Patiently waiting for Truth

2 hours ago, Witness said:

To clarify, each person in our household left the organization for different reasons.  Can a disfellowshipped person influence another to lose their “faith” in the organization?  Yes; however, my spiritual decisions for leaving are not at all the same reasons why the other three left. And, I was not the first to leave.  Each one of us, saw specific flaws in a belief system that caused us to doubt God’s involvement in…hypocrisy, rules applied by men that went against sound reasoning, rules established according to men’s doctrine and not according to scripture. The result is, two in the house have no more belief in God or Christ.  One has retained a belief, but struggles in making it a central part of life. 

The organization’s record of unsound and failed/changed teachings, and failures in shepherding, are generally what bring forth doubt and lack of faith in God and Christ. Each one of these listed, causes spiritual ‘infection’.  To think JWs are immune to this, is fallacy. 

My husband had a CT scan a while back.  This was to be beneficial in finding the reason he was sick, by locating and identifying the disease.  Yet, the requirement of an iodine contrast which is used to enhance the scan’s ability to detect abnormalities, resulted in severe reactions.  The fluid flushed through his veins caused side effects that are still with him two months later. The CT scan had its advantages in targeting the disease, but the harsh reactions he experienced also left its visible mark, since his entire body is covered in large rashes – a form a dermatitis that doctors say needs to be fought with more drugs. We have chosen an alternative route to treat it, using natural remedies.

Who would have thought that something routinely prescribed as providing beneficial results, would also produce such harm?  Because the WT has targeted and explained a handful of false teachings in religions, the majority of JWs adopt the belief that all WT’s teachings must be fully beneficial, aiding one to recover from say, “christendom’s” lies.    Since we know a lie is a lie, and wrong teachings remain wrong teachings, and the organization has had its large share in wrong teachings (lies), a JW’s faith is not immune to experiencing spiritual infection from a bad dose of wrong information (rotten fruit/poisoned waters), accompanying a known truth.  God’s word does not condone building our faith on a little truth and a lot of lies.  (Matt 12:33,34; Luke 6:43-45)  Can you imagine Jesus saying to his apostles, “Oh, go ahead and partake of the leaven of the Pharisees…because they will still produce some truth”? (Matt 16:6,12;7:20; Luke 6:47-49)  For the most part, JWs will not notice how they are spiritually infused with paltry waters/teachings that had no advantage in beneficially aiding the growth of one’s faith; unless one  is putting faith and trust in an organization.  In that case, there is always a promise of good things that men will produce, and which places a bandaid over the 'infection' resulting from bad teachings.  (Jer 6:14; Ezek 13:10)  

Jesus spoke of “living waters” that would be evident in those anointed whom he sends.   No side effects, no ‘infections’, but only teachings that build upon teachings, and all are truth. (Matt 10:40,41; John 15:16)   

 

“On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard. He said loudly, “Whoever is thirsty must come to me to drink. ³⁸ As Scripture says, ‘Streams of living water will flow from deep within the person who believes in me.’” ³⁹ Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive.”  John 7:37-39a 

 Many in the organization are becoming alert and keenly aware of painful results from the absolute “bitter” waters they have been ingesting and seek other means to remedy the resulting effects.  In my household there are four examples of how one leaves the WT and pursues relief from spiritual “infection”.  Not all of them are on a right path; but neither are those tolerating contaminated waters in the WT.  (Jer 23:14-22)  If the GB truly adhered themselves to the teachings of Christ, as they say they do, they would undoubtedly, and continually, produce “living waters” -  pure, and trustworthy. (John 4:14; 6:63; 2 Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:21,22; Rev 22:17) If excuses are made for their falsehoods, then there is total disregard for the promise Jesus gave us, that he would provide reliable Truth in those whom he sends. (Matt 21:33-45)  There would be no need for a persuasive ‘lecture’ about whom we should trust, as Gerrit Losch felt necessary to convey. John 15:5

 ^“Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: ¹⁵ looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:14-15

“Bitterness” - acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively:—bitterness.

