Witness

7 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Interesting that you quote[?] this verse differently than any version I've ever seen before.  On Bible Hub, for instance, see below how all but one  say, "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me"

 

Thank you, Nana Fofana.  I used the Good News Translation, the same as in the video.

Would not God’s name express authority? Ps 124:8; Prov 18:10; Jer 29:9; Ezek 39:7 and many other instances.

I can see why it was translated as it was:  In describing “name” in John 5:23, blueletterbible says of its usage:

“the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.”

We can see the implication of authority in a name by reading Acts 4:7; Rom 2:24; 2 Thess 3:6; etc.

Scriptures support its usage when we read other instances where Jesus’ authority is addressed:

John 5:26,27 - “For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,  and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.”

Matt 21:24 -  "But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."

 No, he was not seeking honor from men as he says 5:41, but he made it clear that the honor bestowed on him by God must be recognized.  He came bearing the authority, honor and power of the Father. 

In the same chapter of John, Jesus said:

“For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”  John 5:22,23

 “… however, someone comes with his own authority, you will receive him.”

“… If someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.”

"There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name (authority) under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12

Only he has direct authority over us, not an organization and its rulership.

"Do not work for food that spoils; instead, work for the food that lasts for eternal life. This is the food which the Son of Man will give you, because God, the Father, has put his mark of approval on him.”  John 6:27

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Be careful in high-fiving @Witness is my caution to you. She tirelessly presents herself here as Jehovah's true annointed - which would make her your new boss.

Isn't that the 'Who' song?  Meet the new boss - Worse than the old boss!

Matt 10:24,25

On 11/8/2017 at 6:11 AM, Matthew9969 said:

That is definitely the wrong way to go about having a dialogue with witnesses. This is a better way.....

The man in the video you posted was speaking according to the Bible – stressing who Christ is and his importance, while de-emphasizing menÂ’s doctrine.

And for that, he was silenced. John 16:2

“You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you will find eternal life. And these very Scriptures speak about me! ^ Yet you are not willing to come to me in order to have life.”  John 5:39,40

“I have come with my Father's authority, but you have not received me; when, however, someone comes with his own authority, (the GB) you will receive him.”  John 5:43

“False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction. ^ Even so, many will follow their immoral ways; and because of what they do, others will speak evil of the Way of truth. ^ In their greed these false teachers will make a profit out of telling you made-up stories. For a long time now their Judge has been ready, and their Destroyer has been wide awake!”  2 Pet 2:1-3

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/6/2017 at 1:38 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

It is a big world and I have not seen everything. I can believe age 10 or early teens without a problem. But not 6.

Notice she still has her baby teeth?

On 11/6/2017 at 10:59 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

One by one rest of children was also left JWorg. In one moment while they was been member of cong. elders made pressure and rebuke all them because they (children) spend few days in summer time with their df father. After such emotional torture of elders one minor kid cut vein on hands and must be hospitalized. After that "last drop" for her young mind and emotions, all went down. She is "damaged". And no one of elders take responsibility for her "soul".  

On 11/6/2017 at 10:59 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

WT JWorg are private Company in the very core, in essence. And as such been legalized in various country as Company, Charity Society or similar entities.

 Srecko, how well you have revealed Watchtower's hypocrisy.

“How horrible it will be for you, experts in Moses’ Teachings and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed graves that look beautiful on the outside (a charity organization! ) but inside are full of dead people’s bones and every kind of impurity.  So on the outside you look as though you have God’s approval, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."  Matt 23:27,28 

On 11/6/2017 at 5:34 PM, Nicole said:

mentally ill professional apostates

Dear Nicole, 

How is it that they are “mentally ill”, these “professional” apostates?  Was their language foul?  Were their stories insincere?  Were they physically aggressive?   Did they personally abuse anyone?

It would seem to me that one is mentally ill when an elder or elder body chooses to harbor a pedophile in the organization; deliberately ignoring the large chance that another innocent one may be victimize, because of their insane decision to handle the matter ‘in house’.

We know where that leads, don’t we. 

Just saying.  

On 11/4/2017 at 12:34 PM, Noble Berean said:

"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?

The “lawless one” of 2 Thess 2:8 is the same “son of perdition” (man of sin, destruction) in verse 3:

“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition”

Verse 4 – “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

Is the temple of God found among the clergy of Christendom? 

From Wt.’s it-1 pp. 1133-1134 “ Inasmuch as the place where God dwells is a sanctuary, a holy place, the Christian congregation is also likened to a holy place, the temple of God. (1Co 3:17; Eph 2:21, 22)    While on earth, the anointed followers of Jesus Christ are spoken of as “being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood” and as constituting “a royal priesthood.” (1Pe 2:5, 9) As the underpriests served in the courtyard and also in the Holy Place, so these Christian priests of God serve before his symbolic altar and also in the symbolic Holy Place. The priests of Israel had to be clean, so when they were preparing to serve in the Holy Place they washed themselves with water from the copper basin in the courtyard. (Ex 40:30-32) So, too, those Christians who have been declared righteous are said to be “washed clean.”

The anointed are God's Temple.

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are”.  1 Cor 3:16,17

“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” 6 Cor 6:16 (1 Pet 2:5,9)

The “man of lawlessness” is not found in Christendom, but where the temple of God exists – in the organization.  Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones…

“Persons comprising the anointed Christian congregation of God are spiritual Israelites, forming the tribes of spiritual Israel”  it-1 pp. 496-500

 …but they are ruled over by spiritual “Gentiles”– the elder body, and whom they must obey.   The “man of lawlessness” has been revealed.

This is an “abomination” standing in the holy place of Matt 24:15  Why an abomination?  The anointed priesthood are the only ones to serve in that capacity within God’s Temple as outlined by the early temple arrangement.  The elders have not been authorized by God to represent the priesthood – they have only been authorized by men. Num 3:10; 18:7; 2 Chron 23:7; 13:9; Ezek 44:6-9; Dan 11:31

“Do those of the other sheep need to know the names of all those who are anointed today? The short answer is no.

 In addition, anointed Christians do not view themselves as being part of an elite club. They do not seek out others who claim to have the same calling, hoping to bond with them or endeavoring to form private groups for Bible study.” w16 January pp. 22-27

 “What connection is there between appointed elders and the royal priesthood?  Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not.”  w02 8/1 pp. 9-14

Such a bullish statement.  None of the above quotes or articles as a whole are founded on scripture.  According to the Father and the “permanent statute” for the priesthood, there is no “representing” his priests or entrance into his Temple by anyone else.  Exod 25:1,9,22,40; 27:21,28:1,4,41; 29:44; 30:25,31-33  

Further prophesy shows the abomination in Rev 11:1-3  “Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. ² But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. ³ And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

2 Thess 2:1 - “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. “

The source of this letter are the leaders of the Watchtower, which refers to the day of Christ’s coming in 1914.

“ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition”.

 ^“And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. ⁶ Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. (1 Cor 3:16,17)  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”  Rev 13:5-7

If any JW sees this abomination, they are to flee.  All should flee, but sadly, only a small number will do so.  Matt 7:13-19

“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake (anointed) those days will be shortened.”  (Matt 15:22-24)

@Shiwiii, 

I know this long and it only covers probably half of what could.  I also hope beyond hope that it makes sense and the scriptures are accurate! To make things easier, your words are in green.

I have a hard time with most of this because it assumes things about the 144k that just isn't in the Bible. This is a leap and assumption not found in scripture. NO WHERE is there a limitation on who belongs to the New Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem is the Temple coming down out of heaven.  God’s Kingdom will encompass the earth and includes the unlimited amount of God’s children.

We may never agree on who the 144,000 are, Shiwiii, but I will give you my reasoning on it. If the early temple arrangement was a “copy and shadow” of the heavenly one, then the priesthood that served in it, were also a “copy and shadow” of the heavenly, spiritual one.  Not all of Israel were to serve as priests then.  God had a designated number.  I am saying this because the priesthood are the “144,000”, which I will try to convey through scripture. Exod 25:9; Heb 8:5; Eph 2:10; Rev 1:5,6

 There is no reference to 144k outside of Revelation, and certainly no reference to a spiritual Israel. This was all invented by the wt/gb about 144k.

The number is mentioned three times in Revelation, showing its importance within the Temple, New Jerusalem.

If one is to take this number literally, then why is it not taken literally where they come from?

It is Wt. that is taking the number literally, not myself.  I see the symbolic meaning of the number, but if it’s God’s will to use the number literally or only symbolically, (still, for a set number of people, whatever it is) it is his choice, right?  As I have said before, it really is up to God. 

“The city had a massive high wall, with twelve gates. Twelve angels were at the gates; the names of the twelve tribes of Israel’s sons were inscribed on the gates.  There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.  The city wall had twelve foundations, and the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb were on the foundations.

 The one who spoke with me had a golden measuring rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.  The city is laid out in a square; its length and width are the same. He measured the city with the rod at 12,000 stadia.   Rev 21:12-16

12,000X12,000=144,000 and the same number totaling 12,000 from every tribe of Israel.  Rev 7:4-8

Stadia – a furlong, or racecourse.  2 Tim 4:7,8; Heb 12:1  Can you see that this measurement according to God’s standards gives indication of those anointed priests who successfully conquered Satan during their lifetime?  They have “measured” up to the same standards Christ set before them.   Many times in the scriptures, the Temple/New Jerusalem is prophetically “measured”.  Rev 11:1; Zech 2:1-5; 4:10; Isa 28:17; Amos 7:7,8

Just out of curiosity I looked up “stadia”.  This link helps us fathom its size – if we were to view it literally.  It seems an impossibility for such a building to be on earth, doesn’t it?  Yet, it is very possible that it can be represented by individuals chosen as God’s dwelling.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-21/revelation-21-16.html

“I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.”  Rev 21:22 

As we have established, the Temple is not a literal building, but the dwelling of God, Christ and Holy Spirit within the anointed ones. 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19; Rom 8:9,11; Eph 2:22; Heb 3:6   God’s “servants”  “slave” for the purpose God has established for mankind, by reconciling humans to himself, just as the early priesthood did through animal sacrifices; but this time they become the perpetual sacrifice. 2 Cor 5:20; Mal 2:7; Rev 22:3; Rom 12:1   

“Its length, width, and height are equal.  Then he measured its wall, 144 cubits according to human measurement, which the angel used.”  Rev 21:17

The city being measured according to God’s standards, is the Holy City, New Jerusalem. Yet, it is measured in two different ways, one being a human measurement.  This is because the Holy City/God’s Temple encases the new creation – both human and spirit.  2 Cor 5:17; Rev 21:1; Gal 6:15; 2 Pet 3:13; Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 3:3; Jer 24:7; 31:33; Ezek 11:19; Rom 2:29; 1 Cor 15:44-49 

