Thinking

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

Hi JW Insider,
Interesting point you have brought up regarding the blood issue and Bro Smalley.   I can see why he's "out of sorts" being in a position to defend a public policy which is quite different from a personal one.   Personally, I choose not to accept the fractions, but I'm 69 yo.   I have a copy of a news article from some years back (somewhere in my "stuff") regarding a lawsuit brought against the Society by a daughter of one of our sisters who died from apparent lack of blood.  The daughter (not a JW) maintained her mother didn't know her "options".   I have had a sense that this lawsuit changed the Branch's "education" on the blood issue.  Can you imagine having to defend the 2000 yo doctrine in a modern court with hostile attorneys chipping away with their worldly logic?   The fraction education could be the "agreed upon" correction defined by the courts to keep the Branch financially upright.  I worked for State government so I know how it works to a certain degree.  Fed would come in to examine how their funds are being spent, find violations and part of the reconciliation to avoid large fines  was to demonstrate to the Feds how the problem would be resolved with "education" on a certain policy.   Sometimes we're behind a rock and a hard place.  Satan likes that technique to pressure people to forego our strict belief system, not white to black but more into the grey area.   I look at the people donating blood and that's enough to turn me against the idea, then in a pint of blood you have many many donors.  I wonder about DNA from all those donors and how that plays into the issue.  What if they find even more info about our "human makeup" in the future.   There are lots of issues to be resolved,  Jesus has been given the responsibility to care for the congregation of Jehovah, so I let him know my concerns and then leave it to him to sort it out.   It's so very obvious we are coming to the end of human rule,  let's keep our focus on the Kingly government that will set matters straight.   Remember Aaron who started to doubt because Moses delayed on the mountain.  There was a refining process by Jehovah to let the Israelites and the mixed company get hungry, thirsty and wondering what happened to Moses (i.e. their leadership).   I wish you well and send my sisterly love,  S

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

How does this make any sense to average jws? 
............................
Try not to underestimate the Average JWs....many have and are working things out...but they are also working out some things that others here are not...
the thing you have to remember....is Jehovah  will and always has disciplined his chosen men in authority over his people...
1) Moses ...he was a murderer before he was ever given his assignment....and at nearing the end of their journey...due to such a heavy load upon him and stresses that none of us could bear...he actually became self righteous and proud..and I am imagining that attitude  would not have happened over night or just when he walked and stood before the Rock..
all Jehovah told Moses To do was to SPEAK to the rock...but no...Moses first yelled abuse at the people.( I dont really blame him but he was not ordered to do that ) 
he had no right to do that.
And  Moses becoming full of himself and his importance ( pride ) he felt HE had to do MORE than what was asked of him.
He struck the rock ..not once...but his personal decision and leaning on his own Underderstanding and reasonings...he struck TWICE..because he deemed the stupid people needed that..( do you or have you ever felt that the GB have beaten you with their rod ) ...and then he gathered the miracle to himself by saying ..
SHALL WE....As we all know it had nothing to do with him..but everything to do with Jehovah...( he took the glory to himself and ignored Jehovah )
 
now we all know he was disciplined very harshly later for that but what most miss...and this is a very important point...is Jehovah still expected the People to follow his instructions that he gave to Moses.....he STILL USED the about to be disciplined Moses....and he EXPECTED the people to follow those instructions ...because they never came from Moses but Him.
yes Jehovah allowed Mosses to sin...as he did Aaron...as he did King David...and countless others he used.........because there is no human that can rule over or govern his people on this earth..and he knew that all along...he knew whoever takes authoritarian position over his gathered   people will commit such grave errors..
yet he still expected the people to stay together......but he expects us to work these things out...to reason on why he allows these things...
Moses didn’t trust Jehovah enough to just speak...
Jehovahs approach was much more gentle and kind to the Israelites ...take your rod, assemble the people and speak to the rock.
Moses was rather bombastic Prideful and harsh and he did it His way...
Numbers 20:24
Because you rebelled against MY Command at the waters of Meribah you will not enter into the land for which I have given to the sons of Israel.
Imagine that....calling and accusing Moses and Aaron of being Rebels
and yet it was Moses and Aaron who accused the people of being rebels ...
Numbers 20:10
.....hear now YOU REBELS
the point being is Jehovah will always discipline those he allows authority and those who claim to have it....
yet he still loved Moses very much and even after death..Jesus safeguarded his bones ....
Until MOSES death he still expected the people to follow his instructions...as his job was still yet to be completed....nobody fled the camp after Moses verbal abuse of them or harsh display of frustration and piety....they stayed...and trusted Jehovah..to handle the situation..
so too today...we must trust that Jehovah knows what he is doing...
Soon we will cross over Into that New Land....and as Joshua/ typifying Jesus led the people..into the land flowing with milk and honey........so to will Jesus....lead those who prove faithfull.
Yes it’s excruciating at times..but the night is well along...and the day will soon break forth....
 

