JW Insider

There are about 4 sides to this story, and each has a little bit of truth to it. The one with the most truth and the most evidence behind it is the one that Allen Smith (PhD) gives here:

https://www.fedsmith.com/2013/10/11/ronald-reagan-and-the-great-social-security-heist/

This differs from another version, actually almost identical to SSA's own version, found on the same Website, https://www.fedsmith.com/2015/12/08/the-myth-of-the-missing-social-security-trust-fund/

But if you read between the lines, it's easy to see that most of the second version is just spin (propaganda) that actually ends up supporting the first link. It inadvertently admits many of the key points necessary to understand the fraud. The first link blames Reagan, Greenspan and Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama, who have given evidence that they actually understood the scheme, but were happy to go along with it. My youngest son, in 2012, took economics courses from his university's Economics Dept Chair, who was simultaneously one of Obama's primary economics advisors. My son came away from these classes believing that economics at this school was the most corrupt of all their departments, claiming to teach modern western economics as if it were a science, but angrily denouncing certain questions about facts as if they were really running a cult.

At any rate the first link must be read before a realistic discussion of Social Security can start. The basic idea is that Reagan and Greenspan were con men who ripped off the SSA for $2.7 Trillion with no plan to pay back a cent. They needed it because supply-side "trickle-down economics" (Reaganomics) was a complete failure, but they couldn't admit it. The money was used to avoid an even bigger deficit and was used in order pay for the highest priority government programs like:

• temporary, pseudo-tax breaks for middle class that can be nullified through fees and other new costs put upon the middle class (including the taxing of Social Security by Reagan),
• actual permanent tax breaks for the rich,
• spending to enrich military contractors,
• slush funds for internal government spending.

5 hours ago, The Librarian said:

Oh wait... it is already "unfixable".

One point of the article is that SSA is not unfixable because it was never broken in the first place. These 20-year-out projections have always been lies that were not based in reality. There is no fund to dip into. It is true that there is borrowing trouble now, but the plan to cover population age disparity was already built into the fund that Reagan figured out how to "loot." It was exactly what would have now been needed to cover the level of borrowing that is now being done to cover the next 20 years, until the age population disparity evens out again.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The same kind of debate that was given in 2014 between Bill Nye and Ken Ham

Bill Nye is more of a "promoter" than a scientist. He definitely does not belong in the same category as Richard Feynman. I've read two of Feynman's books and they are really good, and reflect true science. I loved "What do you care what other people think?" because it draws non-scientists into his world.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The 1975 fiasco. Where is the argument in Watchtower literature that relates to the world ending according to the conspiracy theorist? Don’t give nonsensical replies, that it was implied by convention talks, thanks.

Echos of your doppelgangers here. They always have said the same thing about the 1975 fiasco. It's true that no Watchtower literature ever contained a prediction that Armageddon would arrive in 1975. The point was that at some time in the 1970's we should expect Armageddon to be no further than a matter of months, not years, away.

*** km 9/73 p. 1 par. 4 Intensive Tract Distribution ***

• Why is the distribution being done in such an intensive manner? Because of the impact that this will have on the public. People talk to one another, and they will soon realize that nearly everyone they know was served with the same urgent message. This will make a far deeper impression than would a gradual distribution over many months. Furthermore, we realize that the time remaining for this wicked world is greatly reduced. Opportunity for people to learn the truth and take their stand on Jehovah’s side is fast running out.

*** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***

• Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.

I started regular pioneering in the summer of 1973 and quit school even though I was technically still 15 years old, turning 16 before the next school year. I have to admit, it felt good being one of those statistics. My parents then, as a favor, sold our time-consuming farm worth about $50,000 (1974) at the time for only $10,000 to a brother and moved us all into the city. The brother we sold it to broke up the old farm acres into several subdivisions, got power and septic tanks to all the lots, and probably made a million dollars by now. He's no longer a Witness (and recently died too) but several Witness families still live on those acres.

