what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?

[Anna]

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”  Matt 28:19,20

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

"On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" 

So you think saying "in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy spirit" has more value than asking "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" ?

What makes you think one has to repeat those exact words as quoted in Matt 28:19,20? Would that mean also that we have to repeat the exact words at Matt 6:9-14?

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

"Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"

This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian. Also, it is only fair to ask this question so that there can be no misunderstanding.

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

Are the above baptism questions “teaching” those to be baptized, observance toward all the things that Christ commanded us?

I don't see anything to the contrary....

[JW Insider]

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

Baptize In the name of these three - the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Is this what the organization does?

"On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" 

"Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"

I think that Anna is on the right track as to how Jehovah's Witnesses understand the first question to be the near equivalent of the supposed "formula" in Matthew 28:19. And therefore, the primary meaning of the second question is merely a re-iteration of the desire to be a dedicated Christian associated with the world-wide brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses.

9 hours ago, Anna said:

What makes you think one has to repeat those exact words as quoted in Matt 28:19,20?

Although, I agree that it is not a "formula," I wonder what makes all the speakers at baptism talks (and/or administrators of Witness baptisms) around the world think they need to treat the Watchtower's words as an exact formula, and repeat them exactly as they have been translated by the Watch Tower Society into their local language?

Witness, I agree with you that it's not just a coincidence that the the Father, Son, and holy spirit are mentioned in Matthew, and that Jehovah, Jesus and the spirit-directed organization are mentioned in the Watch Tower's version of a baptismal formula.

We have already discussed how the expression "spirit-directed organization" is not meant to be limited to the earthly, visible part Jehovah's universal organization. That's from an overall doctrinal perspective. But in this particular case, I would have to agree that the addition was evidently with the earthly part of the organization in mind. I say this because I had learned that the addition was done for legal purposes.

I don't mean that the overall purpose was legal instead of spiritual, but that the legal ability for the earthly organization to remove persons from its membership roles without fear of lawsuits or repercussions has become an important practical means to keep the earthly organization clean. (Eoin and others have already begin discussing this.)

The idea that Jehovah directs the earthly, visible organization (through his spirit) is often stated in the Watchtower as integral to the idea of our dedication. I won't deny that most Witnesses are thinking primarily and sometimes only about the Watchtower Society when they think of the words: "spirit-directed organization." The idea reaches back to well before the "FDS"/"GB." For many years they were so blatant, they were almost embarrassing. The old version of the "Kingdom Ministry" when it was called "Bulletin" and "Informant" would sometimes include statements like, Brother Rutherford has been appointed by the Lord, and not following instructions coming from him would be like disobeying the Lord.

I remember another one, but can't remember which issue where it said basically that if the Lord says that pioneers should make "x" hours per month, then that's what the Lord wants. (Ironic in that the hourly quotas change every few years.) In more recent times, the idea is more subtle, but ubiquitous, as the following types of examples can be multiplied hundreds of times over:

*** w06 7/1 p. 19 They Delight to Do God’s Will ***
Graduates Andrew and Anna said: “We dedicated our life to Jehovah. We made a promise to Jehovah to do anything he asks of us. It just so happens that Jehovah has asked us to go to Cameroon, Africa.”

*** w01 1/15 p. 9 “A Masterpiece of a Project” ***
“The ‘Photo-Drama’ was a masterpiece of a project, when we consider the small number of Bible Students and the proportionately small amount of finances available. It really had Jehovah’s spirit behind it!”

*** w00 10/1 p. 29 Blessed With a Special Heritage ***
The two months we spent in Patterson as Paul received training was the highlight of our life so far. Observing Jehovah’s earthly organization up close reaffirmed a conviction passed on to me as part of my precious spiritual heritage: This is indeed God’s organization. [Italics in original 10/1/2000 Watchtower]

The legal reason was similar to the reason that the name "Jehovah's witnesses" was changed to "Jehovah's Witnesses" in the early 1970's. The first version without a capital "w" was purposely ambiguous, but that ambiguity could be taken advantage of in international copyright or intentional or misleading identification with those of similar names. The "Bible students" under Russell had similar problems with the various "Bible student" associations. "Allen Smith" has pointed out examples, in some of his posts. The split-offs of both Russell-styled Bible Students and Rutherford-styled Bible Students (and even Jehovah's Witnesses in a few cases) have been springing up for years. There has been a long-standing problem with dozens of such splinter groups and self-styled prophets in Africa, for example, that make use of the Watchtower publications as a foundation. Rutherford's doctrines have even been traced as a factor in the growth of the Black Muslim [Nation of Islam] movement in the United States.

