2 Thessalonians 2

[Guest]

"However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here."

 

Jesus did not receive the kingdom in 1914. The anointed of old were not resurrected at that time.

 

"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time."

 

The governing body has apostatized and places themselves in the seat of a god by claiming to be able to dictate truths that are in opposition to God and by requiring worship of themselves ahead of God.

 

"True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way."

 

Revelation 7 shows that the angels were holding back the winds of destruction until the anointed were all sealed. "After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.  And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads." The angels are the ones "acting as a restraint" as referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2 because they are holding back the winds of destruction.

 

"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence."

 

Jesus is at present revealing the lawless ones by means of the spirit of his mouth when by holy spirit he sends forth many faithful messengers to tell the truth about the bad things the governing body is doing.

 

"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders  and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved.  That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,  in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

The governing body appears to do many things by God's backing, but some of the things they do are not by God's backing. Many are fooled into believing that the false doctrines and false practices have God's approval.

 

"However, we are obligated always to thank God for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because from the beginning God selected you for salvation by sanctifying you with his spirit and by your faith in the truth.  He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain your hold on the traditions that you were taught, whether it was by a spoken message or by a letter from us.  Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness,  comfort your hearts and make you firm in every good deed and word."

 

The traditions that are proper include the ones that are taught in the Bible. It is proper to love. It is proper to have good elders and to meet together. It is proper to preach. It is proper to abstain from blood. It is proper to have a governing body. However, it is not proper to worship the governing body or the elders. Jehovah will clean the organization. Praise Jehovah.

[Moise Racette]

9 minutes ago, AnnaNana said:

Jesus did not receive the kingdom in 1914. The anointed of old were not resurrected at that time.

 

How can the poster confirm this? Simple question, how about an answer. If the poster is going to be absolute, then the poster has proof.

[Witness]

5 hours ago, Moise Racette said:

How can the poster confirm this? Simple question, how about an answer. If the poster is going to be absolute, then the poster has proof.

This is a test - do you support God's word, or do you support the folly of men?

 

How do we confirm that 1914 is a lie?  The scriptures confirm it. Here's one way.  Has Watchtower revealed who the man of lawlessness is?  That it sits in the Temple of God? (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) 

Not a fake one that Watchtower claims; but the authentic TEMPLE OF GOD as the scriptures state?

No, they haven’t revealed who the authentic man of lawlessness is.

So, when the apostle Paul said…

 “Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. ² Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.” 2 Thess 2:1,2

…we need to clarify some things:

Firstly, who compares themselves to “us” – to the apostles?  The GB,  A. Morris particularly, just ask him; and if these men are truly anointed, then "supposedly from us", could mean supposedly from the anointed ones.  Matt 24:24,25

Secondly, who has said that the "day of the Lord" has already begun?

The day of the Lord is another way to say = "the Lord’s day".

“As Jehovah’s witnesses we are intensely interested in Revelation, for we recognize that since 1914 we have been living in the “Lord’s day". Km 5/70

Thirdly, This “day of the Lord” was supposedly the time that God’s Kingdom/Messianic Kingdom was BORN in heaven.

“It laid out convincing Scriptural evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born in 1914, fulfilling the prophetic picture of God’s heavenly woman giving birth, as recorded in Revelation chapter 12.  kr, chapter 5

About this birth, Watchtower states -

Have those things that Jesus and Paul foretold taken place in our time? Yes, they certainly have. World War I was by far the worst war up to that time. It was the first world war and was the turning point in modern history. Along with that war went food shortages, disease epidemics, and other calamities. Those events from 1914 onward were, as Jesus put it, “a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:8) What is the purpose of life, pg 27

Okay, as brought out here several times in the past, the Wt. Kingdom Interlinear Translation reads Matt 24:8 as indicating, not “pangs of distress”, but “pangs of birth”.

