18 hours ago, Anna said:

Well...it looks like Stephanie Fessler settled....we will never find out what really happened now....

There's plenty of testimony already recorded during the 4 days of trial to give us a picture of what really happened. 

3 hours ago, TrueTom said:

The two-thirds quote comes from an article in the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle and it was written in connection with the Penn State - Joe Paterno scandal:

“….it's a mistake to think that the failure of Penn State authorities to report the abuse is a rarity....Studies over the past two decades nationally have consistently shown that nearly two-thirds of professionals who are required to report all cases of suspected abuse fail to do so....."I think that we fail miserably in mandated reporting," said Monroe County Assistant District Attorney Kristina Karle...”

Thank you. 

Filling in the ellipses:

"But it's a mistake to think that the failure of Penn State authorities to report the abuse is a rarity, child abuse educators, prosecutors and investigators said. Studies over the past two decades nationally have consistently shown that nearly two-thirds of professionals who are required to report all cases of suspected abuse fail to do so because they are uncertain of whether abuse occurred, are fearful of making false accusations, or are unsure of their obligation. "

The Spring Grove and Freeland Maryland elders were aware of a romantic and sexual relationship between the minor victim and the middle-aged abuser. A JC was formed and they reproved them both. There was no uncertainty that prevented the elders from reporting to the authorities. As for the Org's Legal Department, which is supposed to be consulted when instances of abuse come to light, its job is to be sure of the congregation's legal obligations.

1 hour ago, TrueTom said:

The general rule is that where the law requires the names of even suspected abusers to be handed over to secular authorities, the JW organization will do it. That's further than most go. Two thirds of those required by law to report persons they suspect of pedophilia, such as medical people, do not do it.

Actually, the ARC found that wasn't so - not one alleged abuser was reported to the authorities, even though some states required it. E.g. I remember the consternation on Br. Spinks' face (Service Department) when it was put to him that they hadn't complied with NSW law about reporting if one has knowledge or a belief that a crime had been committed.

The Fessler case brought it to light that the Org did not comply with PA law by reporting the abuse. Not only that, but even when Watchtower has been court-ordered to produce documentation, it has done everything it can to wiggle out of or obstruct the production of documents, like with the Campos cases.

So it's fair to say that the general practice in the Org has been NOT to report suspected abuse to the secular authorities.

Where did you get the 'two-thirds' statistic from, by the way?

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Child sexual abuse is much more complex than people would like to believe. One can never be sure of exactly what happened and the situation surrounding it.

This is exactly why trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

This was supposed to be a light-hearted, humorous 'Caption this pic' thread.

INTREPID TRAVELLER (and others): The child abuse issue is too weighty to have it piggy-backing on a fun thread. I know you have posted elsewhere on the forum about it with those links. Wouldn't it be best to discuss this on a separate thread?

Meanwhile ....

On 2/24/2017 at 6:14 PM, The Librarian said:

"Bu... *sniff, sob* ... b..ut I want to be a spaceman when I grow up!"

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

So have charges been brought regarding the non-reporting as that seems be outside the scope of the Fessler action?

THAT is a very good question. I cannot find publicly available information on the internet. Maybe it happened and didn't hit the news, or doesn't show up on main searches, or it was a closed prosecution or maybe it is something in the works, or for some reason the authorities aren't actioning it. I don't know. But I'd like to know.

On 2/24/2017 at 3:00 PM, TrueTom said:

Is the abuser truly female as was the victim? Possibly that might account for some of the failure to report an incident of abuse, even the girl's own dad, persons unable to get their heads around that, or thinking that serious abuse would be male upon female. Dunno.

The abuser was a JW sister in her late 40s. She was convicted of indecent assault in May 2012 and is now on the sexual offenders register. The victim was 13 or 14 when the abuse started (c. 2003). The parents became aware of the abuse when their daughter was 15 and reported it to the elders. The elders held a judicial committee for both abuser and victim and reproved them both (poor Stephanie!) for intimate kissing and hugging. This shows that the elders viewed their actions as a sin. However, the elders should have recognized that abuse was going on:

BOE letter, March 14, 1997

What is child molestation?

"Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines
"pedophilia" as "sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object." (See
"Questions From Readers" in The Watchtower of February I, 1997, page 29.) Deuteronomy 23:17,
18 condemns such practices as "detestable." (See the footnotes to verses 17 and 18 in the Reference
Bible. Also, it would be helpful to see the footnote on page 10 of the October 8, 1993, issue of
Awake!) In harmony with these references, we are herein discussing sexual perversion in which
children are the object of sexual abuse, including fondling by an adult. We are not discussing a
situation wherein a consenting minor, who is approaching adulthood, has sexual relations with an
adult who is a few years older than the minor. Rather, we are referring, for example, to situations in
which it is established by a congregation judicial committee that an adult brother or sister has been
guilty of sexually abusing a young child or has been sexually involved with a nonconsenting minor
who is approaching adulthood. 

The suit against Watchtower et al. arises because they should have reported to the authorities under PA law (the Legal Dep't should have advised them to do this). Because they didn't, the abuse continued and escalated into more intrusive sexual acts. Not only that, but it is alleged that the local elders discouraged the victim and her family from contacting the police (so they ignored even the Org's own directive).

BOE letter, August 1, 1995

Still, whether or not the accusation is reported to the authorities, when it is established that a
member of the congregation is guilty of child abuse, appropriate steps should be taken in keeping
with initial direction from the Society's Legal Department.

BOE letter, May 24, 2002

We have long instructed elders to report allegations of child abuse to the authorities where
required by law to do so, even where there is only one witness. (Romans 13:I) In any case, the eIders
know that if the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so.- Galatians
6:5. 

An unholy muck up which resulted in the victim's lasting harm. The Org had no legal (or moral) legs to stand on, which became embarrassingly apparent over the course of the trial. It's no wonder they cut their losses and settled.

On 2/25/2017 at 7:13 AM, Arauna said:

I read your contributions above and you guys carry on like you are scholars arguing back and forth (cherry picking the ideas you like) and not giving any clarity to anyone! ... the reason being is that you are keeping the Bible out of it and just debating for sake of debating..

How does the Bible resolve the question of whether Allah is identified as a moon god?

On 2/25/2017 at 7:13 AM, Arauna said:

As I said before in this forum - when Nimrod and his family turned away from Jehovah they had to fill the void and started a system of spiritism which turned to predictions and superstition inspired by Satan. 

This about Nimrod and his family filling a void and starting a new religious system isn't in the Bible. Where did you get that idea from?

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Although a great body of work had been done - no one had put it together just like A. Hyslop at that time.  So look at his contribution to society in the time frame it was written - do not look back at it with modern eyes.  

Modern eyes or not, Hislop produced a work based on false premises, false history, false or tenuous associations, thereby resulting in false conclusions. I'll repost what Hislop's contemporaries thought about his book:

The Saturday Review, Sept. 17, 1859 (link to full review):

"We should not have thought it worth while to notice Mr. Hislop's lucubrations if his book had not reached a second edition, and thus revealed the melancholy intellectual condition of a portion at least of the British public. For the sake of this class of readers, it may perhaps not be amiss to state gravely why we dissent from his line of argument.

"In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it. 

"Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

"Thirdly, Mr. Hislop's reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted, as if by the touch of Harlequin's wand, into something totally different. 

"Fourthly, Mr. Hislop's argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system. ... 

"... But it is idle to speak seriously of a book which only claims attention by its matchless absurdity, and by the fact that it apparently finds readers. We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable." 

- p. 340 [paragraphs added for ease of reading]

This, in reality, is Hislop's "valuable contribution." 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have marveled at the 'timing' of his writings and wondered if Jehovah did have a hand in it.

Are you suggesting that the 'God of Truth' (Ps. 31:5) had a hand in disseminating falsehood?

