Evacuated

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And it wouldn't be misleading only if we wanted to be misled. It's just plain misleading

I suppose the word "misleading" is what I balk at.

Miriam Webster defines this as: "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit"

I do not think this is the case in respect of the last days or any portion thereof. I think there have been and are speculative expectations regarding the proximity of Jehovah's intervention and that some get carried along with them, embroidering them even. But not all have, or are, even now. An "are we there yet?" mindset is not  that peculiar among humans who are expecting good things to happen. It is just a consequence of impatience and and a bit of tangible reward focus thrown in.

People who need and want to give up smoking tobacco may be reinforced in this by monetary or health considerations, even peer pressure. The more noble reasons of being undefiled and whole-souled before Jehovah may take time to get their proper place in motivation. But who cares?.... as long as they put the filthy habit behind them.

So if people do more for Jehovah due to an exaggerated spur of expectation... who cares? Everybody wins in the end. Right motive takes time to develop as Paul made clear at Php. 3:15 and 1Cor. 9:17.

And for those who now feel they gave up too much for too little in their serving Jehovah? Perhaps a little more meditating on what Jehovah and Jesus gave up for them, and what exactly they gave it up for would not go amiss.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And I couldn't say, as @Outta Here indicated, that you were only misled because you wanted to be misled.

Know what you  mean, but there is a problem with the analogy. Your illustration has $100.00  as the main objective. So you gain nothing until the delivery of that prize. So the seeming delay in receiving this becomes a problem as you actually have nothing until that sum is repaid, in fact you are out of pocket, in a negative position.

That is not the case with true Christians. Once their relationship with Jehovah has been restored through Christ, they have something of infinite, immediate value. They are not out of pocket while they await payment of a debt. So as the psalmist said at Ps.119:165 "Abundant peace belongs to those who love your law, nothing can make them stumble". That is current, not future. 

Those who appreciate what Jehovah has done for them are not disappointed because some enthusiastic speculation on when they are going to get a future reward doesn't come to fruition. Neither are they carried along euphorically in some sort of "self"-sacrificing display of piety, only to wish they hadn't offered a bull when they could have got by quite acceptably with a goat. When the self-expected reward doesn't appear, they feel cheated as if they were owed something by God as a payment for services rendered.

Nope, all I see is the age old parental type care displayed when children are told "Stop playing with that stick, you'll poke your own or your sister's eye out!" Exaggeration sure, but compliance will definitely protect someone's eye. Don't blame your parents for trying to protect you from harm. 🙂

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The expression "final part of the last days" or "last days of the last days" is misleading

Only to those who want to be misled. It is, at worst, "ambiguous" to a thinking person. "Last days of what?" is the first question that comes to mind.

I see no issue with premature expectation when it comes to the end of this system of things. It seems to have always been a feature of true worshipers that their expectation of Jehovah's action to cleanse the earth brought the event closer in their minds than in fact, see Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6. In fact this attitude is even encouraged, 2Pet.3:11-12, although of course there is balancing counsel too as at 2Thess.2:1-2.

We have a very clear punctuation mark in the progression of this time known as "the last days"  if that is what we want, in the form of the destruction of false religion Rev.17:16-17. Really, that event will be the herald of "the last days of the last days" of the time leading up to Armageddon. There will be no ambiguity when that event occurs, although the "great tribulation" itself has no specifically defined duration despite indicators being that it will be relatively short.

Habbakuk's words are timely,(Hab.2:3) "Keep yourselves in expectation of it!" And Romans 8:19 highlights a similar attitude of "eager expectation". This is an identifying feature of true worshippers according to Heb 11.  Spiritual drowsiness and sleep, along with "upturned noses", characterises those described at 2Pet.3:3-4 by way of contrast.

15 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

For something to have a final part, it must have had a beginning and a middle part.

Arbitrary nonsense.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But you and @Outta Here seem to miss the point. We are in the Last days, yes, BUT, we do not know if we are in the Final part of the Last days. 

Whatever part of the "last days" we are in, it has to be the final part.....because we "do not know the day or the hour". So if we are missing the point, then it must be because there isn't one being made....