Rev 7:4-8 lists the 12 tribes from Israel with 12,000 in each tribe.  There are also 24 elders mentioned several times in Revelation.  Rev 4:4,10; 5:14,3:21  These coincide with the Levitical priesthood that had 24 elders/head priests over the families of that tribe.  1 Chron 24:1-4; 19 This shows the connection to the Bride/priesthood.  Notice also, what Jesus told the foundation of the Temple, the apostles:

Luke 22:29,30 - I bestow on you a kingdom, just as my Father bestowed one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom.  And you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Luke 22:29,30  Rev 7:4; 1 Cor 3:9,10

The Temple is the City of Truth. Zech 8:3 “Two” represents truth in scripture and the numbers 12, 24, 144, have their roots in the symbolic meaning of “two”, but that is another topic for another day.  John 8:17  Even a thousand – 10X10X10 – has great significance of complete perfection during a span of time, as can be seen with the symbolic Thousand Year reign of Christ. Whatever God has promised to come, is truthfully fulfilled within the 144,000.  Revelation is a book of “signs”; thus the number “144,000” signifies “truth” to reign through those assigned as “priests and kings” (Rev 5:8-11) throughout God’s Kingdom.    Rev 1:1; Isa 60:21,22; 1 Pet 2:9,10; 2 Pet 3:8; Rev 1:5,6; Gen 22:17,18; Isa 65:22

So, the city that is measured on the basis of 12,000 is the same city that “comes down out of heaven” prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  Rev 21:22 (2 Cor 11:2)

If the Temple is the dwelling of God, Christ and the Bride, the 144,000 who are standing on Mount Zion/Temple/Holy City can be none other than the Bride. 

“Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”   Rev 14:1

The Bride will always be with Christ.

The name on the forehead designates the sealing of the faithful anointed priests.  (Deut 6:6,8; Rev 13:16; 20:4)

 About the 144,000 it continues,

“These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, since they remained virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were redeemedfrom humanity as the firstfruits for God and the Lamb.”  Rev 14:4

The 144,000 are virgins, firstfruits, follow the Lamb, Jesus; and have the Father’s name written on their forehead.  A virgin Bride would follow its husband, she becomes one with her husband – who is one with the Father; thus, another indication of the Father’s name is written on her forehead (Rev 3:12) and she is “virgin” Israel. 1 John 5:20; 2 Cor 11:2; Rom 9:6  There are not two types or sets of “firstfruits” – only the anointed ones chosen to be the Bride, who are both male and female. 

I disagree, there is no replacement of Israel or else there would not be anymore mention of Jews and their place in God's plan (Revelation 2:9, 3:9, 7:4-8). In fact your use of Romans 11:25 says there was a temporary hardening of the hearts of Israel, so that the gentiles could come in. Into what? Israel. Then all of Israel will be saved.

The Gentiles are Jews by means of the Spirit as you rightly pointed out in Romans 2:28&29. Israel is not going away or being replaced, but rather being added to. 

If they are Jews by means of the Spirit, they become spiritual “Jews” and spiritual “Israel”. No longer does the physical matter since circumcision “is of the heart”. (Gal 3:26-29)  A literal Jew receives circumcision of the flesh. Just as you used the example of the “virgins” as not literal males, why would the Jews mentioned in Rev 2:9;3:9;7:4-8 be literal?  The significance of circumcision was marking those under the covenant with Abraham at the time, which has been fulfilled in Christ’s coming to earth. 

Rom 2:28,29 – “For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter. That person’s praise is not from people but from God.”

 2 Cor 5:2; Eph 2:22

 Now it is not as though the word of God has failed, because not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.  Neither are all of Abraham’s children his descendants. On the contrary, your offspring will be traced through Isaac. ⁸ That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. Rom 9:6-8

 Since ‘not all Israel are Israel’, there are both members of literal tribes from Jesus’ day, and those who share possible similarities of those literal tribes, who were once physical Gentiles, but now are spiritual “Israel”.    They are all “children of a *spiritual* promise”. 

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.” 1 Pet 2:9,10

^“ Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.   1 Pet 2:4,5

This new creation/God’s dwelling is the Bride of Christ, sealed servants of God from 12 “tribes”.

you are going to have to demonstrate with scripture how you tie 144k and the "Bride". Its just not there, and what I see the "Bride" is amounts to much more than a limited number (Galatians 4). 

They are both virgins -  Jer 18:23; 31:4; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:3,4

They are both found in the Temple -  Rev 14:1; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:22

They are both spiritual Israel  -  Rom 9:6; Rev 7:4

They are both “firstfruits” - James1:18; Rev.14:4; 20:6

Both the 144,000 and the Bride are sealed – Rev 7:5; Eph 1:13; 4:30

The significance of both, point to the appointed priesthood designated to serve God and Christ. 

There is another thought about the New Covenant woman/”Sarah”. Sarai is referred to as the “barren one”, (Gen 11:30) but through the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise, her children will be “born” with no labor pains. (Gal 4:27) Doesn’t it make sense that the children, grandchildren greatgrandchildren far outnumber the Bride? 

However, no limitations can be set upon God's temple, and those who make up that temple, that God Himself does not limit and scripture does not tell us the number of those who make up the temple of God. Thus God has not told us the limits, it is only by man that those limitations exist

The capstone is the completion of the Temple. Zech. refers to the two olive trees, Revelation refers to the same .Zech 4:12-14; Rev 11:4 They are the last “living stones” of the “144,000” to come out of the Great Tribulation, and sealed into the Temple, bearing the mark of God and Christ.  Rev 3:12;2:17

‘Who are you, O great mountain?  (Rev 8:8)
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone (“headstone”, from the root word, “to build”.)  Eph 2:20-22
With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!” ’ ”

“The hands of Zerubbabel
Have laid the foundation of this temple; (1 Cor 3:11)
His hands shall also finish it.
Then you will know
That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.”   Zech 4:9

 Rev 11:1,3,4,7,8,11,12

There is a limitation to the members of the Temple, but it waits to be seen just what the exact number will be. 

In the JW October Broadcast, an assembly hall in the United States is referenced as “Jehovah’s House”. They make the comparison of the early temple maintenance, to the care of the “773 assembly halls worldwide”. It goes into detail how this is accomplished, and John 2:17 is used to support it, which says “Zeal for your house will consume me.” These words were consistently used during the segment, convincing JWs of the obligation to maintain “Jehovah’s house”. Such blasphemy and irony. Jesus was incensed that the early temple had become a “house of merchandise”, which is no different than any convention or assembly by the Watchtower, by setting the goal for donations ahead of time. What a strange twist of a lie.

But, the grave sin resulting from this Watchtower lie is that we see again, God’s Temple/dwelling/house has been abused through a corrupt source of spiritual commodity. The anointed priesthood has been forced to “buy and sell” "spiritual food" only what a wicked slave has determined. Yet, also God’s Word has been deliberately bypassed by the false prophet/beast of the earth, which gives proof there is NO OTHER TEMPLE OR “HOUSE” than the anointed Body of Christ. 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 13:11,15-17 The Watchtower has convinced the anointed and their brethren to worship a composite idol – the organization and all of its material holdings. 

“And his disciples remembered that it is written: Zeal for your house will consume me.
18 So the Jews replied to him, “What sign will you show us for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days.”
20 Therefore the Jews said, “This temple took forty-six years to build, and will you raise it up in three days?”
21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 So when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the statement Jesus had made. John 2:17-22

I am so amazed how the Watchtower can cherry-pick one scripture, and twist it so tightly into a shiny new lie. Can Jesus’ words to the woman at the well be dismissed, when he said God is seeking for such ones to worship only in “spirit and truth”?  1 Pet 1:25; Isa 40:3-8

Keeping in mind that the broadcast is comparing meeting buildings to the early temple where God’s spirit once dwelled (God’s house) and where worship to God was given, notice what the Watchtower says,

wp 16  No. 2 pp. 8-10 - “The Jewish temple was a tangible structure at a specific geographic location. But spirit and truth are not material, nor are they limited to any physical place. Thus, Jesus was explaining that true Christian worship would not be centered in or dependent on any material structure or physical location, whether Mount Gerizim, the temple in Jerusalem, or any other sacred place.

How, then, should Christians view pilgrimages to and worship at shrines? Taking into account Jesus’ command that true worshippers worship God with spirit and truth, it is clear that worship rendered at any shrine or sacred place has no special value to our heavenly Father. Additionally, the Bible tells us how God views the veneration of idols in worship. It says: “Flee from idolatry” and “guard yourselves from idols.” (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21) Therefore, a true Christian would not worship at any place that is viewed as holy in itself or one that encourages idolatry. Thus, on account of the very nature of shrines, true Christians refrain from worshipping at them.”

SHRINE – “any structure or place consecrated or devoted to some saint, holy person, or deity, as an altar, chapel, church, or temple.”

Watchtower’s definition of “God’s House”/Temple are meeting places - shrines.  God’s definition is the Body of Christ.

Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness:

“It was asserted to me, that it is important for Christians to gather in some sort of church structure. I offer some scriptural considerations, about that thought.... Regarding buildings, Jesus' own apostles commented on the buildings that were at the center of the true God's worship. Just after Jesus proclaimed his breaking ties with the organization of his day (Matt.23:38-39), his apostles appealed to him to reconsider, by saying..., "Look Lord. what wonderful stones and buildings, and offerings dedicated to God! He said, 6 “Do you see these things? The days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” (Matt.24:1-2; Mark13:1; Luke21:5-6). What building could exist, more fitting for worship, than the Temple in Jerusalem, while God's covenant with the Jews was still in force? Of it, Jesus also said; "Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (John2:19). https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Would God's new place of dwelling with the people, be physical? Acts7:48 reads; ""However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands". The new Temple dwelling of God, that would be raised up in the Body of Christ, would not be physical. The new Temple for worship, and "place of prayer for all nations", would be his "Body". Please consider how the next two scriptures, impact that concept... "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." (1Cor.12:27) -- "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" (1Cor.3:16).

Connected to God's presence and dwelling among mankind, Rev.21:3 reads; "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.". If we consider ourselves "God's people", and ascribe import to the existence of His genuine dwelling... would we not want to give it more significance than a literal building of mortar and wood? Of such things, Jesus said they were all due to pass away. But the Temple OF HEAVEN (Acts7:44; Heb.8:5; 12:22-24), provides treasure for us that will never pass away, if we store up in our heart, what is genuine.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Just previous to Rev.21:3 (which speaks of the presence of God's genuine Temple with men), verse 2 reads; "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man." "NEW JERUSALEM" contains the New Temple, referred to by Christ. Just as a husband and wife become one flesh... "so that they are no longer two, but one"... New Jerusalem (the "bride prepared for her husband"), has become "one spirit with Christ" (1Cor.6:17) and one Spiritual body with him (1Cor.12:27), as God's Temple, with mankind.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

If we believe that a physical building has any significance or impact, regarding our salvation and connection to God and Christ... are we really perceiving the significance of what these foregoing scriptures, reveal? It can be summed up by a conversation Jesus had, in John, chapter 4:

"The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John4:19-21,23-24).

