Jump to content
The World News Media

Language often makes implicit arguments which are contradictory


xero
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Member

For example we've been recently admonished via scripture to "not hurry ourselves to become offended" and in the same admonishment hear the words "someone hurt our feelings".

Do you see how the former suggests the locus of control is internal, that becoming offended is an act of the will on our part, whereas the latter is an external locus of control and lacking in free will, but rather a reaction to an external act?

 

The latter, in my view is more along the lines of "I didn't like what you said" vs "you hurt my feelings" as if ones "feelings" was some naked worm crawling along the sidewalk defenseless against being stepped on.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Views 173
  • Replies 11
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

What a weird congregation you have. It’s like when the Regional brother and his wife hit town and it isn’t yet clear just what congregation they will be attending. “Are we in that stage of tryin

For example we've been recently admonished via scripture to "not hurry ourselves to become offended" and in the same admonishment hear the words "someone hurt our feelings". Do you see how the fo

The same thing is involved when I hear people say "I encouraged that brother". I always say, no you didn't. If you'll look and see he still appears to be discouraged. What you should have said is "I a

  • Member

The same thing is involved when I hear people say "I encouraged that brother". I always say, no you didn't. If you'll look and see he still appears to be discouraged. What you should have said is "I attempted to encourage that brother, but I failed." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
20 hours ago, xero said:

The same thing is involved when I hear people say "I encouraged that brother". I always say, no you didn't. If you'll look and see he still appears to be discouraged. What you should have said is "I attempted to encourage that brother, but I failed." 

What about those verses that say God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and God struck Nabal dead, and in both cases we bend over backwards to say he didn’t, that he allowed the lout’s own stubbornness to kill him? Sometimes I think the Bible writer meant it exactly as he wrote, in the vein of ‘the light gets brighter as the day dawns.’

Sometimes in Twitter you will read of a given tweet removed with the note that this user limits who can read his tweets (though other tweets of his will be visible). I know of no such setting to do that. That’s why I’m inclined to believe the explanation I read that they ‘limit’ their tweets by going against something Twitter doesnt want them to say and so has removed it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
34 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What about those verses that say God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and God struck Nabal dead, and in both cases we bend over backwards to say he didn’t, that he allowed the lout’s own stubbornness to kill him? Sometimes I think the Bible writer meant it exactly as he wrote, in the vein of ‘the light gets brighter as the day dawns.’

Sometimes in Twitter you will read of a given tweet removed with the note that this user limits who can read his tweets (though other tweets of his will be visible). I know of no such setting to do that. That’s why I’m inclined to believe the explanation I read that they ‘limit’ their tweets by going against something Twitter doesnt want them to say and so has removed it.

I suspect that the interpretation of the locus of the action leading to the hardening of pharaoh's heart is interpreted variously due to social values and ideas current at any given time. Both can be true with qualification. Jehovah has created this universe and all the natural cause-effect relations which allow for a measure of free will so one could say he caused the heart-hardening, on the other hand we could also say he allowed it insofar as he allows us to have free will.

Of course we could ask how we pretend to know our will is free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Kant was stopped dead in his tracks on this dilemma when his church told him he kant ask that question.  (sorry)

Kant was a pedant, who was wrong about his categorical imperative. He knew nothing about the scalability of actions or even the capability of any given actor performing a given action. I think of him as a pigeon walking in circles imagining he'd circumnavigated the globe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Kant was stopped dead in his tracks on this dilemma when his church told him he kant ask that question.  (sorry)

Along these lines I decided to harass this one brother (who's really annoyed me, so fair play) ... he's an IRS Lawyer/CPA... anyway I asked him:

"Dan...Could Jehovah have created Adam and Even with faux free will such that these imagined they were free to perform a forbidden or evil action, but lacked the capacity to actually act on the imagined act?"

Dan says "Sure, Jehovah could have done that."

I continue..."So then, if he had done that, would Adam or Eve have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad?"

Dan responds "Well, no, of course."

I ask..."So what do you suppose Adam and Eve have thought when presented with Satan's challenge"

Dan says "I suppose they might have considered the situation, well at least Eve might, since it says she was deceived, but she wouldn't have eaten, because of not having free will. She'd have been wired to continue doing good, even though she had the capacity to consider doing the wrong thing."

Then I say "In all this, though she would have felt free, though wouldn't she...both she and Adam?"

Dan responds "In this thought experiment, the answer would be 'Yes'."

Then I ask "So then, the fall of man, death and sin would never have taken place?"

Dan says "Correct."

And I continue "...and Adam and Eve would imagine in all this that they were still free moral agents."

Dan says "That's what faux free will looks like."

And I continue "So we'd all be in a paradise earth now, then wouldn't we, and none the wiser for lacking free will..."

Dan says "Sure...."

And I say "So why didn't Jehovah do it that way? We'd all be happy and be congratulating ourselves on how we we are so wise that we always obey Jehovah..."

Dan says "Well Jehovah would know..."

And I blurt out "So it's all about him is it?"

