Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

[Donald Diamond]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I never said that the Son and the Father were not equal, just the opposite actually.  

Jesus is claiming to be God, or else why would the Jews want to kill him? It is clear in the text, based upon the statement Jesus made. Then He goes on to say we must honor Him just as we honor the Father.

Well Shiwiii, I have quoted what you said.  It is here:

http://forum.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/5838-do-people-really-need-to-know-and-use-the-word-jehovah-or-other-language-equivalents-to-truly-know-god/?do=findComment&comment=8247

This is what you said and what I was addressing:

" I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. "

If the Father is over the Son, they are not equal.

If you read the greater context (ie the gospel records) you will see that the Jews (which in the gospels generally means the leaders of the Jews) sought to kill Jesus, and they were prepared to bear false witness against him.   They were intimidated by him and were afraid he would cause an adverse reaction from the Romans.  Have you not read that?

The accusations made against Jesus were:

a) He broke the sabbath

b) He made himself equal with God.

If Jesus broke the sabbath, he would be a sinner - Jesus was born under the law.

So both these accusations were false.   The most likely explanation is that the leaders were attempting to turn the people against him.  They wanted Jesus dead.  That accords with the greater and nearer context.

What the text tells us is that we are to honour the Son as we honour the Father who is over the Son and grants him authority over the judgement and raising the dead..

We honour them for different reasons.   Therefore arguments about "equal honour" are meaningless.

D

[Shiwiii]

7 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

But you just agreed with me when you said:

" I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son.  "

So your argument is that Jesus was claiming equality with God, even though you accept that Jesus was not equal in authority.  Am I the only one who finds your argument self-contradictory?

D

No, they are not equal in authority,  the Son is subject to the Father. Just like you are subject to your boss. But you are equally humans. Outside of your work, you are both treated equally.

[Donald Diamond]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No, they are not equal in authority,  the Son is subject to the Father. Just like you are subject to your boss. But you are equally humans. Outside of your work, you are both treated equally.

Supreme authority is an attribute of God. You find that all over scripture.   You appear to have invented two god-persons, one of whom is supreme, and the other who is not, but is subject to the first.  This is confusion, and the passage does not support such a notion.    

The passage says nothing about whether the Son and the Father are equally God - it is about the inequality in authority between the Father and the Son which leads to the Father granting the Son authority in judgement and raising the dead - something he does not have of his own accord.   This refutes any notion that Jesus is claiming equality with God.

D 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Donald Diamond said:

Supreme authority is an attribute of God. You find that all over scripture.   You appear to have invented two god-persons, one of whom is supreme, and the other who is not, but is subject to the first.  This is confusion, and the passage does not support such a notion.    

The passage says nothing about whether the Son and the Father are equally God - it is about the inequality in authority between the Father and the Son which leads to the Father granting the Son authority in judgement and raising the dead - something he does not have of his own accord.   This refutes any notion that Jesus is claiming equality with God.

D 

I Don't agree. Why would Jesus say to honor Him the same as his Father? You are trying to invent different kinds of honor. 

[JaniceM]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Hi JaniceM,

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

 

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already.  I will try to respond to your other mail later today if I don't get bogged down with others here.  I also have to work 2 jobs next few weeks, so please excuse me if I don't answer right away.  I do try to read all your responses to me and everyone.  Also, it appears you may be getting some of my quotes mixed up with Shiwii. 

 

I guess I'm not fully understanding your concern or I don't see it as a major problem.  I try not to sweat the small stuff.

 

I read all the verses you quoted how the Lord or Jesus has stars in his hand, and the society stating he directs the stars/elders, or something to that effect.  Then you mentioned something about the anointed.  It got a little confusing for me.

 

Witness said:

Firstly, the stars do not only mean anointed elders, but all anointed ones within the Body of Christ, his Temple priests.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20

 

We're all directed by God's holy spirit in different ways.  If the society speculates on what certain verses mean toward the anointed or bodies of elders, I may agree with their speculations or not.  As long as they are not telling me I need to worship them, they can make whatever speculations about the way they feel God or Christ is directing us, the elders, the anointed, or the organization.

 

I do however have a problem with being told I can't speculate on some verses because someone decides their speculations have changed.  But it's still not a bone of contention to cause me to dismiss my faith as others have done because I do agree with the main tenets of faith if not all in their entirety or my views have changed somewhat on certain issues.

