Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

[Jesus.defender]

13 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Below are some references online to the divine name in other Bibles or some older manuscripts or fragments:

1.   http://www.eliyah.com/yhwhdss.html  - "Yahweh's name is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over 2200 times."

 

2.  (Removal of God's name replaced with LORD) 

  KJV - Psalm 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

  NKJV - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth. 

 

 

3.  https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-divine-namespoken-by-jesus-and-early-christians/

" However, there were evidences found out from some fragments of original Septuagint which have excavated as it was from the Old Testament written in Greek. One of these fragments was found by researchers and gave them a dating from 50 B.C. to 50 C.E. Below are pictures of those fragments which contain tetragrammaton and had taken from Wikipedia’s site.  You can see the picture from this link site: http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html"  ". . . Thus he denied the evidence of Origen that in the more accurate manuscripts the Divine Name was written in ancient (palaeo-Hebrew) script and the later testimony of Jerome to the same effect. As Waddell pointed out, Baudissin’s summary statement is “flatly disproved” by the Fouad Papyrus, and now a Qumran fragment of Leviticus ii-iv, written in a hand closely akin to Fouad 266, has been found to render the Tetragrammaton by IAW. Kahle is also of the opinion, and claims the concurrence of C.H. Roberts, that in the Rylands Papyrus Greek 458, at Deuteronomy xxvi.17 where the text breaks off just before the appearance of the Divine Name, the original bore not Kyrios as Roberts originally supposed, but the unabridged Tetragrammaton. It would seem therefore that the evidence most recently to hand is tending to confirm the testimony of Origen and Jerome, and that Kahle is right in holding that LXX texts, written by Jews for Jews, retained the Divine Name in Hebrew Letters (palaeo-Hebrew or Aramaic) or in the Greek imitative form PIPI, and that its replacement by Kyrios was a Christian innovation.^[22]"

"The fact is, according also to some Talmud that have found, there are rabbis who killed people with scrolls having tetragrammaton and who did not refrain from pronouncing the divine name. The underlying fact is that they gathered most of the scrolls with tetragrammaton and burned them all and have made new copies of scrolls of the Old Testament with Kurios/Kyrios. And consequently have scrupulously translated new manuscripts of the New Testament with Kyrios as a substitute for tetragrammaton and then buried their revised scrolls."

We are talking about the KJV, not the NKJV.

 

Show me PROOF that Gods name was REMOVED from the KJV.

 

Show me WHEN it was removed, WHO removed it and the ORIGINAL that shows it in there.

[JaniceM]

14 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

But you JWS say that it was removed from the KJV.

Hi Defender,

What they may be referring to are later translations of the KJB like the NKJV and others:

New King James Version - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

King James 2000 Bible - Psalms 83:18 - That men may know that you, whose name alone is the LORD, are the most high over all the earth.

 

However, some older translations still contain the name in a few verses:

King James Bible  - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

American King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

[Jesus.defender]

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Hi Defender,

What they may be referring to are later translations of the KJB like the NKJV and others:

New King James Version - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

King James 2000 Bible - Psalms 83:18 - That men may know that you, whose name alone is the LORD, are the most high over all the earth.

 

However, some older translations still contain the name in a few verses:

King James Bible  - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

American King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

Well, i dont think they said which, they implied ALL Bibles are guilty of it.

 

[JaniceM]

3 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

Well, i dont think they said which, they implied ALL Bibles are guilty of it.

 

Yes, that statement is a bit exaggerated.  Because most English Bibles did not contain the divine name at all, many witnesses will state that or because they may not be as studious as some others to make comparisons.  However, several English translations have worked to add it back in many places.

[Queen Esther]

3 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Hi Defender,

What they may be referring to are later translations of the KJB like the NKJV and others:

New King James Version - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

King James 2000 Bible - Psalms 83:18 - That men may know that you, whose name alone is the LORD, are the most high over all the earth.

 

However, some older translations still contain the name in a few verses:

King James Bible  - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

American King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

We  not  have  to  see  all  questions  here  too  serious,  hahaha  -  We  all  learned  it  better  by  meeting  and  reading  in  our  Bible...  I  not  take  my  time  for  these  things... I'm  watching  behind  that  all....  its  not  importend  for us  JW  believe  me !

[Queen Esther]

Not  our  Organisation  is  on  first  place...  thats  only  the  Bible, Jehovah's  WORD !  My  own  opinion,   yes !