“Defiled” -   contaminate 

The root of the “trouble” and divisions caused among disgruntled members who leave the WT, falls on the shoulders of the GB, and the elder body that dispenses the GB's “waters”.  (Rom 16:17;Jude 1:17-19; Rev 8:10,11; 13:11,12,16,17; 17:15)  If we continue to apathetically believe we can spiritually thrive on WT’s infected waters, then our spiritual outcome falls on our shoulders.  (Heb 4:12; Rev 18:4-8)

 

 

 Of interest - " Locust - Scorpions " / " Abaddon " / " fallen star " / " Wormwood "

Pearl Doxsey,  4womaninthewilderness blogspot

 

 

 

If you have a 'household' of 4 people that are all non JW's then you have communication and friendship amongst you.

There are probably two things that keep people in the Org.

1. It is like a social club where people spend time together when not in 'service' or meetings. They go shopping, have parties, visit each other, hence they are UPBUILT, not by the false spiritual food from the GB / elders, but by the day to day activities of a kind of friendship with other JW's.  

2. The fear of losing everyone that they had associated with, thereby having no contacts / friends, and possibly family. Also as has been mentioned in another topic, the fear of loss of business when one does lots of business with brothers and sisters. 

I think some call it, physically in / mentally out or spiritually out. So just using the 'contacts' inside, not using the fake spiritual blurb... 

I wonder what 'trade school' the GB's lawyers went to  

⁴ Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism ³⁵ but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 

Maybe it is that God is not partial but gives everyone a change to serve Him. If a person is in the military because they think it is right to be there then they are maybe not sinning in God's eyes. But once they find out that war is wrong, and that killing people is wrong, then God will expect them to change their ways. 

Look at those words from Peter. God accepts those that fear Him and 'does what is right'. That means 'Does what is right in God's viewpoint, not man's. We all know how wrong war is, how wrong man's inhumanity to man is. The Nation of Israel had a totally different purpose, that of bringing Jesus Christ onto this Earth, so God made them or allowed them to go to war, to keep their nation as clean and safe as possible.  God's way is different now, it's to show love to as many as we can and be peaceable with all where possible. We know that God is not partial, so it would be wrong for us to be. 

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, of course. But after Jesus established the "new" religion; Christianity, what other game is there? And of course I am not talking about Christendom/Counterfeit Christianity, but about the Christianity that Jesus established. I don't see any other "Christian" religion practicing it in the way that the 1st century Christians did except Jehovah's Witnesses.

The best thing to do would be to write to the UK branch and inquire. Or even call them. It doesn't look like anyone is trying to hide the fact that this is IBSA property. There is even a link to our JW website. So I would definitely call and ask about it. You can post the answer here! Thanks 🙂

@Anna Yes of course Christianity is right, but that does not follow that JW Org is right. Please see my new topic on this.

@Tom Henry  Was taking about mansions and I'd seen this about JW Org selling mansions, so I thought I would link it in. If they are selling private and business properties her in UK ,i do wonder what they are selling in USA.  I also wonder where they are getting the money to restore these properties and where the profit goes. It also seems to me to be part of the world that they do not need to be involved in, but that's just my viewpoint. I wonder who lives in such properties before they are sold. I can't imagine the Org leaving those houses empty whilst they are on the market for over one million pounds each. 

Contacted London Bethel 'HQ' once only. Totally unChristian response, I will never contact them again. 

Point 1. I really do laugh at this term "Only game in town"   As I've said before the JEWISH RELIGIOUS LEADERS would have said that serving God by obeying THEM and the Mosaic Law, was the only game in town. Jesus however proved those Religious leaders to be wrong. Jesus and his disciples carried over the good points of the Mosaic Law and discarded the bits no longer needed. (Such as animal sacrifices, circumcision etc). 

Russell & Co came out of former religions. I presume they must have carried over some good points from those former religions, then made adjustments or changed doctrines.

So why would it not be possible for people that have left the JW Org to form a new religion ?  Carrying over the good and disposing of the bad, of which there seems to be plenty....

I'm not saying it will happen but it does dispose of this idea of 'the only game in town' brainwashing. JW's seem to be taught that there cannot be anything else ever. What if Russell had believed that, the Bible Students would have never been formed. 

Point 2.  The 'Truth' / JW Org.

As I read more and more on here I am finding out that the Governing Body / Writing Dept'  / Legal Dept' et al,  have deliberately told many lies.

