Witness

45 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

And Judas had that freedom of choice just as the Pharisees did, as all those who are wicked  “from youth up”.  Judas was an “anti-christ”, a “son of perdition”.  He had the freedom to change, to be cleansed through Jesus’ teachings but his heart held fast to wickedness.

Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” ¹¹ For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.  John 13:10-11

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” ⁷¹ (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)  John 6:70-71

Was God the “Father” of the Pharisees?

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.⁴³ Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. ⁴⁴ You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

Christ’s words leading to life were not hidden from the Pharisees or Judas.   They chose to remain wicked and follow in the footsteps of their father, Satan.  Judas was the “seed” of Satan, as were the Pharisees. 

And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and hers;
he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”  Gen 3:15

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Matt 12:34

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.  Matt 12:35

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
    from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Ps 58:3

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”  Matt 26:24

God already knew who would betray his Son, before Judas was ever born. 

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus at some point knew it was Judas.  It was prophesied that someone close would do it. Jesus would have discerned that it was Judas as he showed up his deviousness surrounding greed for money, among other things written and not written. However, Jesus prayed all night  before choosing Judas and the others.  He was a good person at that point.

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret from Jesus, letting him find out on his own?   You are saying Jesus had no ability given him by God, to read the heart of man. Scriptures say otherwise.  John 2:23-25; 6:64  Judas was chosen as a betrayer.  It sounds like your saying that Jesus was in the dark about who of the 12, would betray him until he proved himself to be a thief.  Both God and Christ knew his heart.  John 2:23-25.  Jesus knew “from the beginning”.  “He knew all men”.   

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Do you believe he didn't know how he would die, or that Pilate would be instrumental in sending him to his death at the demand of the Pharisees?  He knew exactly how it would happen and by whom. 

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”   John 8:54-58

Judas’ role as the betrayer was fulfilled. Ps 41:9; Mark 14:19-21   Jesus’ choice for the twelfth apostle was Paul; another stumbling block most likely, for JWs. He personally chose all 12 apostles, as well as who would betray him.  Matthias was chosen by men, who cast lots. Acts 1:26

Here are examples of Jesus’ knowing what was in the heart of each person even before speaking with them.

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, ⁷ “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

⁸ Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Mark 2:6-8

When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”⁴⁸ “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” ⁴⁹ Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 18:47-49

How did Jesus see him?  Spiritually, physically?  How did he determine that Nathaneal had “no deceit” unless he read his heart?  John 18:47-49

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  John 6:64

Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” ¹¹ For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”  John 13:10,11

 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. ²⁴ But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, ²⁵ and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.  John 2:23-25

Ps 119:30 – “The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.”

Dear JWs,

Can an idol hear the words of God?  Idolatry is sourced in the spirit of the world, where Satan wields his authority. 1 John 5:19  An idol cannot speak the words of God, aiding others to reach the light of understanding and truth.   John 17:17 

An idol has no compassion toward those in need, extending its hand to comfort the afflicted and those suffering in sorrow; fully able to sense their needs.   It cannot comprehend the examples of love and compassion we have in Christ.  Matt 11:28-30   

If an idol is unable to hear and speak the Word of God in Christ, then surely we know it can never walk in the path of Christ, or shine the light of truth when under the power of the wicked one.    1 Sam 12:21; Ps 119:1-5

Can an earthly fabrication, run by men, EVER bring salvation to ANYONE who joins it?  And what if it does purport to be the way to salvation; can those who represent it, hear, speak, and walk in the Word of God and the path of Christ?  No.  It would be an act of rebellion to assign salvation to anything other than the name that scripture declares as our salvation. Its leaders would be false teachers, appearing as “ministers of light”, “holding to a form of godliness, although having denied its power”.   Ps 18:2; Acts 4:12; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 2 Tim 3:5   

 Yes, idolatry IS an act of rebellion against God.  Ezek 20:8;Ps 78:58  

How do you feel about the following proclamation by your leaders, JWs?

Watchtower 1981/11/15:  “come to Jehovah’s ORGANIZATION for SALVATION”   pg 16-21 par 18

“There are those who rebel against the light, who do not know its ways or stay in its paths.” Job 24:13

If we take another fork in the Watchtower’s twisted road to “salvation”, what do your leaders say?

Watchtower 90/11/1 p. 26 – “We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry – be it worshipful gestures toward an IMAGE OR SYMBOL or the imputing of SALVATION to a PERSON or an ORGANIZATION. 

Please, think about this the next time you view an exJW as an “apostate”.  Do you know that the most threatening “apostates” to the organization are those who have turned fully to God and Christ?  Why?  They do not hide their “lamp” under a basket, but speak the Word of God boldly for all of you to hear.  The Word of God is truth, which exposes the Watchtower’s idolatrous identity.  Luke 11:33; Rev 11:1-3; 13:1,5,11,14-17  

There is no need to return to “Jehovah’s organization”, since it is, according to the above Watchtower quote, an IDOL.  Those who desire to walk in the light of Christ, seek out the pure words of God, untainted by men, their decrees and twisted reasoning.  They have come to know that the Father does not stand on equal ground with an organization, but He alone is our Rock and our fortress.  Isa 46:5; 42:8; 2:7-10  

They have found the true God. They have returned to pure worship. Isa 57:13; Ps 24:3,4

Watchtower 1953/3/1 p. 143:  “Ask yourself now, Did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church ORGANIZATION in his day?  No.  GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO DO THAT; but he requires us to worship him…  We have the Bible to show us the right way.  CERTAINLY IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A PERSON TO BECOME A MEMBER OF A CHURCH TO GAIN EVERLASTING LIFE.”

Who then, is the apostate?  One who stays clear of worldly organizations and worships in “spirit and truth”, or is it you, and your leaders who have rebelled against God by glorifying “Jehovah’s organization”?    Please, reject the Watchtower Idol, JWs.  As with all idols, this one is destined to topple soon.  John 4:23,24  

Psalm 115:

Not to us, YHVH, not to us,
but to Your name give glory
because of Your faithful love, because of Your truth.
² Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?” 
³ Our God is in heaven
and does whatever He pleases.

⁴ Their idols are silver and gold,
made by human hands.
⁵ They have mouths but cannot speak,
eyes, but cannot see.
⁶ They have ears but cannot hear,
noses, but cannot smell.
⁷ They have hands but cannot feel,
feet, but cannot walk.
They cannot make a sound with their throats.