And of course, quitting high school at age 15 was not just recommended by circuit overseers. It was the subtext of the following prophecy made in Watch Tower publications in 1969, preparing us for "What Will the 1970s Bring?":

**g69 5/22 p.15

• "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. . . . . Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!" Awake!1969 May 22 p.15 

And all of it was based on a totally unbiblical belief that each of the 7 creative days were 7,000 years in length, which supposedly made it significant that we were evidently coming up on then being 6,000 years into that seventh day. Why ever bring up the 6,000 years since Adam if we weren't pushing its supposed but unbiblical significance?

*** w68 8/15 p. 499 pars. 29-30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***

• That means, in the fall of the year 1975, a little over seven years from now (and not in 1997 as would be the case if Ussher’s figures were correct), it will be 6,000 years since the creation of Adam, the father of all mankind!   Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.

Then of course, in 1972 and 1973 the Watchtower promoted the "Ezekiel" book and other publications with the statement that the faithful and discreet slave was a prophet. Not just a "prophet" with quotes around it, but literally, a prophet. This was not very different from statements like this one in 1924 referring to Rutherford and another like him:

*** g1924 p.149 ***

• " . . . Judge Rutherford is permeated with the real Biblical and prophetic spirit, ceases not in his discourse to defy the devil and throw (morally) an inkwell into his face, as the deceased Luther did. . . . This year 1924 is worse than 1914."

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you know why the 'other sister' got fired ?

Yes. I know exactly why but it would not (or should not) be of much interest to anyone here. Since I brought it up, it was not through anything conspiratorial, or finding out "where the bodies were buried" so to speak. [That's an inside joke about Rutherford, by the way.]  She merely had shown a bit too much ambition in trying to get higher profile assignments, which wasn't too much of a problem until she was caught interfering with the assignments that others got in the apparent hopes of accomplishing this end.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

He is frightened of being told off by the Elders of the congregation, for contacting me. 

You can interpret it as being frightened of the Elders, but could it be that they are frightened of displeasing Jehovah and going against "His" arrangement?

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Aren't there women in the writing room of the W/T and Awake mags ? Or there were for sure.

There are. Some people think that Barbara Anderson was the only female in the Writing Department. She was not. There are some even now. They aren't the ones who write the study articles or the scripture-based articles in the Watchtower, but many of the Awake! articles are written by them from start to finish. When the "Insight" book was being prepared, over a hundred Bethelites were given assignments to take on various articles to update the "Aid" book. More than a dozen sisters were given these assignments too. Even while Barbara Anderson was in Writing there was another sister getting similar research assignments, after doing a good job on some "Insight" work. and research assignments often come with the assignment to write up a draft article about it that might get used with very few changes. This other sister got "fired" before Barbara Anderson left, and no sisters sat in the Writing Department, per se, for quite a while. (I don't know for sure how long, but it was a matter of years.) But this didn't last forever, and sisters have been back in the Writing Dept (officially as "Researchers") for years now.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What I did find impressive, that a marketer and management person found time to write a thesis on the JW’s. Some bias, but not fully aware. ?

You found a different Harvinder Singh.

• Harvinder Singh  University of Birmingham, Philosophy, Theology and Religion, Postgraduate Student   
• Theology and Religion Studied English Literature and Language at The University of Leicester.
• I am currently studying the MA in Religion, Politics and Society at The University of Birmingham.
• I am particularly Interested in researching New World Religions (NRMs), particularly Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity, and Scientology.
• Supervisors: Prof. Nicholas Adams

It's one of many papers he has written. This latest supports what you said earlier:

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower doesn’t need the government to tell it what to do, but they do make adjustments to the laws given. This is no different than us obeying local laws when changes are made.

Here is the full list of his current contributions to academia.com

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How should a responsible journalist approach reporting on the subject of religion?

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Are governments obliged to intervene if Human Rights are violated in other countries? When and on what grounds?

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What is the most convincing explanation for the emergence of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria?

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How has the United States of America countered ISIS? (Poster)

This is a poster that I had produced for the module: Understanding and Countering Radical Islamic... more

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Critical review of two empirical studies

This is a critical review of two empirical studies which are relevant towards my dissertation inv... more

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Identify and evaluate the main challenges ISIS (the so-called Islamic State) poses to the secular international system?

