Have JW's 'moved on since 1919'?

[Arauna]

Ok, you are obviously stuck on Russell.... in the 1800 's - which is crazy because JWs have moved on since 1919 - Russell had many things right - the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name just to name only 2.  He was not the only one who understood these things to be so.  It is true that he attended other groups which existed in this time when he started to study the bible - because there was a general awakening to study the Bible among the populace.... but he was the one that wanted to publish all he knew and used all his resources to do so. He was also the one who received all the hateful publicity from the religious leaders. 

So it seems you are determined to ignore the 2 different Greek words pertaining to "coming" (I mentioned it above) and keep referring to Russell"?  

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the 'presence' of the Son of man will be..... This is referring to Jesus's 'presence' - when he is busy ruling - before the final arrival of the destruction to come. Allan also explained this.

But please can you explain to me the following? Who the faithful and discreet slave is who  is "preaching the kingdom in the entire inhabited earth" to all the tribes and nations.... this is a sign of the end is it not in Matthew 24?  Verse 14 says so.  So this is a clear sign that we are in the time of the end -  then also read verse 43-45.  

Also go on to explain to me Luke 21: 24 , "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled."   What is this appointed time of the nations?   How do we know what it is  - and how long is it? Did God just put it there as decoration?... to sound important??? or does it have specific meaning for those who search through the scriptures in the time of the end. Daniel 12: 4 + 3 says: "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.Many will rove about,and the true knowledge will become abundant.” ³  “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. (they will be preaching). 

Who is Michael who "will stand up?": in this verse Daniel 1: “During that time Miʹchael will stand up, the great prince, who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. "

Is it part of the timeline of God? Matthew 24 also refers to Daniel  does it not?  So this shows that some prophesy in Daniel has reference to the end...

I suggest you read : What does the Bible really teach.... and analyze all the scriptures about the " trampling of the nations" and the one who "has the right to the throne".

I am done now.  There are many people out there who want to know what these scriptures mean....

 

[HollyW]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ok, you are obviously stuck on Russell.... in the 1800 's - which is crazy because JWs have moved on since 1919 -  

No, JWs haven't moved on since 1919.  They keep going back to 1919 and their supposed appointment as the faithful slave.  In the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!", right at the beginning there is a letter from the Governing Body inviting you to picture yourself back in 1914 in the dining hall at Bethel in NYC when Russell walks in and announces that the Gentile times have ended.  

Yes, Russell and his belief that Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times are the subjects of this thread.  I give you again my OP:

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Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?

It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history.

These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

On to your post:

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Arauna said:

Russell had many things right - the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name just to name only 2.  He was not the only one who understood these things to be so.  It is true that he attended other groups which existed in this time when he started to study the bible - because there was a general awakening to study the Bible among the populace.... but he was the one that wanted to publish all he knew and used all his resources to do so. He was also the one who received all the hateful publicity from the religious leaders. 

Russell had everything wrong about 1914 and he provided the very criteria that proved him wrong.  For reference, see his book "The Time Is At Hand", written in 1889, pgs. 76-79, where he lists seven proofs that were going to show whether or not 1914 was really the end of the times of Gentiles as he claimed it would be and as JWs today claim it was.

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Arauna said:

So it seems you are determined to ignore the 2 different Greek words pertaining to "coming" (I mentioned it above) and keep referring to Russell"?  

I haven't ignored them at all.  It's obvious you have one that applies to 1914 and the other to an unspecified date sometime in the future.  This thread is about 1914 and whatever Greek word you are attaching to it.  And, Yes, this thread is about Russell and his ability to calculate a date unknown to Jesus and the angels and the early Christians, so that's why Russell is being referred to.

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Arauna said:

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the 'presence' of the Son of man will be..... This is referring to Jesus's 'presence' - when he is busy ruling - before the final arrival of the destruction to come. Allan also explained this.

And you say this took place in 1914 but Jesus said "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah." (Mt. 24:36; Mk. 13:32)

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Arauna said:

But please can you explain to me the following? Who the faithful and discreet slave is who  is "preaching the kingdom in the entire inhabited earth" to all the tribes and nations.... this is a sign of the end is it not in Matthew 24?  Verse 14 says so.  So this is a clear sign that we are in the time of the end -  then also read verse 43-45.  

Preaching the gospel of God's Kingdom has not been limited to the past 100 years!  It's been preached at least since the first century, and is still being preached today by faithful Christians.  All Christians are called to be faithful and sensible in fulfilling their ministries and walking with the Lord Jesus, ever on the alert for his return because we don't know when it will be.  It's a warning to stay on the alert for all Christians, it isn't a script for a play with various parts assigned to certain actors, nor is it a call for an elite clergy class being elevated over others.

Matthew 24:43-45 support what I've been saying, Jesus' return cannot be calculated from the Bible:

 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.  Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

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Arauna said:

Also go on to explain to me Luke 21: 24 , "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled."   What is this appointed time of the nations?   How do we know what it is  - and how long is it? Did God just put it there as decoration?... to sound important??? or does it have specific meaning for those who search through the scriptures in the time of the end. Daniel 12: 4 + 3 says: "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.Many will rove about,and the true knowledge will become abundant.”³  “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. (they will be preaching). 

Look at the context of Luke 21:24.

Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. ²¹ Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; ²² because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. ²³ Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; ²⁴ and they will fall by⁽the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Doesn't that sound to you like what happened in the year 70 A.D.?

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Arauna said:

Who is Michael who "will stand up?": in this verse Daniel 1: “During that time Miʹchael will stand up, the great prince, who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. "

Is it part of the timeline of God? Matthew 24 also refers to Daniel  does it not?  So this shows that some prophesy in Daniel has reference to the end...

Michael is the arch angel.  How are you relating this to Jesus' return in 1914?

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Arauna said:

I suggest you read : What does the Bible really teach.... and analyze all the scriptures about the " trampling of the nations" and the one who "has the right to the throne".

I am done now.  There are many people out there who want to know what these scriptures mean....

Thank you for the suggestion, and, if this is Good-bye, thank you for your time and consideration.