⁸ Those who make them are just like them,
as are all who trust in them.

⁹ House of Israel, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

¹⁰ House of Aaron, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

¹¹ You who fear the Lord, trust in YHVH!
He is their help and shield.

¹² The Lord remembers us and will bless us.
He will bless the house of Israel;
he will bless the house of Aaron;
¹³ he will bless those who fear the Lord—
small and great alike.

¹⁴ May the Lord add to your numbers,
both yours and your children’s.
¹⁵ May you be blessed by the Lord,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
¹⁶ The heavens are the Lord’s heavens
but the earth he has given to the children of men.

¹⁷ It is not the dead who praise the Lord,
nor any of those descending into the silence of death.
¹⁸ But we will bless the Lord,
both now and forever.
Praise the Lord!

Pearl Doxsey 

    "Can the Watchtower Crumble?"

    "Who is the False Prophet that Gives Breath to the Image of the Beast?"

2 hours ago, Anna said:

So my point was that we should not be surprised if someone we previously considered good turns bad.

I do agree.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I do not believe however that Judas was "destined" to be bad, as that would have deprived him of the freedom of choice that has been given to all intelligent creatures in heaven and on earth. 

We all have free will, anyone can and accept the cleansing Word of Christ…unless we have already chosen and ultimately “sealed” our heart to follow another path.   Jesus knew Judas’ hardened, unbending heart condition,  before he was chosen among the twelve.  Scriptures reveal this fact.  John  13:18 (Ps 41:9); John 8:31

None of the teachings by Christ absolved him of his sins.  John 12:4-6; 13:10,11

His prophetic role is verified in the Hebrew scriptures.  Acts 1:16-20; (Ps 69:25; 109:8)

Free will is expressed by our heart’s desire.  This man’s heart made the free choice to pursue evil before joining with Christ.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.  John 17:12

 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
10 I, the Lord, search the heart,
I search (examine, investigate) the mind, (the most secret parts)
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings."  Jer 17:9,10

God knows the end of all things from the beginning, including the sway of our heart.  Isa 46:10

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you.

I have no problem at all with it.  I do not lay down new decrees for men to obey as the GB is known for, and admits to doing.  (Check with Anthony Morris about this)  This is "distorting the truth" - Christ's truth.

Felix the Cat carried around a Magic Bag of Tricks.  I'll just say this; no further comment, Allen Smith. 

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking.

You appear to be placing the GB on the same level as Jesus Christ, which I agree that they have accomplished this.  Jesus altered the Jewish teaching because its leaders spoke as their "father", Satan.  

  Is anyone allowed to alter Jesus' teachings?  

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.

Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?

The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.

The “Pharisaical” leaders of the WT cannot interpret the decrees of God since they have come as false “christs”, lording it over anointed and all in the organization. Matt 24:24  They expect obedience to them and their decrees, and not to Jesus Christ and his Word, which comes from God.

" Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The WORDS I speak to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN. The Father who lives in Me does His works." John 14:10

“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands AND TEACHES PEOPLE TO DO SO, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES THAT OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."   Deut 4:2

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian.

That's right.

36 minutes ago, Anna said:

What would you say to Jesus when he handpicked Judas Iscariot as one of his 12 Apostles?

Are you saying you don’t know why Judas was handpicked?

 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life. ⁶⁹ We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

⁷⁰ Jesus replied to them, “Didn’t I choose you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” ⁷¹ He was referring to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son^] one of the Twelve, because he was going to betray him.  John 6:68-71

While they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”

²² Deeply distressed, each one began to say to him, “Surely not I, Lord?”

²³ He replied, “The one who dipped his hand with me in the bowl—he will betray me. ²⁴ The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him if he had not been born.”  Matt 26:21-24

His role was instrumental in fulfilling prophesy, and God who reads the heart thoroughly, could see clearly that Judas had already chosen his path, which was destruction. Are you equating this to the GB, or Raymond Franz as being “handpicked by Jesus” to do good, or evil?

We have full evidence that the disciples were inspired by Spirit. John 20:22;  Rom 8:5,9; 1 Cor 2:10  We don't have that evidence with the GB who must alter teachings continually.   We don't hear how the Spirit directs them, but that they are not "inspired"; so, instead, we hear how the GB put their heads together to come up with new decrees.  There is no comparison to the apostles.  Why make it?  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

This  thing that has set itself up in God's temple has been around since the second century - Read matt 13 to see who sowed the weeds and when they would be pulled out....in time of end- when their fruits are fully visible.    Read up about the Greek influence in the 2nd century congregation and how this philosophy influenced the congregation.  While the apostles were alive they kept it in control but after john died is quickly spread until Constantine the great made it an  empire who controlled kings.  The one sitting in the temple of God with great power has been around for centuries not a hundred years.

Babylon the Great is teaching the exact same teachings which took hold after the flood.  They are not proclaiming the Kingdom as the solution for mankinds problems - and I guess neither are you because you do not belong to that nation which learns war no more in the last days....  Babylon the great teachings is the trinity and immortality of the soul etc etc.   Tell me - where did you learn these teachings were false?  From the very hand you are biting now?

You are deluding yourself....  and I am being  kind to show you this.   I am not superior but I understand the scriptures and Jehovah's purpose. My confidence comes from Jehovah's Spirit. 

Your comments show your acidity with the GB because you have not got a special spot to shed your special light on everyone.   But is it really a light/lamp from Jehovah ...or your own ideas..... You seem to have the same OCD I see with some of the others here..... always back to the same old song..... to get recognition as a true anointed but without the  "land" or the holy nation..... ......Not sowing seeds of the kingdom but of division.  By your fruits I know you.... 

Yes, there have been other entities that define a “man of lawlessness”.  Daniel was told that the interpretation of Revelation was to be "sealed up" until the time of the end. Dan 8:26 The Man of Lawlessness of Rev 13 would not refer to those past identities but to that identity that overpowers God's people in the last days as the "fourth beast" they must face.  Dan 7:7

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. ² But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. ³ And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

You are interpreting the Man of Lawlessness differently than your own teachers, yet you are also condemning me for my use of scriptures that prove what Temple, God has in mind. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22   I care not what the religions of the world interpret the Man of Lawlessness as; it has to do with God’s anointed “Jews”/spiritual “Israel” – New Jerusalem/Holy City. 