So... no mention of a location, a particular religion, or any sort of physical building. 
"Spirit and Truth". From where can spirit and truth be found? God's spirit and truth, are put inside the "living stones" of His Temple (1Pet.2:5,9-10; Eph.2:20-22) 
- "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Eph 2:20-22)

"He set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (2Cor.1:22)

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (1John2:20)

"the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." (John14:17).

Rev.5:9-10 speaks of those who are God's Temple priesthood, bought by the blood of Christ. As Heb.8:5 stated, the original physical tabernacle which Moses erected under God's direction, was built and patterned according to the heavenly one to come. It was to be a perfect reflection of the spiritual reality, expressed in physical terms. Of the original priesthood, Mal.2:7 reads; "For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts." As brought out by Rev.5:9-10... Christ has a priesthood over which he is high priest.   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Should we not seek out that Genuine Temple of God, rather than give value to a building made by human hands, where "moth and rust, consume"?

"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man." (Heb.8:1-2)

3 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

So, with all this, one simple question can be answered by not twisting scripture to benefit our own ideology instead of that of God's. What was the reverence of Christ and then the Apostles, then those commissioned by Christ, that the word "respect" is not allowed in modern times?

 

JR, I say this sincerely.  I feel you have probably been in the Watchtower for a great many years and you steadfastly defend the organization and its leadership.  There are those anointed ones who reject Christ by accepting Satan’s promise of prominence and greed. Matt 4:8; 1 John 2:19 They are those in this time of the end who are used to create the trap against their fellow servants, allowing for the spiritual war of truth against lies.  We respect those who speak truth; why should we respect anyone who speaks a lie in the Father’s name?  Jer 23:16

“For I am already bringing disaster on the city that bears my name, so how could you possibly go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth. This is the declaration of the Lord of Armies.’  Jer 25:29 

From the Wt. 04/2/15 pp. 15-20 “What methods do apostates use to achieve their aim? They often resort to distortions, half-truths, and outright falsehoods. Jesus knew that his followers would be victimized by those who would “tell all kinds of evil lies against” them. Such malicious opposers would tell what is not true with the intent to deceive others. The apostle Peter warned about apostates who would use “counterfeit words,” spread “deceptive teachings,” and ‘twist the Scriptures’ to their own ends. (2 Peter 2:3, 13; 3:16) Sadly, apostates succeed in “subverting the faith of some.”—2 Timothy 2:18. Wt. 04/2/15/ pp. 15-20

Distortion, half-truths and outright falsehoods.  These are quotes from the video I posted under “Nourishing Spiritual Food?” under “Questions”:

“But the big question is this. Is this year 1975 the final year, the last year before the Great Tribulation breaks and reaches its climax in the battle of the great day of God the almighty and Armageddon? Fred Franz, 2/10/1975 Los Angeles, CA

“Well we don’t have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower, because the Watchtower has been very explicit as to what the year 1975 means for us when God will bring the battle of Armageddon and clean this ole earth off, and you will be ushered right into a paradise earth for ever more. Never again to be afflicted with this Satanic old system of things. It will be GONE, DOWN. Charles Sinutko, District Overseer, 1967 convention in Sheboygan, MI

Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them (Wt./GB) as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes."

Have they admitted to making a huge mistake about 1975? Is that how it was presented during the Annual Convention, 2017?  Nothing was said about who originated the lies, Watchtower’s own leadership.

Wt. “Prophecy”, 1929, p 22 - "If these prophesies have not been fulfilled, and if all possibility of fulfilment is past, then these prophets are proven false."

Should we respect a false prophet?

  “Either make the tree good and its fruit will be good, or make the tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. ³⁴ Brood of vipers! How can you speak good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart. ³⁵ A good person produces good things from his storeroom of good, and an evil person produces evil things from his storeroom of evil. ³⁶ I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.³⁷ For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

An anointed one’s “storeroom” is their heart, which should only ‘store’ living waters of truth from Christ.  If they mislead millions with a lie, is it Jesus’ fault?  Jer 17:13; John 7:38

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without me.”  John 15:5

That fruit is purely good, nourishing, life-giving fruit.

“This is what the Lord of Armies says: ‘Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are deluding you. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the Lord’s mouth.’”  Jer 23:16

There is a connected chain of false prophets in the Watchtower.  The connection that links them together is the organization - Satan’s lie.  2 Thess 2:11,12; Zech 5:5-11; Rev 13:4-10

“There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. ² Many will follow their depraved ways, and the way of truth will be maligned because of them. ³ They will exploit you in their greed with made-up stories. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.”  2 Pet 2:1-3

Matt.13:

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The "net" is the means by which all sorts are gathered together.

This net is meant to "catch", ensnare (Job 18:8; Ps.9:15; 10:9; 35:8; 140:5; Ec.9:12; Isa.19:8; Isa.51:20).

God allows it...these Gentile agents of Satan (net) are being used to catch, ensnare and discipline the  anointed ones. (Lam.1:13; Hab.1:15,16;Eze.29:4; 38:4; Rev.9:7,3; Jer.51:14; Deut.28:42; Rev.13:7). As a result, those chosen ones who learn from it are refined, so that those who pass this test may become sealed. 

The net is Satanic. The fishermen who haul up the fish are Satan's "Gentile" servants (Jer.16:16,17,18,15; 5:26; Hab.1:14,15,16,17). Those who rescue them, are servants of Christ (Matt.4:19).

By their preaching, all fish still under Satan's power (net), are forced to be sorted by means of their response 

to the truth (which the fishermen preach).

Today, this net/captivity/ensnaring/catching, is being accomplished by means of organized religion, prominently being "Jehovah's Witnesses", due to having a steward over God's Chosen, who was genuinely assigned by Christ (Luke 12:42). Revelation describes the final snare as having a genuine Chosen leader who proves rebellious and unfaithful (Rev.8:10,11; 1:20; Jer.51:7)(Eze.26:5,14; Amos 4:2)
 

All the fish are under the power of Satan, who is Lord of the Sea (Leviathan) (pearl-leviathan.blogspot.com) (Isa.27:1; Ps.74:14; Rom.16:20).

His final deceptions are like a net (Ec.9:12). This also is symbolized by Leviathan's barbed scales (Eze.29:4).

Unknowingly, while mankind (anointed and others) believe Satan's lies (Rev.12:9,15,16; 16:14; 2Cor.11:3; Matt.24:24,25; Rev.13:11;2Cor.11:20), they are like fish stuck to Leviathan's barbed scales (see Ezekiel 29:4; 38:4; Job 41:1,2; Isa.43:16,17).

All anointed must go through this captivity, in order to be tested by Satan.

Satan demands it (Luke 22:31).

God allows it as He did with Job (Job 1:8,12), because it is justice to test those who are invited to inherit the Kingdom (1Pet.5:8,9,10;1Pet.4:1,13; 2Cor.4:17; Jer.17:10; Luke16:10,11; Heb.5:8; Phil.3:10; Rom.8:17).

If they fall like Adam, Eve, and Satan, they are proven unfit (fish that are "thrown away").

Since God is allowing this just testing, He asks Prov.27:11 of his chosen "sons" (Gal.3:26).

The time arrives for all these "fish" to be "hauled up" by fishermen, to face a sorting harvest.

The anointed are subjected to this testing according to perfect justice...

to prove that they are legally entitled to strip Satan of his dominion and rule (Rev.12:10,11; Dan.4:17; 2:21; 7:18,22,26,27).

Yet for a time, they are engulfed in Satan's deceptions (Rev.13:7; 11:2; 6:10; Dan.8:12,13; 11:31; Luke 21:20,24; Dan.12:7). 

(This corresponds to their time in the abyss/Babylon, under the power of the covenant with death (Babylon the Great) Psalm18:3-19

and the period of "5 months" when they are subject to the agents of the abyss (the locust-scorpion elders -Rev.9).

This is the testing/net/Great Tribulation/being hooked, by Satan.

What will they do? Will they overcome it and prove victorious?
Will they emerge from it, due to a desire to worship God alone,

and hold up an uncompromising loyalty to Truth?

Their only hope is to follow exactly the example of Christ.

He too was subjected to this test. It was symbolized by his 40 days in the wilderness,

being tempted by the devil

without "food" or "water" (Matt.4:1) ("righteousness" Matt.5:6)

just after his anointing.

(Yet we know his trials continued until his death).

In following the exact path of Christ, the chosen perfect their faith (1Pet.2:21; Heb.12:2; Luke 22:28; Matt.16:24; Rev.14:4).

They are tested under the affliction of Satan, and if they prove loyal to God through it, they are washed clean and refined...accepted as sons and daughters to God (Isa.48:10; 1Cor.6:11; John 13:10; Eph.5:25,26,27; 2Cor.6:17,18; 7:1; 2Thess.1:5; Isa.48:10).

These are the fish which are "suitable" for their inheritance, and are "taken" and not "abandoned".

These are the same ones who are considered "eagles" and as belonging to the sealed "woman" (Rev.12:14; Luke 17:37; Matt.24:28),
who is now seen "in the wilderness" on earth...[no longer a promise/symbol in heaven (Rev.12:1,2)].

This transformation represents the change in those becoming sealed.

Perfect imitation of Christ is the only path that leads them out of Satan's dominion and power, and on to life.

This corresponds to the "sorting" of fish. It also corresponds to Luke 17:34 and Matt.24:40.

Those who endure this Tribulation/sorting and prove "suitable", will be taken by God to a place prepared for them (Rev.12:6; John14:2,3)...

a place in the wilderness to be "fed" by truth, coming from the "two witnesses", for a symbolic 1,260 days (Rev.11:3; 12:6).

The "fishermen" pull the net up onto the shore (Matt.4:19; Eze.47:10; 29:5; Matt.9:37,38).

Those caught will no longer feel false peace and security (Eze.30:9,10,11,12,20-26)

        (all these verses are very symbolic as to their fulfillment. 

          I do realize that many things need to be explained in these scriptures).

The "fishermen" are those who have already proven obedient (2Cor.10:6; Eph.4:20,21). These are used by God to gather together any others who may "hear what the spirit says to the congregation" of anointed invited (as yet unsealed) (Rev.9:13,14; Mark 4:8,20; Matt.28:19,20;Luke 22:32.) and "sort" them by means of their response to declarations of Truth (Matt.13:41,42,49,50). Those who receive the initial message of these representatives of Christ, are taken to these further provisions (Matt.13:12; Luke 8:18; 12:37).