This is an assignment that I have written for the post graduate taught module: Religion in Contem... more

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Discuss the role the Indian government played if any in the 1984 November Sikh riots?

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks for link. But i do not see what is on page 76 about G.J. quote. Please help.

It's not on page 76. It's a document that is 76 pages long on the topic of how Jehovah's Witnesses have adapted their child abuse protection policies in different ways depending on the law in various countries. It appears to the author that this is inconsistent and unexpected in a religion that takes a stand as if Witnesses know better than the national laws, and that the Bible authority would allow Witnesses to stand above the law. But the author does not understand that such an outcome can actually be a sign of a consistent recognition of Romans 13:1-5. Still, it's a pretty fair assessment and presentation of the problem and doctrinal/historical response among Witnesses. A few things wrong, but more right than wrong.

16 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is contrary to Geoffrey Jackson deposition before ARC in 2015. He told then that would be easier for GB and WT if Government made clear statement what they as secular ruler expect from JW Church aka GB and WT  

Just read a 76 page treatise on exactly this point and it makes use of the ARC info. https://www.academia.edu/37425975/How_have_the_Jehovahs_Witnesses_adapted_child_safeguarding_practices_and_guidance_to_local_circumstances_in_the_United_States_of_America_England_and_Australia

I don't think the person has any connection to JWs or anti-JWs.

22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.  

You should pay closer attention to exactly how SM answered this supposed claim that he was not (or is not) a Witness. Others have made this claim for him, but watch closely to see if he has ever made this claim about himself (up until now, at least). Positioning oneself here as a Restorationist Christian is not the same as claiming that one is not a JW. I think it might be a "ninja" thing. ?

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If that person is allowed to remain in the Organisation, are the members of their congregation informed that this person is a proven Pedophile. Or, are the members of the same congregation informed that there is a Pedophile within their congregation.  As far as I know the congregants are not informed...

The congregation, as a rule, is not informed formally, on purpose. My parents are in a congregation where a molester, former elder, had been disfellowshipped and apparently no one knew or said anything about the reasons for two years until he was reinstated last year. But rumors of the offense got around in the congregation immediately after his reinstatement, and the brother and his family (??!!??) have moved to another congregation. I believe the procedure has been just inform the elders of the new congregation, and tell them to keep a close watch and not return his privileges.

Naturally, there are more cases where the knowledge of child abuse gets known in the congregation through other secular channels, newspapers, media, law enforcement, sex offender lists. The rumors can even start through a fellow family member who hates the molestor.

The housing crisis in SF is manufactured for purposes of gentrification and pushing Latino communities, for example, out to Oakland. The city takes its housing crisis very seriously!

My daughter worked for a man whose company was sold a couple years ago to a a hedge fund for about $30 million, and he is now flipping buildings in SF with his money. The city is geared to only cater to the very rich.

(Not that the couple didn't cheat the system to compete with "hotels" but this couple is being used as a "warning" to others who try to do the same.)

On 11/6/2018 at 8:22 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

This thread has become a catch-all. so it is as good a place as any to let @JW Insider know that his old acquaintance John Taylor Gatto recently died.

Thanks for this information. Unfortunately, yes, he died 2 weeks ago. Another acquaintance of ours (of my wife's mostly) called us to let us know. John Gatto was like the guy from the ad for Dos Equis beer: "The Most Interesting Man in the World."

Now and then some of the best minds end up in the same place at the same time. (I include my wife, who was once nominated for Teacher of the Year in NYC, and John Gatto, of course, who actually won the city and state and got nominated for the National award.) Even the woman who told us was another who worked together with John for a couple of years. She is African American and went on to open some excellent charter schools in California, and helped shake up the education system around San Francisco/Oakland. One of her sisters was Gwen Ifil, who recently died from cancer after a professional career mostly in political broadcasting, gaining national and presidential attention. Another sister of hers has gained national attention as a lawyer. Another man who was a good friend of mine at the same place where my wife, John and Gwen's sister worked, had an amazing mind, and then joined a "cult." (EST)

(Hey, they can't all be winners.)

