overthrown by Christ it will 
not be necessary that he should be seen. He will continue to rule as a glorious and 
righteous spiritual judge, with the church, equally spirit beings with him, 
associated in the blessing work to be accomplished. 

Our brother calls attention to the stone that became a great mountain. He did not 
seem to get all that picture. Daniel saw in the different metals the world powers 
which were to exist, and last he saw the stone taken out of the mountain without 
hands. That stone is now being taken out. The mountains out of which it is taken 
are the kingdoms of this world, and the Lord is selecting the "living stones" that 
shall be a part of this great stone which shall eventually become the kingdom for 
rule and blessing and uplifting of the whole world. The stone, when complete, 
shall smite the image, not on its head, but its feet — inthe present-day 
representatives of the world power, Germany, France, Spain, Great Britain, etc., 
who all without right claim the title "kingdom of God," and who never have been 
owned of God as His representatives, but who shall be overthrown in the time 
when the Lord shall take to Himself His full power and commence the reign of 
the true kingdom of righteousness. 


Our brother thinks Christ's kingdom was established in Jerusalem, and quotes the 
words of John the Baptist and Jesus. To whom was the kingdom of heaven at 
hand? To the world? No. To the Jewish nation, to whom God had promised that it 
should be the kingdom if it accepted the offer. But, as John said, "He came to his 
own, and his own received him not." Then the Lord said to them, "The kingdom 
that was for you shall be taken from you and given to another people (interrupted, 
with great applause), bring forth the fruits of it." What people is God going to 
give the kingdom to? Those whom He has been taking out of the Gentiles for it. 

Dr. Eaton concluded the debate for the evening as follows: 

That last attempt to destroy the force of the tremendous texts I give loses itself 
entirely when we remember that what the Jews refused passed right on to the 
Gentiles. It was the same kingdom. If the Jews had it given to them in Jerusalem, 
we have the same kingdom, the same gospel, the same Holy Ghost and the same 
kind of preaching. (Applause.) The fact is, the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual 
kingdom. The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. (General applause.) 
Ye shall not say, Lo, here, or Lo, there, for the kingdom of God is within you. 

It is perfect folly to talk about Jesus Christ, a Spiritual Prince, reigning anywhere 
in any other sense than He now reigns in the hearts of those who love Him. The 
kingdom of God is not meat and drink, "not forms and ceremonies," but 
righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost." If there is to be an earthly 

kingdom there must be a semi-political system about it. He will have to be here 
personally, visibly, and to be supported by the results of this earth, for they will 
have to hoe potatoes and com and grow cabbage, for their own and His 

I have been reading today the Rev. A. B. Simpson's work on "The Gospel of the 
Kingdom," and he finds 15 Psalms and 51 chapters of the old testament altogether 
that do not mean anything but the 


millennium. I say that is a piece of stupid nonsense. Why not take a shovel and 
throw the whole thing into the millennium? Why didn't Dr. Simpson take the 
second chapter of Joel and put that into the millennium? The only reason he and 
other millennialists don't take the second chapter of Joel is that Peter put his hands 
on it and applied it to Pentecost. 

The brother is going to put the entire human family on the earth. He has 
calculated there might be a population of 252,000,000,000 or a quarter of a 
trillion. That is a tremendous population, but it isn't large enough. If one 
calculates according to the present rate of increase the population would not be 
less than ninety-eight trillions, ninety-eight billions, three hundred millions; and 
that divided over fifty-two million square miles of the earth's surface would give 
each man a piece of land about four feet square — the whole earth covered with 
people almost as thick as they sit in this audience! And yet people in a material 
world must be supported, and I cannot tell how; but they must be, for a thousand 
years! I don't want to go into a millenium where I can't sit down for a thousand 
years. (Laughter and applause.) 

If a man knows anything he knows that this planet is one of our solar system, and 
a thousand others that have been or are now or will be inhabited. There are 
600,000,000 of solar systems like ours, and Jesus Christ is declared in the Word 
of God to have made all things. Do you suppose He will come down on the grain 
of sand of ours, and reign here, where no eternal good could be accomplished by 
His doing any such thing? My Christ is too great in dignity and power for any 
performances of that kind. If it was necessary for Jesus Christ to go to the earth or 
any planet to die to save it He would go at any cost or sacrifice, but He will not go 
and set up a throne and be a little Napoleon or kaiser and jump around on the 
earth for 1,000 years. (Laughter.) 

God help us to get some ideas better than these. Bring down the great Creator of 
the universe, the second person in the glorious trinity, and put him on a little 
planet like this? It was all right in the days of the early church to have such ideas, 
because they didn't know of any other planet. They thought this was the place 
where everything centered and made up their minds this was where Christ was 
going to reign. But when men's ideas began to increase, and they got to 
understand how small our earth is, and how great the universe is, they simply 
said: O pshaw, your millenium! Believe it if you can! I can't do it! (Applause.) 




All of the Meetings were well attended, 
Many being Turned Away 



The last joint discussion of the series between the Rev. Dr. E. L. Eaton, pastor of 
the North Avenue Methodist Episcopal church, and Pastor C. T. Russell was held 
yesterday in Carnegie Hall, Allegheny. Six meetings have been held, the first one 
on October 18, and at every one of them all the seats were taken, while 
yesterday's discussion was even better attended, the audience crowding the aisles. 
Hundreds were turned away. 

The audience was pretty evenly divided in sympathy, and telling points made by 
either speaker were applauded impartially. The Rev. Dr. B. F. Woodbum presided 
and introduced the speakers. This proposition was debated:" The scriptures clearly 
teach that the divine penalty for sin — actual transgression of God's holy law — 
eventually to be inflicted upon the incorrigible, will consist of inconceivably great 
sufferings, eternal in duration." The Rev. Dr. Eaton led off with the affirmative 
and Pastor Russell supported the negative. Each speaker had 50 minutes to 
present his arguments and then each took 10 minutes for reply. 

During the debates the following ministers took charge in the order named: The 
Rev. Dr. W. H. McMillan, the Rev. Dr. Henry D. Lindsay, the Rev. Dr. J. W. 
Sproul, the Rev. John A. Jayne, the Rev. Eli 


Miller and Dr. Woodburn. In supporting the proposition Dr. Eaton said: 


We now leave the boundaries of time and space, and in this seek to explore some 
of the realities and mysteries of eternity. Hell is the last calamity; the eternal state 
of a lost soul. Opinion is practically universal on this point. The difference is 
chiefly concerning the quantity and quality of the calamity. Conjecture is of little 
value here. Human opinions are worthless, especially upon a subject which does 
not come level to the human mind. God has spoken; let us hear what He has to 

Do the scriptures clearly teach the eternal punishment of the wicked? The answer 
must be sought in the scriptures. There is not a single word in the Old Testament 
which means hell. In the discussion of the intermediate state it was shown that the 
word translated in the common version hell, sheol, when used with a modifying 
word, such as lower sheol, sheol from beneath, etc., means hell. It is referred to in 
the New Testament as hades, but neither word represents the eternal state. 