Here is an interpretation by means of scripture:

Matt.13:

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net (Ps.124:7; 25:15; 91:3; Prov.6:5) that was let down into the lake (sea/deep/abyss, belonging to Satan/Leviathan --Eze.32:2; 34:18,19,22 pearl-leviathan.blogspot.com) and caught all kinds of fish (Eze.29:4; 38:4; 47:8,9,12;Rev.22:2). 48 When it was full (Gal.4:4; Acts 3:20,21; Eph.1:9-14; Rev.14:15,18; Matt.13:39), the fishermen (Matt.4:19) pulled it up on the shore (the "border" between earth and sea -Rev.13:1; Rev.10:2,5). Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets (John6:9,11,12;Eze.39:28), but threw the bad away (Matt.25:41; 7:23; Rev.22:15). 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age ("harvest"/conclusion). The angels ("messengers" Rev.12:7; Eph.6:12; 2Cor.10:4; Rev.1:20 -human sealed anointed) (same as "fishermen"), will come and separate the wicked from the righteous (John4:35-38; 2Cor.2:15,16) 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace (Matt.7:19; Jer.23:29; 20:9; Eze.30:8;Luke 12:49; Rev.8:7; 18:8; 11:5; Deut.32:22; Amos 7:4; 2:5; Isa.66:15,16; Rev.2:16  ETC.) , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt.24:51; Hosea 6:5)

I know this is incomplete. It is hard to know where to slice the truth, since every piece of it belongs to a larger picture.

Summary:

The kingdom of heaven (meaning those who inherit it, and the reason behind those who don't)

is due to the testing (net). By means of allowing this testing tribulation, God draws up from these (those who reside amidst Satan's testing/sea), all sorts of men (unsealed good and bad). When the full limit of time arrives (net full)(harvest), Christ's ambassadors cause a decision to be thrust upon them...a decision "on the shore" (border between "earth" and "sea")(valley of the decision) (Joel 3:2,12,14;Eze.36:5). All good fish will be collected into "baskets" ("saved"/"salvation"--just as Moses was saved from the Nile by a basket.) (the "Nile" is Satan's river of lies -Rev.12:15; Eze.29:3). Those unsuitable to reign in the kingdom, will be thrown back to the sea...Satan's abyss of darkness and death, unsaved, unrescued. (Matt.24:40)

This segregation/harvest, will be done by means of the faithful bearing witness (messenger "angels") to Jesus and prophesying (Rev.11:3; 8:6;Joshua 6:13; Rev.1:20; Phil.2:15; Dan.12:3).

Those who do not respond to the "fire" (Jer.5:14; Luke 12:49; Rev.2:16), will be condemned and judged by means of it (Matt.3:12; 25:41;John15:16  --"fruit that will LAST"/"inextinguishable eternal fire").

Those who do respond will be refined by it, and it will not suffer permanent harm (Isa.48:10; Mal.3:3; Prov.3:11,12; Heb.12:10;Jer.31:2,10,11,16,28; Eze.11:17; Jer.16:15,16; Isa.54:7; 10:20,21,22,23; 1Pet.5:10).

Those who reject the cleansing fire of God's mouth, will suffer condemnation and shame (Matt.24:51; Hosea 6:5; Isa.26:5; 25:12; Isa.40:4;Zech.4:7,6; 2Pet.3:10; Nahum 3:5; Jer.13:26; Rev.17:16).

 Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness

39 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

I really like tacos 

With pretzels? 

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

Witness,

You just answer what you feel like answering - and it is the same old same........you do not seem to fathom that the first resurrection gives one a heavenly body (flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom) and immortality.... to come back to earth in 'flesh' to rule or have a materialized body ????? for thousand years ....... and then go back to heaven when the job is completed?  I have not seen any scriptures to that effect -  and I seem to think you have not read the scriptures where it discusses the kinds of heavenly bodies they will receive. 

Your sense of reality is not what it should be.... sorry to have to tell you this.... 

What does immortality mean?   And by the way you did not answer my last question I sent you before....... It is a test......  because I do not think you can answer it....  Short and sweet answers my dear.....   

I am not willing to argue with you any more - I think you are fake! and I hope others on this page are not taken in by your teachings.

As I said before with scriptural proof, the thousand year reign of Christ is finished.  Correction, I gave you scriptural proof that the thousand years began when Jesus ascended into heaven.  I have only mentioned briefly why it is now over.  

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!”   2 Cor 5:17  Gal 6:15

A “new creation” of both human and angel.

 “sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; like the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.”  1 Cor 15:44-49

 “Don't you yourselves know that you are God's temple and that the Spirit of God lives in you?” 1 Cor 3:16

The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ/Temple/Holy City – which comes down from heaven.

Now, if the Bride is in Christ and Christ is in God through Holy Spirit, (John 17:22) and the “Holy City” is God’s Temple, how is the “Holy City” going to come down from heaven without the Bride and Christ?  It isn’t a literal building, but is the Holy Spirit within the new creation/Temple.  How will God “dwell” among mankind if not through his Temple?  Rev 3:12

 “Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.   ”  Rev 21:2,3

Can you see it?  Can you see this ‘mobile’ Temple in the sealed anointed ones?  

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.”  1 Cor 3:9

“And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”  Rev 5:0

“Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

“Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. ¹¹ So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. ¹² Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.  Gen 28:10-12

“And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”  John 1:51

There is no descending in heaven, is there?  Where would Jesus be descending to with his angels/messengers (Mal 2:7), if not to earth?

Jesus received two “births”, one of flesh, one from God.  So, too, do those within his Body.  John 3:6; Col 2:9  He is the Son of Man, and the Son of God. Matt 12:8; Mark 8:29; 9:7

Jesus inherits the earth; he shares it firstly, with the “firstborn” and then the rest of God’s children. Gen 28:12-14; Ps 37:11,29  If the earth is Christ’s inheritance, should he not be allowed to enjoy it and walk among what he created with God?

"Heaven must receive him until the time of the restoration of all things, which God spoke about through his holy prophets from the beginning.”  Acts 3:21

“Again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him.”  Heb 1:6

I DID NOT MEAN TO "LIKE" MY OWN POST!!!  HOW DO I REMOVE IT?

Since I get Librarian's hint, I'll just edit the existing one.

@Arauna  Revelation is full of symbolism – the “thousand years” are also symbolic.  It is a time of each anointed one within their lifetime successfully conquering Satan.  Rev 2:26,27  It ends with the outbreak of Armageddon and Satan’s total destruction.  During Satan’s final test, they must submit to Christ’s offer to redeem from sin.  Rev 13:7,10; 3:18 

 For those faithful “with a little” during their lifetime, they inherit God’s Kingdom.  Matt 5;20,21; Luke 19:17; Rev 5:10; Dan 7:27

There is only one Great Day of God the Almighty.  Rom 9:28; 1 Cor 15:24-28

 You said, What is a spiritual body and when does it get immortality?  

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, as you say.  But, the faithful anointed become the “imperishable seed” through the anointing, while still on the earth.

 ^“because you have been born again—not of perishable seed but of imperishable—through the living and enduring word of God.”  1 Pet 1:23  (James 1:18)

Even in the flesh, if they remain in Christ, they are no longer the perishable seed; they have been given the promise of eternal life. "Perishable" is the result of harboring sin in their heart.  Death has no hold on those who reject sin. But, their faithfulness in resisting sin must continue throughout their entire life, otherwise they lose the given spirit of eternal life.  Rom 12:6; James 2:17,14,16

“For this corruptible body must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal body must be clothed with immortality.   When this corruptible body is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal body is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place:

Death has been swallowed up in victory.
 Where, death, is your victory?
Where, death, is your sting?  1 Cor 15:53-55

The “mystery” of the new creation is both human without corruptibility, and spirit/ immortality – “We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.”  1 Cor 15:51

Not only are the anointed faced with conquering death through sin, but also those who by putting their unwavering faith in Christ, receive the second resurrection. Their relationship with God must be formatted according to his will, which includes recognizing his arrangement of the priesthood.  2 Cor 5:20; Matt 10:42; Mark 9:37; John 7:17; 1 Tim 4:6

24 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

yeah, not the same. I put ? by mistake. Thanks. Will delete sign ? :))

Don't mean to confuse the issue; I was agreeing with you that the NIV translation was different than the NWT...you said,

compare with this translation; "For the wages of sin is death, NIV) not the same? Â 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Rom. 6:23 NWT say; "For the wages sin pays is death,..." and JW org explained this verse that when human died he/she are free of every sin he/she made while was living.    (compare with this translation; "For the wages of sin is death, NIV) not the same?  

Nope, it's not the same. One word - "pay" - created a lie and another delusion.  "Wages" means pay; in this case, the pay of sin.  The Wt. used this definition twice to twist its meaning.  

We can be physically alive yet considered dead in God's eyes.  

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, ^ in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, ^ among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.” Eph 2:1-3

 

 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

'By their fruits you shall know them.'  All I see is defensive talk on defending yourself and accusing others of being 'deluded'.  Your version of the "truth" is more important to you and in effect you have become your own god - defending yourself and incapable of working in harmony with others. 

My version of “truth” is pure, direct from Christ since only he is my Head, not a wicked slave.  Truth is unchanging, Arauna.  If one calls a doctrine truth and it changes within a few years, that doctrine can no longer be called “truth”, isn’t this so?  What is the foundation of the Wt., if not continually changing “truth”?  God’s Word is truth, Jesus Christ is truth and he has the capability to instill truth into those he chooses, if they live by it.  I believe “truth” is most important to God and Jesus, as well as how it is dispensed.   James 1:5; 2 Cor 4:6; John 14:6; John 18:37; 15:16

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have seen no thankfulness at all in your comments. The most important things you learnt from those very people whom you now despise are:  Jehovah's name, the mortality of the soul, Jesus is not God, and many more teachings - with which - by the way - you would not understand the 'ransom' properly to be able to receive any mercy from Jehovah in the first place - if you did not understand these basic teachings of the bible properly. Where did you learn them? 

Thankfulness?  For being misled by Satan’s most successful ruse?  Who would Satan target with a carrot if not those who threaten his own power, which are the anointed ones?  What I have come to appreciate with awe is the fulfillment of Luke 22:31; 2 Cor 11:3,14,15; Matt 7:15; 24:24,25; Rev 13:7,8; Col 2:8; 1 Tim 4:1; Rev 16:13,14

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

At present, the pupil thinks he knows more than the teacher and has come to despise him.....seen that a lot in my life. 