 

I've read older publications of the society that I have not totally agreed with or completely understood.  The society has also rejected some earlier views as well.  Often I look at commentaries online for opinions of certain verses.  Some are similar, but of the hundreds/thousands, with their different speculations, I can agree or not, as their speculations can change over time as well.  It's my choice what to accept or believe.  No one can reach inside my mind.  I don't have to be overly discontent and write letters to the editor to tell them they are going above their authority about what some verse means.

 

There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be.  Their complaints constantly buzzing in my ears and nit-picking everything in every publication, made me more concerned about what they said rather than my faith and relationship with Jehovah and focusing on the commandments and work Jesus instructed us to do.  So now I say to anyone, tell me what you feel is the right way to go.  They might suggest their faith or denomination, but usually, they can't give me an answer, other than list all the so-called cults to stay away from.  They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not. 

 

Witness said:

In the house of the Lord, his Temple, only chosen priests were to serve.  The house of the Lord today is Christ’s Body, his Temple members, holy priesthood which are the anointed ones. Since the early temple was a shadow of the heavenly one, it takes the spiritual eye to see that the transgressing of the Temple today is through the elder arrangement esteemed to be the “stars” in Christ’s right hand.

Witness said:

The elder body are the “others” who have taken the place of the anointed ones; by doing so, God’s sanctuary is profaned. The have “entered” it by replacing God’s choice of whom should serve the people.

Witness said:

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

[Donald Diamond]

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I Don't agree. Why would Jesus say to honor Him the same as his Father? You are trying to invent different kinds of honor. 

You may not agree (which is fine).   However, you appear to be arguing that the Son was claiming to be equal with God, while you also maintain that the Son was NOT equal to the Father in authority,    That is a self contradictory argument.  The fact that you can't see that is disappointing.  

I have specifically addressed the question you ask here.  We are told to honour the Son as we honour the Father because the Father has granted the Son authority over the judgement and raising the dead.

John 5:22, 23 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. (ASV)

I feel you have not addressed any of my arguments which directly deal with the points you made.  However, I am happy to leave it for the readers to make up their own minds.  

D

[Shiwiii]

7 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

You may not agree (which is fine).   However, you appear to be arguing that the Son was claiming to be equal with God, while you also maintain that the Son was NOT equal to the Father in authority,    That is a self contradictory argument.  The fact that you can't see that is disappointing.  

I have specifically addressed the question you ask here.  We are told to honour the Son as we honour the Father because the Father has granted the Son authority over the judgement and raising the dead.

John 5:22, 23 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. (ASV)

I feel you have not addressed any of my arguments which directly deal with the points you made.  However, I am happy to leave it for the readers to make up their own minds.  

D

It is actually not a contradiction. You and I are equal as being human. We are not equal when it comes to authority. If you were a Judge and I was a lawyer, in your court you would have the authority. In the street, we are equal. 

What we are disagreeing on, is not why, but rather the degree of honor. You and others here have inserted different forms of honor to be applied to the Son and to the Father. I am saying that there is no difference, one must honor both equally.

[Witness]

17 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already. 

 

You mean it is longer than “two miles”? J  Matt 5:41

Your words, “There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. “

Where is it that you feel you need to be in order to maintain your faith?  I think the question for all of us is where do we seat our faith. 

Is it here?

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" WT ‘81/11/15 p.212

Or is it here?

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:11-12

Do you see what has happened?  God has given us salvation simply through Christ only, and not through any other route, name, identity, organization.  If we don’t accept this, we too, have rejected the cornerstone just as those early Jews did.  1 Cor 1:23

“For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”  1 Pet 2:6-8

Your words “They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.”

There are a few on here that preach Jesus’ message, but are not part of the organization.  Would you consider them part of the “preaching work”?  Preaching is always in truth, - Jesus - and in imitation of the early apostles who focused their preaching on Jesus' glory as well as the Father'; and nothing else, be it doctrine of men that changes, or an organization viewed as pertinent to our identity.

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,  “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,  so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,  and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues  and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.”  Matt 23:1-7, 8-36

Your words “Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not.”

We do all receive Holy Spirit if God allows it to happen through our own supplications in harmony with his will.  With the anointed ones, the light of Christ is to shine from within them.  This light is given to these children of God in order to bring all mankind who are willing, also to the light – they, in turn, become children of God in God’s Kingdom. 