The "obit" over at the JTG blog doesn't tell half the story. But here are some bits from there about John Gatto (emphasis mine):

• After college, John worked as a scriptwriter in the film business, was an advertising writer, a taxi driver, a jewelry designer, an ASCAP songwriter, and a hotdog vendor before becoming a schoolteacher.
• During his school teaching years he also entered the caviar trade, conducted an antique business, operated a rare book search service, and founded Lava Mt. Records, a documentary record producer, which won several awards for cover design and content, and which presented the horror of H.P. Lovecraft, dramatized, and the speeches of Richard M. Nixon and Spiro Agnew, exactly as given.
• In 1991, despite being the two-time New York State Teacher of the Year, he quit school teaching . . .
• Later that year he produced a show at Carnegie Hall called “The Exhausted School” where he explored innovative forms of respectful learning, which launched a career of public speaking.
• In 1992, he was named Secretary of Education in the Libertarian Party Shadow Cabinet, and he has been included in Who’s Who in America from 1996 on. In 1997, he was given the Alexis de Tocqueville Award . . .
• In 2011, he co-created . . .  an epic 5 hour video interview exploring the history of education, political power, and freedom that was released in 2012.

As Witnesses we no longer had time to stay in touch after he left the academy where my wife was a fellow teacher. We made use of an apartment he owned in Alicante, Spain a couple of times. And I once procured a small library of hard-to-find books for him based on a valuable donation to a NYC library that the library had no idea what to do with. Over the years, I've noticed his name involved in things I had no idea about at the time.

He left his politics out of the school, but brought excitement and energy to learning. The later academic and professional success of the students always reminded me of "wisdom is proved righteous by its works." (Matthew 11:19)

Excellent research. We have long used the "inculcate them in your sons" phrase to teach that literacy was high among the Jewish population. This would have been the ideal if everyone followed the Law. But there are as many pieces of opposing "evidence." And I agree that there is no hard evidence on either side.

2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Concerning the 1^st century, one of the favorite sayings of Jesus in rebuttal to his accusers was: “Have you not read…” This not only implied literacy to his opponents

Expressions like, "have you not read?" are actually found very rarely in the Bible. And if you note the context, it's always with reference to Pharisees and Sadducees which fits the previous points made.  To more common people, such as those who heard Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, the expression, even when quoting written scripture, is: "You heard that it was said. . ." It's found six times in the Sermon on the Mount alone. There are no examples of Jesus mentioning "reading" except when chief priests, scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees were the focus of attention. (Even Jesus' question about "Whose inscription was on the coin?", by the way, was directed at Pharisees.) So the same point made by the blogger could be taken as evidence against the literacy of the common man.

2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

why would he use the phrase against his accusers, if they could turn around and cast his own words in his teeth to point out the illiteracy of his followers?

But apparently they did!

Certain kinds of merchants, including house stewards who were the ones required to trade with merchants for foodstuffs and household supplies, might require a knowledge of money and writing. That is acknowledged. (Luke 16:6-7) And Joshua ben Gamala's potential reforms, as a chief priest married to a wealthy woman from the priestly Boethos family, were precisely because education --even of 16 and 17 year olds-- had been an exclusive privilege of the rich. The very fact that he hoped for a change in this regard could be used as more evidence of common illiteracy.

13 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

There is prudence in terming the holy writings as "All Scripture". If he had said the "Jewish Scriptures", or some other time-rooted descriptor, then there would have been room for dispute over what constituted those writings, perhaps falling into the hands of the Judaizers

Good points, especially from our current vantage point in time. On the latter point in the above quote, Paul could be said to have dealt with that issue, by the admission that Scripture was "Jewish Scripture" in the following verse:

• (Romans 3:1, 2) . . .What, then, is the advantage of the Jew, or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 A great deal in every way. First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God.

Yet the immediate context, plus the entire book as further context, provides the explanation against misuse of this statement by Judaizers:

• (Romans 2:29) . . .But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. . . .