Are you speaking of the organization as the “teacher” or Christ, the only Head of the anointed Body of Christ, who told us to worship in spirit and in truth – not on any physical “mountain”, which includes a “mountainlike organization”?  John 4:21-24

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Your suffering is what you brought on yourself - it is not others who are doing this to you - yourself.

I wonder if the Pharisees told that to Jesus.  Matt 5:10-12 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Acknowledge this fact and you may get some healing

Heb 5:8; 1 Thess 2:14; 1 Pet 2:21-25

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is like the drunk who refuses to acknowledge they have a problem! Drunk with your own wine!

Those “drunk” with wine are those who drink out of the Harlot’s cup; the Harlot/false prophet who has forsaken Christ to serve another. “She” is the one misleading the “kings”/anointed ones of the earth with her lies.  Rev 17:-1-6,17

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Knowing many scriptures does not qualify one for remaining an anointed but an extremely humble spirit and a spirit of "serving" others not a spirit of knowing it all...   The famous quote from 1Corinthians 8 :  Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.  If anyone thinks he knows something, he does not yet know it as he should know it.....

Is your version of humility one who keeps his mouth shut and obeys men over God?  2 Cor 10:4-6; Acts 5:29  Yes, love builds up, yet the GB has chosen to forsake the love for their fellow servants by demanding their obedience; as if they are the judge and not Christ.  I wish you could see this.  Rom 6:16;14:4; James 4:12; Matt 24:48-51

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

And as I said before - one can find oneself to be one of the five virgins with no oil to keep the lamps burning. That illustration was given by Jesus as a warning to the anointed!

The foolish virgins “buy” oil – spiritual “food” -  from another source, and not from Christ. Matt 25:9,10 That source is from the “wicked slave”, who admits it is not inspired.  Why would any anointed one or their companions “buy” and then “sell” to others, uninspired “food”?  Rev 13:16,17   Holy Spirit comes directly from Christ, not through another “mediator”. The anointed are oppressed and ruled over, besides having the threat of a spiritual “death” hanging over them. If they let these obstacles stop them from ‘meeting’ the Bridegroom, they are the foolish virgins.  Rev 13:7,15 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Added point:  About your impractical ranting regarding the 'priesthood' that needs to be acknowledged now. .....  

Paul acknowledged the priesthood; in fact he taught about it. Should that knowledge now be discarded? Since this priesthood is built on Christ’s Body, refusing to acknowledge it is the same as refusing to acknowledge Christ, since the members of the Body are one in Christ and God’s true Temple.  1 Cor 12:20; Eph 2:20-22; 4:11-16

“For it stands in Scripture:

See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and honored cornerstone,
and the one who believes in him
will never be put to shame.

 So honor will come to you who believe; but for the unbelieving,

The stone that the builders rejected—
this one has become the cornerstone,

 and

A stone to stumble over,
and a rock to trip over.” 1 Pet 2:6-8

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

During the thousand years is the time when the priesthood will be working with Jesus to get the earth restored and our sins removed..... not now. They will then rule and officiate as priests...... Their job (which comes with a new name) comes only in the new heavens. 

“This is the declaration of the LORD to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool." 2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule over your surrounding enemies.”  Ps 110:1,2

The symbolic “thousand years” began when Christ ascended into heaven. Eph 1:20-23; Matt 10:34

And it is now over.  Satan has formulated his ruse to attack the anointed ones – using a “false prophet” and an assumed “spirit-directed” by God -- “image” .  Rev 20:7-9; Rev 13:2-4,7,9,15-17

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/32169-anointed-ones-and-jworg/?tab=comments#comment-70086

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

When all the priests are in heaven (married to the bridegroom) ? who is going to organize things on earth?  Aren't these "elders" who are NOT  anointed (and according to you are selfishly taking the place of the priests at present) receiving training -  learning to shepherd in a loving way?

 It will be the appointed priesthood.  They will reign on the earth (Rev 5:9,10) as God’s Bride and part of God’s Temple, where his spirit dwells within their hearts, and which will come down out of heaven.  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 John 4:13  They are the “new creation”, both heavenly and human just as Christ appeared to the disciples after he was resurrected. John 1:51; Acts 1:3; Rev 21:2; 3        

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Or is it all about the anointed for you and not the great crowd? 

Truly, the Watchtower has so successfully misled the sheep with lies.  I posted this earlier under“  “Controversial” 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/48089-watchtower-and-the-great-crowd-doctrine/

Remember, the anointed ones are the "firstfruits" of God's children under the New Covenant /"mother"/promise. Gal 4:26 Once it is a reality in the union of Jesus, the "Father" (Isa 9:6) and the Bride of Christ, the rest of Abraham's seed/children of God will be "born".  1 Cor 15:23; Rev 22:17

 The current understanding being promoted by the "Watchtower" is that the "Great Crowd" of (Rev 7:9-14) is the "earthly" group of redeemed mankind, which make it through the Great Tribulation .

However, is there something here that we have missed?  Or have we been deliberately misled? After all who is misleading the entire inhabited earth? (Rev 12:9) 
Jesus said if possible even the chosen ones. (Mt 24:24) (Mark 13:22) 
Jesus said the truth will set you free. (John 8:32)  We need to know what is true and what is not.  It is of utmost importance. 

The bible says “Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar” (Romans 3:4)

Jesus and his Father would not want us to believe a lie. Although many feel we should wait on God to rid us of lies (as if our believing them, are His fault), God Himself does not ask us to wallow in the untrue doctrines of men.    
However, he does not remove our free will. He allows leaders who choose to mislead others, as well as followers who choose to be mislead. 

The Father is a God of Truth.   (John 17:17)    Jesus never taught that it is finer to surrender loyalty to the truth, in favor of keeping unity and peace at all cost with those who prefer to cling to errors and traditions.  He clung to God's word, defying the authority of his time even at the cost of his life.

Should we be loyal to, in harmony with, and in subjection to any religious leaders, at the cost of Truth? 

 An anointed one recently showed me that the Great Crowd described in Revelation (Rev.7:9) may actually be the “Remnant” of sealed anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation.  
I put a link "Who is the Great Crowd"  written by this anointed one.  

(It is a more in-depth article) 
The link is located later in my article. 
 Also... this is not the first time that (Revelation 7:9) came under scrutiny.  
At the end of this article please see what happened in 1980.

        Some misconceptions are revealed over time, for instance in 1925 there was a public talk entitled “Millions now living will Never Die”.  That was later changed to “May” never die for obvious reasons.  If that talk were to be given today it would be:

 “ Millions then  living… are now dead ”.      Truth be told.

Other strongly entrenched things may need a deeper investigation in the scriptures (Hebrews 4:12)
This may be the case with who really is the Great Crowd.  (Re 7:9)

The New World Translation at (Revelation 7:9) reads like this:  “After these things I saw, and, look! A great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes…”

We are told that these ones are the earthly class who are not anointed, because no man can number them, and because the Watchtower says that the number of anointed ones totals 144,000. ..A definite number.  But is this enough of an explanation? Should there be more scriptural evidence?

Are there any scriptures describing the anointed that fits in with the description listed in (Revelation 7:9)? 

Yes there are.

However, before we take a look at those scriptures, can any man (or woman) answer this question?

How many persons make up the “remnant” of sealed anointed ones, during the last days?  (Those sealed anointed ones who come out of the Great Tribulation)

Is any man able to number that?     The “remnant” is by definition the “left-over” ones, or the“remaining ones” of her seed (Rev 12:17).  How many make up the remnant??? 

So it can be said that “no man is able to number” the size of the remnant.  It could be a great crowd.

Let’s look at those scriptures now:

  (Revelation 19:1, 4, 6 7 8)  Here in heaven, twice it is said of those in heaven... a… “Voice of agreat crowd  ” was heard.
 (New World Translation)

  (Revelation 5:9, 10)  “…you bought persons out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (NWT)...  (again, referring to the 144,000).

  (Revelation 3:4, 5) speaks of the 144,000 anointed ones having “white outer garments” “white ones.”   At (Revelation 19:14) the armies are clothed in white, clean, fine linen. (NWT) 
Revelation 17:14 shows that the army riding with Jesus are his chosen faithful ones:
New Living Translation

Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him."

(Re 19:8)…The bride of the lamb is said to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen…(again speaking of the 144,000 anointed ones).

Other scriptures of interest concerning clean white garments, or robes are 
(Mark 16:5; Luke 9:29; 24:4;  John 20:12; Acts 1:10)

But what about the sealed anointed being dressed in ...
“white robes”... can we be more specific?

Why yes.  In his ongoing vision, just before John sees this great crowd in... 
(Re 7:9) dressed in “white robes” he saw the following:

 (Revelation 6:9, 10,) (Re 6:11)… “And a white “robe” was given to each of them.

So there it is…the description fits like a glove. 

 A great crowd… that no man is able to number,

Out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,

Standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes.

How can the Great Crowd be anointed ones, despite the fact that we can not "number" them?
If 144,000 is the total number of the anointed, and the anointed that come through the Great Tribulation can not be numbered; it is also possible that the Great Crowd is PART of the total number. How big is that part? Apparently, no one can say.
It is like the Great Crowd is a piece of a whole pie. How big is the slice? No one can say.

Here is some supporting research done by the group that had scrutinized the doctrine about the Great Crowd earlier back in 1980.

Revelation 7:9 came under scrutiny  Back in 1980.    Quite a few of our brothers, highly respected members of our Watchtower Headquarters in Brooklyn N.Y. were disfellowshipped on charges of “Apostasy”.  Even a member of the Governing Body was forcibly removed and disfellowshipped.  The Governing Body would not re-consider the “doctrine” even though the scruitiny is based on solid evidence from the Holy Scriptures.

Here is some of their research concerning the Greek words used in Revelation as it refers to the location of the “Great Crowd”:
Naos: Divine Habitation, inner temple sanctuary…the Most Holy.

Naos refers to the inner sanctuary of the temple complex which included the Holy and Holy of Holies (or Most Holy).

Hieron is the Greek word for the entire temple complex with all its sub-structures and courts.

The distinction between these two terms is well defined in the Watchtower of August 15, 1960. Explaining the second chapter of John (which describes the presence of the money changers and all the animals which were being sold in the temple), page 493, paragraph two of the article entitled "The Temple of the Apostles' Time" says:

What kind of building could this be that had room for all this traffic? The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron.

It was from the courts of the outer temple (hieron--not naos) that Jesus drove the money changers. (See Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 and John 2:14, 15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.)

It was the entire temple (hieron--not naos) that was destroyed as a judgment from God. (SeeMatt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear.)

The earthly courtyard is located "outside of  the temple [sanctuary] (naos)" while the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:15 is described as being inside the temple sanctuary or naos. 