Wt. says in 1914, a kingdom was born, and then birth pangs followed!  That’s like saying a woman gave birth with no pain, nothing.  The baby just popped out.  And while holding her newborn baby, she began to experience painful contractions, which is called labor pains/birth pains.  They lasted for hours and hours, and nothing came from all of that painful labor.  That’s because, according to Wt. reasoning, she had already given birth before she went into labor!  She had produced a baby, and now she was suffering from labor pains.

What a twisted lie.

 

Labor Pains

 

 

 

 

 

[Moise Racette]

34 minutes ago, Witness said:

This is a test - do you support God's word, or do you support the folly of men?

Does this poster intend to conclude, just because scripture doesn't specifically state gentile times, that it doesn't exist? 

36 minutes ago, Witness said:

How do we confirm that 1914 is a lie?  The scriptures confirm it. Here's one way.  Has Watchtower revealed who the man of lawlessness is?  That it sits in the Temple of God? (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) 

This only confirms, how the poster misrepresents articles, nothing more. If you wish to have an intellectual bible discussion, by all means, lets have one, without distorting facts and scripture. Remember, the posters interpretation of scripture, lacks reasoning and wisdom.

[Moise Racette]

Keep in mind @Witness. You will have to prove why you are stubbornly "removing" from scripture this adaptation. The poster is fighting an uphill battle.

Luke 21:23-24 NIV
23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
 

Even to the nation of modern day Israel, they believe it happened in 1917 with the Belfour Declaration. A reason they hold 1947/8 and 1967/8 significant to them. 
 

Therefore, this poster is playing with words. Gentile Times vs Times of the Gentiles. Prove that, 1914 war wasn't part of that gentile fulfilment?

[Witness]

34 minutes ago, Moise Racette said:

Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 

New Jerusalem is the Temple of God comprised of the anointed (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:20-22)

They are  under the mother covenant of life - Gal 4:26

That is what the "woman" in Rev 12 is all about - this promised covenant and those who are part of it.  Rev 12:1,2

Are the anointed "living stones" of the Temple "trampled" today?  Yes, by the elders who have replaced the as a counterfeit priesthood.  The anointed, under the rule of both the GB and the elder body, are silenced. (Matt 24:48-51)  They cannot join together as a body.  And all JWs put up with it!  

You know what's amazing to me, In Norway, the Wt is screaming loudly, because they have lost funding for their  disfellowshipping rule.  So they create a department (whatever it's called) to fight against this country - to sue them - HIRING LAWYERS, and wasting donations so that they receive money yearly from Norway. They want to do things their way.   Your first indication that the organization isn't the "truth", is their need to obtain money, use it to "buy" their rights in the court systems, and fight against victims of abuse. They are an aggressive, spiteful organization.

 TRUTH FROM THE FATHER AND THE SON STANDS ON ITS OWN. 

Rom 12:17; 2 Cor 2:17; Matt 10:8; 1 Pet 3:15  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+12%3A17%3B+2+Cor+2%3A17%3B+Matt+10%3A8%3B+1+Pet+3%3A15&version=NIV

But when it comes to allowing the anointed priests in the organization to gather and worship under their Head Jesus Christ, they prohibit it. They have scattered these "stones", and have literally told them not to bond together. (Matt 24:2) This is the trampling of a people - "Israel", and it is done by "Gentiles" - the elder body.  If the authentic priests reject this ruling, they are disfellowshipped, "killed".  

Rev 11:1-2 - I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Rev 11:3,7:  "And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”  Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them."

These symbolic "two witnesses" are the anointed who stand up and reject the lie spoken by the GB and it's elders.  Zech 4:11-14; Rev 11:4-6

This is another period of time that "Gentiles" rule over God's holy people, invading the Temple of God.  Rev 13:1,2,5-7; Mark 13:14; Dan 8:11,12; 11:31

 

 

 

[Moise Racette]

5 minutes ago, Witness said:

New Jerusalem is the Temple of God comprised of the anointed

Where are these anointed being gathered from, or does the poster have a different theory on how, the holy priest have already been gathered and are in heaven? One point of discussion with the text cited by the poster. 1 Peter 2:5

Let's not inflate the discussion with lengthy wording, your not impressing me with long answers. Stick to bible understanding if the poster can.