Satan comes against them, “the woman”, those under covenant. Gal 4:26  Do you believe all anointed are already “wise virgins” by allowing others to rule over them?  This is what the Beast of Rev 13:1 succeeds in doing; either they are "measured" as acceptable in the Kingdom, or they are found "worshiping"/revering a "powerful delusion" - the Beast.  Rev 13:4   Satan uses a “Gentile” army to reign/rule/tread God's Temple/Holy City.  Rev 12:7; 9:3-6

It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.   Rev 13:7

How do you overcome someone?  By threatening expulsion from the life they know – disfellowshipping them for refusing to OBEY.  Marking them as spiritually “dead”. Rev 13:15 The “war” is fought when an anointed one refuses to bare their back as someone’s slave. Isa 51:23 They are to be under one Master, Jesus Christ.  John 15:20

Who helps this army/ “Man of Lawless” "trample" the anointed ones?   A false prophet also directed by Satan. Rev 13:11,12; Matt 24:48

I speak for a nation, not for myself. I speak for the name of YHVH, not for the name of an organization.   The nation of God has become slaves under the rule of others.    Only a remnant will wake up to this fact.  They have fallen into idolatry to a blasphemous “spirit-directed image”. 

And he (false prophet Rev 13:11) deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. ¹⁵ He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.  Rev 13:15-17

Has the United Nations been given “divine” authority by a false prophet?  Does the world believe it is blessed by God – those nations who are its members?  Do they obey a false prophet who “guides” the United Nations? Rev 13:11,12  No, but the Watchtower organization and its members believe the organization belongs to “Jehovah”, as a “spirit-directed (“give breath”) organization”. 
 

A JW doesn’t have to look far to see how the anointed have been conquered and “trampled” by the Man of Lawlessness- a modern-day Korah.  They are also, under the same blasphemous rule.

19 minutes ago, Arauna said:

  The root cause of mankind's problems was the choosing of independence from Jehovah. 

You are equating independence from a Wicked Slave as Independence from God?

19 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The inability to cooperate and be part of his people we see many examples of - like Corah.  He was so sure he had God's blessing!  poor man.  Luckily Jehovah did not put him in Gehenna - only Sheol.

You may want to read Watchtower's own blasphemous words about skirting around the judgment THEY will receive - the same judgment that came upon Korah.  WT is condoning the exact desire that Korah had - to possess the priesthood by replacing it with men not anointed.  This is the "disgusting thing" that has "set itself up in God's Temple".  Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4   It gives you the article that you can refer to.    I have hold over no one.  The GB has hold over 8 million people, one of them is you.  

A comment was made by Pearl Doxsey on the opening topic when I posted it on facebook:

Although these verses do not specifically mention making investments in the very things you condemn among your followers; they do make clear that a servant of Christ does not mix their calling, with money or other gain. They do not exchange spiritual provisions, for money. Preaching doe

2Tim.2:3-4 reads; "3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer."
Jesus said; "16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” (John2)

Paul said; "17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God." (2Cor2)

s not require, material riches. The only purpose mentioned, for the money sack that the disciples of Jesus had, was to give to the poor.

The zeal of Jesus for his Father's house, made him express with outrage, his offense that commercialism should have anything to do with worship. Paul made clear that when Jesus said; "You received free; give free" (Matt10:8), that those whom you feed spiritually, should not be obliged to give money (or anything else) to you. That is what we see in Rev.13:17... that the Wild Beasts set up a monopoly of spiritual provisions. The WT is guilty of violating all these verses.

 Obedience, service, and worship, are also "goods" that should belong to God, but at times, men also covet them in exchange for spiritual food. 

The WT stated; ""we may be asked to do something by Jehovahs' organization, and we must be ready to obey even if it does not seem reasonable from a human standpoint or not".

Why would such blind obedience be necessary, if the scriptures really directed a course of action, among those supposedly dedicated to God? If the scriptures are Not behind a directive... then no man has a right to expect, conformance! Rom.6:16 makes clear, that whoever we obey, we are their slave. 1Cor7:23; Luke4:8 and Gal1:10 make clear, that we must only obey and serve God and Christ. Whatever we do, must be directed, by them. In loyalty to God and in exclusive devotion; genuine Christians, are guided only by scripture... not by an unreasonable demand by human beings.

Corrections/additions of scripture:

On 1/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Witness said:

 This is the sign of the presence of the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4

The anointed are to be organized according to God’s way; yet, at this time period of the end, an “organization” has shattered the Temple, “trampled” God’s anointed House by men who “bind others’ consciences”.  This is the sign of the presence of the Man of Lawlessness.   Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2 

On 1/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Witness said:

Restored spiritual “Israel” is “built” with God’s Spirit.  They will be the “capstone”, completing God’s Temple.  Zech 4:8-14; Rev 11:1-3; Matt 18:20  

Restored spiritual “Israel” is “built” with God’s Spirit. They will be the “capstone”, completing God’s Temple. 1 Pet 2:5,9; Zech 4:8-14; Rev 11:1-3; Matt 18:20

On 1/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Witness said:

The “two witnesses of Christ”/”wise virgins” side with him in this battle of truth against lies.  They do not need an organization as we know it, to do so.  Rev 12:7; 1 Cor 2:10   

The “two witnesses” of Christ, (”wise virgins”) side with him in this battle of truth against lies. They do not need an organization as we know it, to do so. Matt 25:1,6-13; Rev 12:7; 1 Cor 2:6,10 

On 1/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Witness said:

 A GB?  It was Holy Spirit.  We have never read in the scriptures that the apostles and believers upheld and extolled an “organization” in Jerusalem. 

A GB? It was Holy Spirit. Acts 8:26,27 We have never read in the scriptures that the apostles and believers upheld and extolled an “organization” in Jerusalem. 

On 1/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Witness said:

Through Holy Spirit, the “two witnesses”/anointed ones “prophesy” and reveal the Man of Lawlessness.   (Rev 4:11,14; Rev 11:1-3)  Their “words”, coming from Christ, judge and condemn.

Through Holy Spirit, the “two witnesses”/anointed ones “prophesy” and reveal the Man of Lawlessness. (Dan 8:11; Rev 11:1-3) Their “words”, coming from Christ, judge and condemn. 