It is evident that throughout the book of Revelation the term naos is used repeatedly to refer exclusively to the innermost part of the temple, the heavenly sanctuary in its figurative application

Revelation 11:2 says in the New World Translation:

But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] (naos), cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations ["Gentiles"--AV, NEB, Moffat], and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Another point of importance is the fact that, at Revelation 7:9, 15, the "great crowd" is said to be"before the throne" of God.

As the Society's publications have pointed out, the Greek word translated "before" in this text isenopion and it literally means "in [the] sight [of]." (For example on page 123 of the book, Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand [1988])

This Greek word is used repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation to locate objects and persons "before" or "in the sight of" God in heaven.

Looking up the following verses in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scripturesmakes this clear:

Since these other things are considered to be “in heaven”, it stands to reason that the “Great Crowd” can also be “In heaven” and therefore could very well be the anointed invited ones and not the earthly class of humans. 


This coupled with the scriptural evidence cited above in my article should be sufficient for any reasonable person to see that it is possible that the Great Crowd of (Revelation 7:9) can very well be the remnant of anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation in the last days.

Obadiah Doxsey 

The paradise of God, is under God's New Creation, where all His trees of life are (Isa.51:3; Gen.2:8-10; Eze.47:12; Rev.22:2,14; 2:7). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
After reading those scriptures, can you see what it was, that Jesus granted the one who died at his side?
Each "tree" of life, that feeds from God's "river" of the water of life, and produces fruit for healing, is, at the same time (in a different parable), a living stone of God's Temple... the place to offer prayer for all nations (Isa.56:7). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Another parable that describes the trees of life in God's paradise, is at Luke 8:5-15. There it compares the heart, to soil... the truth, to seed. When the heart is good, the seed grows into a tree that produces fruit (in the garden/paradise, of God). Remember that the Father, is the cultivator of His own garden (John15:1). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Jesus referred to how God cultivates the soil of a heart (also compared to how He refines a heart with fire), when he spoke at John14:2-3 (please read). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Each "room"/"place", is a heart/part of God's "land" (translated as "earth"), where the seed of truth, grows. It is the part of each chosen one/living stone, where God's spirit, resides. Jesus works with God, to cultivate (prepare) the heart/"place"/"room" (Luke1:17; Acts15:14-18; Heb.8:2; Joel2:12-13; Job11:13-19; Eph.2:10; Ps.100:3; Isa.66:2; 42:6; 43:21; 1Pet.2:9-10), the "ground", where His seed will grow. 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
This also compares to a woman's womb... the heart from which, life springs (Prov.4:23). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
This is why covenants (those representing the covenant) are symbolized by women. The members of Christ's covenant bride, cultivate the "seed"/truth/words of Christ, in their hearts, so that life is given to all who receive their teaching... producing more sons for him (Rev.12:1-2,5; 2:26-27) who in turn produce more sons. 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Can you see how this spiritual virility and purpose of Christ in God's New Creation, compares to Adam? (Gen.1:28; 1Cor.15:45; John5:24) 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
---
So many parables and illustrations... symbols... to describe the same aspects of the same things. The paradise of God, is where one finds the truths of God, provided through the trees of life in that garden, who produce fruit for healing and eternal life. Jesus promised that the one who died at his side, who had expressed humility concerning his sins, and acknowledged the innocence and unjust suffering of Jesus... Jesus promised that he would receive God's favor and blessing, given those who "enter the City", the "temple", the cultivated "garden" of God. It is all spiritual, and refers to the Kingdom, where all God's messenger angels will fill the new earth, with the knowledge of God (John6:45; Hab.2:14; Isa.11:9). 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
All those granted entrance, will be taught by YHWH.

I would like to add an additional thought about Luke23:43.
http://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm
It is in regard to the word "today". 

The "Watchtower" asserts that this use of "today", means that Jesus was making his promise, on that particular day. You may agree, that such a use of "today", simply to state the obvious, would be a waste of Jesus' precious breath. Other religions, interpret the use of "today", as Jesus telling the man, that he would enter paradise, on that very day of his death. 
That teaching also, cannot be accurate, for the following reasons...

1. Jesus said that the dead will rise on the last day.
2. God's paradise (garden of God), with all it's various kinds of "trees of life" (called, chosen, and faithful priests and kings), did not yet exist.
What then, did Jesus intend, when he told the man, "today"?
A look at the previous verse, recorded the very request of the man, which Jesus was responding to. It also helps us gain understanding, if we look at a full definition of the Greek word, which is translated as "today".
The statement which Jesus was replying to, is in verse 42, and reads;
"“Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” (Luke23:42)
These words inform us, that the dying man believed, that Jesus' kingdom was yet future. This was natural for him to conclude, while viewing the condition and circumstances that Jesus was in at that moment. But was that physical viewpoint, accurate?
Jesus spoke of his suffering, shame, and death,
as his glorification (John12:22-23; 17:1)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Why would that be the case?
It is through satanic trial, that the integrity of God's servants, is proven. Such integrity, is the glory of that person. The unsurpassed integrity of Jesus Christ, was inseparable, from his position, as the king of truth. 

Jesus was not the kind of king that we see in this world. He said that his kingdom, was no part of the world, but that his authority and power, was in the hearts of those who listened to, and obeyed his message (John18:36-37; 6:37).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Jesus declared, that his position as king, already existed (Matt.26:64; Ps.110:1-2; 1Cor.15:25)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Now, returning to the words of the dying man...
He requested that Jesus "remember him", when he received his kingdom.
To be remembered by Jesus as faithful, is to be written in the Lamb's scroll of life (Mal.3:16; Rev.20:12; 21:27).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Would the dying man need to wait, in order to be written down in the king's book of the living? Would he need to wait until some future time, for Jesus to have the authority to offer that man, salvation?
No, Jesus was letting the dying man know, that on that very day, in those very circumstances... the day was already here for Jesus to endow a promise of life to his hearers (John5:24-25; 11:25-26).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
If we look at the Greek interlinear for Luke23:43 and the way the sentence is structured... as well as looking up the definition, and other Bible uses for that same Greek word... we will learn that it is not usually speaking of a literal day, but of an era, usually of a king, such as the "day of Herod" or, the "day of John the Baptist". It is speaking of an era of a person's influence. Jesus, is "Lord of the Sabbath" Day (Matt.12:8). He was already God's messenger king during his day, and already empowered with all authority, to grant life (Matt.21:1-5; John5:21)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
With all this in mind,
can you see why Jesus told the man, "Truly I tell you today... You will be with me, in paradise."? 
I believe that Jesus was telling the man, that the day of salvation was already here (2Cor.6:2), and he was already being granted entrance into the City of Life, by the already existing, king.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Cor.6%3A2...

Pearl Doxsey 4 woman in the wilderness

On 10/28/2017 at 3:36 AM, Arauna said:

Must we  bring all those who call themselves anointed together (men and women as you say)  and only listen to them?

You are sounding a lot like Korah.

Mal 2:7; Mat 5:14; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Deut 10:8; 17:9; 33:10; Lev 10:8,11; 1 John 2:20,27; Phil 2:15; Rev 1:20; 11:3,4; Zech 4:11,14

You believe I am haughty, and yet, you don’t know me at all.  But I have learned about you, since you seem to enjoy expressing yourself.   My intention is for you to learn about God's appointed priesthood.

Let me put it simply, Arauna.  The elder body will not bring about the Kingdom of God.  It is the anointed priesthood and their faithfulness to Christ – their refinement from all sin and blasphemy that will bring the completion of the Temple of God, once there are sealed. Zech 4:5,7

May I ask, why would the appointed ones of God be so disgraced by your words?  Why are those appointed by men given higher honor than God’s authentic priesthood? During the time of the end, the “saints” – not the elder body – are “trampled” by – the elder body who have replaced them! 2 Thess 2:1-12; Matt 24:15; Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Chron 13:9

And no, it won’t happen that the anointed ones, spiritual “Israel”, will be given any position to guide the sheep in the organization, because Satan is making sure that their power is brought to nothing, as your words so vividly support. Dan 12:7    (Rom 2:29; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Pet 2:5,9)

Jer 48:27 - For was not Israel a derision to you?
Was he found among thieves?
For whenever you speak of him,
You shake your head in scorn.

For any who see this disgusting thing standing in God’s Temple, they are to FLEE.  Matt 24:15,17; Luke 17:26-37

On 10/26/2017 at 6:34 AM, JW Insider said:

@Witness Thanks for responding. Too much to respond to right now, but I never had the impression that many who claim to be of the anointed have concerns about doctrinal differences anyway. There are often quirky persons among them, but in my experience, they seem to be quite loyal to the GB, and among the GB themselves, they seem quite loyal to the existing doctrines.

Wasn't GB member Martin Poetzinger a person who had gone through Nazi persecution? He never spoke much when I was at Bethel, even though he was on the Governing Body, so I never heard him tell his own experiences, but I understand he spent a total of 8 or 9 years in concentration camps.

Did this GB member suffer from persecution at the hands of his own people, as Jesus did?  John 15:20; Matt 5:11,12; Luke 12:52,53  Did he suffer for his testimony of Christ or because he was part of the Watchtower organization? Rev  11:7; 12:17   Obviously, those in the Watchtower at that time period were thrown to a different “wolf” in Satan’s world.  Don’t you find it rather ironic that the organization, which compares itself to the early Israelite nation, promises safety in the organization when no real safety exists?  Yet, with the nation of Israel, whenever God’s people followed his laws closely, they were protected from marauders, and God provided all of their needs.  Isa 48:18

It is a lie to convince people that on the one hand, they are compared to God’s early nation, and they are taught that salvation is only through the organization; yet, on the other hand, they must fight for their worldly rights and suffer for it.  Since they suffer, which is the truth?   Is the organization similar to God’s nation of Israel, or are its leaders flying by the seat of their pants? 

Just as Jesus was persecuted by his own people, the type of persecution the anointed and brethren suffer when speaking out against lies, is from their own people, which thoroughly fulfills Matt 24 and so many other scriptures. 

Refinement has nothing to do with sacrificing one’s previous life goals to become a GB member, which position provides all one’s needs. Refinement is directed at cleansing the heart from all forms of hypocrisy, false prophesy and “new light”, which is another term for “lie”. Rom 8:16,17; Col 1:24; 6:5; 8:36; Mal 3:1-3; 1 Cor 3:13; Rev 3:19

The Bible has always followed the history God’s nation.  Surely, you must wonder why the Watchtower has turned the end time fulfillment  away from God’s people, to Satan’s world.  Why the change?  Satan is bent on killing the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed”.  Would a god of deception; an angel of light; do so in full recognizable view of the victim? Or would he point out a scapegoat as the cause?   There is no “war” against the “saints” in Satan’s world, but war happens when the “saints”, as well as their brethren, defend God’s word and reject lies in the organization.  Rev 13:6,7,15; 12:17

Any JW who may say there are no lies taught over the years of the organization, has fallen completely for Satan’s delusion.  2 Thess 2:9-12

On 10/26/2017 at 9:08 AM, Shiwiii said:

Here in Romans 8, scripture clearly states that if you do not have the Spirit of Jesus within you, you do not belong to Him (Jesus). 