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And why do they put so much emphasis on the "final part of the last days"

Um....it always is isn't it? If we are in the last days and there is an end, and some of the last days have gone already, and keep going day by day, then we must always be... in the final part....No? As long as we are alive that is of course.

These kind of discussions remind me of what Jesus said about his return to execute judgement:

Luke 21:35: "For it WILL come upon ALL those dwelling on the face of the WHOLE earth"

So for me, discussions painting scenarios about the correct procession of events and who has the right dates and where we are in the stream of time are at the same time interesting and tedious, depending on the ingenuity and originality of the proposer.

Early on, prior to 1975, an old brother (Glaswegian) said to me, "Ye'll hear a lot of talk about when things will or will not happen. Take my word for it laddie, your Armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah. Stick with it!"

And on another occasion around the same time, 1974ish, an old sarcastic, worldly friend said to me that he looked forward to meeting me in 1976 so he could laugh in my face over another failed prediction. My response? "I sincerely hope you will"

Date arguments to me are basically... Quixotic.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Well I had thought that from 1975 until 2015. 40 years in the wilderness.

Must still be a few lingering on!

Maybe Jehovah is allowing time for a faithless "generation" to die off before entering the promised land???

31 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

most people back in the 60's and 70's were very generous with their donations to the organisation.

They are even more generous now.

12 minutes ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

you had to paid full price for the books.

The "full price" for the books was abysmally little.

And it is still all profit to those that freeloaded, and to those that did not it would be mostly profit....if they go selling them of course.

21 minutes ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

i believe people are more wary about religion organisations... 

And even more wary of religious people if they have any sense.

On 5/22/2020 at 4:06 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

With whatever time I have left, it is going to be my life's challenge, so I bid each of you so long, and hope you stay closer to Jehovah than I did. 

Don't know if you will have time or inclination to read posts at present James. I have enjoyed some of our exchanges, especially when you have shared some technical insights, or glimpses of your anarchic sense of humor. And I must admit to a sense of achievement when getting your occasional "like" to a comment.

I am sorry if you have fallen on hard times. I hope you are able to get through things.

Please apply your own advice: "stay closer to Jehovah than I did". Start getting close to Jehovah.... now! This is a God who can retrieve people from the grave even. He will help you though the pits now...if you let him. Use Psalm 139 for meditation. Stay focussed James. 

There is good money to be made from JW literature, and it is all profit to those who have freeloaded

https://www.ebay.com/b/Antiquarian-Collectible-Books-Jehovah-Witness-Watchtower/29223/bn_55470279

Coll 3:13 Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same.

Coll 2:13 provides context on as to who is the true source of forgiveness in this case. Jesus gave a clear indication of the same at Matt 6:14. The non-trinitarian translators decided that the inclusion of Divine name would correctly clarify who was referenced by the Greek word kyrios in this instance, as they did  in 3 other places in the same chapter. Despite the use of the word "messiah" in some Hebrew translations of Coll.3:13, it appears Jean-Marie Paul Bauchet had the same view as the NWT committee when translating this verse into Hebrew although I have not yet personally seen his translation to verify.

Will JWs religious activity ever return to normal?

What normal? I think we are having a ball if we are honest!

I have never had so much time for spiritual matters.....Prayer!.... Personal study!.... Meetings where I can see EVERYONE in attendance!........All my calls are on interested people!..........  And I have only filled my fuel tank 3 times in the last 6 months!..........If this is ABnormal.....I'll take it any time!

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Duncan Corbett, who was an elder for 18 years

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Lloyd Evans, another former elder

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

another former Jehovah’s Witness and a survivor of abuse, Sarah Davies

These poor people, so damaged by their experience of narrow-minded family environments and influence. It is good to publicize their first hand testimony in such an open manner. It enables a clear assessment of the harm done by lazy-minded religious bigotry as they describe in their first-hand accounts.Presumably the facts have been verified?

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

“Let them deal with the sin and the authorities handle the crime,” he told a hearing in London.

This reminds me of Joseph ben Caiaphas' unwitting prophecy. Duncan Corbett has hit the nail on the head, highlighting the failure of the authorities to protect their tax-paying subjects from the crime of CSA. Was this intentional? I hope so. Anyone got the video?🙂

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

I am now sat ON my chair. I am not sat over my chair. To be ON something means touching it or resting on it.  To be over something means to be above it.  