Dan says "What about the angels? They'd know we didn't have free will?"

I say "Would they? If Jehovah could make humans with faux free will, then couldn't he likewise do so with any sentient being giving some actual free will and some faux and not allowing the knowledge of who here or there actually possesses the same?"

Dan says "What about love? They couldn't actually love each other or Jehovah."

I say "With faux free will you could imagine you were doing so..."

Then I say "Don't worry Dan. I'm sure we have free will. Maybe."

:) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

More on language. In Genesis, during the antediluvian times we see the blessed lineage, the line of Seth accomplishing nothing of note, whereas the lineage from Cain is engaging in all manner of building, engineering, music, etc. That implies something as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
On 5/5/2022 at 11:38 AM, xero said:

Along these lines I decided to harass this one brother (who's really annoyed me, so fair play) ... he's an IRS Lawyer/CPA... anyway I asked him:

"Dan...Could Jehovah have created Adam and Even with faux free will such that these imagined they were free to perform a forbidden or evil action, but lacked the capacity to actually act on the imagined act?"

Dan says "Sure, Jehovah could have done that."

I continue..."So then, if he had done that, would Adam or Eve have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad?"

Dan responds "Well, no, of course."

I ask..."So what do you suppose Adam and Eve have thought when presented with Satan's challenge"

Dan says "I suppose they might have considered the situation, well at least Eve might, since it says she was deceived, but she wouldn't have eaten, because of not having free will. She'd have been wired to continue doing good, even though she had the capacity to consider doing the wrong thing."

Then I say "In all this, though she would have felt free, though wouldn't she...both she and Adam?"

Dan responds "In this thought experiment, the answer would be 'Yes'."

Then I ask "So then, the fall of man, death and sin would never have taken place?"

Dan says "Correct."

And I continue "...and Adam and Eve would imagine in all this that they were still free moral agents."

Dan says "That's what faux free will looks like."

And I continue "So we'd all be in a paradise earth now, then wouldn't we, and none the wiser for lacking free will..."

Dan says "Sure...."

And I say "So why didn't Jehovah do it that way? We'd all be happy and be congratulating ourselves on how we we are so wise that we always obey Jehovah..."

Dan says "Well Jehovah would know..."

And I blurt out "So it's all about him is it?"

Dan says "What about the angels? They'd know we didn't have free will?"

I say "Would they? If Jehovah could make humans with faux free will, then couldn't he likewise do so with any sentient being giving some actual free will and some faux and not allowing the knowledge of who here or there actually possesses the same?"

Dan says "What about love? They couldn't actually love each other or Jehovah."

I say "With faux free will you could imagine you were doing so..."

Then I say "Don't worry Dan. I'm sure we have free will. Maybe."

:) 

What a weird congregation you have. :)

It’s like when the Regional brother and his wife hit town and it isn’t yet clear just what congregation they will be attending. “Are we in that stage of trying to haul in the big fish?” I ask them, making gestures of reeling in the big one. They reply yes. “Well,” I tell them, “just between us, I’m not sure they even believe in God at those other congregations.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
On 5/5/2022 at 8:49 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Kant was stopped dead in his tracks on this dilemma when his church told him he kant ask that question.  (sorry)

 

On 5/5/2022 at 9:52 AM, xero said:

Kant was a pedant, who was wrong about his categorical imperative. He knew nothing about the scalability of actions or even the capability of any given actor performing a given action.

Few realize that the Beatles later built upon his platform of philosophy:

”because I told you before…oh…you kant do that.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What a weird congregation you have. :)

It’s like when the Regional brother and his wife hit town and it isn’t yet clear just what congregation they will be attending. “Are we in that stage of trying to haul in the big fish?” I ask them, making gestures of reeling in the big one. They reply yes. “Well,” I tell them, “just between us, I’m not sure they even believe in God at those other congregations.”

It's just Dan. His parents were missionaries and he used to be a pioneer, then he got DF'ed and reinstated. I don't know what it was for, but he's really sharp. I remember when I got him the DVD "Legally Blonde" for a graduation gift from law school (he'd previously refused to see it)...but anyway, he's super legalistic about everything. He'd hassle me about how long I conducted the meetings for FS and complain about how he was pioneering that month and needed to get in more time. So...I called his whiney little complaint and since I was pioneering too, I dragged him out in the Texas summer sun and we worked this whole hilly street about a mile long until sweat was dripping off the end of his nose at the door. Since he and I were like oil and water personality-wise I figured I needed to spend as much time w/him as possible to get over how much he annoyed me. (you know like when people only do service enough to hate it?...you have to push on through).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share





  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Popular Contributors

  • Topics

  • Posts

  • Members

    • Anna

      Anna 3,263

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Cynthia Little

      Cynthia Little 12

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
  • Recent Status Updates

    • Mic Drop

      This Bitcoin and Crypto stuff is really starting to take off like wildfire
      · 0 replies
    • Arauna  »  Thinking