 

I quote 4jah2me "it seems crazy to let yourself die" ...... well ..... jesus allowed himself to die in loyalty to his father......  4jah2me obviously sees something seriously SICK in that!......... or maybe did not fully understand what I was referring to.
There is a problem: he cannot see that a person should not value his life more than his obedience to God!!! 
Matt 16 :25
"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.  "
 
 

You are a sick lady to say such a thing. 
I'd better stop at that. 

I don't  think it was meant that way Arauna. @Anna asked a genuine question about the very young children being included in the count and @James Thomas Rook Jr. being his normal self made a joke about two or three year olds being included. 
It wasn't to suggest that adult JWs are children or babies. It was actually talking about real babies. 

They will count baptized children, down to the age of three, or if they have been potty trained, down to the age of two.

I put "rules" in quotes because I believe actual rules are too much like laws, and then it smacks of legalism, and we therefore miss the spirit of Jesus' instructions. Especially if they are always followed the exact same way so often that we aren't really paying much attention.
But you hit upon a few of the "rules" to question already:
Why does our wine need to be the same as a "Passover" wine? At one time, an elder would purchase the wine and no else one really thought much about whether it was "Kosher for Seder" or exactly what levels of sugar it had. Now that millions of Witnesses will think about going out to buy it on their own, they might wonder why we don't try for wine made from Israeli grapes/vineyards. What constitutes too much preservative to make it impure if it must represent the unblemished Lamb? And if it's too difficult to get your own wine, some will wonder (as you did) if you should get symbols at all! Or perhaps, since no one is partaking, would it be OK to take the closest matching wine from your own wine rack? After all, it's only called "the product of the vine" in the Scriptures, and we don't know much more about any Galilean variations for Passover.
Also, what if someone has decided just before the Memorial that they now are of the anointed class and the symbol wasn't offered? And, even if no one is partaking, how important is to follow the words: "Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves" (Luke 22:17)
The same kinds of questions could be asked about the bread. 
(Also, the question might arise about whether a family needs to clear the food from the dinner table first, since the disciples seemed not have done so in Matt 26:
(Matthew 26:20-26) . . .When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” ... “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24 ... 26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.”
(Usually it was a bowl of oil that a piece of bread was dipped into.)
Other questions, like I mentioned, might be why it has to be on Nisan 14, if Jews could celebrate a month later? Or why do we even celebrate it once a year like Passover was celebrated, when Paul said "whenever" and Jesus sais "as often"? Or, is it proper to have this celebration at a house when Paul said that people should eat at their home instead of where they partake of the Memorial?
(1 Corinthians 11:20-22) . . .When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? . . .
And for some, they might be paying more than the usual attention to this particular Memorial and perhaps even deeper questions might arise about the doctrine itself. Perhaps questions some should NOT be asking. Whether partaking in a Biblical sense actually means sharing which some might say we should all be doing. Or even whether the particular part of the Kingdom hope we wish for ourselves personally should have anything to do with whether we are supposed to partake. 
(1 Corinthians 10:16, 17) . . .The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ? The loaf that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of the Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf.
 

I know of an elder and his wife who will not have any symbols at all. I also heard one brother mention the appropriateness of a recovering alcoholic obtaining wine. Our household (3 of us) will have the emblems, but I don't think I am going to pass them around. To me that would feel too pretentious since the reason for passing them is not there...
I am not sure what rules you are referring to with regard to the memorial. The only rules I know of, and they are pretty straightforward, is the wine should be unfortified and the bread unleavened and the anointed are the only ones who partake and the great crowd are observers. The exceptions to the rules are If there is no one partaking then the emblems are not necessary. They are only necessary when a whole congregation physically gathers in case someone partakes. In a home where it is clear no one will partake, then to me, having the symbols is like a Catholic having a statue of a crucified Jesus to remind himself visually of the sacrifice that he made. That's how I see it anyway....
As a side line,  the friends fussing over what brand or type of red wine should be used is positively irritating me, lol. Red wine is red wine! As for the bread, as long as it is unfortified flour and water, rolled into a flatbread and baked, it doesn't matter if it's as hard as rock, because no one will eat it! 😄

Thank Jehovah for that!