The only word in the Bible which means the eternal state of the lost is "gehenna," 
and in the American revision of the scriptures it is so translated. Gehenna — the 
Valley of Hinnom is first mentioned in connection with the boundaries of the tribe 
of Benjamin. It was located southeast of Jerusalem. Before the country was 
occupied by the Hebrews the valley had been defiled by every base practice in 
heathen rites, even the burning of children and the sacrificing of human beings to 
the god Moloch. All this was abolished by the Jews, and the old heathen ground 
was made odious by the good king Josiah and became the receptacle for the dead 
bodies of the city, where they were burned, including the bodies of criminals, and 
consequently a smoke could be seen ascending continually. 


In Isaiah it was called Tophet, and is the description of the punishment of a 
wicked king, probably Sen-necharib, whose army was over-thrown by the breath 
of Jehovah, and whose dead bodies were consumed in the valley of Hinnom. The 
word "gehenna" is an attempt to Hellenize the Hebrew word. It is a Greek word 
now, and comes into the New Testament thus. We have the word 12 times in the 
New Testament, and always correctly translated hell. It never means the 
detestable valley south of Jerusalem in the New Testament, but universally carries 
with it the horrible associations of the place from which the name is taken, and 
stands in the New Testament for the fiery blast which shall come against the 
enemies of God. 

Matt. 5: 22: "I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother without a 
cause shall be in danger of the judgment, and whosoever shall say to his brother, 
Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say to his brother. 
Thou fool, shall be in danger of gehenna-fire." 

There are three different grades of wrong-doing, and their appropriate penalties. 
To be angry with a brother would expose one to the civil courts; to say to one's 
brother Raca would expose one to the penalty of the Sanhedrin; but to condemn a 
brother to eternal infamy and hell would expose the one himself to that very 
penalty. That is the best that can be got in English of the Greek words. 

The court of heaven itself takes cognizance of the third class of offences. God is 
the judge, and the penalty is gehenna. It cannot, therefore, refer to a punishment 
of the present time, but some awful penalty which shall beset the soul in eternity, 
the dreadful catastrophy beyond death and the general judgment. 

Matt. 18: 8: "It is better to go into life maimed than that thy whole body shall be 
cast into gehenna — better to go into life with one foot, than that thy whole body 

should be cast into gehenna." If these were the only texts in the New Testament 
where the word gehenna is found, we might conclude that gehenna stood for some 
earthly, temporal sense, the body and not the soul being here involved. 


But in Matt. 10: 28 we learn that the soul as well as the body is involved in the 
doom of gehenna. "Fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the 
soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." 
Including the soul in the doom of final destruction clearly locates that doom 
beyond the scope of earth and time, and makes it an eternal experience. The soul 
cannot be consigned to the literal valley of Hinnom for punishment, but beyond 
this earth it will be consigned to gehenna for its everlasting doom. "It is better to 
enter into life halt or maimed than to be cast into everlasting fire." The word 
gehenna does not appear here, yet it is the same class of comparisons that is 
mentioned in the sermon on the mount. This intimates that gehenna and 
everlasting fire refer to the same thing. 

Mark 9: 47 says, "It is better to enter into the kingdom of God" — thus the 
entering into life is associated with entering into the kingdom. This established 
the fact that the judgment upon the soul is not in time, nor confined to the 
boundaries of this life, but that it explicitly extends to the life which is to 


come. In Mark 9: 43-48 we have these same injunctions to cast off an arm or foot, 
and pluck out an eye, associated with the same penalties that attach for refusal to 
obey Christ, and these words, "To go into gehenna, into the fire that never shall be 
quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Luke 12: 45, 
"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can 
do; but fear Him which, after He hath killed, hath power to cast into gehenna." So 
gehenna is a calamity of the soul; it is no calamity after a man is dead to bum his 
body; the calamity is the killing of the body; but here, after the body has been 
killed, fear him who can cast the soul into gehenna. 

If we collate the texts cited we shall get these facts: That gehenna is the calamity 
that shall be visited upon the enemies of God; that it is called a fire, an everlasting 
fire, a calamity pronounced upon the soul, and that it belongs not to time, but to 
eternity, and that it is to be eternal doom — a lasting punishment. 


The word is found in several other texts — Matt25: Matt 23: 33. Every one of 
these testimonies are from the words of Jesus. No writer in the Bible except James 
used this word, outside the Lord Jesus, because evidently Jesus thought it was too 
important a doctrine to commit to others for expression. James used it once, "The 
tongue is a world of iniquity, that setteth on fire the whole course of nature, and is 
set on fire of gehenna." We can learn something about gehenna by comparing 
other texts where it appears under other names that possess the same 

characteristics. Matt. 25: 41, "Everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his 
angels." Matt. 18:8, this calamity is called everlasting fire. When the Lord said, 
"Depart fi'om me, ye cursed, unto everlasting fire," He means gehenna fire, and 
when in the 46th verse of the same chapter. He said, "These all shall go into 
everlasting punishment," He means exactly the same thing as He says in verse 41. 
In other words, everlasting fire and gehenna fire and everlasting punishment are 
the same thing. 

Revelation 20: 12. This wonderful chapter, that people toy with and juggle with 
and conjure with, which is neither literal nor figurative, that nobody is sure of, but 
of which we get so much nonsense. I am going to quote from that chapter, 
because I know what I am talking about when I quote it. (Applause.) "I saw the 
dead small and great stand before God." Are the dead going to be there? They are. 
It is in harmony with the statement, "When the Son of Man shall come in His 
glory, before Him shall be gathered all nations." I do not preach anything out of 
the 20th chapter of Revelation that cannot be proven by the analogy of faith. "The 
books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and 
the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their 
works." My brother has spent a little part of every speech he has made here in 
trying to show that the judgment is a probation, and a trial, and a millennium. 
Now, it is not all that. I say to you that the judgment is not a trial. I say that the 
judgment is not a test; but it is pronouncing the verdict of the court according to 
the books, and the books written according to the deeds done in the body, and not 
the deeds done in the intennediate state. (Applause.) "We shall all stand before 
the judgment seat of Christ, that every man may give an account of his works to 


I do not think my brother is the only one in the muddle over this matter; the 
whole Christian world is muddled. Put this sentence down in your minds: It is one 
thing to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and it is another thing to receive 
retribution or judgment at the judgment throne of Christ for the deeds done in the 
body. (Applause.) If you write that sentence in your heart no man will ever fool 
you again. That is what the judgment is for. It is to tell us who is to be saved! 
(Applause.) It is to determine what rewards men shall have, not to determine who 
is to receive opportunity for salvation. If you are going to be saved, you had better 
get saved now, and if you have not got it when the judgment throne is set, you 
will be on the left side in the decision. 