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Soon to come my dear! 

Seems you know how to grab all kinds of quotes but you have not read any to make sense of it.... Do that.... you may learn something! 

I do not waste my time with people who just want to argue for the sake of arguing. 

So what do you think of Agenda 21 and UN Compact 2018?  After all - this is the subject - what is your superior understanding about it?

I’ve read the Watchtower quotes from the articles I linked, and their identities of Revelation’s Beasts.  Have you?  I hope you don’t blindly reject them without researching.   It appears that Watchtower’s confusion in teachings makes more sense than God’s Word which identifies the authentic “kings of the earth” and God’s Temple.   I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, but bringing scripture to the fore. You brought up the Eighth King, I commented on its identity.    

I have no “superior” understanding of Agenda 21 and UN Compact 2018.  Whatever Satan contrives in his realm is a counterfeit fulfillment that God’s anointed people are already suffering under!  The elder body/Man of Lawlessness/Beast from the “Sea”. 

Satan uses all sorts of deceit to hide his true work at hand.  This includes his actions inside and outside of the organization to cover over what he’s already doing to God’s anointed ones.  2 Cor 11:13-15

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders”  2 Thess 2:9

The Kingdom isn’t born from activities in Satan’s world, but from the mindset of His people and our full devotion to Him, not not to men who cannot get their story straight. 

 False prophets were among God’s people in the past, as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction. ² Many people will follow them in their sexual freedom (spiritually immoral) and will cause others to dishonor the way of truth. ³ In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you. The verdict against them from long ago is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep.  2 Pet 2:1-3

2 Thess 2:9-12 -   He (Satan) will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. ¹¹ That’s why God will send them (allow Satan to do so)  a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. ¹² Then everyone who did not believe the truth, but was delighted with what God disapproves of, will be condemned.”

These scriptures explain how the transgression comes upon the Temple of God. 2 Thess 2:1-4  Lying wonders have convinced JWs that although a ruling entity looms over them; it appears benign and in harmony with God’s will.  MEN appointed elders to rule God’s anointed priesthood/Temple, but to God it must not happen. Numbers 3:10; Dan 8:11; Ezek 44:6-9

Which WT lie do you choose to believe, concerning the identities of the Beasts of Revelation?  Which holds more power over you, God's Word or the confusing words of men?  Isa 2:22

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

We will have to agree to differ.

We can do that.   

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If you believe in a Judgement day / Armageddon time, then all people on the Earth have to be given a warning. 

We’ve had the full Bible for over 2,000 years.  The words of Christ are not new and have spread worldwide; and we don’t know what the anointed over that time period, accomplished.  We have the guarantee that the Father searches and “weighs” each heart; and would not abandon anyone who desires to serve only Him and His Son – “fully committed” to following His decrees in Christ.    Prov 21:2; 2 Chron 16:9

Although, judgment begins with God’s House – His people under covenant.  When we see the sins of His people come to light, then we know the end is near.  1 Pet 4:17

I encourage you to keep seeking out the anointed and the "fruit" they offer (John 13:20; Matt 7:18-20),  remembering that the coming Kingdom of God “does not come with observation”  Luke 17:20,21, but as a “thief in the night”, when God’s people (since judgment begins with His house , Eph 2:20-22) will be saying, “peace and security”.  1 Thess 5:1-3

Spiritual “peace and security” is offered by “Jehovah’s organization”, where the sins of God’s people are now being brought to light.  Rev 18:4-8

love in Christ,

peely

13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In the time of Jesus himself, here on this Earth, Jesus started an 'organisation', a group of twelve Apostles to lead the people. 

OK, John.  This is long, but I hope you give it a try.  

It was hard for me once leaving the Watchtower; thinking I had to “go” somewhere, because the Watchtower has ingrained this concept into their members.

Here’s are  examples:

w06 2/15 pp. 26-30   If I find myself in a situation where changes seem hard to accept, I reflect on Peter’s words to Jesus: ‘Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.’ Then I ask myself, ‘Where shall I go away to—out there into the darkness of the world?’ This helps me to hold firmly to God’s organization.”—John 6:68.

w88 3/15 pp. 15-20    Furthermore, suppose a person was to separate himself from Jehovah’s people. Where could he go? Is he not faced with the same issue that confronted Jesus’ apostles when he asked them if they also wanted to leave him? The apostle Peter rightly replied: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68) There is nowhere else to go but to “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion, or into the clutches of Satan’s political “wild beast.” (Revelation 13:1; 18:1-5) Largely, disloyal ones who have left Jehovah’s visible organization have made common cause with those in God-dishonoring “Babylon the Great.”

 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life. ⁶⁹ We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”  John 6:68,69

Can you see how Christ’s words have been twisted by the WT, making people believe that an organization is the way of salvation, simply because they “preach” Christ?  We both know that the organization cannot provide salvation.

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12

The Watchtower, on rare occasions, has supported this scripture by saying:

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities

"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." 

And then, hypocritically turn around to say:

Kingdom Ministry 11/1990 p. 1  Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established."  

It seems pretty clear to me that I cannot give my allegiance to men’s “organized” way of doing things.  I must rely completely on my faith in Christ and the Father. 

The man who finally succumbed to the ideals of “organization” first stated:

Beware of "organization." It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day."   CT Russell Watchtower1895/9/15

In the Watchtower men have become “kings”, ruling over others. (1 Sam 8:6) However, we have our King, Jesus Christ.  As I have said, “leaders” within Christ’s anointed Body, guide people to the King of Kings, Lord of Lords with words spoken in truth, but they do not reign them in through the stipulations driving an organization.   Once earthly organization is introduced, a hierarchy of power is born, which is derived from the realm of Satan. (1 Sam 8:10-18)

God said,

Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call to him while he is near.
⁷ Let the wicked one abandon his way
and the sinful one his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord,
so he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will freely forgive.

⁸ “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not my ways.”
This is the Lord’s declaration.
⁹ “For as heaven is higher than earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.  Isa 55:6-9

Did He say seek an organization?  Are man’s ideals the same as God’s ideals?

We are to take in “new wine” that Jesus has offered us; new understanding about the new Temple of God built on the anointed ones.  He also said that this new way of worship will be rejected.

