Paul's Letter to the Galatians and the Struggle for Doctrinal Purity

[Manuel Boyet Enicola]

I fully agree with doctrinal unity. But uniformity? Mmmm, creation shows us to leave room for variability. 

[Srecko Sostar]

25 minutes ago, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

I fully agree with doctrinal unity. But uniformity? Mmmm, creation shows us to leave room for variability. 

WTJWorg aka GB has no "doctrinal unity" going back 140 years until today. Nor does today's composition of the "Main Ecclesial  Body" aka GB, which leads JWs all over the world, show "unity of doctrine". Every now and then they "abandon, reformulate or clarify" the previous "firmly established Biblical Truth".

But that's why GB makes an extraordinary effort to create and maintain "uniformity".

[Pudgy]

Bingo!

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Believers exhibit, with general features of resemblance, considerable personal differences;

Yes, there is that diversity among JWs.
In my many years of association with JWs, I encountered individuals who liked to have fun in a society where a lot of alcoholic beverages were consumed.
There was also a competitive spirit when the JW brothers met to play football.
Now I come across individuals who make contact with ex-JWs despite the general ban on contacting ex-members.

In one video from the ex-Mormons, they spoke highly of the unity that was seen in immediately encountering the hospitality of like-minded people, Mormons, in other countries. This is a significant characteristic of JWs as well. It was enough to say you are a JW and you would be accepted by almost every other JW anywhere in the world. This is a positive aspect of "unity", beyond any doubt.
But this example only proves that "the truth" is not only found among JWs. Here, Mormons have the same kind of "truth" about fellowship and unity, and I believe other religious communities as well.

[Srecko Sostar]

11 minutes ago, George88 said:

Are you suggesting that there's an issue with drinking alcohol without getting intoxicated? It's important to recognize that people have different alcohol tolerances, and individuals need to be aware of their limits. While one individual may be able to comfortably consume 6 beers without feeling impaired, another person might feel impaired with just consuming 2. There is no specific standard as you are suggesting.

Yes, the concept of "free will" can be applied here as well, related to setting benchmarks and standards, eg a person's weight and percentage of alcohol. If we want to be realistic, all alcohol is an intoxicant. Tobacco is an intoxicant, as are some other types of plants that some people take for "mood". Some intoxicants are legal and others are illegal.
I know some JWs were bothered when some other JWs could drink a lot. Whose "free will" should we "silence"? Those who drink a lot because "you can't see on them" that they drank a lot? Or those whose conscience is offended when they see others drinking a lot?

22 minutes ago, George88 said:

What problem do you have with people having fun? Are you now going to complain about how witnesses, eat, sleep and work?

None. No.

23 minutes ago, George88 said:

I frequently engage in conversations with former witnesses, and there is no issue until they start imposing their uninformed biblical beliefs. If you haven't noticed, I'm doing that with you. Disprove it? Therefore, your claim of a "ban" holds no truth and is therefore baseless.

If you remember, there is plenty of information about the official position of WTJWorg which prohibits that kind of communication. You and the like are a good example of how "doctrinal unity" does not influence some individuals to act "uniformly". lol

26 minutes ago, George88 said:

Could you please explain how a sheep could coexist with a pack of wolves without becoming their prey?

So isn't that already explained?
Even in the 1st century, Jesus said that the wolves were in his flock.

[Juan Rivera]

@Many Miles You’ve asked a very good question at the beginning of this thread, having to do with a litmus test or limit of obedience.  

Something along the lines of: Does the duty of submission to those taking the lead carry with it an implicit understanding that the individual must obey his conscience if a delegated authority's call for obedience conflicts with the Good News and revealed will of God?

Yes. As Jehovah’s Witnesses we have a duty to hold on to what has been given. In this way we come to know what those taking the lead cannot possibly say, and if an overseer including a Governing Body member were to say “x” that would be contrary to the Good News and Faith, it should not be accepted, just as Paul teaches in Galatians 1:8. So the Congregation is not requiring anyone to give more obedience to the those taking the lead than Paul did. The duty to submit to present interpretive authority is not incompatible with a duty to hold to what has previously been given; the two duties go together, and neither nullifies the other. 

We can get into the details and specific examples and application on how this understanding works in real life, but this is my position. I think in these conversations it’s important take into account the greater context of Galatians and Christianity. The pages of the NT do not show Jesus establishing a religion of the book, rather, they show Him constituting a new Israel. The one and only earthly program Jesus seems to have set in motion is the establishment of a Congregation. So we don't try to approach Scripture as if his Body, the Congregation has no role. As I have mentioned, the Congregation Jesus established was a new supernatural society capable of growing and adapting within human society, across cultural and linguistic boundaries. In keeping with the divine pedagogical pattern of cradling revelation within a unified historic society (the protective womb of the Hebrew society & culture), he transformed old Israel, by establishing a worldwide society by which the divine communication might travel to the ends of the earth while retaining its identity and integrity by developing within the bonds of the Congregation. 