"The sea gave up her dead, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in 
them and they were judged, every man according to his works, and every man 
whose name was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, which 
is the second death." In this sublime and awful passage we learn that the lake of 
fire is identical with the everlasting fire and punishment of Matt. 25, gehenna fire, 
everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, the lake of fire and the second death are 
all exactly identical. They all mean the same thing, and I defy any man by any 
interpretation to show that those words do not all mean the same thing. (General 
applause.) Further, the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, into 

which the finally wicked will be cost, is also identified with the lake of fire and 
brimstone, "where the beast and the false prophet are." That this calamity is 
eternal is found in the fact that they "shall be tormented day and night forever and 
ever. " 

The clearest, fullest and most unequivocal statement of the doctrine of the future 
anywhere in the 


Bible is in the words of Jesus Himself Other and corroborative texts may be 
found from one end of the Bible to the other; for instance, "The wicked shall be 
turned into hades, sheol, and all the nations that forget God." "It is a fearful thing 
to fall into the hands of the living God," and others of like import. But it seems 
our Lord was not willing to have this tremendous doctrine in doubt, and Himself 
gives us the best exposition. Whatever quarrel anyone has on the subject must be 
had with the Lord Himself 


There are popular objections that have been made — popularwith the masses. One 
says the revised version has eliminated hell out of the Bible. As a matter of fact, 
the revised version has not turned it a hair's breadth; they have made it stronger 
and more forceful, if possible, because they have translated the word gehenna and 
made an English word of it and put it in its right place. The word "hell" in popular 
meaning is the eternal calamity of the lost souls, and almost everybody attaches 
that meaning to it, and, that being the case, it exactly fits the word gehenna; the 
word hell was a perfect and complete equivalent for the word gehenna. 

Others say, and I expect my brother to ring the changes upon it, that this is all 
figurative description. Figures are never used in weakness. I do not know whether 
this is all figurative or not, but, even admitting that it is, the reality transcends the 
figure, for the figure is but the poor scaffolding to help us climb up to some 
conception of the mind of God. Grant they are figures, and the meaning of it is 
that our ideas of heaven are figurative. Are you going to wipe out heaven that you 
might have no hell? If the descriptions of hell are figurative, all the descriptions of 
heaven are figurative, too. Do you want to give up heaven and throw it all 
overboard for the sake of modifying or obscuring the doctrine of hell? I don't. I 
feel like the old Universalist preacher, who was always talking about salvation for 
everybody. He was a chaplain in the civil war, and when he went down there and 
saw those rebels he said, "if there isn't a hell, there ought to be one for military 
necessities." When you rob hell of its terrors by saying it is figurative, you rob 
heaven of its glories by the same argument. (Applause.) 

Let us see if it is figurative. The parable of the wheat and tares was a figurative 
expression; but the Lord explained it by showing that wheat were children of the 
kingdom, tares the children of the wicked one. Then he adds: "As therefore the 
tares are gathered up and burned with fire (there is your figure) so shall it be in 
the end of the world; the Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall 

gather out of His kingdom all things that cause stumbling and them that do 
iniquity, and shall cast them into everlasting fire." Is that figurative? He uses and 
treats it as though He was stating literal facts. 


"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life 
eternal." Kolasin aionios (everlasting punishment) and zoa aionios (everlasting 
life) are the words used here. The same word is used for eternal in both cases. If 
one is lasting the other is; if one comes to an end, the other does. So far as quality 
and quantity is concerned, one is as great as the other. My brother, however, will 
tell me that aion means an age or short period. I admit that it is used that way. I 
think we are now living in the aion of the world which began with the human 
history, and that it is the last age; our brother will tell us that there are several 
aions, ages of the ages, and I won't quarrel with him, but they refer to the ages of 
eternity, not this world. He will tell you that aionios does not mean an endless 
condition, but let me tell you that these two words, aion, the noun, and aionios, 
the adjective, are the only words in the Greek language which express eternity. If 
you wanted to say that a thing is eternal you would use those words; in the 
Hebrew it is olam, and in the Greek aion, but those words do not always express 
eternity. You have to remember the associations of the text. 

Some will tell you that annihilation of the soul is the punishment, and will say 
that all the words describing the loss of the soul are punishment, or destroy or 
bum up, and so on. They quote the passage, "The wicked shall be ashes under 
your feet," from Malachi, and say of course that means annihilation. But hold on! 
They don't read the next verse which says: "Ye shall grow up as calves of the 
stall!" There you are! You are calves and the wicked are ashes! I don't know a 
word in the Bible that means annihilation. God probably could annihilate, but we 
cannot do it, not even to a grain of sand, much less a human soul. And that 
doctrine is built upon another error, that the soul is not naturally immortal. Our 
brother has been fighting for that all through. I affirm it is immortal, God made 
the human soul immortal in the sense that He made it a living soul. I defy 
anybody to point out the error. God made man in the likeness and image of 
himself in his intellect, sensibilities and will, not in his nature; a living soul, in 
which there was no self-limiting device which would at some future period work 
its overthrow. It is not in the soul, but it is in the body immortal unless He 
introduced some device to stave off death. But it is not natural for the soul ever to 
die, and if the soul ever does die it will be an act of God. (General applause, in 
which Pastor Russell joined.) I do not believe God ever 


made soul or angel He could not kill. (General applause.) The only question is 
whether you or I know about it, and I say He has not informed us of it. 


Another class has the restoration idea, that the soul will be restored because it is a 
child of God. The wicked is not a child of God; there is a trememdous difference. 
If a man gets to be a child of God he will have to be born of the Holy Ghost, and 
there is some little hope that such a one will come back again to divine favor after 
he has backslidden, as the prodigal son did, but the man who has no recollection 
of God, who is a sinner, and who has not received the Holy Ghost, and who does 
not want to know God, who never was at home with God and has traveled from 
him ever since he was born, who curses God till the air is blue in Allegheny — 
the fairest city in the world — there is no restoration for them. 

If you build up any thought of annihilation on the idea that human souls are 
children of God you will be left in the darkest hour of eternity. It is not true. The 
whole idea proceeds upon the one idea that God can do something in eternity that 
He cannot do here; that salvation means are going to be multiplied and intensified 
in the future. That is a piece of sheer nonsense. It was right here in this world 
where Christ died; it was here where the kingdom was inaugurated, when 
Pentecost came and men were commissioned to go everywhere and proclaim the 
unsearchable riches of Christ. If there is any world in God's universe where these 
means for salvation can be made more intense, I do not know where it is, and it is 
not in the Bible. (Applause) My brother is going to have them saved where there 
is no probation at all; where Satan is bound; evil restrained; balmy breezes; 
millennial comforts; case-hardened sinners growing up into prodigies of moral 
fiber — as much as an angle worm! (Applause). That is not probation at all. I 
have had to work out my salvation with fear and trembling for 40 years, and 
expect to keep at it till I get through, and when I get through I will not think I 
have been to a kindergarten! (Applause) But I will think I have been on probation, 
and if God has to save me on those terais I am going to respectfully request that 
He will put those other fellows through the same milli (Applause) 


Some make much of the love of God. Let my right hand forget her cunning, and 
my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I ever speak lightly of the love of 
God, the only hope of a lost world; but there are some things God cannot do. 
Jesus loved the young rich man who wished to know the way of life, but when he 
gave him the final test and the suggestion, was rejected, God could not save him 
without his own inclination. To the Jews who had rejected Him, He uttered those 
solemn and awful words, 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and 
those that are sent unto thee: how often would I have gathered you as a hen 
gathereth her chickens, and ye would not: behold, your house is left unto you 
desolate." He stood before the doors of their hearts, weeping because he could not 
save them, and you had better face those tremendous facts, rather than go into 
eternity with the hope that God is going to accomplish there what he cannot 
accomplish here. 