Made in America - Sold to the World

ME

It's a good thing there are no anti-GB meme makers around here!

4 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The reference is to Acts 4:13 where this description of the apostles Peter and John appears: "unlettered and ordinary". The use of the word agrammatoi could be understood as "illiterate" in respect of it's literal meaning  of being "without letters".

True. Also, it was an accusation from outsiders and therefore not necessarily an accurate reflection. But there is also the fact that it is not rebutted in Acts, and it fits what Jesus said about revealing truths not to the wise and intellectual. 

• (Matthew 11:25) . . .At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children."

Paul recognized the same point, and even spurned his own educational training as worthless.

We can also combine this with the fact that of the original 12 apostles, only two of them, Matthew and John, were ever credited with writing a gospel account. But even this is based on later traditions. Nowhere, in any of the gospels do we even see the names of the writers, whether Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. There was an early tradition that Matthew had written a gospel and that it was originally in Hebrew (Aramaic), but this gospel could not have been the one we now call Matthew. There was also a well-known gospel called the "Gospel of Peter" that probably originated in the second century, but might have even been written in the first century while the apostles were still alive. In spite of the name, it was not taken seriously after the second century, and the "Gospel of Mark" was seen as Peter's gospel through a "second" hand.

4 hours ago, Outta Here said:

But it has long been held that the phrase has reference to those who are "unlettered"  in the sense of not having had formal religious training in a Rabbinic school of the day.

Yes. The Watchtower has referenced this view.

*** w09 7/1 p. 4 1. Ask the Author for Help ***

• Jesus’ apostles were considered “unlettered and ordinary” because they had not attended rabbinic schools for religious training. (Acts 4:13) Nevertheless, Jesus assured them that understanding God’s Word was within their reach.

Although the very next year, the Watchtower moved back to the idea of illiteracy in language education.

*** w10 10/1 p. 30 Speaking in Tongues—Is It From God? ***

• Spreading the good news to that extent would require the use of many tongues other than Hebrew.  However, many of those early disciples were “unlettered and ordinary.” (Acts 4:13) How, then, would they be able to preach in distant lands where languages were spoken that they may never have heard of, let alone learned to speak? Holy spirit empowered some of those zealous preachers with the miraculous ability to preach fluently in languages they had never before learned to speak.

I have read the view that many Judeans of this time and even many more Galileans and Samaritans never learned Greek, but knew and spoke only their form of Aramaic (sometimes called "Hebrew" as in the above quote from the 2010 Watchtower). Being unlettered (illiterate) in the sense of not knowing how to read and write in your language even if you spoke it fluently, is considered an insult to one's intelligence in most societies today. But illiteracy was very common in the first century, and no one expected anyone to be able to read and write except a certain level of soldier required to send reports, certain types of merchants, and the rabbis who would need to learn to read for the synagogue services. Not even the average tax collector needed to know how to read and write, even though we now tend to think of some kind of accountant/scribe.

Because we anachronistically consider it to be such an insult, we think we are coming to the defense of the apostles by saying that this was only referring to a special level of illiteracy and a technical meaning of "ordinary."  We forget that "rabbinical schools for religious training" were precisely where persons learned to read and write. This is why even the persons we would today call civil lawyers came out of this same class of education (Pharisees, scribes). Josephus, for example, rose in military rank in Galilee due to his rabbinic training, i.e., literacy. After his capture by the Romans, he maneuvered quickly into Roman acceptance due in large part to literacy.  

I'm glad you pointed out one of the meanings of idiotai, as it would be easy for English readers to only see the insulting cognate when the original term did not have the meaning "idiot."

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 So where is one supposed to start ? If you are saying that the Bible might not be the book it should be. 

The Bible is the perfect book it should be. But we should discern the spirit of the Christian message and not be distracted with so many lower-priority details that we miss the forest for the trees. As brought up in the post to @Outta Here we need to be alert to what we are being taught. If we understand the "spirit" of the message and the "priorities" we will not be quickly shaken from our reason in believing a message has apostolic authority when it really was just some speculation over less important details:

• (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) . . .we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us. . .