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.  Matt 5:14,15

In order for the Body of Christ to shine as illuminators, it has to be recognized, which is impossible through suppression in the organization.  Phil 2:15 (stars in Christ's right hand - Dan 12:3) 

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  John 15:16

Through the ignorance of this light given anointed who are required to let it shine, it is viewed by the organization with the same misunderstanding as Jesus’ light,

“The Light shines in the darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it”   John 1:5

Their light is poured into the heart by Holy Spirit in a unique way; when one works in harmony with God in recognizing this light, they receive comprehension of love and Christ’s laws, which are then manifested within these anointed ones - and they are to shine as stars. 1 Cor 14:41; Matt 5:16   By abolishing their own servitude as priests and allowing others to serve, the organization has set up an abomination, according to God.

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)  Matt 24:15

The holy place is God’s Temple arrangement – the Body of Christ.  This is a spiritual fulfillment within and among God’s own people.  It has always been seen that abominations are found within his own people.  It has also always occurred that holy ones can choose to resist this blessing of Holy Spirit through their own arrogance and out of their lack of fear toward God.   Deut 13:12-15; Luke 23:40; Rom 3:10-18; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 Tim 4:16

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:16  “Judea” is the location of Israel, spiritual “Israel” today are the chosen ones. Rom 11:26 If we recognize this oppression, we are to flee, spiritually and physically to the heavenly mountain, Zion – to God and Christ.  

"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"  Heb 10:29 (Dan 8:10,13; Matt 5:13)

I’ll stop here, as I’ve probably past the two mile mark.  This is food for serious thought and do not feel obligated to respond, as it sounds like you are quite busy, but I have and will continue to appreciate reading your comments. 

 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  1 Pet 4:17

 

 

[JaniceM]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

 

You mean it is longer than “two miles”? J  Matt 5:41

 

Your words, “There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. “

1).

Where is it that you feel you need to be in order to maintain your faith?  I think the question for all of us is where do we seat our faith. 

2).

Is it here?

 

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" WT ‘81/11/15 p.212

 

Or is it here?

 

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:11-12

 

Do you see what has happened?  God has given us salvation simply through Christ only, and not through any other route, name, identity, organization.  If we don’t accept this, we too, have rejected the cornerstone just as those early Jews did.  1 Cor 1:23

3).

“For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”  1 Pet 2:6-8

 

Your words “They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.”

4).

There are a few on here that preach Jesus’ message, but are not part of the organization.  Would you consider them part of the “preaching work”?  Preaching is always in truth, - Jesus - and in imitation of the early apostles who focused their preaching on Jesus' glory as well as the Father'; and nothing else, be it doctrine of men that changes, or an organization viewed as pertinent to our identity.

5).

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

 

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,  “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,  so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,  and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues  and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.”  Matt 23:1-7, 8-36

6).

Your words “Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not.”

 

We do all receive Holy Spirit if God allows it to happen through our own supplications in harmony with his will.  With the anointed ones, the light of Christ is to shine from within them.  This light is given to these children of God in order to bring all mankind who are willing, also to the light – they, in turn, become children of God in God’s Kingdom. 

 

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.  Matt 5:14,15

 

In order for the Body of Christ to shine as illuminators, it has to be recognized, which is impossible through suppression in the organization.  Phil 2:15 (stars in Christ's right hand - Dan 12:3) 

 

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  John 15:16

 

Through the ignorance of this light given anointed who are required to let it shine, it is viewed by the organization with the same misunderstanding as Jesus’ light,

 

“The Light shines in the darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it”   John 1:5

 

Their light is poured into the heart by Holy Spirit in a unique way; when one works in harmony with God in recognizing this light, they receive comprehension of love and Christ’s laws, which are then manifested within these anointed ones - and they are to shine as stars. 1 Cor 14:41; Matt 5:16   By abolishing their own servitude as priests and allowing others to serve, the organization has set up an abomination, according to God.

 

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)  Matt 24:15

 

The holy place is God’s Temple arrangement – the Body of Christ.  This is a spiritual fulfillment within and among God’s own people.  It has always been seen that abominations are found within his own people.  It has also always occurred that holy ones can choose to resist this blessing of Holy Spirit through their own arrogance and out of their lack of fear toward God.   Deut 13:12-15; Luke 23:40; Rom 3:10-18; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 Tim 4:16

 

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:16  “Judea” is the location of Israel, spiritual “Israel” today are the chosen ones. Rom 11:26 If we recognize this oppression, we are to flee, spiritually and physically to the heavenly mountain, Zion – to God and Christ.  