They say modern preaching has changed; that present-day preachers don't talk 
about hell. I wonder how many people in the North Avenue church would say 
that? I tell you hell is a serious matter. There is one preacher who hasn't gotten 
over preaching it, and I am not responsible for the rest of them. If they have lost 
faith in this thing, or have lost their courage to proclaim it, it is their fault. 

Fifty-three years ago I stood by the ashes of my mother in a one-roomed log 
cabin in Wisconsin. They enclosed her in a rough coffin, took her in a wagon five 
miles away to the little graveyard, and put her into a cave without flowers, or a 
song or a benediction. We looked into that mysterious place called the grave till 
every last particle of gravel upon the coffin lid had fallen, and then left in that 
place our dearest earthly friend. Times have changed. Coffins are caskets, flowers 
make the home like a garden, sweet music and sympathetic words make the trial 
easier, and at last, the cemetery, itself like a palaced city of the dead, receives the 
casket which we lower into a bank of flowers, and 

sing a sweet song and go away. The funeral of today is not the funeral of years 
ago. Times have changed; but death is the same! (Applause.) 


Pastor Russell then took up the negative side of the proposition. He said: 
We are pleased to say, dear friends, that there is a great deal that Dr. Eaton has 
just stated to you that we fully agree with, but there are certain portions of his 
discourse with which we could not agree. We cannot agree that the scriptures 
teach that the wages of sin is an eternity of torture. We do not fmd it so written in 
the word, nor do we fmd that such application would be in harmony with the 
character of our heavenly Father. By way of giving a thought as to where we 
believe this great doctrine of eternal torment came 


from, which has so entrenched itself in the minds of the people, that good people 
like our dear brother, well intentioned people, must confess that it is very much 
against their own desires that they must preach very much differently from what 
they would like to do themselves, very much different from what they would like 
to think of the Almighty — we state that during the dark ages, at the same time 
that purgatory came forth, this doctrine of torment was evolved — the same place 
all the errors came from. And when I say the same place, I mean, dear friends, 
that it came from Satan himself Where did the heathen get their ideas of torture 
and inferno? Not from the scriptures; they got them from the great adversary, of 
whom the apostle says:" The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them 
that believe not lest the glorious light of the goodness of God should shine into 
their hearts." (Applause.) The goodness of God is hidden from the sight of the 
heathen by these false views, which they have received, and likewise in 
proportion as Christian people receive this doctrine their minds become darkened. 

It is to the advantage of our twentieth century that we have lost some of our love 
for eternal torment. The time they loved the doctrine most was when they used to 
emulate what they thought was the character and disposition of the Almighty 

Father, and they would burn one another at the stake, and give them a foretaste of 
what they thought the Father would give them later, only that would be kept up 
through all eternity. The doctrine has been the most damnable doctrine throughout 
the entire history of the church. I charge it with the greatest crimes of history. 
What do these lynchings of the present day signify? Simply a repetition of what is 
believed to be the character of God and his vindictiveness against evil-doers. 


The scriptures are in full harmony with what you and I and every other sane, 
reasonable person in the world shall concede to be the reasonable and proper 
character of our God. (Applause.) What is declared of our heavenly Father? That 
He is just, that He is wise, that He is loving, that He is powerful. All Christian 
people will acknowledge these attributes of the divine character. If this is so, can 
we find any sense of the word in which we could conceive of God as just and yet 
punishing a creature of His own hand to all eternity, no matter what the sin was? I 
am not an apologist for sin; I do not live in sin myself, and I never preach sin. We 
at the Bible House chapel preach holiness to the Lord. (Applause.) But I tell you 
that all these people around here that our brother says are making the air blue with 
their blasphemies of God and the holy name of Jesus Christ are all people who 
have been taught this doctrine of eternal torment. (Applause.) And all the 
murderers, thieves and evil doers in the penitentiaries, were all taught this 
doctrine. ( Continued applause.) And another thing; you won't find one of the 
Bible House company in that order by any means. (Prolonged applause.) These 
are bad doctrines; they have been injuring the world this long time; they are not a 
part of the Lord's teaching at all, and our dear brother has not gotten the smoke of 
the dark ages robbed out of his eyes yet. (Applause.) 

If we take up the subject of God's justice for a moment, could you possibly make 
yourself believe that it would be a just thing for our heavenly Father to create a 
world of humans and foreknow the end, and prepare a great and awful place 
where 99 out of every 100 of them were to go, and to prepare a corps of fireproof 
devils, and then to set forth the evil infiuences we see all about us, and to say: "If 
you don't get away from these, down you go, and I intend you shall have it!" 
There is no justice in that! It is totally foreign to justice. Where would be the 
justice of tormenting a man to all eternity for 20, 50 or 100 years of life in Eden? 
Where would be the wisdom of God in allowing a plan of that kind? Our brother 
has his own ideas of this matter. He tells us in one breath that it is only those who 
were begotten of the spirit that are to be saved, and again he tells us in another 
that it is all the heathen, who never heard about Christ at all, who are to be saved. 
(Applause) His good heart tries to embrace the world and see God's character 
vindicated by the outcome, and he is in confiict with himself 


If only the ones who are going to escape hell are those who are begotten of the 
Holy Spirit, most of your families and friends are going to eternal torment. It is a 
serious matter to think of, and for God to think of, that hundreds and thousands of 

millions He has created have no better opportunity, but are without opportunity 
for knowing that truth, without which they cannot be begotten of the Holy Spirit, 
and brought into the blessings of God's favor, now open to those who will receive 
it. Where would God's love be in this plan? Our brother would tell us that God's 
love was manifested in providing a way of escape. Then notice, that according to 
this theory, because Adam sinned, damnation was pronounced upon him and he 
was sent to eternal torment, and all his children with him sent to the same place; 
and there would be no hope of escape except that we have Jesus as the Redeemer. 
I freely concede, indeed, I claim, that none are escaped from the penalty except 
those who accept Jesus; but I claim that what they escape from is 


that which Jesus suffered for them — death! (Applause.) 