From Rom 8:9 you feel that because the “Spirit of God” and the “Spirit of Christ” are both mentioned, that this indicates two different spirits, am I right?

Notice what Paul says about the anointed gifts in the Body of Christ;

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. ⁵ There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. ⁶ And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. ⁷ But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: ⁸ for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, ⁹ to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same^[b] Spirit, ¹⁰ to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. ¹¹ But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. 1 Cor 12:4-11

“for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you”  Matt 10:20  Jesus is speaking to the apostles who make up the foundation of the Temple of God, and where God’s Spirit would dwell.  Eph 2:20-22  Jesus is the vine, God is the “vinedresser”.  The anointed who remain in him, are the branches.  Holy Spirit flows from the Father to Christ, and to the branches.  John 15:1-4

^“ Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.  That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. 2 Tim 1:13

“Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”  John 14:23

"If I am not doing my Father's works, don't believe me. "But if I am doing them and you don't believe me, believe the works. This way you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father."  John 10:37,38

 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. ²² And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: ²³ I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.  John 17:20-23

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. John 17:17

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.” 1 John 5:6

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”  John 4:23,24

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life”, it is through the Holy Spirit of God that is also within Christ, who is the Way to God  - and God is Truth and Life.

 “And some of you used to be like this. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”  1 Cor 6:11

John answered them all, "I baptize you with water, but one who is more powerful than I am is coming. I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.  Luke 3:16

These scriptures also give us this indication.  1 Cor 6:11; John 20:22; 14:16; 3:16; Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”  John 1:1

Can you see the oneness of God and Christ; in Spirit, Truth, Life, Word, as well as those who must also speak in God’s Spirit of Truth and Life?  I threw a lot of scriptures at you, but hopefully we can reach the agreement that God’s Spirit is the same spirit that is in Christ. 

On 10/26/2017 at 9:08 AM, Shiwiii said:

Where in scripture do we see any limitation? please provide scriptural support.

I believe there is a limitation to the number of “living stones” making up the Temple/Body of Christ, because of Zech 4:6-10:

So he answered and said to me:

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the Lord of hosts.
⁷ ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone
With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

⁹ “The hands of Zerubbabel
Have laid the foundation of this temple;
His hands shall also finish it.
Then you will know
That the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.
¹⁰ For who has despised the day of small things?
For these seven rejoice to see
The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.
They are the eyes of the Lord,
Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”   (Rev 11:1-7)

These are prophetic words referring to the God’s Temple built on the Body of Christ.  The “capstone” is the last remnant of the 144,000 anointed priesthood to complete Mt. Zion, and who make it through the Great Tribulation.   1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:9; Eph 2:20; Heb 11:10; Rev 7:15, 2 Chron 23:6; Num 3:10; Rev 5:10

God may expand the priesthood once the Kingdom is established, for reasons we will know if that times comes. 

On 10/26/2017 at 9:08 AM, Shiwiii said:

Where is there a mention of a Spiritual Israel in the Bible? A replacement if you will. I see no spiritual Jerusalem, only earthly and heavenly. I agree that the new covenant is under the free woman and that it IS separate from the first covenant, but I see nothing that excludes those of the first covenant from salvation. 

God’s city was the literal Jerusualem, the Temple was the dwelling of God’s spirit. While the anointed are on earth, their “mother” or promise from God is “Jerusalem above”. Gal 4:26 When the faithful ones are sealed into the “heavens”, they become part of the Holy City, because they are symbolically, spiritually, “living stones” of the Temple of God.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 3:12

And they are spiritual “Israel”.  The early temple arrangement was a “copy and shadow of the heavenly one”. Only the priesthood among the Israelite nations were chosen to serve in the Temple.  No longer does one’s fleshy nationality matter.  Israel becomes a spiritual nationality under a “promise”.  Heb 8:5; Rom 9:6-9; 11:25,26; 2:28,29; 1 Pet 2:9,10; Jer 31:33; Rev 7:4

We’ve talked about this, but again, this living Temple, which is the Bride of Christ, will have its presence on earth and in heaven.  Rev 5:9,10; 21:2 Through the Holy Priesthood and Christ, God’s spirit will dwell with mankind.  Rev 21:3,4

but I see nothing that excludes those of the first covenant from salvation.   

I don't either.  There is still a resurrection of the "living".  Matt 22:29-32

On 10/26/2017 at 9:08 AM, Shiwiii said:

Temple/New Jerusalem/ Bride, yes I agree they are all the same and Galatians tell us that those in this group will outnumber those of the first group. Galatians 4:27 which is a quote from Isaiah 54 says they will outnumber, so there cannot be a limitation to only 144,000 because there are far more than that in the first group. You see, this is where we must understand each other and support our belief with scripture before we can dig deeper.

God had a covenant with the earthly nation of Israel, comparing it to “marriage”, which was fulfilled by Christ’s appearance on earth.  Under that marriage “contract” life was restored to earthly creation – Christ was the “second Adam”.  Isa 62:4

Under the fulfilled promised New Covenant, further life will come through Christ in his role as “father” and the 144,000 Bride. Isa 9:6 The “woman” in Revelation gives “birth” to this promise of further life by those anointed ones “laboring” individually to fulfill the promise.  But once fulfilled, no labor is experienced when the rest of God’s children are brought into the Kingdom. 

She can be considered a “desolate” woman/promise in the time of the end because of Satan’s intent on devouring her, captivating the anointed ones with the delusion of 2 Thess 2:9-12  She is consumed by lies, affliction and oppression; thus, only a remnant returns to God and is saved.  Jer 3:14; 31:7; Luke 17:34-37; Matt 24:28; Rev 11:8; Jer 31:7; Isa 48:20; Matt 24:14, Ezek 34:14; Matt 24:16; Ezek 36:8 

But even through the lifetime of each anointed one, they “labor” to resist Satan’s afflictions that come upon them.1 Pet 5:8,9  When the “capstone” is in place and Satan is destroyed, the fulfilled “woman”/promise is a reality, bringing forth children without labor. The 144,000/Bride are the materialization, the evidence of that promise.

There was a remnant saved from the physical nation of Israel, and a remnant of “spiritual Israel” during the time of the end.  Rom 9:22-29; Rev 12:17; 20:7-9; Luke 17:31-37

“For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. (144,000/Bride)  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”

These children also, become “Israel” fulfilling the promise to Abraham. 

In Isa 54:11-13 you can see the reference to God’s Temple of “living stones”, with the foundation built on the apostles and prophets within the Body of Christ.  Rev 21:10-14; Eph 2:20

On 10/27/2017 at 7:33 PM, Anna said:

In all my years as a Witness I have never been aware of that. I wonder why?

As Kevin Alfred Strom said,

“To determine the true rulers of any society, all you must do is ask yourself this question: Who is it that I am not permitted to criticize?”

“But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important.”  ws11 7/15 pp. 17-21

In other words, no other anointed one or their brethren can discern truth, is that right? It is God’s purpose and will for us to to obey only Christ, which is obeying God; and which results in spiritual blessings.  Obeying men brings entitlement in this world -  a good name among others, a “life” that appears secure, but this isn’t how we make a good name with God or receive eternal life.  We can’t accomplish both.  We can’t serve men and their desires, and God, as we would be deceiving ourselves. Matt 6:24   Accepting “dead” words (“old” light) spoken from foolish prophets, causes one to become a hypocrite. If they have spoken “dead” words in the past using God’s name, why would God bless them at all?  It’s pretty cut and dry. Hos 9:7; 10:1,2  If one desires not to be a hypocrite and wants only to obey God and Christ,  the “prominent position” ruling over Christ’s slaves has sanctioned the elder body to disfellowship that person; because that person, acting out of love for Christ, will not keep doubts to his or herself. They will question the presumed authority and base their case on Christ's own words.   Rev 11:7; 12:11,17

You haven’t gone there, Anna. 

^“When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.  For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.  For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?  Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?  For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”  Mark 8:34-38

It takes a little bit of bravery to stand up to an organization that fails sorely in guiding people on a straight path spiritually; but Jesus said,

“Now when they bring you to the synagogues (“congregations”) and magistrates (the ‘origin’ of rule/leader - GB) and authorities (the power of judicial decisions – elder body), do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say.  For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”  Luke 12:11,12

We know that the twelve tribes of Israel were divided after King Solomon died. 1 Kings 11:10,11,31 Ten tribes became known as the Northern Kingdom and called “Israel”. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin were the Southern Kingdom and called “Judah”. Out of all who reigned both in Israel and Judah, only a handful were considered faithful to God. Amazingly, all of Israel’s kings supported calf worship and some, Baal worship; with only a few of Judah’s kings worshiping God. One of them was King Asa.

“ Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did his father David.” 1 Kings 15:11
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Today, we would say “great, great grandfather” when referring Asa’s relationship to David. Asa’s immediate father was Abijam.

“And he banished the perverted persons from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. Also he removed Maachah his grandmother from being queen mother, because she had made an obscene image of Asherah. (A Canaanite goddess) And Asa cut down her obscene image and burned it by the Brook Kidron. But the high places were not removed. Nevertheless Asa’s heart was loyal to the Lord all his days.” 1 Kings 15:13,14

As long as Asa relied completely on God during his reign, peace came to the land of Judah. 2 Chron 14:2-8 When Zera the Ethiopian came up against Judah, Asa’s army of 580,000 men faced a million men and 300 chariots. 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

“So Asa went out against him, and they set the troops in battle array in the Valley of Zephathah at Mareshah. And Asa cried out to the Lord his God, and said, “Lord, it is nothing for You to help, whether with many or with those who have no power; help us, O Lord our God, for we rest on You, and in Your name we go against this multitude. O Lord, You are our God; do not let man prevail against You!” (2 Chron 14:9-11)

With God’s intervention, Judah was victorious; but there was one incident during Asa’s reign when he forgot his God and relied on the strength of the King of Syria, when the evil King Baasha (which even means “wicked”) of Israel came up against him. Asa bribed the Syrian king to break off his treaty with Baasha, offering him the treasures of the temple, to side with Judah against Israel. 2 Chron 16:2,3 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Did this act escape God’s notice? No, Hanani the seer reminded him of this victory over the Ethiopians and then stated,
“For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those WHOSE HEART IS LOYAL TO HIM. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.” Then Asa was angry with the seer, and put him in prison, for he was enraged at him because of this. And Asa oppressed some of the people at that time.” 2 Chron 16:7-10

In the Watchtower article of 3/2017, “Serve Jehovah With a Complete Heart”, Asa is held up as an example to the flock when dealing with school mates, work mates, and when loved ones are disfellowshipped.