 

"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"  Heb 10:29 (Dan 8:10,13; Matt 5:13)

 

I’ll stop here, as I’ve probably past the two mile mark.  This is food for serious thought and do not feel obligated to respond, as it sounds like you are quite busy, but I have and will continue to appreciate reading your comments. 

 

 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  1 Pet 4:17

 

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4. 

 

1).   My faith needed to be strong and I hadn't built up a strong core or backbone.  Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth, it was easy to yield to my own weaknesses and the relentless attacks for several years after getting baptized; now, although imperfect, unshakeable.

 

2).   Context is everything and my official response will come later.  Again, it's not always a matter of here or there, this or that.  Upon speaking for many years with many aggressive atheists, Muslims, etc., we've had to deal with the same sort of 'your Bible is corrupt 101/1001 contradictions in the Bible, flip flop, wishy washy, make believe fairy tale God/god holy book written by men.'  'Your Paul is a liar (no works)/James (you must have works); God said count the men/Satan said count the fighting men; Jesus (no one has seen God)/men saw God and had lunch with him.)' (smile) 

So you see the problem here . . . which left us scrambling for we were not about to let anyone get the best of our holy book and trample those precious peals under our feet.  With God's help, pure tenacity and using Watchtower and other online websites, and resources, letting scripture explain scripture, we were able to help also other Christians shut down their arguments before the dust settled.  With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?'  I'm glad I didn't feed into the propaganda, and just lay down and die.  I was able to use their own Trinitarian commentaries against them.

 

3).   We do believe in Jesus and have always said so.

 

4).   I recall Jesus saying to the effect, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-34)

 

Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness. 

 

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (NWT)

 

Jesus said unto them, "I must announce the gospel of the kingdom of God to other cities also because for this am I sent." ““And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”” (Luke 4:43 Jubilee Bible) (Matt 24:14 KJV)

 

5). Jesus was concerned with paying attention to even  the smallest letter of the law.  This in itself was not dangerous, but beneficial.  Paying attention to the trivial traditions of the Pharisees made their worship in vain.   

 

 Witness said:

It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

*I can agree, paying attention to every nonessential detail or sayings of men can be dangerous and quite burdensome.  At this point, I don't see where we are over burdened in following the commandments of Jesus, although I have had to deal with some overbearing brothers and sisters that insist the Watchtower has never been wrong or are quick to label one an brother for thinking a little outside the box.  The Watchtower itself has to my knowledge never said they were infallible or always correct.

 

6)  I'm not sure how much more efficiently things could be done, as I see we are all working together in the body of Christ as publishers of the good news.  God is not powerless to accomplish his will toward his anointed ones or any of us.  God is not powerless to remove those nor favorable disposed.  

 

Not sweating the small stuff means not focusing on everything wrong.  God does not focus on everything we do or say wrong, but our desire to worship him and do the right things according to his will.  Many of those anointed or appointed by Christ, said, thought and did the wrong things, so this is agreeable, we can't put anyone upon a pedestal.

 

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

 

I'll wait for your response before I proceed.

[Witness]

On 4/21/2016 at 3:20 PM, JaniceM said:

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4.  

 

I inserted the above from your last post, which I could'n't quote properly for some reason.  I would beg to go 6, but I think I’ve already been there J

It is pretty clear to me that you feel the organization has God’s blessing because of the accomplishment of what you call, the “preaching work”.  Although, remembering the quotes I had given earlier about serving God through such a thing, we find it is not needed.

As far as preaching, we also find many who do it and I am not saying they are correct. We could go on about the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Gideon’s International, Catholic Church….all preaching about a Kingdom to come, as well as Jesus, and adding up to billions of members.

You said, “Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth” 

 What is the truth to you?  Is it Christ, 1914, the organization…?

You said, ”With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?”

Considering the opposite meanings that I have presented you from the Watchtower, I should ask you, what else are they lying about?

 You said, “Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness.”

There you go; you hit the nail on the head.  This is what makes the organization different from any other.  Inside are anointed ones, but have you ever wondered why this is so?  It has everything to do with Matt 7:21-34 that you quoted.  As established from the quotes I have listed from the Watchtower itself, giving one’s obedience to an organization is idolatry.  It has been established as fact by the organization itself.  Yet, they continue to mislead, causing one to question just what is right but following the majority without question.  The anointed ones must follow in Christ’s footsteps.  What does this entail? 