 And no one, after drinking old wine, wants new, because he says, ‘The old is better.’”  Luke 5:39

 The anointed are to be organized according to God’s way; yet, at this time period of the end, an “organization” has shattered the Temple, “trampled” God’s anointed House by men who “bind others’ consciences”.  This is the sign of the presence of the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4

Okay, so why are the “Jews” that “ten” men seek out, so hard to find?  Because as I see you doing, you are looking for them to “organize” in the same pattern of the one you left. 

Restored spiritual “Israel” is “built” with God’s Spirit.  They will be the “capstone”, completing God’s Temple.  Zech 4:8-14; Rev 11:1-3; Matt 18:20  The anointed are gathering, but as small as they are (Amos 7:2); those believers that join them are becoming many. Ezek 36:6-11  They are spiritually “organized” according to the direction of Holy Spirit.  They are a spiritual "congregation", known completely by the Father and Jesus.    They make God’s “name” known; not as an organization that says it makes the name of God known, yet extols the work of man’s hands which the Watchtower has done, and then compare it to God.  Ps 50:16-23; (Isa 46)  Michael, who stands up for his people, proclaims the meaning of his name; “Who is like God?” (Joel 2:32)  The Watchtower and the majority of its members claim, “who or what is like Jehovah’s organization”? 

All the people of the world were amazed and followed the beast. ⁴ They worshiped the serpent because it had given authority to the beast. They also worshiped the beast and said, “Who is like the beast? Who can fight a war with it?” Rev 13:3b,4

The “two witnesses of Christ”/”wise virgins” side with him in this battle of truth against lies.  They do not need an organization as we know it, to do so.  Rev 12:7; 1 Cor 2:10   

In the first century every apostle was directed by Holy Spirit, not by a “governing body” in Jerusalem.  They may have taken care of a problem together on circumcision, but this doesn’t mean they were organized according to men.  Paul traveled everywhere that the spirit directed him.  Who sent Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch?  A GB?  It was Holy Spirit.  We have never read in the scriptures that the apostles and believers upheld and extolled an “organization” in Jerusalem.  Yet, Paul distinctly taught the anointed ones how they were part of God’s Temple/House. Eph 2:20-22; 1 Cor 12. He concentrated on bringing this Body together, for them to learn who they were, and how they would serve God in the Kingdom.    If you will consider it, there is a good article on this:  http://holyspiritorgoverningbody-obadiah.blogspot.com/

During the time that the last Man of Lawless is revealed, what happens?

Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I used to tell you about this? ⁶ And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, ⁸ and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will bring him to nothing at the appearance of his coming. 2 Thess 2:5-8

Through Holy Spirit, the “two witnesses”/anointed ones “prophesy” and reveal the Man of Lawlessness.   (Rev 4:11,14; Rev 11:1-3)  Their “words”, coming from Christ, judge and condemn.

The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,¹⁰ and with every wicked deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth and so be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe the lie, ¹² so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but delighted in unrighteousness.  2 Thess 2:9-12

Do you really believe there is time to “organize” according to men’s direction, another earthly house of worship? John 4:23,24  It wouldn’t be successful.   This is why Jesus said,  “Believe me. A time is coming when you Samaritans won’t be worshiping the Father on this mountain or in the (literal city of) Jerusalem. “  John 4:21

(I find it interesting that the name “Samaria” means “watch tower”!)

I feel you may be “kicking against the goads”.  Rely totally on the Father and Christ to lead you to truth.  Check out the links I have given you.  Understand that we are living close to the end.  Armageddon is fought, not in Satan’s earthly realm, but on the “low plain” or valley of decision”, revealing the intentions of the heart’s desires.  Joel 3:14-16; Matt 13:24-30 We either struggle to find and follow Christ and his truths, or rely on men’s twisted interpretation of scripture through organizational means.    Both come to us in totally different ways. 

The plans of the heart belong to humans,
    but an answer on the tongue comes from the Lord.
² A person thinks all his ways are pure,
    but the Lord weighs motives.
³ Entrust your efforts to the Lord,
    and your plans will succeed..  Prov 16:1-3

The end time preaching work is extraordinary; not at all as the Watchtower teaches.  Jesus said this preaching work would be to “Israel” – the anointed ones/Temple. Matt 10:23; Rev 11:1-3  They are the “kings of the earth”, God’s people now gathered in the Watchtower organization.  Rev 1:5; 19:19;21:24 (Rev 5:9,10)  They, along with all inside, are told to “come out of her” and leave her sins behind.  Rev 18:4-8

Dear JWs,

Can an earthly organization, with its extended assets in buildings, monetary investments and its pitfalls;  its legal branch, “governmental” branch, production branch, and all branches throughout the world, be the source of salvation for mankind?  Acts 4:12; 17:24,25   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4%3A12%3B+17%3A24%2C25&version=NIV

Would our true source of spiritual salvation have any partnership in worldly interests?  Matt 4:8-10; 6:19-21; Col 3:2,5   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+4%3A8-10%3B+6%3A19-21%3B+Col+3%3A2%2C5&version=NIV

Can Jesus’ pure teachings remain untainted under the influence of an institutional structure formulated by men? 1 Tim 4:16; 2 Tim 4:3; 2 Pet 2:1-3   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Tim+4%3A16%3B+2+Tim+4%3A3%3B+2+Pet+2%3A1-3&version=NIV

Where does wickedness thrive?  1 John 5:19; Matt 24:10-12; 2 Thess 2:9-12  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5%3A19%3B+Matt+24%3A10-12%3B+2+Thess+2%3A9-12&version=NIV

JWs, why do you believe God would bless an entity identical to other organizations in the world?  Rom 12:2; 1 Cor 1:20   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+12%3A2%3B+1+Cor+1%3A20&version=NIV

ORGANIZATION:  “an administrative and functional structure (such as a business or a political party)

the personnel of such a structure

characterized by COMPLETE CONFORMITY TO THE STANDARDS AND REQUIREMENTS OF AN ORGANIZATION”

 Aren’t Christ’s standards and teachings enough, without polluting them with men’s desire to “organize”, twist and corrupt, what God has made pure?  James 3:15,16; Phil 3:19  No organization in this world can be considered pure and unblemished, since Satan dabbles in all aspects of this world.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+3%3A15%2C16%3B+Phil+3%3A19++&version=NIV