I claim further, that God's gracious plan is that after He shall have gathered out 
the church to be joint heirs with Christ in His kingdom. He is to give to His little 
flock the administration of that millennial kingdom, that all the families of the 
earth may be blessed with the knowledge of the Lord, and the opportunities they 
will have then will be much better than now — andl am glad they will have them 
much better than I am having it! ' (Applause.) I never begrudge any man all the 
blessings and advantages he can get, and I will be glad to see the world get all the 
exceeding riches of God's grace in the ages to come as the apostle suggests in his 
letter to the Ephesians." In the ages to come (not in the present age), God will 
show His exceeding riches of grace by Christ Jesus." But the riches of grace 
shown to us who are in Christ Jesus now, and the blessing to us of the church, are 
incomparably greater than are coming to the world, as we saw the other evening. 
The blessing to the church is partaking of the divine nature — notmerely to get 
life as human beings, but as the blessing God proposes to offer to the world is life, 
a restitution as expressed by Peter in Acts 3, a higher blessing, namely life on a 
spiritual plane, will be for the kingdom class. 


I hold that all punishment from the Divine standpoint must be corrective, just as 
the best and noblest sentiments of mankind must have determined that all earthly 
punishment shall be corrective, never vindictive. I am pleased, indeed, to see that 
in all the penal institutions of the United States gradually this sentiment of 
corrective punishment is being introduced, and all thought of vengeance against 
the individual is being removed. It is a sign of progress; and I declare that they are 
not progressing beyond the heavenly Father — thathe has in his plan the same 
principle: that all punishment is intended to be corrective, to assist the individual. 

Notice, that according to the scriptures, the penalty for original sin was death. 
The account given in Genesis, where if in any place, there ought to be a succinct 
statement of what the penalty would be, in the account of man's disobedience and 
the Divine statement of the penalty, we find it to be, "The wages of sin is death." 
And death doesn't mean eternal torment. Death is the opposite of life. Life is one 
thing, death is the antithesis. So, when God told Adam that he might live by 

obedience, it meant what it said; it did not mean, you have life anyhow, for 
suffering or pleasure. Proceeding, we see that our Lord Jesus paid the penalty for 
sin, and the penalty he paid was what? Did he go to eternal torment? Did he go to 
gehenna? No. We all know to the contrary. He paid the penalty the Lord let fall on 
Him. He paid what we would have had to pay but for His sacrifice — we would 
never have escaped eternal death, if it was not for what Christ did. And what did 
He do? "Christ dies for our sins, according to the scriptures!" (Applause.) Death 
was the penalty, the wages, and this wage our Redeemer paid, and it was because 
He paid it that we have hope toward God that we shall not be confined in death, 
hope that all the prisoners in the pit shall come forth in the hope of a 

In all harmony with this, we find the apostle, speaking of those who have come to 
the knowledge of the truth, Heb. 6: 4-6; 10: 18-30, described the penalty that shall 
come upon those who have sinned wilfully after coming to the knowledge of the 
truth — "a certain fearful looking for judgment which shall devour the 
adversaries" — notreserving and torturing, but devouting the adversaries of God. 
Our brother quoted: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." 


The apostle was not speaking about the world, but the church, in this same 
connection. If members of the church, who have come into Christ, shall take 
themselves out of the hands of Christ, whom God sent as the mediator, and we 
fall into the hands of God's justice, nothing remains of Divine favor, but only the 
wages of sin — death. There is nothing to be hoped for out of Christ. 

The message of salvation, the good tidings, that Christ died, is for whom? Every 
man. Have all heard the message? No. Have all a hearing ear now? No. It is a 
special blessing to those who hear the message in the present time, as the Lord 
said: "Blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear." Let us 
rejoice that God's providence permitted our eyes of understanding to be opened in 
permitting our getting some sight of God's goodness and plan. Let us not forget, 
however, that there are a great many not so favored, and that the time is coming 
when all the blind eyes shall be opened, and all the deaf ears shall be unstopped, 
according to Isaiah 35. 

The proposition is, choose, believe, live. "Choose life that ye may live." Some 
one says, "But you cannot help living anjrway; you are so constituted that you 
cannot die." God's Word days, "I have set before you life and death, choose life 
that ye may live." Those whose eyes are opened may have the rejoicing that they 
have chosen life, and in the present time the Lord himself declares that it is a 
narrow way we walk in, 


"and few there be that find it." We are in full harmony with the Lord in this 
matter; not many are finding the way of life, not many know about the way of life, 
nor the only name given under heaven or amongst men whereby we must be 

saved, because God's due time is not come to bless the world with this full 
knowledge. Look at the dark ages. Where was the knowledge of the kingdom at 
that time? Where was the power of the kingdom exercised then? No one can 
speak. The truth was fallen in the streets, and gross darkness covered the people 
for over a thousand years. Was Christ's reign established in that gross darkness? 

Our brother suggested that the establishment of the kingdom was at Pentecost, 
because our Lord and John and the disciples proclaimed the message, "The 
kingdom of heaven is at hand." Let us look at that. God had promised the 
kingdom through Abraham to Israel, if they were faithful. They were to become 
God's favored nation to bless the world as the seed of Abraham. And so the 
apostle, speaking of His message, says "It was necessary that the gospel should 
first have been preached unto you." It must be offered to Jews before it could be 
offered to the Gentiles. 


Our Lord said to the disciples, "Ye shall not be gone over the cities of Israel 
before the Son of Man be come." When did He come in that sense? Five days 
before the crucifixion, when approaching the city. He wept over it, and stated 
those words which our brother has already quoted, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou 
that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how oft would I 
have gathered thee as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would 
not. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." There He came as king; there 
He offered Himself as king. They did not receive Him, and Jesus pronounced 
these words of desolation upon them, but was it an everlasting desolation? Note 
further, "Henceforth ye shall see me no more until that day." (Great applause.) 
What day? The great millennial day, the day in which "ye shall say blessed is he 
that Cometh in the name of the Lord." Meantime the kingdom has been taken from 
them, and the people rejected from divine favor while God is selecting from the 
nations in general the class which shall eventually constitute the true kingdom, 
which shall rule to bless the world. 

In the text which our brother quoted the other night (Acts 15: 14, 15) James tells 
how the Lord is taking out this people for His name, and then goes on to quote the 
prophet Amos on the subject. Our brother doesn't think the prophets knew 
anything, or that the apostles knew very much, when they thought the stars were 
pinholes in the sky, but I think it was much better to have it said, as it was of Peter 
and John, "They took knowledge of them that had been with Jesus and learned of 
Him," than to know all there is to know about astronomy. (Applause.) What we 
want is the words of the Lord, and what we care for is not whether Peter was 
learned or unlearned, but if God was with him and God used him, and declared 
He would speak through him; then we will look for our instruction from him. 
James went on to say, "After this I will turn again and will rebuild the tabernacle 
of David, which is fallen down, and will build up the ruins thereof, that the 
residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom my 
name is called." 