“In such situations, rely on God, just as Asa did. Pray to Jehovah, be courageous, and keep doing what is right. Remember that God strengthened Asa, and he will strengthen you too.”

JWs, look at the history of the organization. How many battles has it fought to secure its fortress? Although there have been many court cases won by the Watchtower; how many court cases today concerning child abuse, are lost? And what about the suffering during the Holocaust, and now Russia? Yes, there have been years of prosperity, but even the wicked, greedy kings of Israel had prosperous years.

Consider the titles of these news articles from the Watchtower’s website:
“Russia Targets Jehovah’s Witnesses With Anti-Extremist Legislation, Reports UN Human Rights Committee”

“Russia’s Supreme Court Ruling Has Negative Impact on Jehovah’s Witnesses”

Within these articles the organization has rallied the opinions of individuals and entities around the plight they face in Russia
• the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe
• United Nations Human Rights Committee
• Derek H. Davis, formerly the director of the J.M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies at Baylor University. 
• Roman Lunkin, head of the Center for Religion and Society Studies at the Institute of Europe Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow

By referencing as well as relying on these prominent ones support who sympathize with the Watchtower’s plight, can we see that this is no different than what Asa did when reaching out to the Syrian King for aid instead of giving full reliance on God? Yet, this has been the routine since the Watchtower’s beginnings. Although it will point out Jesus’ words of Mark 13:9 as the reason behind their persecution, what he meant cannot be applied to those who expect obedience to men, the elder body and GB, before obedience to God and Christ. Acts 5:29; Rev 13:15 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

If we endeavor to serve God with a complete heart, there is nothing left for us to visualize but God and his Son alone, whom we give our service to; but just as the wicked kings worshiped other gods, so too, do those within the Watchtower. If we are told to serve God with a complete heart and are then directed to give our attention and service to an organization built by men who call it the source of salvation, WE COMMIT IDOLATRY. Jer 11:10
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

Wt ‘90/11/1 p. 26 – “As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of IDOLATRY – be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of SALVATION to a person or an ORGANIZATION.”

Now, back to Watchtower's true colors:
“Come to Jehovah’s ORGANIZATION for SALVATION” – Wt. ‘81/11/15 p. 212

The Watchtower’s rule of unfaithful anointed ‘kings’ falls in line with those who ruled the Northern tribes of Israel. Calf worship began with Jeroboam, used to distance the people from the true temple in Jerusalem. It became so deeply entrenched through successive reigns; it remained as an icon against God until the fall of the kingdom. Fortifying the kingdom kept the people from true worship in Jerusalem. Baal worship was introduced by Jezebel until the prophet Elijah brought an end to it.

In the organization, the true Temple, God’s anointed priesthood, has been thwarted and replaced by a false priesthood, who comprise the organization – the elder body. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19; Eph 2:20,21 In a similar way practiced by Israel’s kings, the flock are told to “stay away” from God’s Temple and look instead toward the idol/organization with its false priesthood as salvation. Replacing God's priesthood is not new. When Jeroboam set up calf worship, he appointed his own priesthood which of course, was not sanctioned by God. 1 Kings 12:32; 2 Chron 11:14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

JWs, do you know the names of those on your elder body? Of course, you do. On the other hand, God’s authentic priesthood is to remain anonymous.

Wt. 1/16 -“ Do those of the other sheep need to know the names of all those who are anointed today? The short answer is NO. Why not? Because even if someone has received the heavenly calling, that person has received only an invitation, not a final confirmation of the reward. That is why Satan raises up “false prophets . . . to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”

Who are the anointed ones that have made themselves quite prominent, and whose names are on every JW tongue? It is the Governing Body, Revelation’s “Jezebel”. They are the source of the previous Wt. quote; false prophets who expect the chosen ones and companions to commit idolatry by giving servitude to all functions, and loyalty toward the mission of the organization; a mission that has at its roots the purpose to destroy. Rev 12:1-4 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
“Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. Rev 2:20

Like Israel’s Jezebel, the “Jezebel” today is responsible for “killing” (disfellowshipping) those in Christ who desire to serve God with a complete heart. 1 Kings 18:4; John 16:1-4 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

She, and her ‘army’ are those Christ’s faithful ones face when Jesus said, 
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.” Luke 21:12

When dealing with King Ahab and his wife Jezebel, Elijah the prophet declared a drought on Israel. God told him to leave and assured him he would be fed and cared for. 1 Kings 17:1-15 Today’s “Elijah” who pronounce to God’s people to repent of their sins, are the “two witnesses” who have left Watchtower’s idolatry and its spiritually desolate state. Zech 4:11; Rev 11:3,4; Matt 17:3,4,10,11; Amos 8:11; Rev 18:8; Luke 17:31-37; Rev 12:14

They, and all who desire to serve God with a complete heart are spiritually well cared for during this time of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Matt 22:1-14, not found within the walls of the Watchtower. Rev 13:7,15 Luke 17:26-37; Rev 11:1,3,4,7

To whom, then, can you compare God?
To what statue can you compare him?
Craftsmen make idols.
Goldsmiths cover them with gold.
Silversmiths make silver chains for them.
The poorest people choose wood that will not rot
and search out skillful craftsmen
to set up idols that will not fall over.
Don’t you know?
Haven’t you heard?
Haven’t you been told from the beginning?
Don’t you understand the foundations of the earth?
God is enthroned above the earth,
and those who live on it are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the sky like a canopy
and spreads it out like a tent to live in.
He makes rulers unimportant
and makes earthly judges worth nothing.
They have hardly been planted.
They have hardly been sown.
They have hardly taken root in the ground.
Then he blows on them and they wither,
and a windstorm sweeps them away like straw.
“To whom, then, can you compare me?
Who is my equal?” asks the Holy One. Isa 40:18-25

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

but wait ........... the anointed  already have an opportunity to serve as ministerial servants or elders on a 'body of elders ' in each congregation 

 

“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”  Gal 3:26-29

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

in each congregation and can "contribute" their wisdom and humility by 'washing the feet of the others' and not taking prominent places! 

You are aware that the GB have taken the “prominent” position over their fellow slaves, don’t you?  You do realize that their fellow “slaves” are to answer to them, and not directly to their appointed Master, Christ?  So you see, anointed ones are to “wash the feet” of the GB.  In fact, every JW “washes the feet” of not only the GB, but also the elder body through their expected obedience to them, and servitude toward the organization.  Matt 6:24; Rom 14:4

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

We already have a central organization

Acts 17:24

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

The GB is 'under' heavenly Zion (Hebr. 12:22)  - so as an extension of Zion they represent Zion on earth...

Incredible. 

Watchtower 02/7/1 pp. 9-14    Today, Zion is represented on earth by the remaining ones of “the Israel of God,” the international congregation of spirit-anointed Christians, who have the hope of ruling with Christ in heaven.

To clarify, every authentic anointed one is Zion, God’s dwelling and Temple as the Body of Christ.  John 2:19-21; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22; Col 2:11,12; Eph 2:6; Ps 132:7-9,13,14

Unless they choose to deny Christ, as has the “wicked slave” who beats down his fellow slaves using the “man of lawlessness”/false priesthood/elder body.   Matt 24:48-51

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.  2 Pet 2:1-3

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

When the elders work together properly (collectively) the spirit of Jehovah can operate freely in the elder body and direct matters

God does not bless “foreigners”/”Gentiles” who replace his anointed priesthood; “sitting” in for them, or standing over them, demanding their obedience. 2 Chron 23:6; Ezek 44:6-9

It is a “disgusting thing” – an “abomination standing in the holy place”.  Yet, the Watchtower has attempted to change scripture to support this abomination.

NKJV for Ezek 44:6-9 -  Say to rebellious Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Enough of your detestable practices, people of Israel!  In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant. 8 Instead of carrying out your duty in regard to my holy things, YOU put others in charge of my sanctuary. 9 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites."

Now, read the NWT:

"And you must say to Rebelliousness, to the house of Israel, "This is what the sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, "That is enough of you because of all your detestable things, O house of Israel, when you bring in the foreigners uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, in order to come to be in my sanctuary so as to profane it, even my house, when you present my bread, fat and blood, while they keep breaking my covenant on account of all your detestable things. Neither have you taken care of the obligation of my holy things, nor would you post [others] as caretakers of my obligation in my sanctuary for yourselves. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, may come into my sanctuary, that is, any foreigner who is in the midst of the sons of Israel."

I hope you can see the devious ploy of the Watchtower to support their elder body; but by doing so, they contradicted their own intention.  Firstly, they say the priests brought foreigners into the sanctuary, then it is state they didn’t “post others as caretakers”, as if they needed to.  The NKJV version shows that the sin was “foreigners” were brought into the sanctuary and put in charge of the priestly duties. 

The “others” in God’s sanctuary today, is the “Gentile” elder body, replacing “Israel” – replacing the authentic priesthood and removing the “daily sacrifice”.    Rom 2:28,29; Dan 8:12;7:25;11:31;12:11; Matt:24,25; Rev 13:7; Matt:24,25; 1 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:1,2; 6:14,15;17:14  

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

they do not need an anointed one to function

Your words support the “disgusting thing” of Matt 24:15

For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.”’  Jer 30:20

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

If you do not trust Jehovah to oversee the knowledge he wants us to have now and to direct his angels in preaching work - you will find yourself outside this organization..

 Then Nebuchadnezzar, in rage and fury, gave the command to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. So they brought these men before the king. ¹⁴ Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the gold image which I have set up? ¹⁵ Now if you are ready at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, and you fall down and worship the image which I have made, good! But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?”

¹⁶ Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. ¹⁷ If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. ¹⁸ But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”

 Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the expression on his face changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. He spoke and commanded that they heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated. ²⁰ And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace. ²¹ Then these men were bound in their coats, their trousers, their turbans, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. ²² Therefore, because the king’s command was urgent, and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. ²³ And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

²⁴ Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”

They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”

²⁵ “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god except their own God!   Dan chapter 3

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

and it is the only organization with future kings and subjects.

“Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,^[b] and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 

So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, (Matt 24:15; 1 Cor 3:16,17) and those who dwell in heaven. ⁷ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. ⁸ All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  Rev 13:1,4,6-8

“They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city (ZION!). And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”  Rev 20:9,10

I am defending God, Christ, our High Priest and his priesthood, (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9) which is Zion, as scripture dictates.  What are you defending, an organization built in Satan’s world, and a delusion? 2 Thess 2:9-12

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”  Heb 4:12