They must desire to be found “clean” by God.

 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;  2 Pet 3:14

If there is any wayward teaching accepted, “double-talk”, are they without spot and blameless?  Can they practice idolatry and be viewed as blameless?  Ps 12:2

If God’s arrangement of teaching through anointed ones is ignored, are they blameless? The priesthood, each and every anointed one, has to be cleansed in order to part of the Bride.  Satan is their biggest enemy who seeks to destroy Christ’s seed.  His deceptions have always been based on deceit and lies, confusion and false sense of security which the organization teaches it provides. 

Chosen stars can fall through temptation and a gift of power.  Prov 16:5; Rom 11:18; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 13:5; 13:15

“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”  Heb 4:11

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”  1 John 2:19

“looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:15

Wormwood is a “root of bitterness” - O you who turn justice to wormwood and cast down righteousness to the earth!  Amos 5:7

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.  The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.  Rev 8:11

Water represents teachings in the bible, and while this particular water started as truth, it turned bitter and poisonous through lies by a fallen chosen “star”. 

God allows a deception to fall on his people as a time of refinement and discipline.  Just as he allowed Satan to test Job, all who desire to truly follow in Christ’s footsteps are tested – by Satan, as Christ was tested by Satan on the mountain.  Our “captivity” to impure teachings is allowed by the Father in the end times.  If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God (Prov 14:12) and it’s the only way I’m going to get through the Great Tribulation (Luke21:36; Matt.24:24,25)….you are then following in Christ’s footsteps, and confessing Jesus before men.  Matt 10:32

What follows is likely a disfellowshipping, a mark of “spiritual death”, as you turn your back on the organization and is a continuance on the continued path to Christ, bearing the same disgrace he bore.   Rev 13:15

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2

“Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.”  Heb 13:13

Who was it who persecuted Jesus, but his own people?  Who persecutes and passes judgment on their own people but the organization? Which leads me back to your last scripture that Jesus aptly applied to the Pharisees and which can be applied to those in authority in the organization:

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.  Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

The only way the “wise virgins” make it is because they listen to Christ!  They responded to his call in repentance.

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”  Rev 3:18

Those not producing fruit from a refined heart (Luke6:45,44), are lopped off the vine of Christ and cannot partake of the marriage feast.

This is an ongoing subject, and there is more in your post that I would like to comment on, but I think I’ve hit the 2 mile mark again.

I’ll be on the road for a few days.  Thank you for replying even though you are quite busy. 

 

 

 

 

[JaniceM]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I inserted the above from your last post, which I could'n't quote properly for some reason.  I would beg to go 6, but I think I’ve already been there J

 

It is pretty clear to me that you feel the organization has God’s blessing because of the accomplishment of what you call, the “preaching work”.  Although, remembering the quotes I had given earlier about serving God through such a thing, we find it is not needed.

 

As far as preaching, we also find many who do it and I am not saying they are correct. We could go on about the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Gideon’s International, Catholic Church….all preaching about a Kingdom to come, as well as Jesus, and adding up to billions of members.

 

You said, “Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth” 

1).

 What is the truth to you?  Is it Christ, 1914, the organization…?

 

You said, ”With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?”

 

Considering the opposite meanings that I have presented you from the Watchtower, I should ask you, what else are they lying about?

 

 You said, “Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness.”

2).

There you go; you hit the nail on the head.  This is what makes the organization different from any other.  Inside are anointed ones, but have you ever wondered why this is so?  It has everything to do with Matt 7:21-34 that you quoted.  As established from the quotes I have listed from the Watchtower itself, giving one’s obedience to an organization is idolatry.  It has been established as fact by the organization itself.  Yet, they continue to mislead, causing one to question just what is right but following the majority without question.  The anointed ones must follow in Christ’s footsteps.  What does this entail? 

 

They must desire to be found “clean” by God.

 

 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

 

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;  2 Pet 3:14

 

If there is any wayward teaching accepted, “double-talk”, are they without spot and blameless?  Can they practice idolatry and be viewed as blameless?  Ps 12:2

 

If God’s arrangement of teaching through anointed ones is ignored, are they blameless? The priesthood, each and every anointed one, has to be cleansed in order to part of the Bride.  Satan is their biggest enemy who seeks to destroy Christ’s seed.  His deceptions have always been based on deceit and lies, confusion and false sense of security which the organization teaches it provides. 