The light of Christ and his teachings cannot, and do not abide with the darkness of the world.  John 8:12; James 1:27   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A12%3B+James+1%3A27&version=NIV

By allowing an organization to motivate you and rule over you with its “organizational” standards, you allow Satan to corrupt the pure Word of God with the teachings of men, who are thieves and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Matt 7:15; John 10:9,10   You no longer believe solely in the Word of God, but a crooked version that robs you of truth, and of the glory of Christ.   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+7%3A15%3B+John+10%3A9%2C10+++&version=NIV

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” 2 Cor 4:4

Please, do not think that the “preaching work” is a sign of success; that somehow God has transgressed His own decrees of purity and blessed the Watchtower, who’s doctrines change continually to cover over previous lies.   An earthly organization formulated by men can never match the requirements of purity set by God.  It can never be considered “Zion” as you are taught. To apply salvation to something created by man, is idolatry. Rom 1:25  But, there are people that God has chosen, who by submitting their hearts to be refined by Christ and his teachings, can reach that purity. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Mal 3:2,3; Rev 3:18 They are part of the true heavenly Zion, and God is preparing them to teach and serve all His children, in the Kingdom to come.  Rom 8:19-21    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A25%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%2C10%3B+Mal+3%3A2%2C3%3B+Rev+3%3A18+&version=NIV

Phil 2:14-16; 1:9-11; 2 Cor 11:2; Heb 12:22; Rev 14:1; 21:2; 14:5    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil+2%3A14-16%3B+1%3A9-11%3B+2+Cor+11%3A2%3B+Heb+12%3A22%3B+Rev+14%3A1%3B+21%3A2%3B+14%3A5&version=NIV

Jesus tells us how God expects us to worship Him.

John 4:1-54

You can listen here:  https://www.biblegateway.com/audio/suchet/nivuk/John.4

Pearl Dosxey "The Sign of the End"  4 womaninthewilderness . blogspot

On 12/30/2018 at 10:59 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

The Governing Body oversees the activity of the Writing Department at our world headquarters. This department coordinates the assignments of the writers who serve at headquarters and at certain branch offices. Having a diversified writing staff allows us to address multicultural subjects that give our publications an international appeal. (source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012164 ) 

A writing department.  Why is it needed?  Because a “Wicked Steward” has ignored what a steward of God’s anointed house must do – manage and gather spiritual provisions from all anointed of the body to “feed” the sheep – themselves and their fellow believers.  Luke 12:42-47

This is more evidence that Matt 24:48-51 is fulfilled within the WT. 

“and he then begins to beat his fellow servants,” 

 Kosonen brought out WT quotes proving this. 

 “and to eat and drink with drunkards.”  Matt 24:49   The “drunkards” are the writing department and the elders who administer spiritual “food” that they have sampled before distributing.  They do the Wicked Slave’s bidding, totally drunk on the Harlot/false prophet’s “wine”. 

On the one hand the GB confer together, apparently to derive spiritual food that Christ provides them.  

On the other hand, they would be at a loss without a writing department to give them suggestions. 

Such a conundrum.

On 1/7/2019 at 6:07 AM, Arauna said:

You guys ain't seen nothing yet!  Soon you will see what is real control.... there is benevolent control and satanic control... .... 

Any case I found a new tit-bit.  On the JW app is says that the beast with the seven heads has a different kind of rulership than the Eighth king.

Small difference but significant.  One should therefore not expect this organization which now is gaining power over many kings to rule in the same way as the other 7 kings have in the past. 

The subversion which has been going on behind the scenes and the kind of agreements which has been made is giving it power to go ahead with its plans despite opposition from some iron-like elements in society. 

The insidiousness of the ideology is infiltrating everywhere and the unthinking populations are giving it full support because it is deceivingly presented as a good rule with all the right buzz words.  The gender inclusions, the environmental sustainability - all wonderful things. ..... until you realize the other aspects of the plan.

The Beast is the Man of Lawlessness that "sets himself up in God's Temple".    Rev 13:18; 2 Thess 2:3,4

God's Temple are the anointed ones.  1 Cor 3:16,17  I don't see any religious or political entity in the world targeting the anointed ones, do you?

The Watchtower gives various identities to this Beast –

    Christendom’s clergy.  w90 2/1 pp. 10-14

    The Anglo-American World Power  ws12 6/15 p. 15-16

    The United Nations.  Wt 13/7/15 pp 3-8 par 6  

Revelation’s Wild Beast (Rev 13:1) works under the direction of a false prophet . (Rev 13:11,12) It has “ two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.”      It has a variety of WT identities also.

   “two governments that are partners”   ws12 6/15 p. 15-16

   Anglo-Amerian world power, I suppose another term for the above. w62 12/1 pp. 731-734

   A religious entity that promoted the League of Nations re chap. 33 pp. 235-245

There may be more identities for both.  This false prophet is Revelation’s Harlot daughter of Babylon the Great, which is the “mother of harlots” and the covenant of death.  Isa 28:14,15; Rev 17:5

Christendom has taken on the role of both Beasts throughout Watchtower’s historical writings of “truth”.  Take your pick, choose your poison. Rev 8:11   The organization has you completely buffaloed believing whatever they like, and when they like, according to the events in Satan’s realm.    I do hope you can see this, Arauna. 

One Beast is from the Sea, with ten horns (representing kings) and seven heads. Rev 13:1  The second Beast with two horns is from the Earth. Rev 13:11 These are symbolic descriptions, as Revelation is a book of “signs”.  Rev 1:1

“Sea” describes the “wicked”, people from all nations that comprise the Beast, and under the influential power of the dragon. Ps 65:7; Isa 57:20 

The Dragon has the same number of horns and heads.  Rev 12:3

“Earth” is known as God’s owned “land”; a people under ‘cultivation’- His “inhabited earth”.  Matt 24:14;  Rev 10:2; 1 Cor 3:9; Luke 8:15; John 15:1; Acts 7:49 (Rev 14:3,4)     They are a people who are under covenant with Him.  The Beast with two horns that arises from the earth has left this covenant and has committed spiritual “sexual immorality”.  It is a composite entity - "they” are false prophets, harlots – spiritual adulterers.  Rev 2:21   The only people under covenant with God are the anointed ones, His owned “land” – possession.  1 Pet 2:5,9

This Beast from the Earth is one of the heads or ruling entities of the Beast from the sea.  But not for long.  As the Eighth King arises, the false prophet/Beast will be gone.  Now, in Satan’s realm this equates to either the Catholic Church, religions in general, or Christendom as being destroyed – however Watchtower puts it.    Do you see this happening in the world?