The latest I'm reading (on a new topic on here) but the info stems back a while, seems to contain information whereby the 'Org' / those in charge at the time, implied, that children cannot get baptised, and that blood transfusions were acceptable to the Organisation. It seems that this was written in order to get favours from a certain government. 

Both of those things are lies but seem to be deliberately used for some form of dishonest gain.

Then of course we have lawyers telling lies in court about shunning. 

And C.S.A court cases have proved that elders and others have deliberately lied. And the American 'section' of the JW Org deliberately withholding information regarding such matters.

Link this to misuse of scriptures, such as, Superior Authorities, which deliberately took away people's conscience / freedom of choice, in WW2.

And I'm sure people here can come up with lots more examples of lies, deliberate wrongdoing, mistakes, misinterpretations, 'new light' corrections et al.

Why am i writing all this ?  Well I am proving two points. 

1. If it's your 'only game in town' then it's not a good one. 

2. That calling it 'The Truth' is totally deceptive.

I do not think you would like it if I gave you a meal that was three quarters yummy, but a quarter poison. The poison might well contaminate the good food !

So, saying that the Org / GB are three quarters right does not help. 

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

Sorry for butting into your conversation, but I feel like I need to comment on this. I am assuming you are at a stage what ex JW's call "waking up" . This is very misleading though because it implies you have been asleep, and now, by finding out all the stuff they have to say, you are getting "real" facts, whereas really, all it is (in the majority of cases) is them letting go of spirituality, and embracing a me only attitude. If that is the way someone wants to go, then they will find many "excuses" which make this transition easier. These people are no longer concerned about what God thinks, this is why the large majority of them have become atheists, because that's so much easier; they don't have to take God into account in what they do in life at all. That's what it's really about. So don't be mislead in thinking you will find enlightment, unless of course you prefer to forget about God, in which case you will agree with everything they say. But if you are concerned about what God thinks, then do your research and you will find that Jehovah's Witnesses, despite their failings and mistakes, are the only true religion, or as even a die hard critic like JTR would say: "Jehovah's Witnesses are the only game in town". 

This silly expression  "only game in town" does make me laugh.   The Jews would have told Jesus and his disciples that the Jewish way / Mosaic law, was the only game in town. I'll make a new topic soon   I'm learning quickly here. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I would never denigrate human rights. I like those things. Life is easier when they are respected. But I prefer the term Golden Rule. It preserves all that is noble about human rights while discarding all that is pretentious. 

We are too short-sighted to properly use our human rights. Plus, our own bodies do not respect them, so can they really be called “rights?” In his day, Ronald Reagan was arguably the most influential person on earth. Ten years later, in the throes of Alzheimer’s, he didn’t know who he was. In this case, obedience to Christ will one day remedy this assault on our human right to unlimited life, limb, and health. Clearly this is the human right to focus upon, as we practice the golden rule.

Still, “human rights” is the buzzword today, not “golden rule,” so that is the game that must be played. It doesn’t always translate into a plus.

I wrote up an example some time ago. Mormons had succeeded in a California ban on gay marriage. In 2010, the ban was overturned and the judge sited a famous JW case:

“The reference by Judge Walker to West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette will have the Watchtower Society scratching their heads. “How did we help those wicked sons and daughters of Sodom and Gomorrah?” they will be asking themselves.

“To which I replied: “No they will not.”

“Well....... “It was never the intention of the intolerant Witness religion to grant any freedom of expression outside their own narrow view,” he asserts.

“Nor was it their intention to restrict any other group from benefiting from legal precedent they’ve established,” I replied.”

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/09/proposition-8-mormons-jehovahs-witnesses-and-joel.html

Noble though the concept of human rights may be, the Bible doesn’t necessarily embrace them. Does it celebrate the human right of unlimited free speech? Sometimes it celebrates shutting people up:

“It is necessary to shut their mouths, because these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.” (Titus 1:11)

I have no problem acknowledging “apostates” get some credit for this. I said so with regard to the May 2019 WT that reproach for CSA falls on the abuser, not the one who reports it.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/02/the-reproach-of-child-sexual-abuse-falls-on-the-abu.html

Everything in life is action/reaction, and the constant efforts of some of them have served to highlight an injustice. Once people leave the Christian organization, it is easy to lose track of them, and these “whistleblowers,” if they want to be called that, did not allow that to happen. In fact, for ones who stayed true in all other areas, they might afterwards resume their place and forever draw satisfaction from what contribution they have made. 