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In spite of these tactics, I'm willing to see you try again. If you think you have evidence this time, please start a new topic.

Yes, go ahead, Allen. Make my day. 

On 2/25/2017 at 5:57 AM, INTREPID TRAVELLER said:

Cross or Stake .....................................So what ! Did Jesus die ? Surely that's the important question !

Indeed. But the focus of this thread is on how historical and linguistic scholarship can be misused or ignored to influence readers to a preordained conclusion (namely, that Jesus didn't die on a cross). The shape of the stauros Jesus died on shouldn't be an issue, but the Org has stuck its neck out and made it one.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is a good read!  

https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

I attach a link to an an article about the connection between the moon god and Allah... and it proves that Allah is NOT Jehovah but the moon god.

Umm ... this is what Kurt opened this thread with. We've just been discussing some of its claims! 

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Islam has tried very hard to hide its connections to moon worship

To hide a connection, you first have to establish a connection. A connection between Allah-worship and moon-god-worship has not been established. Therefore, there is no connection to hide.

As an aside, Allen mentioned Dagan and an alleged identification as a fish-god. A reputable academic summary on Dagan is at http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/dagan/index.html. Please note: "A 4th century AD tradition which places Dagan as a fish deity is erroneous (Black and Green 1998: 56)."

Absolutely fascinating, Kurt  - I've only seen the first one you've embedded so far. There is a Part 2:

I know a few old-timers who'll want to see these.

Thanks for posting 

I wish there was a transcript too, Eoin. There's a whole court docket list where you can download a bunch of documents (for a price), but alas, no transcript to be seen 

Quote

 

Do You Go to the Garage Content with Vice Grips, Duct Tape, and WD40?

 

I'm sorry to interrupt this discussion but did anyone else find this thread title worryingly sinister? 

The case ended up being settled out-of-court after a farcical defense by Watchtower (what were they thinking?!). Read Jon Redwood's reports on how it all went down:

http://jwsurvey.org/child-abuse-2/news-bulletin-fessler-versus-watchtower-opening-statements-and-motions-in-jehovahs-witness-child-abuse-trial-day-1

http://jwsurvey.org/child-abuse-2/breaking-news-watchtowers-defense-collapses-jehovahs-witnesses-reproved-for-failure-to-report-child-abuse-settlement-with-fessler-reached

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

And here I thought the focus was going to be on the Beard, darn!

My goodness! You're right! You know I didn't even notice on first glance. Still, I think it looks quite fetching on her.

I don't get it. The bride looks modest to me. On the other hand, are those tight pants the groom is wearing? 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

it's from London somewhere near Bond Street and  Piccadilly Circus:

Oxford Circus. Thank the Interwebs for Google Street View ?  

I would love to know the story behind that picture. Is 'loudspeaker man' shouting about JWs or something completely unrelated?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We can even shout in a bolder and larger font if we wish.

AWESOME! 

I think the man with the loudspeaker is walking up and down past the hospital building rapping and beatboxing at the top of his voice, but really, really badly, and he won't shut up. He's been going at it for 5 hours straight and believes his new composition is the best he's done yet so he wants the exposure. Meanwhile inside, a mother and child are in great distress - see the child is crying. This contributes to the awful din being heard inside the hospital, so much so, that the patients and hospital staff are getting severe headaches. Everyone is in a state of high anxiety. To throw off all that anxiety, throw things at the man.

Hope that helps.

Ooh wow! Beautiful Southern Lights! ❤️️

More pictures from the same (I think) event in Nov. 2015.

Thanks for posting 

Queen Esther, the thread title was put in the form of a question, thereby inviting comment. The 'photo' in the OP was actually an infographic with accompanying remarks. Again, this invites discussion.

Sometimes we simply are unaware that a view is mistaken. I'm sure all of us wouldn't want to intentionally spread "false stories" but rather do our best to be accurate and truthful in what we present for the edification of 'brothers and sisters in the faith.' Agape 

Likewise, I do not post on this for your benefit; I post because it's an aid for any interested readers to navigate through fact and fiction, or at least see another perspective. They can form their own conclusions.