Most of these churches that defy government quarantine restrictions do so because they see the government being opportunistic—‘never let a crisis go to waste.’ They are intensely political on the right, celebrate the Bill of Rights, and they fear that government surveillance, monitoring, restrictions will not revert to normal after the crisis has passed. To them, the crisis is the wedge to introduce permanent restriction of freedom. Some see it as a deliberate move to so decimate capitalism that all that will be left is for socialism to take the helm. A fringe of these people even think the ‘crisis’ is manufactured for exactly that purpose—to extend control and restrictive means of government over all persons. And don’t get them going about Bill Gates!
None of this is so absurd to be dismissed out of hand. See how popular Bernie Sanders is, or even Elizabeth Warren. The trouble with conspiracy theories is that once a few of them turn out to be true it becomes so much easier to swallow anything coming down the pipe. I am glad that we really don’t have to worry about it. We never put our trust in human institutions, so if it turns out that there are machinations amongst them, it does not unsettle us to the degree that it unsettles people who do put full trust in human self-rule. Nor do we look to human institutions for ‘staying power.’ If they don’t go down this way, they will go down that way. All we have to do is stay loyal to God, no matter what, and let the chips fall where they may. When push comes to shove, this life is not the ‘real’ life of 1 Timothy 6:19.

Another thought you bring up is this next idea:
I'm sure the thought has occurred to some that we Witnesses have always expected an opportunity to arise when religions are "banned" or effectively put under pressure not to meet. The idea is that we Witnesses would never give in, but would risk our lives to continue on as always no matter what the authorities threatened. 
In the past, I have stated here that it seems quite unlikely that this scenario (up to that point at least) would really allow the Witnesses to stand very far apart from other religions, because I would expect that dozens of other religions have an apocalyptic view of themselves and are awaiting the same thing. Some of these non-JW groups actually expect this action to come from the UN, too. 
Also, we strongly expect that our meetings under ban would be "underground" or based on much smaller groupings, and effectively invisible to authorities.
And now, with Covid-19, we see a glimpse of how many other religions react to governmental bans and restrictions on meetings. Many have defied the orders of local authorities under threat of having their doors closed and large fines imposed. Mayors are being accused of being too harsh on these restrictions because such sanctions could end up keeping the doors closed on some churches and synagogues even after the crisis is over. Yet some of these religions appear to believe that God will protect them. 

I think you have stated the question very well and have already implied the answers.
Yes, some see it as a ritual. But it really is a ritual, just as baptism is a ritual that is not optional. Some religions also treat all wedding ceremonies and even funerals as rituals. Some have different or additional rites and rituals. For one who considers himself or herself anointed, it is like baptism: not an optional ritual.
As you (and the WT said) the important thing is not to see the ritual as something more than it is. It is not a necessary part of salvation, but an opportunity for a personal and public expression of faith, just like baptism. Although it seems appropriate that members of the other sheep should joyfully celebrate such expressions of faith by the anointed, it is too solemn to be considered a celebration. It is often more solemn than some Witness funerals. There is such quiet and seriousness, that no one even seems to notice if someone, somewhere in the Hall, had partaken. Sometimes, I only notice whether all the glasses, initially filled to exactly the same height, come back to the front table with one of them having less wine in it. And then I wonder if there was a partaker, or if some sister got some wine accidentally spilled on her dress.
For a time, the Watchtower made it clear that persons who were of the "other sheep" class, were not invited to the Memorial. Some time later, it was made clear that they would not partake of the emblems and they were invited to join.
Sometimes (rarely) we hear the objection that the other sheep only attend in order to show that they are refusing to follow Jesus command to "Take, Eat!" and "Take. Drink!"  Or even as if we are only there to physically reject the symbols of Jesus' ransom, I have answered that this is just as much a way for the other sheep to express their faith in an earthly paradise under the rule of Jesus and the 144,000 but separate from them.
I have seen Memorials where the scene is "over-the-top" ritualistic when the emblems are offered and refused by the speaker. It can seem even more so where the speaker partakes, and it looks like the changing of the guard at Buckingham when a specially choreographed arrangement is made on the stage for up to 4 servers and the speaker to pass the emblems among themselves, with the speaker in the middle and a table off to each side.
 