They rarely do, however. One of the most striking things about “apostates” is that they eventually throw EVERYTHING away. The unique combination of positive traits and beliefs that identify Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone—they discard it all.

 

@TrueTomHarley  I think it would be very difficult, impossible in fact, to be an honest whistle blower and stay inside JW Org.  If a person wishes to be totally honest in giving warning / making others aware of serious problems in the Org, then they would need to use their real name. Once the elders of his/her congregation became aware of what he/she was doing, then disfellowshippping would closely follow. Once a person becomes disfellowshipped their input is discredited by many. The only way to truly whistle blow about JW Org would be to leave the Org first, giving valid reasons for doing so. 

It is remarkable however that you @TrueTomHarley turn whistle blowers into apostates with just a flick of your fingers on your keyboard. I care not that you've put it in inverted commas, the accusation is still there. 

Who knows, if enough of these whistle blowers got together, they could form another 'religion'. After all didn't Rutherford  & Co come from former religions and then build a new one ? These whistle blowers could simply carry over the good and discard the bad points of JW Org.   Come to think of it, Jesus' disciples did much the same. Carry over the good points from the Mosaic Law and discard the bits no longer needed, thereby forming the new way of serving God properly.  And they would have been seen as 'mentally ill' by the Jews. 

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I understand your concern about what the GB think, as they are supposed to be providing food at the proper time, and we are supposed to trust that this food is faultless. But sometimes it isn't. We know that although doing their best, the GB can still make mistakes. In that case, what is ultimately more important than what the GB says or thinks, is what Jehovah says and thinks. This is what I had in mind. By reading several related scriptures it becomes evident that the answer to your concern is that we have to leave it in Jehovahs hands, fully trusting that he is the reader of hearts and is perfectly just and loving, and would NEVER destroy anyone unjustly, even if in our opinion they did the most horrible things. So within this framework, it really doesn't matter what the GB think. Again I apologize, I really did not mean it to sound unloving, just factual. 

So when you mention that we have to be in line with the orgs. thoughts, yes, but first and foremost we have to be in line with Jehovah's thoughts.

Thank you @Anna I totally agree with this point. 

4 hours ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990129063340/http://www.dhcommhr.coe.fr/eng/28626CP.E.html

Press communiqué issued by the Secretary

to the European Commission of Human Rights

Application No. 28626/95

Khristiansko Sdruzhenie "Svideteli na Iehova"

(Christian Association Jehovah's Witnesses)

v.

Bulgaria

Quote:

As regards the alleged involvement of children the applicant association submits that children cannot become members of the association but only participate, together with their parents, in the religious activities of the community. In respect of the refusal of blood transfusion, the applicant association submits that there are no religious sanctions for a Jehovah's Witness who chooses to accept blood transfusion and that, therefore, the fact that the religious doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is against blood transfusion cannot amount to a threat to "public health".

A few questions please, if i may. 

Were the GB / Watchtower Soc' actually saying here that children cannot get baptised as JW's ? 

Were they also saying that full blood transfusions were permissible within JW Org ? 

Were that saying this in order to get money from somewhere ?

Or were they saying it in order to get permission to preach ?

@James Thomas Rook Jr. To quote you , if i may.

"THIS is what will drive any change .... not love ... not justice ...not fairness .... MONEY!"

Are you here talking about the 'Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses' ? 

Or are you talking only about it's Governing Body ? 

Whichever it may be, you seem to be saying that this is not God's chosen organisation. 

I fear that God no longer has any earthly organisation. 

However, as usual, off topic  . 

Do you have an answer to your original question yet ? 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Like it really matters though 😀

@Anna Well if the GB are right and only those baptised JW's will survive the Judgement time at Armageddon, then one would have to be thinking in line with the Org's thoughts. And as I said originally the 'information' or misinformation was given to me by an elder. Elders are supposed to be up to date with all the latest thoughts coming forth from the top HQ, the GB.  As it matters to me personally because I have hopes of some that have committed suicide getting a resurrection, then I am interested to know how those 'taking the lead'  feel on this subject.   I do find it strange that when i ask such a straight forward question, I cannot get a straight answer. Many here seem to be long standing JW's, some probably are elders, so all I was wanting was a clear answer on the subject.  I must say Anna that your last comment does not show warm Christian love. 