The "apostasy of 1980-1983" became a catalyst to finally adding the reference to a specific organization into the "formula." When I was baptized, this was not included, and the Watchtower had even explained why it should not be included.

 

[Witness]

JWI  - “The "apostasy of 1980-1983" became a catalyst to finally adding the reference to a specific organization into the "formula." When I was baptized, this was not included, and the Watchtower had even explained why it should not be included.”

Here is an example of why:

“Jehovah is the giver of life. "For with you is the source of life." (Ps. 36:9) We cannot keep everlasting life in view without staying close to Jehovah, the source of life.... This is what we mean when we dedicate our lives to Jehovah. We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicated ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah.”  WT 10/1/66 pp. 603,4

Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."

With this inclusion for legal purposes (a fact I agree on), the statement is being made that one is not a Christian unless one agrees to both questions.  This plays out in Anna’s comment:

This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian.

A “doctrine of men” has infiltrated our commitment and desire to be spiritually cleansed through the Word of God – our only guide.  Mark 7:7; Gal 1:10

John 17:17 - Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

1 Cor 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Baptism questions prior to 1985 - 5/15/70 Wt p. 309

 Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?

On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain? 

This, Anna, is an example of baptizing in the “name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.

 

 

 

 

 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Rutherford's doctrines have even been traced as a factor in the growth of the Black Muslim [Nation of Islam] movement in the United States.

Interesting. Didn't know that.

[Anna]

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

With this inclusion for legal purposes (a fact I agree on), the statement is being made that one is not a Christian unless one agrees to both questions.  This plays out in Anna’s comment:

This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian.

Well no, that's not how I meant it at all. I apologize if my comment has mislead you. In a multi religious world, one has to be clear which religion one is identifying with. In the case of "Christianity", that was simple in the 1st. Century, there was only one. But of course now there are many "Christian" denominations (therefor one has to specify which one). So I was merely trying to parallel a situation whereby one was going to make it clear which religion one belonged to, and yes, for legal purposes.

[Anna]

31 minutes ago, Witness said:

Baptism questions prior to 1985 - 5/15/70 Wt p. 309

 Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?

On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain? 

Just a wordier version of this: "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" 

The questions you quoted above are discussed in detail with those considering baptism.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Interesting. Didn't know that.

It's not one of the most popular bits of Watch Tower trivia.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicated ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah.”  WT 10/1/66 pp. 603,4

I was going through the catechism in the book "Your Word Is a Lamp to My Foot" (80 questions) when this article came out. I wasn't baptized until the next summer, but this is an important point to remember, even for those baptized under the 1985 (post-apostasy) questions. The fact that the new question replaced spirit-guided Word the Bible with spirit-guided organization still does not mean that we are dedicating ourselves to that organization, though. The idea is that our personal dedication vow to Jehovah and Jesus is what makes us a Christian. We then recognize that we are using this same opportunity to confess a faith that aligns us as members of a particular religion. It is part of our dedication in that we expect to make use of the congregation to keep our faith continually aligned through our association with other Christians, being built up and encouraged by their examples, opportunities to do good especially toward those related to us in the faith, and the discipline and reminders to remain on a righteous path and active in our ministry through the examples of overseers, elders and other servants who act as shepherds in the congregation by imitating the example of Jesus Christ in their own lives. The congregation is vital to Christians, and we recognize our best opportunity among fellow Witnesses. But we do need to be careful not to be confused about our dedication and begin believing that we are dedicated to the organization or to the structure and activity or people within it. Our dedication is to God and Christ.

[Witness]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The fact that the new question replaced spirit-guided Word the Bible with spirit-guided organization still does not mean that we are dedicating ourselves to that organization, though.

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

Even though this quote is in harmony with your words, is it true? 

Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are “dedicated” to doing God’s will, which includes every necessary item on the list of running an organization.  This is their dedication; without such dedication, salvation apparently cannot be achieved as the below statement clarifies:

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established." KM 11/’90 p 1 

For Anna also:

"A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit." Watchtower 1955 Jul 1 p.411

Yet, this is exactly what they do.

Unless you are there at each baptism to warn people NOT to dedicate themselves to an earthly organization, when they agree to accept the identifying mark as a Jehovah’s Witness, they will; and in doing so, are committing idolatry.  This is jeopardizing the salvation of millions; not building a congregation up, but tearing it down.  The organization becomes the idol necessary to receive salvation.