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

 Halaal food (which Muslims eat) - Halaal refers to the crescent moon too!  

 Maybe on your planet. Here on Earth, Halaal just means 'lawful' or 'permissible.'

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

I also mentioned that "Al"- means "the" in arabic

You did?  I thought that was the OP and me. I must have missed it.

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

... but one can get a renegade person anywhere who desperately needs to have a published study and he will come up with some far- fetched etymology of "el"  (which is Hebrew) to try to refute it.

Who in their right mind would try to claim the Hebrew noun 'el' means 'the'? 

12 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

*** g92 2/8 p. 32 Valentine Day—Where Did It Come From? ***
Regardless of the true origin of the practice, it is evident that it is rooted in ancient pagan beliefs 

If the true origin is uncertain, how can it be 'evident' it's rooted in paganism rather than in romantic legends concocted in Middle Ages England? The article mentions Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. The edition available to read online is from c. 1952 (so the Awake's quote referencing Lupercalia doesn't match) and it repeats the apparently mistaken idea about the celebration being connected to Juno.

12 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

*** g95 2/8 p. 27 A New Name for an Old Orgy ***
In any case, a “saintly” title cannot conceal the unsavory origin of this celebration. Valentine Day is rooted in pagan rituals and is therefore not celebrated by true Christians. 

Again, the information contained in this article amounts to 'maybe its origin is a bit o' this, or a bit o' that.' Too speculative to condemn out-of-hand as a direct replacement for an ancient pagan rite.

Besides,

*** g03 9/22 p. 24 The Piñata—An Ancient Tradition ***
"A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area." 

Why is the Valentine's Day custom not given similar latitude? Shouldn't it be up to every 'true Christian's' conscience as to whether to observe it or not, or to what extent?

11 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

13 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9e.html

Well, this is not for the regular amateur, ...

Yes it is rather long and involved - tl;dr for many, I guess. 

In summary, then (and this bears on the whole approach to critically analyzing and using sources):

"Panbabylonism is now regarded as discredited speculation. The Panbabylonists were/are criticised for their:

(1) Disregard for textual evidence.

(2) Excessive speculation (postulates and assumptions) and absence of rigorous evidence.

(3) Abuse of the argument from analogy.

(4) Wide use of secondary sources.

(5) Wide use of antiquated translations.

(6) Use of a preconceived chronology of Babylonian civilization.

(7) Uncritically argued ideas about an alleged Babylonian "Weltanschauung [world view] (i.e., astral philosophy)."

(8) Inability to provide any directly supporting statements contained in texts (i.e., the Panbabylonists could only argue their tenets were implied in widely divergent material).

(9) Overstressing "parallels" and similarities.

(10) Far-fetched interpretations and combinations."

- Gary D. Thompson

(Hislop comes to mind and he is indeed mentioned among the proponents of the panbabylonian mindset further down in the article.)

11 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I like Queen Esther's approach

St. Valentine wouldn't be spoken about in the Bible because he existed in the 3rd century CE, long after the last book of the Bible was written. And the celebration of e.g. wedding anniversaries, baby showers, baptism gifts, and end-of-the-pioneer-year parties aren't mentioned in the Bible either. 

5 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

Babylonian Deities.

After the death of Nimrod, the Babylonians reasonably would have been inclined to hold him in high regard as the founder and builder and first king of their city and as the organizer of the original Babylonian Empire.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001732#h=9

The Insight book entry continues:

"Tradition has it that Nimrod died a violent death. Since the god Marduk (Merodach) was regarded as the founder of Babylon, it has been suggested by some that Marduk represents the deified Nimrod. However, the opinions of scholars as to the identification of deities with specific humans are quite varied." [Emphasis mine.]

Are traditions, suggestions by some and varied opinions about identifications solid bases to conclude anything?