I think most of us would agree that the idea of priority of the objective has been perfectly met in the Bible, and is perfectly encapsulated in 1 Timothy:

• (1 Timothy 1:5-7) . . .Really, the objective of this instruction is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. 6 By deviating from these things, some have been turned aside to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of law, but they do not understand either the things they are saying or the things they insist on so strongly.

11 hours ago, Outta Here said:

What part would the gift of "discerning the spirits" (as some translate 1Cor.12:10) have had in Paul's evaluating the spiritual credentials of religious writings available at the time?

Yes. Excellent point. I believe it has everything to do with it, and I believe that Paul was well aware of the responsibility and understood very uniquely from his own situation why such a spiritual gift was so important. After all, he was not one who had heard Jesus speak personally during Jesus' earthly life, and Paul at times, had to rebuke the very apostles who had such influence on others. The idea, I think, is even carried in the verse in the context of the idea of making sure of the more important things:

• (Philippians 1:9-10) 9 And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound still more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; 10 that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not stumbling others up to the day of Christ;

Of course, Paul also made good and purposeful use of extra-Scriptural references which also were "useful for setting things straight and disciplining in righteousness," but in order for future congregations to be built especially upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Paul knew that, not just the Hebrew Scriptures, but also the authority of the apostles would become both the doctrinal and practical foundation of the congregations. He had to set things straight even among the other apostles, and the apostles were able to give Paul counsel, too. (Gal 2:10)

Fortunately, we don't need now to question anything that comes through the authority of the apostles. But we still need to follow the same principle of discernment that Paul used when questioning and accepting doctrine.

• (Hebrews 5:12-14) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

Today, of course, we also need to be reliant upon good scholarship to avoid acceptance of certain statements that do not have "foundational" apostolic authority and yet have crept into our Bible texts. It's a modern form of the same spiritual gift of accurate knowledge (and full discernment.) 1 John 5:7.8 is the best example, The New World Translation committee has accurately removed the non-authoritative parts of 1 John 5:7,8, but there are dozens of full verses removed in lesser-known examples found in some of the older texts (not usually the oldest texts) and found not to be as reliable, based on "textual criticism." Some of these omissions seem innocuous, but they are still without sufficient apostolic authority to keep in the context with the authoritative verses.

By calling our Christian Greek Scriptures "apostolic", we acknowledge that some were not written directly by apostles, because most of the apostles were evidently unlettered (illiterate) and required second-hand "secretaries" to record their first-hand experiences and memories. Writings by non-apostles were accepted on the basis that they were understood to have come from those with a direct relationship to the apostles, and who lived at the time of the apostles. The significance given to this idea comes through the statement from Paul that the number of eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection was known.

• (Luke 1:1, 2) 1 Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message delivered these to us,

• (2 Peter 1:16) 16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence.

  (Acts 1:21-23) . . .It is therefore necessary that of the men who accompanied us during all the time in which the Lord Jesus carried on his activities among us, 22 starting with his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us, one of these men should become a witness with us of his resurrection.” 23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barʹsab·bas, who was also called Justus, and Mat·thiʹas.

  (1 Corinthians 15:5-7) . . .and that he appeared to Ceʹphas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

   

18 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was this in it's way a small prophecy ?

Paul knew that Timothy was already well acquainted with the inspired Scriptures. So the reference would have been to the Hebrew Scriptures only at this time. This does not mean that Paul didn't recognize the status of at least some of his own letters or some parts of his own letters as "inspired." But it isn't likely Paul was referring to his own letters at this time, just the "Old Testament." Another question is whether Paul would have been thinking of the same set of books that we think of today. Some Jews and therefore some Jewish Christians might not have agreed on which books could be considered inspired (or partially inspired). I say partially, because some books had portions that included stories that were not considered inspired even if the primary portion of the book was considered inspired. (Daniel, Bel and the Dragon, Susannah and the Elders, etc., just as the book of John had a story about the near stoning of a woman caught in adultery, or Mark with both a short and long conclusion.