I would like to have you notice concerning our brother's argument that we agree 
that hades never means eternal torment; that there is not a word about torment 
concerning hades except the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and I must help 
him on that. (Applause.) The rich man was clothed in purple and fine linen, and 
fared sumptuously every day. That doesn't mean that every rich man is in danger 
of something horrible. These are figures or parts of a parable. Purple represents 
royalty — it always has. Was there any nation in a royal condition, a kingly 
condition, in favor with God, at the time our Lord spoke? Yes, the Jewish nation 
held that position. Their kingdom was the Lord's kingdom, as the Scriptures said, 
for instance, of Solomon, "Solomon sat in the throne of the kingdom of the Lord, 
in the room of David his father." Was there anything to represent their white 
linen? Yes, they had the justification, purity, of the sacrifices of the law — 
notactual justification, but a typical cleansing. What was the sumptuous feast? It 
was the rich promises and blessing which God had given them, of which the 
apostle wrote, "What advantage hath a Jew? Much advantage every way, chiefiy 
because to them were committed the oracles of God." And what does Lazarus 
represent? That class who were aliens and strangers from God's favor, the poor of 
this world, not highly esteemed — the Gentiles. 

There came a change in the Jewish nation; it passed away as a nation, although it 
has remained as a people; and Lazarus' condition was changed. The Gentiles came 
into God's favor, and became participants of the blessings promised to the seed of 
Abraham. Abraham's bosom represented that the Gentiles had been admitted to 
the privileges of the children of Abraham, spiritual Israelites, joint heirs with 
Christ in His kingdom. 

The end of the rich man's course is not mentioned in the parable, but in Rom. 11, 
we have the Apostle Paul 


very fully describing the casting off of Israel, in order to permit the election of the 
Gentiles who should complete the church of Christ, and after this has been 
accomplished a return of great favor to the Jewish nation-a release of the rich man 
from his condition of torment, and his admission into the blessings which God has 
promised, humbled and helped by the severe experiences of the past nineteen 

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (the church's sake), 
but as touching the election (the original promises of earthly favor to Israel) they 
are beloved for the father's sake. As in times past ye have obtained mercy through 
their unbelief, through your mercy they may obtain mercy." When shall the 
church exercise mercy toward Israel? In the future time of glory, when all power 
shall be in the hands of the glorified church to accomplish all of God's will. 

We agree that gehenna is a place of fire, but the apostles agree, and the prophets, 
and Jesus, that the Lord's utterances were parabolic. "Without a parable spake He 

not unto them." "He opened His mouth in parables and dark sayings, that seeing 
they might see and not perceive, and hearing they might hear and not understand." 


The disciples did not understand, and Jesus told them they would not understand 
"Until the holy spirit should come upon them, and they should be endued with 
power" later. We agree that gehenna means a place of fire, and that the original 
Tophet, outside Jerusalem, was a representation of gehenna. The literal gehenna 
outside Jerusalem was a type of the symbolic gehenna outside the New Jerusalem. 
As the literal valley was a place for disintegration of dead carcasses, so in the 
symbolical condition, all the evildoers should be cast into gehenna, dead — to 
forever experience the penalty pronounced for wilful sin — because nothing that 
defileth or maketh a lie shall enter into the new government, the New Jerusalem, 
to be established when the millennial kingdom shall begin to exercise its control. 

Our brother quoted from Revelation the very interpretation of the lake of fire 
which we should have given — Revelation 20, says, "The lake of fire, which is 
the second death!" (Great Applause.) The second death is just like the first death 
would have been, an everlasting death, had not our Redeemer purchased an 
opportunity for resurrection. The second death has no end, there is no hope that 
those who go into it shall ever return; it means utter destruction. Christ dieth no 
more. He will never redeem the world again, but as the result of His own 
redemption every member of the human family purchased by His precious blood 
must have a full opportunity to escape the hadean penalty upon the human race, 
must have the opportunity of gaining eternal life. Those who have eyes to see and 
ears to hear, should have the hearts to know that in the present time they may 
have part in the select little flock who, by patient continuance in well-doing, may 
attain to the opportunity of administering the wonderful blessings which God has 
in reservation for the world of mankind. 


Our brother stated that if you take away hell you take away heaven — the 
eternity of the one is implied in the eternity of the other. We are fully agreed that 
the penalty which God will pronounce upon the wicked will last forever! 
(Applause.) There is no question about the eternal continuance Of it. The question 
is, "What will the penalty consist of?" Our answer is most emphatically, the 
penalty for wilful sin will be the second death, from which there is no 
resurrection, from which there is no recovery. 

Our brother quotes a text from this 20th chapter of Revelation, which he told us 
the other night he didn't understand — a quotation which I certainly hope and you 
certainly hope you never will see fulfilled, if it is to be taken literally that the 
beast and the false prophet shall be tormented before — " the throne of the Lamb 
day and night forever: " If all the wicked are to be cast in with them to a lake of 
fire, the Lord and the saints throughout all eternity would be doing nothing but 
hearing the groans of the damned. 

We have not time to go into this now, but I merely suggest: What is the beast? 
You don't know! What is the false prophet? You don't know! Well, you will have 
to get an understanding of what these two are before you can understand how they 
are going to be tormented! (Applause) They are symbols of institutions, now 
existing in the world. It is the same figure referred to early in the chapter. "That 
would not receive the mark of the beast in the forehead nor in their hands." These 
are great institutions now in existence, and we need' to be on guard that we do not 
have the mark of this beast on us! (Applause) 

The Lord speaks of the broad way that leadeth to destruction. That doesn't sound 
like eternal torment, does it? I used to think it did once, and went out of this city 
of Allegheny, when a boy, putting texts on walls and in the streets, warning 
people to turn to God, and escape the awful future I thought was before them, and 
wondered why God didn't do more to save the people, and tell them of their 
terrible condition. I have found out since that God was more wise and 


loving than I, that, as the prophet declares, "His ways are higher than our ways; 
and His plans higher than our plans — as the heavens are higher than the earth." 


Our brother didn't quote anything from the apostles, and I'll tell you why. There 
wasn't anything to quote! (Laughter.) The Lord spoke in parables and dark 
sayings, but the apostles did not do so; the apostles were writing to the church, 
and they wrote plainly. Paul says, "They shall be punished with everlasting 
destruction" — thedestruction shall be forever. "Whose end is destruction." (Phil. 
3: 19) "Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction." (Rom. 9: 22) "Which drown men 
in perdition and destruction." (1 Tim. 6: 9) Nothing about eternal torment in any 
thing the apostle states and yet he said, "I have not shunned to declare unto you 
the whole counsel of God." 