 

[Shiwiii]

Janice, do you not see how difficult it is to provide evidence that the name jehovah was in the NT, even the source you quote says it's not there, but rather "thinks" it was there  (George Howard).

It's just not there, and when a quote is in the NT, it is attributed to Jesus. Why do you think that is there? Your leaders have inserted the name jehovah in certain places where it fits their beliefs and not where it doesn't. 

It IS in the Septuagint,  no doubt about that. Just remember that the Septuagint is the OT and not the NT

[Shiwiii]

9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

I do apologize, I thought I was responding to defender as it seems that chip is still on your shoulder.  To clarify the matter, I understand your main concern is with the NT and not the OT.

There is some proof that the original writings of the NT did contain the divine name, but upon speaking with so many about this issue, it appears they would prefer solid proof like a NT manuscript or fragment of sort that contains the complete tetragrammaton of God's name whereas we only have a short form of God's name in the NT that is also pronounced in the names of many Jews and prophets.  I'm also not quite sure the reason or backlash against JWs on this matter as this argument did not start with JWs, and neither did they make it up.  At any rate, below are some examples or quotes concerning these issues, which I'm sure you may already be aware of, so excuse me for being redundant:

 

1).  HALLELUJAH - (Hal·le·lu′jah). A transliteration of the Hebrew expression ha·lelu-Yah′, appearing first at Psalm 104:35.

 

(Psalm 104:35) The sinners will be finished off from the earth; And as for the wicked, they will be no longer. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise Jah, YOU people! (NWT)

 

Rev 19:1  King James Bible - And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19:1 - New International Version - After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

(Revelation 19:1) After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, (NWT)

 

2.  "Some examples include Isaiah [Jehovah's help or salvation], Jehoshua [Jehovah a helper], Jehu [Jehovah is He]. In the entry, Jehovah, Smith writes: "JEHOVAH (יְהֹוָה, usually with the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי; but when the two occur together, the former is pointed יֱהֹוִה, that is with the vowels of אֱלֹהִים, as in Obad. i. 1, Hab. iii. 19:"^[96] This practice is also observed in many modern publications, such as the New Compact Bible Dictionary (Special Crusade Edition) of 1967 and Peloubet's Bible Dictionary of 1947."  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

 

(Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].”

 

"The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ("my Lord"). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.^[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

 

 

3.  "Origen wrote of the Septuagint: “In the most accurate manuscripts THE NAME occurs in Hebrew characters, yet not in today’s Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones.” - http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/

 

4.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament:

A passage recorded in the Hebrew Tosefta, Shabbat 13:5, quoting Tarfon is sometimes cited to suggest that early Christian writings or copies contained the Tetragrammaton.^[5]

Shabbat 13:5

— A. The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim they do not save from a fire [on the Sabbath]. They are allowed to burn up where they are, they and [even] the references to the Divine Name that are in them.^[6]

This same source quotes Rabbi Jose the Galilean (who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries of the common era): “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”^{[citation needed]}

Laurence Schiffman^[7] views this as a discussion of whether to rescue section of the sifre minim (Hebrew language texts of Jewish Christians) containing the tetragrammata from a house fire. Another interpretation suggests this is a reference to Old Testament Torah and not the Gospels.^[8]

Although none of the extant Greek New Testament manuscripts contain the Tetragrammaton, scholar George Howard has suggested that the Tetragrammaton appeared in the original New Testament autographs,^[9] and that "the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates κυριος and θεος blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ."^[9] In the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Howard states: "There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the OT quotations in the NT when the NT documents were first penned."^[9]:392

Along with Howard, David Trobisch and Rolf Furuli both have suggested that the Tetragrammaton may have been removed from the Greek manuscripts.^{[10]:66–67[11]:179–191} In the book Archaeology and the New Testament, John McRay wrote of the possibility that the New Testament autographs may have retained the divine name in quotations from the Old Testament.^[12]Robert Baker Girdlestone stated in 1871 that if the Septuagint had used "one Greek word for Jehovah and another for Adonai, such usage would doubtless have been retained in the discourses and arguments of the N.T. Thus our Lord in quoting the 110th Psalm,...might have said 'Jehovah said unto Adoni.'"^[13] Since Girdlestone's time it has been shown that the Septuagint contained the Tetragrammaton, but that it was removed in later editions.^[14]

You are quoting something NOT the Bible. And when you quote sources of the Bible it is the Septuagint.  Think about that

[Shiwiii]

Also, this idea that it is disrespectful not to use God's name.... how did Jesus tell us to pray? "Our Father" do you call your father by his name????  That would be disrespectful if you did. You try it with your human father and see his reaction.  The intimacy we have (should have as the scriptures tell us Romans 8:11-15) with the Father tells us to address Him intimately as we do our human father!