18 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However 1,2,3, John and Revelation were written much later.

It's merely a tradition that tells us that the writer of 1,2,3 John and Revelation were the same person. Based on the language and grammar, it seems unlikely to many scholars that it was the same John who wrote Revelation. (The gospel of John was  apparently written by the same person who wrote 1,2, &3 John.) Also, there is some good external and some internal evidence and tradition that Revelation was written close to 96-100 CE. But there have also been some excellent scholarly books pointing to the possibility that Revelation could have been written prior to 70 CE. (Prior to Jerusalem's destruction by the Romans.)

For that matter, there is considerable speculation among scholars that the letters to Titus and Timothy were developed, more likely between 100 CE and 150 CE. This does not mean that they were not "Pauline," but to some scholars they appear to be attempts to turn Paul's counsel into a set of semi-legalistic rules. They are more akin, stylewise, to the style and content one would find in the books of 1 Clement, Ignatius or Polycarp. (Some of the writings and letters by the latter could well have been written prior to 1 & 2 Timothy.) If they are Paul's own direct words, many scholars find some of them at odds with the "spirit" of Paul's words in Thessalonians, Philippians, Romans and Corinthians.

Books of Enoch, Jannes and Jambres, The Assumption of Moses, 12 Patriarchs, Epistle of Barnabas, etc., were clearly very popular in some Christian circles likely going all the way back to the first century CE. There were also several gospel accounts that the writer of Luke hoped to replace with the gospel of Luke. This could have been one of the reasons that 1 John 4:1 asks Christians to "test the inspired utterances."

Of course, Christians much closer to the time when these books were first known were in a better position to test which of them had real apostolic authority and which came from the actual time period of the apostles. Also, when scholars look at supposed contradictions and assume a late authorship they are often taking the easy way out. Some portions of the Bible were clearly intended so that we would look at things from two different perspectives. The variations in the gospel accounts do not cause any doctrinal problems but they show different perspectives. The difference in James' statement that 'a person is declared righteous by works and not by faith alone,' while Paul says that 'a person is declared righteous by faith and not by works' is clearly intentional. These perspectives actually help us to 'make sure of all things.'

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And all the while the Org / GB / Elders were hiding Pedophiles and allowing Child Abuse and using the Two Witness rule as an excuse. And would you tell me the GB are not hypocrites ? 

If things were exactly the same now, then yes, this would make them hypocrites. But it's a matter of what was actually "known" even though what we thought we "knew" was really based on assumptions. We assumed that fornication was a huge problem and pedophilia was a nearly non-existent problem. We probably also assumed that "kids" lie and elders tell the truth, because that has been built into the system for decades.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The deeply flawed British and American Armies saved your ass during WWII, from Nazi Tyranny, and the reason you are not a slave, or a Nazi

Hardly! Britain very nearly could not even save itself. And the USA made use of a 'get in there as late as possible' tactic which allowed all the other nations of imperialist leanings to lose power by the end of war.

The true credit goes to the Russians for holding out so long against the Nazis. To scale, it was more like this:

9 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

 I did not find the wording that I used to hear as a youth.  “Shun the very appearance of evil”. But this scripture appears to be saying the same thing.      1 Thessalonians 5:22-24

I think that hits the point exactly. The elders, especially during previous years, were directly taught at KM school (Elder Training) that the first time that there is suspicion of two persons of the opposite sex spending hours of time alone together, that there should be some kind of very strong counsel and even sanction due to the appearance alone, even if the elders were convinced that they were innocent of loose conduct. It was the same at Bethel, because there was a rule against being alone with a sister in your room unless the door was open, this meant that as soon as the door was closed, there should be strong counsel and even sanction. I knew that the rule was often broken, and I think that very few would turn someone else in, yet multiple infractions of the rule could mean dismissal.

If a couple of the opposite sex ever were seen to have contrived to be alone together, it was simply assumed that they went too far in their conduct with one another. The elder training gave examples of appropriate questions to ask, even if it was not overnight, and these questions assumed the worst, and would try to draw out a confession of "loose conduct." There would be a probation or loss of privileges of some kind, even if both vehemently denied any misconduct.