Dedication is a commitment of faith, a trust in something.

One valuable lesson we learn is that we need to trust God’s organization. bt chap. 13 pp. 101-107

“But those who trust in idols, who say to images, 'You are our gods,' will be turned back in utter shame” Isa 42:17

“The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.”  Acts 17;24,25

The need of legal protection for an organization, foregoes one’s ability to commit themselves whole souled to God and Christ. 

We are to be no part of the world just as Christ was no part of the world.  John 15:19

Mark of the Beast  http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/mark-of-beast.html

 

 

 

[Anna]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's not one of the most popular bits of Watch Tower trivia.

I can see why!

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, Witness said:

Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are “dedicated” to doing God’s will, which includes every necessary item on the list of running an organization.  This is their dedication; without such dedication, salvation apparently cannot be achieved as the below statement clarifies:

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established." KM 11/’90 p 1 

I see a danger in misunderstanding, because it is so easy to be idolaters without thinking much about it. This goes for idolizing money, materialism, the so-called American dream, sports and entertainment heroes, worldly ideas we try to copy, and any organization that we begin to feel we must have faith in. Jehovah tells us not to put our trust in princes in whom no salvation belongs, and we are not to be surprised that only God is really the only one to be found "true" and every man may be found a "liar."

If anyone takes the words from the KM above to mean ONLY Jehovah's earthly organization, as identified "generally" with the Watch Tower Society, then they are making a mistake. It's true that we must identify ourselves with Jehovah's heavenly organization, and we expect an earthly component, even today. And if we honestly feel that we can best serve his heavenly organization through our association with fellow Witnesses, then we will need to associate with an earthly component to continue serving in part of Jehovah's heavenly organization, and that's what's essential to our salvation, because meeting with others shows we have a desire to help others. (Hebrews 10:24,25) Christianity is social by definition. In effect, we are introducing our Bible students to this particular earthly organization as an option that they may or may not believe is a part of Jehovah's overall organization. When we are directing them to a particular organization, we are taking the lead, and they may or may not imitate our faith if they like what they see:

(Hebrews 13:7) 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.

Personally, I am very comfortable among Witnesses, and I would not be comfortable associating with non-JW denominations that I am familiar with. I am happy to introduce Bible believers to my friends and brothers among the Witnesses. But I don't limit Jehovah's ability to work with any and all who serve him in any place on earth, under any circumstances they find themselves in. I personally believe that the wheat and weeds grow together inside and outside of earthly organizations, because it's not the earthly organization through which Christians are identified by Jehovah and Jesus. It's, in effect, only our heart and heart-motivated actions that identify us.

We sometimes say that "by their fruits you will recognize them" is a reference to the true "organization." But, of course, it's how individual Christians are identified. But all Christians whose circumstances allow it, should seek and find the most appropriate association of Christian brothers and sisters that best reflects the ideals of the first century congregation in the circumstances of the twenty-first century. If the Watch Tower based organization(s) were somehow dissolved, or became totally corrupted from a material point of view, then we should still be able to continue serving as Christians among ourselves, and even among other groups of people who want to be Christians like us, too.

If we have used our opportunities for Christian association and encouragement during our "favorable season" to refine our hearts and minds, and grow in love and faith, then we will always stay motivated to do the right things (morality, good works, sharing our faith). No obstacle can separate us from the love of Jehovah and his Son. Even if we temporarily felt alone, we would have comfort knowing that we are still part of an invisible brotherhood that Jehovah recognizes -- other sheep around the earth who recognize the voice of their shepherd Jesus. Even when Elijah was sure he was the only one left serving the true God, Jehovah told him that there were actually 7,000 people who hadn't turned the knee to Baal. Jehovah sees a visible brotherhood even where we can't see it.

(Romans 11:2-6) . . .Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer through works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness.

 

 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Even though the Watchtower “NEVER” acknowledged, endorsed, or promoted any such organizations and their teachings? they could NOT foresee how their publications were going to be used or presented by others, good or bad, as it is done here continuously. So, it’s not a “Watchtower” trivia tidbit, but an outrageous fabrication.

Thanks for the background information.

I never thought the WT endorsed or promoted anything like that, and neither did JWI I'm sure. This is why I never bothered asking about details as I gathered this was something opposers would have been promulgating, and frankly I am not interested as it is basically the same old, same old. It is still WT trivia though, not in the sense that it itself is trivial, but it really is not important, because as you say, it's just an outrageous fabrication.