The truth is, the GB/Harlot will be disfellowshipped by the organization/ Beast.  “Her” sins have reached to heaven.

I will pull up your skirts over your face
    that your shame may be seen—

What will you say when the Lord sets over you
    those you cultivated as your special allies? (the elder body/Beast organization)
Will not pain grip you
    like that of a woman in labor?

And if you ask yourself,
    “Why has this happened to me?”—
it is because of your many sins
    that your skirts have been torn off
    and your body mistreated.  Jer 16:26,21,22

Disaster will come upon you,
    and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
    that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
    will suddenly come upon you.  Isa 47:11

  God is calling His people OUT of this realm of sin – not out of the world’s religions,  but away from the sins of His own people.   THEY are being judged as either righteous or unrighteous. 

For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.  Luke 8:17

Revelation is written for God’s servants to take note.  The “kings of the earth” are Christ’s kings, who are in great danger of losing their inheritance. (wise virgins/foolish virgins) Would Jesus be concerned about the “kings” of the world of politics when he specifically stated that his kingdom is no part of the world?    Are those rulers his kings?  Do most of them even know Christ?   Or, would he be directing this message to the members of his Body/Temple?  1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,⁵ and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, ⁶ and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.  Rev 1:4-6

And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”  Rev 5:9,10

1 Pet 2:5,9

The Beasts have misled these kings; many will prefer to remain under the delusion called “truth”.  Others listen to Christ and “come out”.  2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 18:4-8  They have recognized the Harlot’s sins. 

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:13,14

The organization/Beast will disfellowship the GB. It seems impossible, unbelievable; since the GB shows such confidence in their assumed “heavenly” status.

 "Just as she glorified herself and lived in luxury, inflict on her just as much torture and misery. In her heart she says, 'I am a queen on a throne, not a widow. I will never see misery".  Rev 18:7

 Once these harlot daughters are gone, the Eighth King takes control as a composite of symbolic “ten kings”, but who give their authority over to the Beast/organization/elder body  (Rev 13:1)  These kings were Christ’s, who had not received a “kingdom”.  They had yet to be sealed in the heavens.  Rev 17:12,13  God puts this action into their hearts, to uncover the Harlot’s sins.  Rev 17:15-18

 The new composite rule will have ousted the Beast with two horns – the false prophet. 

Please think about this. You are looking at the events happening in the world to bring about the coming Kingdom of God, which is exactly what Satan wants you to believe.     In the meantime, WT’s sins are being exposed; how can any JW dismiss them?   The organization cannot get their story straight about Revelation’s identities.  They stumble on their own words, which is a typical trait of a liar who covers over what he may have previously declared as truth.   God has always dealt with the sins of Israel.  Do you really believe today’s “Israel” is blameless during the most turbulent time in man’s history?  Just one factor among many, proves they are immersed in sin – the pedophile issue cannot be ignored.  The other?  The Beast/organization “conquers the saints”.  Rev 13:6,7; Rev 11:1,2

How will that be accomplished by Christendom or the UN, when you are already anticipating an eighth king to arise in Satan’s realm?  The anointed have been “conquered” – muted, threatened not to “bond” with one another, and to obey the Beast under the direction of a “Beast with two horns that spoke like a lamb” – false “christs”. 

 “At that time don’t believe anyone who tells you, ‘Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’ ²⁴ False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work spectacular, miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, even those whom God has chosen.  (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 17:14)  Listen! I’ve told you this before it happens.”

3 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You and Butler keep referring to the wicked slave. At this point, it happens to be you all. Those that manipulate scripture to make their own wrongful perception of scripture is the wicked slave. Therefore, if you honestly think the Watchtower is the wicked slave, then so are you, Srecko, Butler, JWinsider, Anna, TrueTom, etc.

This is now sounding exactly like Allen Smith. 

It could be a literal two; then again, it may not be; because Revelation is a book of signs.  Symbols.    Rev 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (to give a sign)  it by his angel unto his servant John

"Two" represents truth.  Matt 18:16

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The GB are drawn by scripture. If you refute the GB for the following of scripture then that is far worse in your behalf.

The GB twist scripture to create doctrine.  For not accepting doctrine outside of God's Word , I was disfellowshipped, it wasn’t for rejecting the Word of God. 

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Jesus had someone above him, just like the apostles had Jesus above them. Where in scripture does it relate about leaders that you seem to have a problem with?

Does it stop with the apostles?  Should the rest of the Temple of God (anointed Body of Christ) begin obeying uninspired men and their false priesthood?  It is clear that this is evidence of a "wicked slave" that "beats" down his fellow slaves into submissiveness.  Matt 24:48-51  The entire congregation is under their thumb.  If the anointed priesthood are not used, then how can the organization call itself Zion?  As John Butler said, "The TRUE Anointed (Temple stones,1 Cor 3:16,17) would know how to use the scriptures properly. "   They would use the law written on their heart to judge and teach in righteousness.  

Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.  Isa 2:3

If faithful, they will reigning “kings”. Rev 5:9,10  Who is King of Kings?  Rev 19:16  You are expecting others to replace the Head of the Body – Christ.  There is no substitute leader over the anointed ones. 

Yet, an anointed "leader" of true teachings of Christ does not expect obedience to them, but to the Word. This is how the “saints will judge the world” – not by their opinion, but the Word, the decrees of God fulfilled in Christ, that issues from their hearts. Heb 4:12; 8:10-12  They are to teach the Word of God which leads/directs people to  the Word, - to Christ and the Father.   Mal 2:7; John 13:20 

This is how they are found to be "faithful and discreet" when Jesus returns.  Matt 25:23

This is only possible if the same “living water” from Christ fills their heart.  Any deviance from Christ’s teachings, such as doctrine of men, is blasphemy.  It is also blasphemy that Christ’s priests/kings are to obey those not anointed and those who speak falsehoods, which is failed doctrine and “empty words”.  Eph 5:6; Matt 7:15-20

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.  John 7:16

Matt 7:24-26; 10:12-15; 12:36,37; 19:11; John 7:38, etc.