[Moise Racette]

23 minutes ago, Witness said:

But when it comes to allowing the anointed priests in the organization to gather and worship under their Head Jesus Christ, they prohibit it. They have scattered these "stones", and have literally told them not to bond together. (Matt 24:2) This is the trampling of a people - "Israel", and it is done by "Gentiles" - the elder body.  If the authentic priests reject this ruling, they are disfellowshipped, "killed".  

Like I said, not that the poster has answered the question in any sensible way, but is now distorting scripture. I will ask the poster to justify the following:

(Romans 11:25-27) 25 For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away. . .
 

Personal opinions don't matter when it comes to a serious bible discussion.

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Moise Racette said:

Even to the nation of modern day Israel, they believe it happened in 1917 with the Belfour Declaration. A reason they hold 1947/8 and 1967/8 significant to them. 

 

1 hour ago, Moise Racette said:

Personal opinions don't matter when it comes to a serious bible discussion.

Have a good evening, Allen.  

[Moise Racette]

1 minute ago, Witness said:

Have a good evening, Allen.  

Thank You Ann, you to!

[Moise Racette]

Remember @Witness, your fighting an uphill battle, but I'll give you a hint on how the Jewish Nation thinks with this:

11:26 - All Israel Will Be Saved?

Rom 11:26 has been at the heart of much Christian reflection about eschatology or doctrines about end times. I remember well the interpretation given this text by one of my college teachers. According to his eschatological timeline, the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, which ended an almost two-thousand-year period without nationhood, inaugurated the final days of "the time of the Gentiles," namely that period when the land of Israel was occupied by Gentiles. 

(from Hard Sayings of the Bible)
 

[Guest]

Daniel chapter 4 does not say anything about Gentile Times.

 

"Do not interpretations belong to God?"

 

In Daniel chapter 5, and chapters 7-12, there is an angel who tells Daniel what the interpretations of the visions are. The angel tells Daniel when a vision is about one kingdom or another.

 

In Daniel chapter 4, there is no angel telling Daniel that the tree means anything else. 

 

In Daniel chapter 5, Jehovah revealed to Daniel what the handwriting on the wall meant, and Daniel stated it clearly to the king. Daniel didn't say it had another meaning for a future king. If there was another meaning, he would have stated it clearly.

 

In Daniel chapter 4, the vision is made clear. Jehovah can cut down whoever he wants. The seven times was specific to Nebuchadnezzar. There was no secondary application. Any supposed secondary application is make-believe, made-up, fraudulent, apostate, an addition to God's Word, a twisting of the truth.

 

Jehovah is going to cut down anyone who acts like Nebuchadnezzar when it is God's appointed time. It is soon to be God's appointed time to put Jesus on the throne in heaven. Jesus said no one would know the day or the hour, but when it comes, we will see Satan cast out. When Satan is cast out, in his great rage he will attack God's people. Jehovah will permit Satan to use the United Nations to destroy false religion. There are many false religionists in God's House at present, lawless ones who have a form of godly devotion but prove false to its power. Jehovah will allow these false ones to be removed. The angels will protect righteous ones who are sighing and groaning over what is going on in Jehovah's organization, and when the angels have removed all the false teachings and the wicked ones, pure worship will be restored. 

 

Daniel chapters 7,8 and 12 show it will be 3 1/2 years, the appointed times of the nations led by the UN, to trample on the holy ones, Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah has not abandoned us. He is telling us ahead of time, like He always does. Do not be afraid. Jehovah's angels will stay with the faithful ones. If you have an ear to hear, listen! "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" From when the tribulation begins, the appointed time is 1,335 days. Keep in expectation of it! Jehovah's Word Always Comes True.

 

Praise Jehovah!