Witness

I believe that many things (maybe not all) that Jack posts here, are comments and posts from exjw forums. What words you read may not necessarily be owned by Jack.

You are so right.

What? I'm sorry YOU are wrong. There was a time when the organization clearly taught that the Body of Christ is comprised of the anointed ones. It can still be found on their web page. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021176 I might be wrong, but it could be that Allen is back.

Arauna, you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins. 1 Pet 4:17 If this is the case, the organization is no better than any other. But if it truly was “Jehovah’s organization”, it should be better, shouldn’t it. After all, it boasts it is the way to spiritual salvation and “righteousness”. Righteous practices are so far removed from the GB's agenda when it comes to child abuse. God’s WORD judges His anointed people. 2 Pet 3:5-7 Since the GB choose to follow their own “words”, their ordinances concerning child abuse, your scriptures in James aptly applies…to them. 2 Pet 3:10; Jer 23:29 The prophet’s words are not so archaic that they do not apply to God’s people today. Rev 18:4-8

And the organization is sinless? How easy it is for JWs to continually point to the world’s sins and refuse to acknowledge the sins of God’s people. 1 Cor 6:4-8 Whose sins are greater in God’s eyes? The sins of those who claim to worship Him, or of those who don’t? “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.” Jer 4:22 ‘How can you say, "WE ARE WISE, FOR WE HAVE THE LAW OF THE LORD," WHEN ACTUALLY THE LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES HAS HANDLED IT FALSELY?" “The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?” Jer 8:8,9

Excellent statement. It is the "word of God" that lives and imparts power, and discerns the "thoughts and intents of the heart". Heb 4:12 Can the words of men do that? Can men judge another's spiritual outcome through their imposed "words"? The organization does just that. Disfellowshipping, a spiritual "killing", is largely based on organizational doctrine. Rev 13:15 Only God's Word is our judge, as stated in the scripture you supplied. Men's doctrine does not contain life. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Heb 4:13 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:21-23 Do the scriptures say that God's will includes following men's doctrine?

…for they do not practice what they preach”. They were teachers of the law, and it was God’s law that they were not practicing. They had veered away from purely teaching the Word of God, resulting in spiritual immorality. So they, too, were “Jezebels”, who tacked on their own laws and traditions that were to be observed by the people. Prov 30:5,6 “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.” Deut 4:2 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.” 45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.” 46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. The entire time Jesus preached, he told the Jews to “come to me”, which would require leaving a corrupt system of leadership. Matt 11:28 “Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matt 15:14 That system was abandoned by God. Matt 23:38 Jesus taught that he brought fulfillment of the law through his teachings. Matt 5:17-20 If any anointed one fails to lead people to Christ, and instead lead people to themselves and their expectations of obedience to what they say; they too, are “jezebels”. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19-20 Has the GB relaxed the commandments God established with his anointed priesthood? Yes. 2 Chron 13:9; 23:6,7 Does the GB practice justice? No, that is even recognized in the court systems. Do they follow the form of a perfect “religion”? No. Have they been exposed as liars? Yes. Do we have any obligation to adhere to their teachings? No. Jer 23:16 Has their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees? Absolutely not. The reality when following Christ is that an earthly organized structure patterned after any other religion in the world, is not needed to worship God. John 4:24 We can trust Christ and the Father to direct us, if we have faith.

Everyone here is making a lot of “noise”; interpreted as such, depending on which side of the WT fence they stand behind.

You seem to have a lot of mixed feelings about speculation; when its appropriate to speculate, and with whom. And that's okay. One thing you seem sure of though, David Splane is not telling the truth about the "new light" concerning "this generation". Yes, "assumed" in the most wicked sense of the word. Assume - "seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; take as one's right or possession" "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 24:48-51

You're kidding, right?

Isn’t this teaching served on “Jehovah’s rich spiritual table”? Isn’t it based on a principle that is part of the foundation of the organization? 1914? Every teaching on generation revolves around this date, and if anyone verbally rejects this date, they can be disfellowshipped. Partake appreciatively of the spiritual food available only at Jehovah’s table, and you will not be misled by false teachers or wicked spirit forces. w06 11/15 pp. 21-25 “When I go to Christian meetings, conventions, and assemblies and I am able to feast at Jehovah’s spiritual table, this really refreshes me spiritually,” she observes. w02 9/15 pp. 8-9 Can a typical JW distinguish between what is served on “Jehovah’s spiritual table” and what is concocted from the minds of men? Yes, anyone has the right to speculate, but does the GB encourage it? Are you even suppose to “go there” and "speculate" otherwise? Why should we be on guard if someone begins to speculate or to speak critically? 9 We are nearing the outbreak of the great tribulation and the end of this wicked system, so those inspired warnings given in the first century take on greater significance. We definitely do not want to ‘miss the purpose’ of Jehovah’s undeserved kindness and lose out on the promise of everlasting life, be that in heaven or on earth. (2 Cor. 6:1) If ever someone attending our congregation meetings would try to entice us into discussions of personal speculations or critical conversations, we should definitely be on guard." w13 12/15 p. 9

Good to know.