Chosen stars can fall through temptation and a gift of power.  Prov 16:5; Rom 11:18; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 13:5; 13:15

 

“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”  Heb 4:11

 

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”  1 John 2:19

 

“looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:15

 

Wormwood is a “root of bitterness” - O you who turn justice to wormwood and cast down righteousness to the earth!  Amos 5:7

 

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.  The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.  Rev 8:11

 

Water represents teachings in the bible, and while this particular water started as truth, it turned bitter and poisonous through lies by a fallen chosen “star”. 

3).

God allows a deception to fall on his people as a time of refinement and discipline.  Just as he allowed Satan to test Job, all who desire to truly follow in Christ’s footsteps are tested – by Satan, as Christ was tested by Satan on the mountain.  Our “captivity” to impure teachings is allowed by the Father in the end times.  If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God (Prov 14:12) and it’s the only way I’m going to get through the Great Tribulation (Luke21:36; Matt.24:24,25)….you are then following in Christ’s footsteps, and confessing Jesus before men.  Matt 10:32

 

What follows is likely a disfellowshipping, a mark of “spiritual death”, as you turn your back on the organization and is a continuance on the continued path to Christ, bearing the same disgrace he bore.   Rev 13:15

 

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2

 

“Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.”  Heb 13:13

 

Who was it who persecuted Jesus, but his own people?  Who persecutes and passes judgment on their own people but the organization? Which leads me back to your last scripture that Jesus aptly applied to the Pharisees and which can be applied to those in authority in the organization:

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.  Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

 

The only way the “wise virgins” make it is because they listen to Christ!  They responded to his call in repentance.

 

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”  Rev 3:18

 

Those not producing fruit from a refined heart (Luke6:45,44), are lopped off the vine of Christ and cannot partake of the marriage feast.

 

This is an ongoing subject, and there is more in your post that I would like to comment on, but I think I’ve hit the 2 mile mark again.

 

I’ll be on the road for a few days.  Thank you for replying even though you are quite busy. 

 

I'll be wrapping things up by the end of the week, so I'll get the other mail out to you tomorrow perhaps.

1.  My experiences growing up among the churches was being surrounded by teachings of my soul floating away to heaven or burning in hell.  I never heard anything about the kingdom of God until I started studying with JWs.  I have had experience with Mormons visiting our home maybe once in my lifetime, but it wasn't to preach about God's kingdom.  I think that the gospel of the kingdom was one of the essential gospel messages of Christ and a duty for all to declare.  So when I speak of truth, it's about the kingdom of Christ and the benefits it would bring to mankind.  I prayed to God to show me the truth and his people and he did, and for the most part my questions were answered.  There is no religion or denomination totally correct about everything or they would be perfect, and there is no denomination I agree with on everything.  They are all imperfect bodies of people.  However, when I left the churches, just as many others, I was determined to never set foot in one again.  Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.

 

2.  From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections, however, I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine. 

 

3.  I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.

Witness said:

If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God

 

We realize there is some judging of serious matters within the congregation, but we don't want to be judging or finding fault continuously with the imperfections of each other or picking at straws.

 

I understand you are on the road so I'll cease here.  If there are any further issues feel free to reply when you can.  I still have a reply for your 04/19 posting, which I will post within the next day or two.

[Donald Diamond]

On 4/22/2016 at 4:36 PM, Shiwiii said:

It is actually not a contradiction. You and I are equal as being human. We are not equal when it comes to authority. If you were a Judge and I was a lawyer, in your court you would have the authority. In the street, we are equal. 

What we are disagreeing on, is not why, but rather the degree of honor. You and others here have inserted different forms of honor to be applied to the Son and to the Father. I am saying that there is no difference, one must honor both equally.

Sorry for delay in replying.   The text simple says that in relation to authority over judgement and raising the dead, we should honour the delegatee as we would the delegator.   That is not a difficult concept.  

The problem you need to deal with is that supreme authority is an essential attribute of God.  Try reading from chapter 40 of Isaiah and you will see that repeated chapter after chapter.  So it is simply not possible for the Father and Son to be equally God while not being equal in authority.   IMHO you are putting the false accusation of the Jewish leaders ahead of the plain statements of Jesus.

As I have pointed out before, your argument leads to two god persons, one of whom is dependent for his authority on the other.  I cannot see that in scripture.

D