I have noticed many friends seem to be stressing about the acquisition of the memorial symbols during the coronavirus lockdown. There have been quite a few discussions on social media and in person.
These discussions were mainly regarding the necessity for memorial symbols if such became troublesome to purchase and if no one in the household was a partaker. The elders sent out information, one  of which was the 85 WT 2/1/ p. 31 "question from readers" ( https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1985128 )which says in part:
"On occasion, raging storms or floods have prevented a congregation, or some of its members, from meeting together as planned. In rare cases, martial law has been in effect with armed soldiers barring citizens from being out-of-doors after sunset. Other Christians have not been able to be at the congregation’s celebration because of being hospitalized or seriously ill. What can be done in such instances?
While it is fitting for the whole congregation to unite for this important event, circumstances such as noted above may make that impossible. When extreme weather, a natural disaster, or the like, absolutely prevents a family or a portion of a congregation from meeting with the congregation, the isolated ones can meet and discuss Scriptural accounts such as found in Luke 22:7-23, 28-30 and; 1 Corinthians 11:20-31, as well as discussing the meaning of the occasion. Similarly, if an enforced curfew makes it impossible for a congregation to gather on the appropriate night, meeting in Congregation Book Study groups or neighborhood groups might be the best alternative, the sum of those in attendance serving as the congregation’s attendance report. A brief talk may even be given if a capable, dedicated brother is in the group. There need not be concern that no suitable emblems are available as long as no one in this emergency situation previously partook of the bread and the wine as an anointed Christian".
It made me think about the whole topic a little bit more. To observe the memorial was a command by Jesus for the anointed, and as far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible commanding the great crowd to observe it, even as spectators. However, at the beginning, before the great crowd was identified, all were partakers. After that, the emblems kept being passed, and those who were anointed partook, and those who were not obviously didn't. Fast forward to today, in a congregation setting, even if we "know" that currently no one partakes, that can change. So while all the anointed are not sealed yet, we cannot assume, and stop passing along the emblems on the account that we think no one is anointed in our congregation. No one is asked beforehand if they are going to partake, that only becomes evident when the emblems reach them, and they eat the bread and drink the wine. That way, no one is put on the spot. Of course, on top of that, since we are one flock, and we support the anointed in everything, we observe the memorial with them, as spectators, and also to show appreciation for what Jesus did for us. But, under lockdown circumstances if we know for sure no one is going to partake in our family, then there is really no need for the emblems. That's how I see it anyway. But some prefer to have the emblems to help them visualize things better. Although we are supposed to be walking by faith, not by sight...😀
I like how our website puts it: "The purpose of the Lord’s Evening Meal is to remember Jesus, showing our gratitude for his sacrifice in our behalf. (Matthew 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:24) The observance is not a sacrament, or a religious practice that imparts merit such as grace or the forgiveness of sins. * The Bible teaches that our sins can be forgiven, not by a religious rite, but only through faith in Jesus".—Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1, 2. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/lords-supper/
Unfortunately, it seems like some are viewing the memorial as some kind of religious ritual, and are even going to pass the emblems among themselves as if touching them somehow makes all the difference....Because I come from a Catholic family, I find this kind of reasoning a little disappointing...
Also, I don't know if anyone has listened to the memorial talk, the brother says that Jehovah's Witnesses would risk their lives to be at the memorial. In view of all the above, isn't that statement a little far fetched?
Any thoughts?
 