11 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Not of K Halls. Of people who love respond to the good news. Eventually. they will no longer come you know.... 

We have brothers who live 2 minutes from the KH and cannot get there. No one misses out where I come from. They can hear and watch on line and association is laid on for them. Brothers provide transport, not congregations. The important thing is for love to abound in your heart, and to be evident in deed and truth. You will not notice the lack in others if that is the case.What has happened to you?

Um, what has happened to me ?  Well I think my head has come out of the clouds and I am now seeing reality. 

19 minutes ago, John Houston said:

No, the whole thing is that we are talking about something we have no control over. We neither gave life or the life we can take can either be given back by us.. so let us acquiesce to the very one the only One who can remember those worthy to be recalled from the grave. And do our very best to be around to see these called from the memorial tombs. All this now is worthless chatter, because we may ourselves be in need of that very hope before it is over!

I was only asking the present view of suicide from the Organisational point of view.  

Going back to original topic here. The man should not have 'put all his eggs in one basket' it seems.. 

It is sad that his business suffered though (if true) as his being shunned might have been 'punishment' enough.

I would have thought he would have had legal contracts for his business which would mean that customers would be under legal contract to continue business as usual. It does show the lack of love from JW's though, if they deliberately caused problems to his business. 

44 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

I have not experienced where the organization has told anyone what they should do with their money. Contribute, yes, how much no! Perhaps I’m attending the wrong Watchtower.

Does any witness need to get a second job to contribute, no. Are there witnesses that have a second job to expand themselves beyond their means, yes? Are there witnesses that have a second and third job in order to support their family needs, yes. Not everyone was forged with the economic ease as certain people might. Are those better off in the organization better than anyone else, no.

It seems the message of riches is being lost with what scripture meant as a simple life. The organization has advised witnesses to prepare themselves financially in case of an emergency. Doesn’t that imply, saving money and using money wisely just in case?

*** g 6/14 p. 15 How to Control Spending ***

DAVID AND NATALEINE

“Plan ahead. Don’t assume that all the money you have in the bank is available to spend. If you don’t keep money in reserve, you’ll never be prepared for emergencies, such as car repairs.

Wouldn’t that spiritual food be in line with scripture?

Luke 14:28

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?

I don’t see the difference when it comes to smart spending with the organization. I would be critical if it was just my money, but then again it isn’t. I have no doubt, there are better qualified people at the headquarters to handle the Watchtower financial portfolio than any ordinary witness.

The day each GB member sports a 10 million dollar mansion, or fly on a personal 15 million dollar jet, or have a 1 million dollar car to drive them 10 miles (ca. 16 km), then I will complain.

 

Um mansions you say. The  Org not having money people say. So tell me what this is all about please ? 

IBSA = JW Org / Watchtower soc'  Do ya wanna buy a mansion for over a million pounds ? 

https://ibsaproperty.com/ 

Wow, Having missed only two hours on here, I am now 3 pages behind. Makes it rather difficult to keep up and even more so when the subject changes so much on each topic. 

I do think there is a vast difference in what the 'early Christians' said and did as opposed to what the J W Org / GB say and do now.  Someone mentioned about  'those not with us now that were formerly with us', as part of a scripture (you see i do find it difficult to relate to it all ) . But the scripture was concerning those 'early Christians' which were inspired of God and of the Anointed. They would have known 'pure' truth from the Hebrew scriptures, and also have been guided directly by God through Christ and through Holy Spirit. 

How can anyone relate that to a Governing Body that admit that they are not inspired of God ? How can you relate that to an Organisation that is so big, that the Governing Body is totally out of touch with it ?  A Governing Body that admit that they do wrong (err), as well as make mistakes.  