If the time spent together appeared contrived, and was overnight, especially if reported by a third party who saw a car parked overnight in front of the other person's house,  then the assumption was always that fornication had occurred and that any denial means the two are lying. The types of questions to be asked gave away the assumption of immorality and dishonesty. If they had previously been counseled, this could immediately escalate to disfellowshipping. 

Having been raised in the truth, and having gone to school in Missouri, I didn't realize until I went to college that many of our assumptions were similar to many of the fundamentalists around us. It wasn't just JWs but most old-time religionists, assuming that leaving two persons of the opposite sex alone together was always an instant recipe for fornication and/or adultery. If you listened to radio preachers you'd hear the same assumptions. Witnesses were also assuming that there was nothing else that young people could possibly be interested in.

It wasn't until after Bethel when I went to college that I realized that many persons were immoral, but also that many had morals likely superior to ours. And most surprisingly that many persons of the opposite sex actually lived together as roommates and still didn't ever worry about the topic of sex/fornication ever coming up. Now, I have seen statistics that show that teenage pregnancies were always much higher in the "Bible Belt." Perhaps part of the problem was in the assumption that young people have nothing better to do.

12 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Pour se calmer, il est également très important de ne pas oublier ses relations avec le Créateur. Jéhovah ne regarde pas d’un œil favorable ceux qui se réjouissent du malheur de leurs ennemis, car pareille attitude reflète un esprit vengeur. Or, dans Proverbes 24:17, 18, nous trouvons cet avertissement : “Quand ton ennemi tombe, ne te réjouis pas ; et quand il trébuche, que ton cœur ne soit pas joyeux, pour que Jéhovah ne le voie pas, et que cela ne soit pas mauvais à ses yeux.”

translate.google.com:

To calm down, it is also very important not to forget your relationship with the Creator. Jehovah does not look favorably upon those who rejoice over the misfortune of their enemies, for such an attitude reflects an avenging spirit. Now, in Proverbs 24:17, 18, we find this warning: "When your enemy falls, do not rejoice; and when it stumbles, let not your heart be joyful, that Jehovah may not see it, and that it shall not be evil in his sight."

Amazing that China, for example, generally builds robots to focus on building things, and the United States builds robots to keep the status quo. These particular robots make a good metaphor for the silicon valley economy. They are kept so that rich people can't be bothered or disturbed after exploiting properties through gentrification processes. SF is notorious for extremely low new building projects to keep real estate prices high, where most adjacent counties in California have much more unimproved and untouched acreage than acreage that has been built upon. In fact, even where SF will begin to expand is not into newly zoned areas for new building, except by encroaching upon Oakland so that additional gentrification processes can be used to remove the majority black and latino populations to rebuild Oakland as a playground for the rich. Silicon Valley has even been finding ways to aid this specific type of gentrification, even through social media, military and law enforcement support -- and Oakland was one of the first targets.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes with over 50 rooms 

At least most of those cars finally got cleared off the lot. "Urban Explorers" must still be a problem, though. I read somewhere that they keep breaking locks and cutting fences just to take a selfie at a place like this. Right?

Looks like quite a project. Perhaps someday it could become a "Wyndham" hotel.

Seriously, however, especially if permission to add the two 70 foot towers and botanical gardens works out, it would be a great place for corporate events, weddings, etc. In the US, we often made use of these out of the way locations for corporate events. Attendance was always low when events were held in Las Vegas, Atlanta, etc., and much higher at captive locations. With those planned hiking trails it would remind me of the last three I went to:

1. Mohonk House in New Paltz, New York
2. and another one in Amish/Mennonite country in rural Ohio,
3. and another one in Asheville, North Carolina, The [Vander]Biltmore).

I don't know how popular this idea is in the UK, but a French company I worked for would send us to a Bordeaux winery (that they owned) and then a "Club Med" in Normandy that was not a typical water-sports oriented Club Med. It was designed with a lot of garden-like pools and little bridges based on Monet/Manet paintings.