I have barely seen a more stupid chart in my life, apparently designed to demonstrate that there is no God:

See original: https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/2012/08/02/the-flow-problem-of-evil/
 
The dopiest part has to be the boxes at bottom and lower left. They pose a dilemma akin to: “Can God make a mountain that he cannot move?”
People who would have you believe that they are ‘thinkers’ assume they have knocked it out of the park with this ‘gotcha.’
The most skilled critical thinkers of our age employ their intellect to miss what is right before their nose. Their underlying assumption, entirely unproven, is that God should be Santa Claus, showering presents without regard for whoever is naughty or nice. If he doesn’t do that, then there must be no God.
[Edit....I played with this one all morning and eventually expanded it to something I put on my own blog. Comment on it here, if you will, not there, since my own comment section is selective and does not stay open long in any event:
https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2020/04/this-has-to-be-one-of-the-stupidest-charts-i-have-ever-seen-on-evil-and-suffeirng.html ]

This was inevitable.
That is why soon the most precious metal may soon be lead, with a brass casing.

Right after talking to his disciples about when “the end will come” at Matthew 24:13, 14 Jesus warned of a time when his followers would “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” after which they were to “begin fleeing” from Jerusalem and the surrounding district of Judea “to the mountains”. (Mt 24:14-16)  This was a signal that the end was imminent.  For the most part, all can agree how and when this occurred in the first century but what about our understanding of the modern day fulfillment?  Do we understand it completely?  What prophecies “spoken about by Daniel the prophet” was Jesus referring to in regard to the modern day fulfillment of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?
There are only a four prophecies of Daniel that could apply to Jesus description of a “disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place”. 
 
Daniel 8:9-25 is a prophecy that Jehovah’s Witnesses applied to Anglo America, starting first with Britain as a “horn, a small one” then when joined by America this horn “grows very great toward the south, toward the east and toward the decoration”.  Then Anglo America is said to become responsible for a “transgression causing desolation” upon God’s people “to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on.” (Da 8:9-25)  This was applied to the persecution of Jehovah’s witnesses starting in Nazi Germany and then persecution expanding to engulf the British Commonwealth and America during WWII.  However, could this prophecy in Daniel 8:9-25 apply to a time when Anglo America stands the UN disgusting thing “in a holy place”?  If so, does this passage show that this “holy place” is associated with God’s people?    
Another prophecy that could apply is Daniel 11:30-35, this prophecy is regarding the king of the north.  In this prophecy he is said to “hurl denunciations against the holy covenant” and then he returns or “will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.” (Da 11:30b, 31)  Jehovah’s Witnesses have applied this prophecy in a few ways.  It is applied to Nazi Germany’s assault of Gods people during WWII and it is also expanded to include the installation of the UN as the disgusting thing in 1945 as well as the intrusion into their organization by Soviet spy’s during the Cold War.   Is it possible that Daniel 11:30c shows that the king of the north returns to assault Gods people again by standing the UN disgusting thing in a holy place? (Da 11:31)  Also do to the similarities in the language used in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 8:9-25 show a possibility they are describing the same thing and does this suggest Anglo America is the king of the north?   
Another prophecy in Daniel that could relate to the standing in a holy place is Daniel 11:40-12:1.  According to the prophecy of Daniel 11:40-43 the king of the north “storms” against the king of the south and “enter(s) into the lands and sweep(s) through like a flood and also enter(s) into the land of the Decoration”.  Again this has been applied by Jehovah’s Witnesses to events surrounding the persecution of God’s people during WWII particularly in Nazi Germany and then by the Soviet Union during the Cold War (because these world powers were viewed as the king of the north).  Yet according to the latter part of the prophecy in Daniel 11:44-12:1 after conquering Egypt (a symbol for both the world and the king of the south) the king of the north will “go out (of Egypt) in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction” and will return to Israel to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration”.  Jehovah’s Witnesses view this as a future and final attack on the estate of spiritual Israel by the King of the north.  Armageddon or God’s war was said to be triggered by this attack which is said to come at the end of the great tribulation after false religion is destroyed.  
Because of reasoning in this manner, Jehovah’s Witnesses have never associated this final attack by the king of the north with “the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . .  standing in a holy place”. (Mt 24:15)  Also they view the “standing in a holy place” as an attack upon false religion and not an attack directed at Jehovah’s Witnesses.  But does the scriptural evidence within the context of Daniel 11:44-12:1 point to a time when the land of Decoration (a symbol of spiritual Israel) is invaded by the king of the north near his end?  Also if Anglo America is actually the king of the north would such an understanding harmonize with the other prophecies of Daniel already mentioned above and would that enhance understanding of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?  
 