What He had to tell was sufficient that the man of God might be perfect, 
thoroughly furnished unto every good work. (Applause) Paul was not the only 
one. Peter says, "Bringing upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Pet. 2: 1)" Some 
wrest the scriptures to their own destruction." We are wresting the scriptures to 
our own injury if we take words and make anything mean black when it-is white, 
make life mean death, and death mean life, and destruction mean torment, and 
make perish mean torment. "God so loved the world 'that he gave His only 
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish" — does perish 
mean torment? It takes several years at a theological seminary to know how to do 
that. (Applause) 

Our brother has made a point concerning the kingdom, that it must have begun at 
Pentecost, because the Lord said, "There be some standing here who shall not 
taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Our brother 

should have read on. The division of the Bible into chapters is a modern 
invention, and was not contained in the original scriptures. 

The translators divided the account of these words from their proper connection, 
for the first words of the next chapter are, "And five days afterward He taketh 
Peter, James and John up into a high mountain, and was transfigured before 
them." He showed them the glories of the kingdom. How do you know? One of 
the brethren there said so! 


Peter said, "We have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made 
known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, for we were 
eyewitnesses to his majesty, when he received from the Father honor and glory 
when there came such a voice from the excellent glory. This is my beloved Son; 
and this voice we heard when we were with him in the holy mount." He is talking 
about the matter of the glory and the kingdom. And he goes on, "We have a more 
sure word of prophecy, where unto we do well that we take heed, as unto a light 
that shineth in the dark place, until the day dawn." 

Has the day dawned yet? No; we are still in the night time, and the Lord's people 
still need the light of the lamp, the word to guide them, until the glorification of 
the church, the bride of Christ, when, as stated in the parable of the tares, after the 
wheat was gathered into the garner, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the 
sun in the kingdom of their Father." This will be the manifestation of the sons of 
God, in glory, for which the apostle, in Rom. 8, declares the whole creation is 
groaning and waiting that they might then be delivered from the bondage of sin. 

I am sorry there are some still blinded, as were the Pharisees at the beginning, 
that they do not see the great privileges and blessings of many of God's people 
today, and see not that the light is breaking on all topics under the sun, and the 
sciences and inventions are being multiplied, so it is due time that light should 
shine out of darkness, and that the dawning of the new day should be marked by 
the increased knowledge concerning God's holy word. Not wresting the 
Scriptures, but having full confidence in them, we stand with every person who 
has similar confidence, and seek to know as fully as possible the revealed will of 

The applause following Pastor Russell's close was long-continued, and the 
speaker was obliged to arise and acknowledge the outburst. Dr. Eaton was greeted 
with enthusiastic cheers when he got up to make his 10-minute reply. He said: 


I cannot get my brother to give me an answer. I gave you a statement, 
unvarnished, scriptural, with a thousand texts to prove it.( Applause.) Why didn't 
he answer them? Why doesn't he say something? He tells ns that the beast and the 
false prophet and the devils are symbols. Every one can see that! We have to 

admit it! They were thrown into the lake of fire and tortured forever! It must be 
hard work to torture symbols. ( Applause.) 

They were persons, my brother, and they were thrown into the lake of fire; that is 
the only place where God will torture. I have not said God would torture sinners, 
as he said I did. I have talked about 


eternal punishment. I referred you to Jesus' own words, kolassin — punishment. 
You can appeal to men's notions, and get cheers from a rabble on a street corner. I 
appeal to men's reasoning powers. The question is. What are we going to take 
from the word of God? The doctrine did not come from Satan; we had it from the 
lips of Jesus Christ, and no man can examine the texts in which the word gehenna 
occurs without feeling that the calamity of a lost soul is an inconceivably great 
calamity and eternal. 

I thought our brother was going to discuss what we had before us tonight, and not 
hash up a lot of other things. I supposed I had made the millennial doctrine look 
like 30 cents the last night, and I didn't propose to discuss it again. 

Our brother said all punishment is corrective. He muddles you when he talks like 
that. A great many texts state how God is correcting, for our profit, all through the 
period of probation; but when probation ends, and when men are passed beyond 
the present life, then punishment is retributive, and not corrective. God is not 
damning men in this life. He is not punishing them here. The evil comes that he 
may prune and purify. The whole question of eternal punishment is not corrective 
or remedial, but retributive, for "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." 
(Applause.) The soul that reaches the calamity of gehenna has come to the point 
where corrective measures do not go, but punitive measures, the execution of the 
judgment of God as retributive justice upon those who refuse the privileges of 


Our brother worried about two things, and has been trying to make the best of 
them he could. He says that Christ never spoke except in parables. We know that 
is not true. He has found one text which says He always spoke in parables, but I 
do not know why the author wrote it. I cannot interpret it as truth. He did not 
always speak in parables, by any means. He went to the extent of explaining 
parables to make them literal. It was not a parable when Jesus said, "Repent." 
That was a plain statement. 

When John said "Repent," there was no figure about it, and when he put it into 
the mouths of the others, it was literal. That mission, given to the disciples, 12 and 
70, was never repeated after Pentecost, but Paul says to the church at Ephesus, 
"Amongst whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God." Our brother says 
the kingdom was not set up on that occasion. It was set up. It was inaugurated at 
Pentecost, for Jesus and Paul and John, and the 70 and the 12, not only said the 

kingdom of heaven is at hand, but they also heard Jesus say, "Ye shall not have 
gone over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come." He was already there 
in one sense. He was to come in another sense. Do not be fooled by anybody. It is 
impossible for a people who have a spoonful of brains to misunderstand. What did 
Christ mean? He meant that they would surely see the kingdom when the power 
should be manifested at Pentecost. It was not the transfiguration at all. Mark says: 
"They shall not taste death until they have seen the kingdom of God come with 
power." When Jesus said, "Ye shall be endued with power after the Holy Ghost is 
come upon you," that referred to Pentecost. (Applause.) 

My brother, it is not a fair treatment of the word of God to try to wiggle out of 
that! (Applause.) If, after I give you the simplest statements of the scriptures, and 
my brother insists that they are figures, then you have no revelation at all, from 
God's word, but a revelation from Pastor Russell! (Applause.) 

Did that kingdom of God come with power on the day of Pentecost when the 
holy spirit was poured out? If it did it is come, and it is coming by and by, and we 
are in the last time, the last period of the world's history now. Peter stood up and 
so declared when he said: "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel, 
'In the last days I will pour out my spirit. ' "God poured out His spirit at Pentecost 
and that was the last day. They will close with the harvest, which is the judgment, 
and this millennial nonsense, which is a piece of stupidity and nothing else, will 
be completely shattered and done away! 


Dr. Eaton's remarks were received with vociferous cheers by many, and he was 
obliged to acknowledge the applause by a rising salute. 