[JaniceM]

33 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Janice, do you not see how difficult it is to provide evidence that the name jehovah was in the NT, even the source you quote says it's not there, but rather "thinks" it was there  (George Howard).

It's just not there, and when a quote is in the NT, it is attributed to Jesus. Why do you think that is there? Your leaders have inserted the name jehovah in certain places where it fits their beliefs and not where it doesn't. 

It IS in the Septuagint,  no doubt about that. Just remember that the Septuagint is the OT and not the NT

Shiwii,

I understand your point of view although we are not on the same page.  All we have are copies of the OT and NT, and we can't say definitely that God's name was not also originally included in the NT.  A few other Bible translations have also chosen to include God's name in the OT instead of LORD/Lord, GOD/God; still less in the NT where especially Jesus would have quoted from the OT; or use all caps where there was a direct quote from the OT. 

Matthew 4:10     New American Standard Bible  - Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Matthew 4:10  New Living Translation  - "Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"

Matthew 4:10  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Then Yeshua said to him, “Depart Satan, for it is written: 'You shall worship THE LORD JEHOVAH your God and him alone shall you serve.' “
 

Reasoning being, one:  The divine name more than likely occurred in the original NT writings and scribes continued their habit of switching the divine name with Lord or God instead.  Two:  The Almighty God wanted his name known in all the world having been recorded perhaps over 7,000 times in the OT.  It would be illogical for Jesus not to have used God's name while on earth, and it should have been  recorded exactly the way he said it, assuming God did not give a command to the apostles or disciples to specifically forbid it's usage either verbally or written beginning with the NT.  This would not make sense.

 

I understand some scholars find including God's name in the NT to be outrageous, however, I think they should be more outraged with God's name being removed/replaced entirely with words that were not originally there (LORD/Lord, GOD/God) causing this confusion to began with.  For me it is outrageous that I spent a good portion of my life growing up thinking God's name is God.  I can only imagine how God felt about this indifference to his holy name.

At any rate, God is judge and will render judgment concerning his name whether we are right or wrong.  God has sufficiently told us everything we need in order to gain salvation.

I have not researched specifically ever instance of where the NWT has inserted the name Jehovah.  However, if there are any special instances where you think it changed the meaning of any particular verse, perhaps we can discuss that and it will give me the opportunity to do my homework.  I am quite busy there days so it might take me a while to answer back.

[JaniceM]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You are quoting something NOT the Bible. And when you quote sources of the Bible it is the Septuagint.  Think about that

The above quotes were to point out Bibles or holy writings were burned with the Divine name, and that may have included many of the NT writings with the Divine Name.  I'm not understanding the condemnation of including God's name in his Word whereas there is not the same condemnation for the way it was so carefully excluded.  We also still have a short for of God's name mentioned in the NT (Yah/Jah) which is included in the name of many Jews and prophets.

[Shiwiii]

10 hours ago, JaniceM said:

The above quotes were to point out Bibles or holy writings were burned with the Divine name, and that may have included many of the NT writings with the Divine Name.  I'm not understanding the condemnation of including God's name in his Word whereas there is not the same condemnation for the way it was so carefully excluded.  We also still have a short for of God's name mentioned in the NT (Yah/Jah) which is included in the name of many Jews and prophets.

This is assuming that the name was there in the NT at all. You see,  the condemnation is that your writers/leaders have inserted into the Bible a name  that is not recorded to have been found in the NT. Very serious stuff. They insert based on assuming,  not by historical fact. They use the Septuagint as their proof, but most folks know that the Septuagint is just the OT. Going on a maybe or we think so, is dangerous because with out facts to back it up, it is very easy to insert erroneously and thus mislead people. The Bible is very clear not to add or take away. There is no proof that anyone took the tetragramatton out of the NT. If you would like to discuss a scripture or two that addresses Jesus where your leaders have inserted jehovah I can start a thread