If you support others to rule over the anointed, you support spiritual “Gentiles” ruling over spiritual “Jews”/”Israel” – God’s possession.   You support the Man of Lawlessness who has “set himself up” in the Temple of God.  2 Thess 2:3,4,7; Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:14-16

I do hope you can see this. 

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

John Butler, what do you think about the prophecy that "Elijah" would come before the day of Jehovah?

Malachi 4:5“Look! I am sending to you E·liʹjah the prophet+ before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.+⁶  And he will turn the hearts of fathers back toward sons,+ and the hearts of sons back toward fathers, so that I may not come and strike the earth, devoting it to destruction.”

I think everyone would do good in expecting the appearance of a single male servant of Jehovah who will embody the role of "Elijah".

 

“This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. God gave it to him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He sent this revelation through his angel to his servant John.”  Rev 1:1

Considering that Christ’s servants are his faithful “virgins”, to become his spotless “Bride”; and all are “brethren” in Christ under the same New Covenant --

And that there is  “neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”  Gal 3:28 ---

what is your point? 

 2 Cor 11:2 -  I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

Does Rev 11:1-3 specify that the “two” symbolic witness, bearing the similar message of Moses and Elijah and who speak truth (“two witnesses”), are all male?   

Luke 9:28-33

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Sorry to say, you’re once again mistaken. Reinstatement means you have shown God you have repented. This includes the body of Christ which is in each Christian fellow in unison. Meaning the church.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

²⁰ They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”  But the temple he had spoken of was his body.  After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.  John 2:19-22

This Body/Temple is God's dwelling - the house of God - and comprised the anointed priesthood.

"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."  1 Pet 2:5,9

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

"Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?  If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple."  1 Cor 3:16-17

The Body of Christ, where he is the chief cornerstone and the apostles and prophets as the foundation, is built with anointed "living stones".  

 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,  built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.  In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.  And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.  Eph 2:19-22

I hope this is clear.  The Body of Christ/church is comprised of anointed ones, a people under covenant with God - His holy priesthood.  If faithful, they become Christ's Bride.

Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.  1 Pet 2:10

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  Rev 21:2

Christ chooses his Bride, which becomes one with him.  It is not our choice to say we are part of his Body.

 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Eph 5:23,24  

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Absolution is a confirmation of God’s forgiveness. 

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I hope one day you will understand your errors and repent. Matthew 23:12

For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.  Matt 23:12

You are forgetting that the GB has exalted itself above all other anointed ones.  Yet, JWs completely accept this - that these uninspired individuals have authority over their "brothers" in Christ, giving elders  who are not anointed, the approval to judge them according to doctrine "unique" to the Watchtower.  Is this how Jesus taught his disciples?  Matt 7:1; Luke 22:24-27

You have judged me as needing repentance.  You also said it was God who absolves one of sin.   But, this isn’t the case in the WT as your words prove.   In the WT, absolution is apparent when one returns to the ORGANIZATION and receives all privileges AT THE APPROVAL OF THE ELDERS.  Since the GB is not inspired, and the elders certainly are not, who are they and you, to decide if an individual has been absolved from sin?  Can't you see that by the elder's approval of allowing one back in with full privileges, that this tells the congregants that person is no longer a sinner?  God has nothing to do with it, since the organization is not "inspired" by God.  

I never sinned for leaving an idol and turning fully to the Father and Christ.  I was sinning by supporting an idol/organization and the doctrines of men.  For that, I asked God to forgive me.   The organization cannot give any one man, salvation.  Acts 4:12

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? ¹⁵ And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? ¹⁶ And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”

The Lord says, “Get away from unbelievers.
    Separate yourselves from them.
        Have nothing to do with anything unclean.
            Then I will welcome you.”
¹⁸ The Lord Almighty says, “I will be your Father,
    and you will be my sons and daughters.”  2 Cor 6:14-18

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Perhaps this definition on the word absolution will help.

Absolution.  Isn’t this what reinstatement is?

Formal release from guilt, obligation, or punishment.

an ecclesiastical declaration of forgiveness of sins.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Perhaps, researching the Catholic faith as well as the Watchtower will make it clear on your errors.

I was raised a Catholic and later became a JW, holding on for over 30 years.  Both religions are the same two-headed coin – one side is the Pope; one, the GB. Both are hierarchical, and both incorporate a false priesthood that judges, condemns and expels. 

 The only difference is, that God’s authentic priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9)  is held “captive” within the WT and admonished to remain silent.  This isn’t what Paul said they should do. 

 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?  If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?  I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? ⁶ But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!  1 Cor 6:1-6

For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise!  For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face.  2 Cor 11:19-20

The “saints” carry the law of God within their heart.  A non-anointed elder body does not; so they guide, judge, and rule in wickedness.    Heb 8:10

“For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.  Mal 2:7

Because of this situation, what has happened?  Lawsuits, cover ups, disfellowshipping of the righteous, no care for victims or orphans.  It really isn’t any different in the Catholic Church.  Both, are Satan’s fabrications.  Can a leopard change its spots?

For anyone to suppress God’s priesthood, destroying His Temple and its arrangement,  destruction comes upon them.  I am sorry, but it is written in scripture.  1 Cor 3:16,17  It is lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4, 7,8; Ezek 44:6-9

I do hope the anointed and all, wake up to this seemingly “beautiful”, organization’s sins.  Jer 13:15-27

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If they didn't, then they would be just like any other teacher that thinks, they are equal to Christ as the POPE. 

Oops.  If they expect obedience from their anointed “brothers”, they certainly have “substituted” themselves for Christ, robbing the lowly insignificant anointed of their ability to listen only to Christ.    The GB have made it very clear by their  Bible translation, using the word "substitute" twice, for emphasis.  NWT 2 Cor 5:20  Since they claim to be the only "faithful and discreet slave", who other than themselves can "substitute" for Christ?  Matt 24:48-51

In reality, no one.  No one can substitute as the Head of the anointed Body of Christ.  

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Some believe they have the power to remove sin like Christ by Catholic priests.

 

Another oops.  Their false “priesthood”, the elder body, do just that.  Haven't you heard of a "judicial committee"?  They have the power to kick someone out as a sinner, and feel qualified to discern that God has forgiven a sinner, to allow them back in the congregation.

Where have you been?