Daniel 12:5-12 is a vision that surrounds a period of 3 ½ years that involves “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people”. (Da 12:5-7)  This was viewed as something that occurred to the bible students during WWI, which climaxed when eight prominent members were imprisoned, headquarters was shut down and the constant feature (the preaching work) was said to be removed.  The date set for this 3 ½ year time period is December 1914 to June 1918.  Daniel 12:11, mentions a time period of “1290 days” that occurs when “the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place”.  Jehovah’s Witnesses used this verse to explain that after the preaching was virtually stopped and the League of Nations was proposed in Jan 1919 there was “1290 days” in which “anointed Christians awaken and progress spiritually”. The “1335 days” of Daniel 12:12 is said to follow on the heels of the 1290 days, and is a time when the “anointed Christians attain a happy state”.  However could it be possible that the application of Daniel 12:5-12 has not been fully understood and that it may extend to the time when “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” is “standing in a holy place”, a holy place associated with God’s holy people?  
All four of the above mentioned prophecies picture either a ‘profaning’ or a ‘transgressing’ of the temple sanctuary (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses these are symbols of the condition of the anointed congregation), an ‘entering’ into “the land of the decoration” (a symbol of the spiritual estate of anointed remnant) or “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people” (depicting persecution and stoppage in their preaching work).  In all four of these prophecies, Jehovah’s Witnesses view the anointed as either “holy people”, “holy ones”, the “sanctuary” (Decoration / temple), “the land of the decoration” (spiritual Israel) or “the holy mountain of decoration” (Jerusalem).  In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy.  (Mt 24:15)
 
 
 
 
 
 

North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship with its citizens starving most of the time. A shocker for me two years ago was the soldier which defected. He would not have survived longer if he did not defect..... he had so many different kinds of  parasites in his body. This tells you the condition of their soldiers..... and how they care for the soldiers they put on TV parades with the face of the dictator everywhere. 
Venezuela has oil. It should be a rich country.... but a benevolent socialist  dictator brought the poor out if poverty....(he did well on that ) . but then he went further and nationalized all assets and became communist.  He died - The next dictator put the nail in the coffin of the system... Communism killed Venezuela- not America.  It is a bad system of governance. I equate it with feudalism. This is the system the UN is proposing.... a kind of feudalism to get control of the environment..
While I do not support any form of human government - I do evaluate what they do.... and I do not think it is conspiracy when I say I foresee a terrible future for the world if these plans comes to fruition.   That is all. Hopefully jehovah steps in before it goes too far. 
I do believe that some scientists are lying about the environment in their so-called studies.  I believe the biosphere has tremendous problems and geo-engineering is definitely going on to cover up the problems. The forests are being dessimated by China and those still in existence are drying out.  The roots are so dry that new saplings are not sprouting up. Leaves are dry. There are fires in Siberia and Sweden. The Himalaya' s glaciers (Bhuthan is facing severe threats) are melting and forming lakes. When these start to burst and brim over thousands of lives and farming land will be lost. There are islands going under in Maldives.... Too much to mention. 

Who is this arrogant horn who speaks great things?  The British empire which later became the dual Anglo-American empire. This the the horn who persecuted the people of God. It will go down as a world empire and the "rest of the beasts" will be "prolonged for a season" in the United Nations."  
You said some witnesses felt this way: the truth is that many witnesses hate history - have never opened a history book in their lives apart from the bit of  history about their own country they were forced to learn in school and barely passed. Now imagine this in a Daniel or Revelation book..... they do not dig in...... they just sigh and complain.... and say they do not understand.
This is why I partly believe that that the GB are now careful  to not get too complicated. They spoon feed prophecy - only that which is absolutely necessary to understand or being fulfilled in the presenf time - and can clearly be seen. 
It is better for new ones (and old) to learn to cope in a wicked world because there is a violent asault on morality all the time from every aspect of society. It is important to build every ones moral endurance  before Armageddon and their capacity to make good descisions.  GB teach life skills better than ever before..... 
 