      Hi, it seems we are the only two left talking about it as the rest have lost interest.  PITY, because they will soon see what is coming. I have always had a good imagination for understanding injustice. ..I watched the video about the injustice you put up.... very sad. We understand those things.....the other video is just a parody, of snippets of a very nasty person.... I do not know who she is but she was standing  next to the health minister.....
      I am not well, so I may not make it thru this system..... and I am happy to say maybe it is a  good thing.... I want to praise jehovah until I die ...but the opportunities are getting less.... and who wants to see people suffer?  If I were still around I would be severely stressed by it.  
      My father always said " know all, blow all" when people think they know it all.  And I have seen some pretty opinionated people on here. Mostly people who have had very little suffering and had authority in congregations.   
      I encourage you to stay strong dear sister and please devote more time to worship Jehovah in love. I also want to cut my time on internet ........ I spend time trying to find hidden  news about new developments in UN etc.  Soon all news about what is really  going on will not be available..... just mandates from governments and propaganda from the governments. People will be liquidated and we will not be able to get news about it. 
      Just stay strong. I am glad you spoke out about Australia.... I have a friend there who is too afraid to talk on internet.  They have already built  Covid "camps" in USA and Australia.... the  ĺorcing all "faith in god" out of everyone..  only worship of the state will be allowed. .... to compromise as many as he can.
      Strengthen yourself. No one can do it for you. 
      · 0 replies
    • Toni  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      Thank you so much for the spiritual food!!!
      Agape
      Toni
      · 0 replies
    • Arauna  »  TrueTomHarley

      Hi Tom, where are u?  I miss ya! 
      · 2 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      ג Guimel
      Ô. Jéhovah trace le chemin de ma vie;
      car en vous je met ma confiance entière.
      Vos paroles se révèlent à mon oreille.
      Je voudrais être prêt à vous servir toute au long de ma vie.
      La source de mes secrets, vous est révelé devant vous;
      votre justice est comme la lumière du soleil en plein midi.
      Seul mon Dieu peut discerner les actions de mon Âme;
      les secrets de mes pensées et de celles de mes actions.
      Ô mon Dieu Jéhovah , je voudrais recevoir l'honneur 
      de la protection du Dieu de mon Salut. 
      J'aimerais recevoir l'eau de ta source pour m'abreuver 
      comme un chameau avant le grand pèlerinage de ma foi.
      Devant vos yeux se dessine la quête de ma victoire;
      Car Jéhovah est grand et infiniment digne de louanges.
      La grandeur de votre sagesse et de votre intelligence est inscrutable.
      Je voudrais rendre grâce à Jéhovah et m'unir à tous les justes et humbles de la terre.
      Tous ensemble exaltons le Nom glorieux de notre Dieu d'amour.
      Les œuvres de notre Dieu Jéhovah sont grandioses, à tout jamais.
      Hallélouyah
      Ô. Jéhovah voulez-vous protèger votre serviteur;
      afin que je vive et que j’obéisse à vos paroles?
      Ouvre mes yeux pour que je vois clairement
      les choses merveilleuses de votre loi qui sont inscrites
      à l'intérieur des paroles de votre livre merveilleux.
       
      Je ne suis qu’un étranger dans le pays de la terre.
      Ô mon Dieu ne me cache d'aucune manière la beauté 
      de vos préceptes qui gardent vos serviteurs en vie.
      Bénis soit celui qui me révèle le chemin que je dois parcourir;
      le désir que manifeste mon âme qui est attaché à ma poussière.
       
      Je voudrais connaître le secret de préserver mon âme;
      ce cadeau inestimable du seul vrai Dieu; ce lien d'appartenance que je dois préserver au gré de ma vie comme à la prunelle de mes yeux.
      Je voudrais brûler constamment de désir pour tes jugements;
      car les jugements de mon Dieu révèle sa grandeur.
       
      Ô. Jéhovah réprimandes les présomptueux,
      les hypocrites qui dévient de la beauté de tes commandements.
      Éloigne de moi la dérision et le mépris de ce monde,
      car je veux obéir à tes rappels et je veux être soucieux de garder 
      mon âme de toutes violences et de toutes souillures de ce monde.
      Même si les princes de ce monde se réunissent 
      pour parler contre tes serviteurs;
      Tes serviteurs méditent sur vos prescriptions;
      unie à votre amour comme un seul, nous sommes attachés à vos rappels ;
      Tous ceux qui sont avec toi au mon Dieu sont mes conseillers.
      L'humilité et ma douceur garde mes yeux éveillés à lire votre parole, jour et nuit; car votre parole est la source de la lumière qui fera briller mon âme au jour de votre salut.
      Ô. Jéhovah fait briller ta justice et ton droit comme l’aurore du soleil en plein midi.
      Les descendants de ton salut seront puissant sur la terre.
      Gloire et honneur soit rendu à notre Dieu Jéhovah. 
      Bénis soit le Dieu unique de notre Salut
      Hallélouyah.
       

      · 1 reply
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      64.3k
    • Total Posts
      141.6k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      17,264
    • Most Online
      1,592

    Newest Member
    Luc
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.