Thanks. I appreciate how you said this! " False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction. Even so, many will follow their immoral ways; and because of what they do, others will speak evil of the Way of truth. In their greed these false teachers will make a profit out of telling you made-up stories. For a long time now their Judge has been ready, and their Destroyer has been wide awake!" 2 Pet 2:1-3

TTH said, "Finally! Something that I can agree with Witness on—assuming that she does not throw good sense completely to the wind. (as she does in other areas)" I get the feeling that you found your eureka and stopped reading my comment at that point. A trait of a good doctor is when he knows he’s gone too far pushing his own agenda and realizes the unfavorable result for doing so. That is the case with my husband’s doctor, who made it clear CT scans will not be used on my husband for whatever reason, in the future. He has the “good sense” to know when to change course. This isn’t the case with your GB, is it. They will pull another wild card from their sleeve – another David Splane with a chart. Will JWs show good sense and finally realize they have been defrauded of truth…for years?

To clarify, each person in our household left the organization for different reasons. Can a disfellowshipped person influence another to lose their “faith” in the organization? Yes; however, my spiritual decisions for leaving are not at all the same reasons why the other three left. And, I was not the first to leave. Each one of us, saw specific flaws in a belief system that caused us to doubt God’s involvement in…hypocrisy, rules applied by men that went against sound reasoning, rules established according to men’s doctrine and not according to scripture. The result is, two in the house have no more belief in God or Christ. One has retained a belief, but struggles in making it a central part of life. The organization’s record of unsound and failed/changed teachings, and failures in shepherding, are generally what bring forth doubt and lack of faith in God and Christ. Each one of these listed, causes spiritual ‘infection’. To think JWs are immune to this, is fallacy. My husband had a CT scan a while back. This was to be beneficial in finding the reason he was sick, by locating and identifying the disease. Yet, the requirement of an iodine contrast which is used to enhance the scan’s ability to detect abnormalities, resulted in severe reactions. The fluid flushed through his veins caused side effects that are still with him two months later. The CT scan had its advantages in targeting the disease, but the harsh reactions he experienced also left its visible mark, since his entire body is covered in large rashes – a form a dermatitis that doctors say needs to be fought with more drugs. We have chosen an alternative route to treat it, using natural remedies. Who would have thought that something routinely prescribed as providing beneficial results, would also produce such harm? Because the WT has targeted and explained a handful of false teachings in religions, the majority of JWs adopt the belief that all WT’s teachings must be fully beneficial, aiding one to recover from say, “christendom’s” lies. Since we know a lie is a lie, and wrong teachings remain wrong teachings, and the organization has had its large share in wrong teachings (lies), a JW’s faith is not immune to experiencing spiritual infection from a bad dose of wrong information (rotten fruit/poisoned waters), accompanying a known truth. God’s word does not condone building our faith on a little truth and a lot of lies. (Matt 12:33,34; Luke 6:43-45) Can you imagine Jesus saying to his apostles, “Oh, go ahead and partake of the leaven of the Pharisees…because they will still produce some truth”? (Matt 16:6,12;7:20; Luke 6:47-49) For the most part, JWs will not notice how they are spiritually infused with paltry waters/teachings that had no advantage in beneficially aiding the growth of one’s faith; unless one is putting faith and trust in an organization. In that case, there is always a promise of good things that men will produce, and which places a bandaid over the 'infection' resulting from bad teachings. (Jer 6:14; Ezek 13:10) Jesus spoke of “living waters” that would be evident in those anointed whom he sends. No side effects, no ‘infections’, but only teachings that build upon teachings, and all are truth. (Matt 10:40,41; John 15:16) “On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard. He said loudly, “Whoever is thirsty must come to me to drink. 38 As Scripture says, ‘Streams of living water will flow from deep within the person who believes in me.’” 39 Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive.” John 7:37-39a Many in the organization are becoming alert and keenly aware of painful results from the absolute “bitter” waters they have been ingesting and seek other means to remedy the resulting effects. In my household there are four examples of how one leaves the WT and pursues relief from spiritual “infection”. Not all of them are on a right path; but neither are those tolerating contaminated waters in the WT. (Jer 23:14-22) If the GB truly adhered themselves to the teachings of Christ, as they say they do, they would undoubtedly, and continually, produce “living waters” - pure, and trustworthy. (John 4:14; 6:63; 2 Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:21,22; Rev 22:17) If excuses are made for their falsehoods, then there is total disregard for the promise Jesus gave us, that he would provide reliable Truth in those whom he sends. (Matt 21:33-45) There would be no need for a persuasive ‘lecture’ about whom we should trust, as Gerrit Losch felt necessary to convey. John 15:5 “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled” Heb 12:14-15 “Bitterness” - acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively:—bitterness. “Defiled” - contaminate The root of the “trouble” and divisions caused among disgruntled members who leave the WT, falls on the shoulders of the GB, and the elder body that dispenses the GB's “waters”. (Rom 16:17;Jude 1:17-19; Rev 8:10,11; 13:11,12,16,17; 17:15) If we continue to apathetically believe we can spiritually thrive on WT’s infected waters, then our spiritual outcome falls on our shoulders. (Heb 4:12; Rev 18:4-8) Of interest - " Locust - Scorpions " / " Abaddon " / " fallen star " / " Wormwood " Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot

I think Srecko was referring to a higher school to learn a trade. Yet, they have also greatly encouraged young ones (men and women) just graduating from high school to become pioneers, which would not allow much time to attend a trade school.

I'm using a spork from now on. This gives me half a chance to stay sane and fit.

I felt I needed to catch the speaker's words; they were, “apostates do not drift away from the truth”. In my household, there are four individuals who use to live the life of a JW; me, a widely known disfellowshipped “apostate”, my husband who is not disfellowshipped but never hesitated to reveal the organization’s hypocrisy to the elders while still “in”, my son and daughter-in-law who eventually quit going to the meetings, and are not disfellowshipped but shunned by all JWs they may happen to see. My daughter-in-law’s parents refuse to visit their daughter and grandchildren. Out of the four of us, I am the only disfellowshipped vocal one, the other three just walked away, yet all of us are treated the same. Because of the act of shunning, wouldn’t you say that all four in our house are considered, “apostates”?

TTH: "There are actually two men whose name is a type of tree. Both are pseudonyms, the specific trees are different, and one was chosen as a tribute for the other. I think the two have been confused with one another here." I had in mind the Redwood tree, which is related to the Cedar, and both are in the family of the Bald Cypress. But...why must we speak in code anyway?

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased. Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. It is as you said, “But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make” Should any noise made by an exjw be judged as someone cooking up a brew of lies in "Satan's kitchen"? Do you remember what fell into his hands? "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse". It explains his obsession.

The thing about the man whose last name is a type of a tree, both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs. And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation. I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth. Those who inflict abuse, are the mentally diseased ones.

Especially since their "record" shows them to be "false prophets".

"Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?" Luke 16:11 Greek meaning for "unrighteous" - unjust; by extension wicked; by implication, treacherous; specially, heathen:—unjust, unrighteous. Now, your WT quote again, deceptively explaining the meaning for unrighteous riches as physical, earthly - "Only Jehovah God and his Son can receive someone into the heavenly Kingdom or the Paradise on earth under that Kingdom. We should diligently cultivate friendship with them by using what material riches we have in supporting Kingdom interests. Our everlasting future will thus be ASSURED when gold, silver, and other material riches fail or perish." You believe that your use of wicked, treacherous, heathen, unjust...material "riches"/"treasures", to support the organization's "Kingdom interests", will ASSURE YOU ETERNAL LIFE in the Kingdom, where "righteousness" will dwell. 2 Pet 3:13 "Who can bring what is pure... (eternal life in the "righteous" Kingdom of God from the impure? ("heathen, wicked" treasure having its source in the world of Satan) No one!" Job 14:4

God never had plans for a financial system to exist in this world. Mankind was plunged into darkness because of Adam and Eve's sin. The "ruler of this world" has aided in our development of a financial system. God has offered us "riches" in Jesus Christ that we either accept or discard for earthly riches instead. Eph 2:1-5 It depends on the cravings of the individual. Tell those who have the riches of this world not to be arrogant and not to place their confidence in anything as uncertain as riches. Instead, they should place their confidence in God who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. 1 Tim 6:17 “Listen! Whoever is thirsty, come to the water! Whoever has no money can come, buy, and eat! Come, buy wine and milk. You don’t have to pay; it’s free! 2 Why do you spend money on what cannot nourish you and your wages on what does not satisfy you? Listen carefully to me: Eat what is good, and enjoy the best foods. 3 Open your ears, and come to me! Listen so that you may live! I will make an everlasting promise to you— the blessings I promised to David." Isa 55:1-3 “Come to me, all who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest. 29 Place my yoke over your shoulders, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble. Then you will find rest for yourselves 30 because my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matt 11:28,29

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities "As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." Jesus' words apply today, just as when he said them 2000 years ago: Jesus told her, “Believe me. A time is coming when you Samaritans won’t be worshiping the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. 22 You don’t know what you’re worshiping. We Jews know what we’re worshiping, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 Indeed, the time is coming, and it is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. The Father is looking for people like that to worship him. 24 God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21-24 There is still no need for an earthly "mountainlike organization". Do you know what you are worshiping?