"...all the nations have fallen victim...Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins and do not want to receive part of her plagues..." So you are saying that means: "Get out of New York?" What about everyone else on this planet who is affected that doesn't live in New York? Or am I not understanding your thinking here?
I know you are convinced in your own mind about your interpretation, but if, after repeatedly writing the GB about your opinions to "correct" them and teach them (your) right interpretation and they didn't agree with you; the elders in your congregation didn't agree with you (although to be fair you said they weren't willing to entertain much that way); JWs in general don't agree with you; people on this website don't agree with you (and with good reasoning points); and even that other anti-JW posters have a different interpretation than you - you may want to humbly consider the possibility that you may need to rethink the direction you have taken over the last little while - and that you may be wrong. You are essentially asking us to believe that everyone else is wrong and you alone have a pipeline to the "real" truth from God. Most JW's have good reason for believing what they do and even when at times -as seen on this website - we may have questions about certain points we'd like to explore, we still respect the GB/JWs as being where we learned the basic truths we agree with and make JWs different from other religions. 
But for arguments' sake, even if someone accepted some or even all of what you (or other anti-JW posters) consider the truth, then what? What have you got to offer? Leave off being a JW - (which you and other posters here seem to despise and denigrate so much), to go where? To do what? Become part of what? It would be like a driver who picks up an unsuspecting hitchhiker who seems to be going the same way, and then drops them off in the middle of nowhere - with no food, no clothing or shelter. 

Don't get carried away over it. Man is ruining the earth and God will soon ruin those who keep doing it.  Rev. 11: 18 says:
(Revelation 11:18) But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
I endorse the points Anna raised; however about the ground being cursed it seems that the Watchtower is saying otherwise, see quote below:
*** w17 June p. 8 par. 17 Jehovah Provides Comfort in All Our Trials ***
17 Young ones who learn to love the true God and to follow his counsel can become a source of comfort in a family. They can do so by showing respect for their parents and by helping in material ways. They can also make a valuable spiritual contribution. Before the Flood, Seth’s descendant Lamech worshipped Jehovah. That family man said of his son Noah: “[He] will bring us comfort from our labor and from the painful toil of our hands because of the ground that Jehovah has cursed.” That prophecy was fulfilled when the curse on the ground was lifted. (Gen. 5:29; 8:21) On a more personal level, children who pursue true worship can prove to be sources of comfort in their families, helping all to endure present trials and then to survive something greater than the Flood. End quote
Due to lack of knowledge and wickedness, man has ruined the earth by his ignorant mistreatment of it. Governments try to educate people on the right way to treat land, where to build, etc., and people fail to listen.  They prefer to listen to "soaps" and things like that, whereas educational documentaries and directives are not listened to.  And they don't like reading God's Word nor man's. Solomon talked about the benefit of knowledge; Jesus said it would lead to everlasting life (John 17:3)  So we need knowledge and we need righteous people and righteous government to implement knowledge.This would not happen until God's Kingdom is holding sway.  Wicked people and governments have to be removed and righteous government (by God and his Son) has to be in place for the prophecies to be fulfilled. (Dan 2:44)  God is not going to make Satan's system and rule look successful by intervening in the affairs of this world.  He will do it under his righteous rule.
As was stated by Anna, Jesus the King of the new earth will speak to the wind and will control all the elements.  Obedient mankind will also contribute to this, as the prophecy says in Isaiah 11:6-9.
(Mark 4:37-41) 37 Now a great violent windstorm broke out, and the waves kept crashing into the boat, so that the boat was close to being swamped. 38 But he was in the stern, sleeping on the pillow. So they woke him up and said to him: “Teacher, do you not care that we are about to perish?” 39 With that he got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: “Hush! Be quiet!” And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. 40 So he said to them: “Why are you so afraid? Do you not yet have any faith?” 41 But they felt an unusual fear, and they said to one another: “Who really is this? Even the wind and the sea obey him.”
This will also apply to all other natural disasters like floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, forest fires, etc. The causes of these things will be no more.  Knowledge of looking after the earth and its environment will be taught everywhere. Love for God, neighbour and the animal creation will be abundant. 
Isaiah 11:6-9:  The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; And a little boy will lead them.  7 The cow and the bear will feed together, And their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull.  8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.  9 They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea. 10 In that day the root of Jesʹse will stand up as a signal for the peoples. To him the nations will turn for guidance, And his resting-place will become glorious. 

Eccl 7:12 For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner. 
(Isaiah 26:9) In the night I long for you with my whole being, Yes, my spirit keeps looking for you; For when there are judgments from you for the earth, The inhabitants of the land learn about righteousness.