[Pudgy]

Pedogological … hmmmm…. that about Nebuchchafnezzer’s toes?

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, George88 said:

So, are you implying that witnesses should have no problem with the use of illegal substances? Is it your intention to deliberately expose witnesses to potential arrest?

No.

4 hours ago, George88 said:

How many times must one clarify the significance of personal choice and circumstance? What's the connection between open dialogue and personal preference?

Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to an unrepentant individual, even after making persistent efforts to convince a closed-minded person that there is still an opportunity for redemption? Once someone has firmly resolved to defy God, it becomes their predicament. Even if an individual repents, but persists in criticizing and blaming others for the regrettable decisions they made, it is inconsequential to God what they attempt to conceal from the community.

Many ex-JWs still believe in God and the Bible. What they did was simply change their religion, which they have every right to do because of their free will. For that they should not be declared apostates by WTJWorg. 

Do ex-JWs have free will to talk about their former religion and what happened there? Yes, because it belongs to the freedom of expression and opinion. Are ex-JWs free to argue criticism with help of WTJWorg official literature, and other digital material? Yes, because that is the best way to expose the deception.

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

As I have mentioned, the Congregation Jesus established was a new supernatural society capable of growing and adapting within human society, across cultural and linguistic boundaries.

Supernatural society?

If they were to claim that Jesus came from heaven in the form of a human child, this could mean that his birth from a human mother was "supernatural".
If they were to claim that the man Jesus established a new society consisting of human imperfect individuals whom he found living at the same time as him, then I see nothing "supernatural" about it.

This same JWs "supernatural society" does such stupid things that it nullifies all the effects of the "supernatural".

[Srecko Sostar]

34 minutes ago, George88 said:

Everyone has the right to express their thoughts and opinions freely. Unfortunately, I have witnessed cases where individuals were silenced in the past for speaking their minds. So, I am curious to know if you have ever spoken out against such censorship since it seems that people often find disgruntled individuals more captivating to listen to.

Is your criticism informed by a deep understanding of the Bible or is it based on a flawed interpretation? Keep in mind that the Bible serves as the Watchtower's constitution, making it the foundation for everyday Christian life. Therefore, any critique of the Watchtower's application of biblical principles is essentially a critique of God's teachings.

Ask yourself this: will God be on your side? If not, why do you think witnesses should support you?

Whose "deception" should be revealed: those who oppose God, or those whose voices are being silenced because people refuse to acknowledge the truth by supporting that deception of flawed individuals who are expressing a false narrative and interpretation to the public?

WTJWorg is a Legal Body, registered under the existing laws of a particular country. They are obliged to work according to something called The Charter.

The thesis with the Bible as if it is the Watchtower's Constitution is a story for naive people. WTJWorg is a company, a so-called humanitarian organization.

Christianity, as a movement or type of worship based on the teachings of Jesus, is not as people today think when speaking about humanitarian organization. Although some teachings of Jesus Christ can be considered to have a humanitarian character, it is still something different from what today falls under the activity of a humanitarian organizations.

Today, humanitarian organizations deal with health, cultural, social, sport and humanitarian services.
In the narrower sense, humanitarian organizations, foundations and citizen associations were created on the idea of philanthropic assistance to people in need, the elderly, the poor, the disabled, widows, children without one or both parents, and the like.

WTJWrg is far from such forms of humanitarian activities. If it helps in any of these things, then it is aimed primarily at his own members, and helping people of other religious affiliations is a big exception and appears only as part of an additional action, by the way/incidentally, when primarily helping his own members is provided.

Does WTJWorg organize public kitchens, or shelters for women victims of violence or for the homeless? Not. So WTJWorg is not that kind of humanitarian organization.
Does WTJWorg run an education program for learning to read and write? Yes, if you study the Bible and JWs publications with them. Otherwise, no.

[Pudgy]

18 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Does WTJWorg run an education program for learning to read and write? Yes, if you study the Bible and JWs publications with them. Otherwise, no.

Hmmmm …. good point!

[Srecko Sostar]

58 minutes ago, George88 said:

Keep in mind that the Bible serves as the Watchtower's constitution, making it the foundation for everyday Christian life.

Which parts of the Bible are the so-called Constitution for WTJWorg?

Perhaps the one from Matthew 18 where it says that the entire congregation participates in "legal proceedings" against offenders from among their ranks?

Why then does WTJWorg determine guilt/innocence by its own 3-elder procedure? This is a gross violation of the article from the "Constitution".