Having followed this 'blog' for a long time, I've seen / read, many here that have given proof of 'mistakes' / wrong doing by the Governing Body, the Writing Department, Elders et al.  So how can a person compare a scripture which relates to the pure worship of God through Christ, of those first century Christians. It makes no sense. In the time of the disciples/ apostles, true worship was direct, because the 'group of people' involved was small. The Greek scriptures were written directly by those actually hands on, doing daily work, and having direct guidance. What can we say now ? No one is inspired by God. No one is pure. The Governing Body give themselves the tittle of F & D S, but it proves nothing, because they get so much wrong.  We've also seen by written examples here on this blog , that the elders do not show the love and care for the 'flock'. 

I do however like the idea of the 'Apostasy spectrum' because the word apostate is banded about by those in the J W org just as an excuse not to talk to or mix with someone, even if said J W knows nothing about the reason someone is no longer attending meetings or has left the Org. 

I would talk personally with Arauna when she says, a person can only be an apostate to the truth. My answer is, But truth changes week by week in J W Org. 

Mr Rook, I thought the Charity Commission here in the UK were thinking of stopping the 'allowances' too, but it hasn't happened yet. 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

The Governing Body are often compared to Moses. *Though why is anyone's guess, as GB are not inspired) 

However, I tend to think on this. Although Moses did many good things in line with God's instructions, he did disobey God.

If my thinking is correct, Moses was told to 'speak to the rock' not to hit it. 

Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the congregation to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting and fell on their faces. The glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord spoke to Moses and said, "Take the staff, and then with Aaron your brother assemble all the community and, in front of them all, speak to the rock and it will yield water. You shall bring forth for them water from the rock, for them and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he had commanded him. Then he and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock, and said to them, "Listen to me, you rebels. Shall we bring forth water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed forth in abundance, and they all drank, men and beasts.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not lead this assembly into the land which I promised to give them."  

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I think there is a lesson here to be learnt.  It seems that Moses jumped ahead of following God's instructions. It seems as if Moses was putting himself in the place of God. "Shall WE bring forth water.. " Instead of saying God will give you water.  

Does the Governing Body jump ahead of God's instructions ? 

Moses also called God's people 'rebels'.   Does the Governing Body judge God's people as rebels ?

We know for FACT that the Governing Body  'are not inspired of God' and that they 'make mistakes and err'.  So do they in fact deliberately run ahead of God's instructions ?  

This topic is about Apostates. But could not the Governing Body become apostates if they run ahead of God's instructions and deliberately make things up to suit their own needs ?  (the overlapping generations as one example). 

Mentally diseased. Who are we to judge ? Are the Governing Body using that term to their own advantage ?

Remember that Moses took it into his own head to take control "Shall WE bring forth water .. " 

Jesus spoke of water as a 'living water' 'life giving water', I believe. But we know Jesus was highly approved by his heavenly Father.   Is the water coming forth from the Governing Body, 'life giving water' from above ? Or is it man made 'water' and of no real use ?

Therefore if a person genuinely believes that the 'water' coming forth from the Governing Body is not approved of by Almighty God, and if then that person chooses to leave the Organisation, are they really 'mentally diseased apostates ?  I think Almighty God will decide through Jesus Christ as judge.. 

46 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Wasted resource. Mostly empty. etc,etc,etc. .Fill 'em, share 'em, or shut 'em.....what's the problem? These are not churches.

Anyone can have a minibus?  Where on earth do you live??

True Christians travel as far as it takes to get to meetings...and help others to get there too. Where on earth do you live??

Um, empty K H's when the Governing Body say we are so close to the 'end of this system'. I thought there was supposed to be a massive influx near the end, not empty K H's. 

Actually it is quite difficult for a private person to get insurance for a minibus here in the UK.  The government seem to think it has to be for business use. And congregations will not support the running of a minibus, and elders make that clear. 

As for 'true Christians' travelling as far as it takes. That is not a loving thought. I know of older brothers and sisters that cannot drive in the dark. I think that here in the UK half of every congregation is old people. So where is this love that should abound in the 'truth' ?  

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You cannot economically justify having a baby ... but willy-nilly ... people DO have babies.

Some things are more important than economic justification.