 

@James Thomas Rook Jr.
Perhaps we would discuss the percentage:

Accuracy regarding the prophecies of our day: zero. But hey, I believe that Jesus did not appoint any steward to interpret prophecies,
rather, as stewards, everyone, and especially those who have more authority (the governing body) should feed and care for others. Although I prefer that there is a central doctrinal authority, better than each congregation to believe its own.
But, as others and I have commented previously, I feel very grateful for:
Dismantle the demonic teaching in hell of fire (official doctrine even today of orthodox Judaism, nominal Christianity and Islam, another thing is that ordinary believers do not believe it). Having learned the biblical truth about death, the hereafter, the soul and related subjects. Instead of thinking that God will destroy the Earth, believe rather that Jehovah will create a wonderful paradise, and see how that fits in with the original Purpose. VERY especially, not only knowing the divine name, but having learned the importance of using it, as well as the characteristics of the person and personality of God (as it is not a Trinity, for example) Something that has helped us all, I am sure, is to understand the question of Universal Sovereignty (I have read works of scholars on Job who do not at all convey such precious teaching) This core of teachings, among others, I would say are 90 percent wonderful. Maybe we have 10 percent of "nonsense" in between.
And then there is everything related to the "organization": Bethel houses, branches, the way of dressing of "mature" men and women, the way of exercising authority in the congregation and many similar things ... instead of putting a Percentage (because I am somewhat ashamed to write it) I will only say that I think it happens to us like the apostles when they were impressed by the temple stones. Jesus corrects them by explaining their relative value, in fact, predicting their early destruction.
(let the reader use discernment) Mt 24:15
 

Billy downvoted about a hundred or so of my posts in the last day or so, that I posted over the past year or so.   I got copies of each post downvoted in my email, yesterday.
I enjoyed reviewing what I had said.
When he does that, does EVERYBODY get a copy of what he down votes, or just the person being down voted.?
After about 70, I got bored, and realized how Adolph Hitler got people to agree with him, no matter what he said or did..
Billy appears to think EVERYTHING the Watchtower has ever said, or written, is the Word of God.
This collective body of thought is only best guesses ... assuming the very best of motives, and no interest in keeping money and power, and building an Earthly empire of rank and privilege. beautiful buildings, and the adoration of many millions of Jehovah's Witnesses, and an unlimited expense account.
My rough guess is that 85% of everything that they have ever said is self aggrandizing drivel, and flat wrong .... but then again, what I did learn from "The Truth" over the past 60 years ... that precious 15% ... has made my life better, and kept me from getting killed or incarcerated, and given me three magnificent children, so there is that!
...and of course, there is a great joy and satisfaction of actually know the REAL truth about who the Creator of the Universe is !
Holding to THAT Truth has allowed me to swim with sharks without being eaten alive.
I think it was American Patriot Nathan Hale who said "My Country, right or wrong ... but my Country".
I am inclined to share those sentiments about the truth, in "The Truth".
What should I do  ? ... wait until it's perfect?
That does NOT include supporting or agreeing with the 85%, as BillytheKid46 does.
... and defending the indefensible.
 
 

Allen (and divergenceKO): JW Insider is not an owner of this forum. I have absolutely nothing to do with the site or the owners here. You are as just as much an owner here as I am. I have no way of knowing for sure that you are not the admin, or The Librarian, or Jack or Witness or JTR.
Of course, you leave no evidence that you are any of those persons I just named but you do leave a lot of  evidence that identifies you as the same person I first encountered on this site when you called yourself Allen Smith, not that I really thought that was your real name either, of course.
But none of that matters. I just wanted you to know that your assumption was wrong.
But you are right that the forum is often not good. I won't participate on Jehovahs-Witness.com because I see too many ridiculers when a serious Bible topic is brought up. I don't claim that my own discussions here are always the right way to go about creating discussions either. I've made several mistakes, and much of what I say, upon review, is stated as if it is more than speculation and opinion. But I can promise you again that, when it comes to Bible topics, whether it sounds right or wrong, strong or weak,  fact or opinion, whether it agrees with the Watchtower or disagrees -- it is still basically just opinion. That's why I'm here: to share opinions. I hope that doesn't confuse anyone.