5 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

Origin of Gods and Goddesses. 
The striking similarity readily observable when comparing the gods and goddesses of ancient peoples can hardly be attributed to chance. Concerning this, J. Garnier writes: “Not merely Egyptians, Chaldeans, Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans, but also the Hindus, the Buddhists of China and of Thibet, the Goths, Anglo-Saxons, Druids, Mexicans and Peruvians, the Aborigines of Australia, and even the savages of the South Sea Islands, must have all derived their religious ideas from a common source and a common centre. Everywhere we find the most startling coincidences in rites, ceremonies, customs, traditions, and in the names and relations of their respective gods and goddesses.”—The Worship of the Dead, London, 1904, p. 3.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001732#h=6

Notice who one of the sources is:

Do Wilkinson, Rawlinson and others indisputably prove that all civilizations' religious systems have a common origin? I suggest Hislop's book is consulted for references (he does cite these two authors and their works may be viewable online) to see if they do indeed support this conclusion. 

However, regarding the once-popular concept of panbabylonianism (common origin for all religions and cultures), please see 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism 

and 

http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9e.html

However, this is a sidebar to the subject of whether St. Valentine's Day is any way related to the worship of Nimrod.

Thanks for tracking it down, JW Insider.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

[Golden Age quote]

... and The Two Babylons, by Alexander
Hyslop, an English clergyman. The last named
book is specially interesting in its revelations,
not only on the subject of Christmas,
but also on other holidays and feast days now
so popular.

Ah. Therefore, we can dismiss any information culled from this source as unreliable.

On 2/7/2017 at 2:09 PM, Bible Speaks said:

[The catholic.org quote]

According to English 18th-century antiquarians Alban Butler and Francis Douce, Valentine's Day was most likely created to overpower the pagan holiday, Lupercalia.

Any claims from centuries-old works should be treated with caution. It's wise to check their sources, if they've provided any, and see if scholarship has moved forward since that time with new information. If no sources are given, then it's prudent to cross-check with current findings and/or take what the antiquarian author says with a barrel of salt.

The work alluded to by Francis Douce is an 1807 commentary on Shakespeare's plays. It's in the discussion of Hamlet that Douce explains the background to Ophelia's reference to 'Valentine' and links it to Lupercalia.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/50228/50228-h/50228-h.htm (1839 ed.) - p. 470f.

He says it used to be a festival in honor of Pan and Juno, "the latter deity was named februata, februalis, and februlla." I can't find reputable corroboration for Juno being called these names. For a start, Juno gave the month June its name, not February, so how is she associated with rites in February? Some research on the purification festival of Februa or the god Februus might be useful.

Douce did name his source for some of his information: Alban Butler. The relevant work must be The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Other Principal Saints, Vol II, published 1756–1759.

https://archive.org/stream/livesfathersmar09butlgoog#page/n149/mode/2up/search/Valentine (1866 ed.) - p. 135.

It's a short piece, and Butler doesn't provide any sources for this comment:

"To abolish the heathen's lewd superstitious custom of boys drawing the names of Girls in honour of their goddess Februta Juno, on the 15th of this month, several zealous pastors substituted the names of saints on billets given on this day."

Again we see the (mistaken?) Juno association, but Lupercalia isn't mentioned at all in the 'Saint Valentine' entry. And who were these pastors? More research is need to ascertain this story's veracity.

As for The Golden Age's assessment of Valentine's Day, its sources are unknown, uncredited, and therefore unverifiable.

Regarding all the 'other names for Nimrod,' I'd like to ask Bible Speaks again:

What is/are your source(s) for these name associations to Nimrod?

I hope it's OK to ask you some questions.

On 2/7/2017 at 5:29 PM, Bible Speaks said:

Cupid, Lupercus, St Valentines all listed under NIMROD'S NAMES

I'd like to ask:

What is/are the source(s) of your information?

I see you've referenced The Golden Age article, but do you know where the magazine got its information from?