You might need to check some basic rules on the use of the English language as well as for the Greek prepositions, then try and discern what Rev 5:10 is referring to. I am sure you will get there in the end one way or another, bit like SS did. 

Thinking of your astute observation re SM,  about those who appear to be one and the same, you wouldn't have a twin would you? Or maybe a doppelganger or even a clone? I am sure I recognise something in your cut an' run style of argument from somewhere...........🤔

BTW, @Anna has pipped me to the post with her excellent doctrinal/contextual points above. So much so, there is really no need to elaborate further on this question.  🙂

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Now I can see logic in WTJWorg GB interpretations

Well done!

On 6/11/2020 at 10:08 PM, 4Jah2me said:

If I'm living ON THE EARTH that is different to if I'm living OVER THE EARTH. (in heaven)

There is a fault in the logic here.

The statement itself could be true. BUT, the list of cited scriptures preceding this statement, for which it is presented as a conclusion, refer to rulership, not domicile. The reality however is that a king can rule "over" or "on" a territory without personally being there.

So, there is actually a disconnect between the conclusion and the citations presented as the supporting evidence. The citations merely indicate that different translators have decided on what they consider to be a contextually appropriate rendering for the preposition epi.

The end result of the rendering serves either to clarify or slightly obscure the meaning, which itself still remains apparent either way. It is just a question of reasoning effort on the part of the reader which is reduced by the translator  rendering epi  "over" as opposed to "on". Either rendering is acceptable as the meaning itself is not altered.

On 6/8/2020 at 9:58 PM, 4Jah2me said:

In most translations I have looked at it reads as :  'on the earth'.   Why do the GB / Writing Dept translate it as Over the earth ? 

So, in answer to the OP, a translator is perfectly at liberty to make a choice between words in their rendering a text into another language where such choice is extended by the nature of the original language. In answer to "Why?", then for the sake of clarity of  the meaning of the text is the reason. In this case, the translator's word choice is quite acceptable according to the various dictionary definitions cited. The understanding of the text is enhanced, not altered. Either rendering epi as "on" or "over" does not change the meaning of the text. It is just that "over" is a better word choice for the sake of style and economy of the effort to comprehend.

On 6/8/2020 at 9:58 PM, 4Jah2me said:

In most translations I have looked at it reads as :  'on the earth'.   Why do the GB / Writing Dept translate it as Over the earth ? 

Oh, by the way, just a passing thought on Rev.5:10.

The scripture appears to be about rulership, not geography. In that case it would appear that epi is appropriately rendered in connection with the extent of rulership, rather than the geographical location of the rulers in question. The option of a contextual understanding of this preposition appears to have been exercised at Rev.9:11 and 11:6, and also by other translators in their rendering of the said Rev.5:10. (Courtesy www.biblehub.com).

Just my "version", of course.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

By the way, do you have problem with people's "own version" about this and that?

No. Only when "people" assume that their "version" is my "version". To that I have an "aversion".

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you consider them (GB) better than any other human here or elsewhere?

No. That not my "version".

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Does GB using Bible hub for their meditation and Bible study?

Who cares? It is only a portal, like a public library. There are many.

21 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Anything else is putting trust in men.

More lame logic. Trust in men is presented as some sort of extreme error. There is nothing wrong in trusting men.

On 6/10/2020 at 7:16 PM, Space Merchant said:

Even all this time, your nature remains the same - deviation.

What I have realised with many of the critical comments from some on this forum, is that they have rejected their own versions of what they think are the beliefs held by JWs. That is why it is so difficult to understand where they are coming from. Their perceptions are alien because they are personal. They assume they must be shared by all, hence the paucity of explanation, and the irrationality of their criticism. And judging from the murky glimpses of those perceptions through the sarcastic and complicated reasonings they present, little wonder they rejected them!

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But when they been faced with second question, then they feels guilty and fear because answer: "No" would mean they have to live without WTJWorg. :))

That is your cart before horse

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But than why JW's preaching how people need  to Join JW as precondition to be under God's protection that is only inside "spiritual paradise" that exists only under leadership and governing of WTJWorg company?  

You seem to be cart-before-horse-ing.