Pastor Russell, answering the reply, was accorded a most enthusiastic reception 
also. He said: 

I must be very brief, but I have some other items I should have mentioned before. 
Regarding the kingdom, we quite agree that it was begun in an embryotic sense. 
We are not at all in disagreement that Pentecost was a great day and a wonderful 
time; it was the beginning of the new dispensation; it was the beginning of the 
selection of the house of sous; it was the anointing of the sons with the holy spirit 
from on high. But it is one thing to have the kingdom begun in an embryotic 
condition, and another thing to have the kingdom in power. During all this gospel 
age the kingdom has been in progress, and the Lord is taking out the class whom 
he wants, all probationary members, who are exhorted to make their calling and 
election sure that they may be in the completed kingdom in due time. But all the 
reigning and ruling 


done in the present time isn't worth mentioning. "The kingdom of heaven 
suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force!" They took the head of the 
kingdom, and crucified Him, and they have taken the members of the body, who 

must suffer for Christ's sake before they can do any reigning. ( Applause.) In due 
time, when all the members of the kingdom shall be ready, and after the gathering 
of all the jewels who shall compose that kingdom, then the offer of blessings to 
the world, through it, shall begin at once. To use another figure, the bride will be 
with the bridegroom when the kingdom is fully established, but, as the Scriptures 
say, "The bride must make herself ready." 

I also agreed that we are in the last days. The whole period of time from Adam to 
the second coming of Christ is divided into six periods of a thousand years each — 
thousand-year days. Six are past and we are now in the beginning of the seventh. 
At the time of our Lord four of these great days had passed, and they were 
entering the fifth, so that it was proper for the apostles to say that they were in the 
last days — theywere in the latter end of this great week. 


I also agree that by an act of God all the wicked can be dealt with; that they have 
not inherent immortality, and if God says all the wicked will be destroyed, how 
else shall we view the matter? Our brother accused me of not answering him; he 
did not notice that I was agreeing with him so well. God is able to destroy both 
soul 'and body in Gehenna, and not only able, but He is going to do it — an 
everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power! 
(Applause.) I should not enjoy heaven after the manner of Jonathan Edwards, who 
told the people about their friends in their lost condition, and when asked how 
God could be praised under such conditions, said: "We will look from the 
battlements of heaven and see the earthly ones writhing in torture, and then turn 
about and praise God the louder for the manifestation of His justice! " 

Our dear brother talked about the beasts and the lake of fire. He forgets that the 
lake of fire is just as symbolical as the beasts are! (Applause.) Jesus explains this 
particular symbol and says: "The lake of fire is the second death!" (Applause.) 

Our brother thought he annihilated the doctrine of the millennium. He called 
attention to the fact that there would not be room for him to sit down, and that that 
completely demolished the millennial idea. Our dear brother demolished himself 
(laughter) when he told us that. I took his figures, and I wish you would check 
them over carefully yourselves. He tells us the population of the world altogether 
would amount to ninety-eight trillions, ninety-eight billions, three hundred 
millions. That is not so. (Applause.) Take your pencil and paper and follow the 
doctor's statement of how he got at this result. You will find that, according to his 
idea of calculating, there would be today in this world forty-eight trillions, two 
hundred and eighty-nine billions, eight hundred and twenty-four millions, one 
hundred and sixty-five thousand, six hundred and eight.( Applause.) I want to say 
that the doctor is a safer man to follow in some other things than in figures. He 
had an object in this. He wanted to make out that there wouldn't be room to sit 
down, if he were on earth in the millennium. 

I began with today. We have the best statistics today that were ever known. There 
are today sixteen hundred millions of a population, as compared with forty-eight 

trillions! (Laughter.) The doctor's figures are only forty-eight thousand two 
hundred and eighty-nine times too many. That is a pretty good joke. (Laughter 
and applause.) You remember that the other evening he told us either he or I could 
fool you, and I believe he has fooled you on this. (Laughter.) I am speaking as 
candidly as I would know how to do in the presence of God and the angels on this 
matter, dear friends. (Applause.) I find that by the most reasonable calculation I 
can possibly make there have been living in this world nineteen billions, four 
hundred and thirty-seven millions, five hundred and seventy-five 
thousand, eight hundred and twenty-two, the extreme outside number that could 
possibly be reckoned. 


But suppose you double this, it will still leave plenty of room. This calculation 
shows that, taking the acreage of the world as it is today there would be nearly 
two acres apiece for all the people who ever lived in the world. (Applause.) Plenty 
of room to sit down. You have not the millennium knocked out on that basis. And 
God is able to make that statement in Revelation literal, "There shall be no more 
sea," in order to make good his promise that all the earth shall be filled with the 
knowledge of the Lord," and that "every man shall know Him, from the least to 
the greatest. " 

In this calculation I found it necessary to work in harmony with the scriptures' 
figures, giving the count from Noah's time on; our brother reckoned that half a 
million persons would be a fair estimate before the flood; I conceded a million, to 
be generous. Beginning with Noah there were eight persons. I count that they 
multiplied four times every century in the first nine centuries, instead of twice, as 
our brother suggested. That would give us at the exodus 4,194,304 persons 


dying in one century. Four centuries later it would be 37,000,000; in Solomon's 
time, 75,000,000; in Babylon's time, 150,000,000; in Christ's time. 301,000,000; 
in Atiha's time, 693,000,000 in Chariemange's time, 1,207,000,000; in the 
Crusader's time 2,500,000,000; in the time of the Reformation, 4,800,000,000 — 
dying every four centuries. Coming to the seventeenth century, and counting each 
century's death-rate separately, there would be for the last three centuries two 
billions, three billions, and four billions eight hundred millions respectively. We 
cannot throw out the millennium on the score of lack of standing room now! 

Now dear friends, I must cease. I wish to thank you for your kind attention, and I 
am sure our brother will join in this expression, that our hope is that we have not 
come together merely to measure theological swords, but to help all see more 
clearly the word of the Lord, and to expose the truth, that the Lord may be 
glorified, and that all who are of the truth may be able to see the truth. (Prolonged 

Dr. Eaton replied to the closing expressions of Pastor Russell, assuring the 
audience of similar good desire, and his pleasure at noting the general 

manifestation of interest on the part of the people in the word of the Lord, as 
evidenced by the remarkable attendances at the meetings. He admitted that there 
was not enough doctrinal teaching and discussion concerning the Lord's word, 
and hoped that this would be stimulated by the series of debates which was just 



Had we been there beloved Lord 
When on that night you knelt 
With anguished prayer upon your lips. 
Would we your grief have felt? 
Had we been there? 

Had we been near, O precious Lord 
When traveling Calvary's road 
You fell beneath the cross you bore. 
Would we have borne the load? 
Had we been near? 

That early morn would we have gone 
And sought thy sacred tomb 
That we might thus annoint thee there 
With spice and sweet perfume? 
That early morn? 

What joy is ours, for thou art raised 
And nevermore shalt die. 
Thy blood was shed that we might live. 
Thy name we glorify! 

What joy is ours! 

We'll follow on, the call is clear 
For all to consecrate. 
A life anew in us begun. 
All else do we forsake. 
We'll follow on! 

Then raised with him when life is o'er, 

A crown for every cross. 
What resurrection joy we'll know! 
What gain for every loss! 

When raised with Him! 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Views 1.6k
  • Replies 0
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.