So why do those in charge decide to close Kingdom Halls, which then make it more difficult for many people to get to the 'new location' ? And why does the Org forbid the idea of having minibuses in congregations to take the elderly and perhaps the poorer families to meetings ? (And the use of such might also be good for the environment). I think this shows a lack of love toward the 'flock'. Don't the scriptures tell us to 'look after widows and orphans' ? And shouldn't that be on a regular basis ?  Not everyone has a seven seater car to pick people up in .   I also think that making people travel further to meetings does not encourage the new ones to go to meetings. 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks @Matthew9969 for using WT magazines. This articles shows how GB want to present us, how mental illness was not started with "apostates" in recent time.

Wording "mental illness" is connect with WT Society context about result, outcome that is seen in JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000 class. 

They numbered several reasons why some JW member thinks about self as King and Priest aka part of 144000. They say:

in 1996

-after a while they acknowledged that this was an error

-an emotional response

-perhaps physical or mental strain

in 2011

-past religious beliefs

-mental or emotional imbalance 

in 2016

-mistakenly think that they are anointed

-mental or emotional problems 

It is obvious how WT Society is organization who looks on one part of members as people who have not mental and emotional balance. Perhaps GB say so, because of Jesus words how he is send to ill, sick people, and that also including physical, mental and emotional defects.

But we see how GB put this explanation on exactly one specific class or group of individuals inside organization - "anointed". On all anointed individuals who are outside of GB... or Helpers. Well, here we see how few anointed  individuals who are in position to call themselves as FDS who sharing spiritual food, decided to sending message through publications how only them are mentally, physically and emotionally in perfect health. All other are in question.  

Well, where insane people living? Inside or outside sanatorium?  

Does this way of thinking actually come from the 'world' ?  It seems to be a away of taking away the credibility of people.

I'm sure it's the type of thing you see in films, when someone wants to make another person feel insecure, or wants to make a person doubt themselves. 

If in fact the Governing Body are NOT inspired, then how would they actually know if someone else was ?  And i do think their attitude is passed down to the elders. 

A bit off topic but I had a funny thought.

Sometimes the Organisation is compared to Noah's Ark. However there were only EIGHT humans in that Ark and the rest were dumb animals that were controlled by those EIGHT humans.

Um how many members of the Governing Body are there ? Oh yes EIGHT.  And who in control of the Org ? Those EIGHT humans. Does make a person wonder exactly what the Governing Body thinks of all the rest in their Ark. 

I do thank everyone for answers, both serious and funny, but my only point was, if there was very 'new light' from the Governing Body on this subject. 

Sorry I'm jumping in on this one and not really familiar with all comments, but has anyone mentioned that 'it had been thought' in the past, that non Witness husbands/wives of baptised JW's might well be 'saved' at Armageddon. Saved through the faith in God and Christ that the married JW had. Is this still the thought or would the spouse not be saved ? The thought of the married couple being 'as one'. 

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Don't think it is new light. Don't be disturbed by anything you hear. Start doing research.  It is easy when you are on the computer.

People in the organization always used to think one would not get a resurrection if they committed suicide. However, please read  the powerful statement mentioned at the end of this answer to a question from readers (in 2002). Go to the article and read it in full. Continue to do research.

 

*** w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

….

Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved." End Quote

 

Underscoring = mine

 

 

 

Thank you, i have read this already, but it isn't very recent.. My main point was to find out if the Governing Body / Writing Dept' has very recently written anything new regarding suicide. In the last 6 month maybe ? 

My personal feelings are that God, through Jesus Christ, will resurrect all those that they find worthy. And that 'worthiness' cannot be judged by any human. Thanks again.

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Thank you for your comment. I did read about King Saul and his circumstances. 

Are you therefore saying, there is no 'new light' on this subject ? 

I was in conversation with an elder last week (or maybe two weeks ago) and I don't quite know how we got onto the topic but we started talking about suicide. I was a bit surprised when he said "But don't commit suicide or you will not get a resurrection". 

I was wondering where exactly this information comes from. Having recovered from the shock, I have since emailed this elder and got no response. I have looked on JW Org and read a couple of older articles on there, but they seemed to say that it is or was not their place to judge, which i agree with. 

So, is there 'new light' on the subject of suicide ? If so where does this new light come from ? And what scriptures back up this 'new light' ?

I will willingly read any recent articles that are passed on to me, as this latest information, if it is true, i find disturbing. I know of many people that have committed suicide, both inside and outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation.