Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

[Shiwiii]

3 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

I can understand them 'shaking the dust off their feet' as Jesus would say:  "Why am I even speaking to YOU at all?";   How we spend our time in the vindication of God's name is what's important, not hiding it.  (Matthew 10:14; John 8:25)  However, there other scholarly commentaries and writings available to consult other than the ones quoted above, which is a good thing as you don't have to continually depend upon Jehovah's Witnesses to answer all your questions.  In that regard, I'm not sure whether or not I should be flattered you think we are that important enough to keep asking.

Didn't you say you had more important things to do?

To your quote, Jesus had no problems speaking to anyone, tax collector (Matthew ), devout Jewish leader (Nicodemus ), even Judas. But you seem to believe He excluded those who asked questions.  

Yes,  pass the buck to someone else.  Like I said, usual answer for a jw who needs an escape.  

[JaniceM]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Didn't you say you had more important things to do?

To your quote, Jesus had no problems speaking to anyone, tax collector (Matthew ), devout Jewish leader (Nicodemus ), even Judas. But you seem to believe He excluded those who asked questions.  

Yes,  pass the buck to someone else.  Like I said, usual answer for a jw who needs an escape.  

 

Jesus, "on seeing the crowds he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd."  I also feel sorry for you Shiwii although not in the same way.  Jesus also said:  "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”  If we have not done so, it would benefit us all to read all of God's words.  (Matt 9:36; 4:4)

 

Jesus spoke even unto Satan and many opponents, but he did not always answer them in a way that satisfied them for their motives were not genuine.  In this way, he did not throw his pearls to swine. 

Matthew 27:11 Jesus now stood before the governor; and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say [it].” 12 But, while he was being accused by the chief priests and older men, he made no answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him: “Do you not hear how many things they are testifying against you?” 14 Yet he did not answer him, no, not a word, so that the governor wondered very much. 

Matthew 21:27 So in answer to Jesus they said: “We do not know.” He, in turn, said to them: “Neither am I telling YOU by what authority I do these things.

 

It is not true that no one here has spoken to you or answered your questions.  You just were not satisfied with the answers or quotes of scholars whether Christian or non-Christian sources.  Therefore you reverted back to old conversations and issues without addressing anyone in particular to change the subject, then plead for no one to answer you back; which I do think it is to no avail going around in circles.  "Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him."  (Proverbs 26:4)

 

Yes, I have more important things to do . . .  but I'm willing to butt heads with you a little longer at least through this evening.

[Shiwiii]

6 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Jesus, "on seeing the crowds he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd."  I also feel sorry for you Shiwii although not in the same way.  Jesus also said:  "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”  If we have not done so, it would benefit us all to read all of God's words.  (Matt 9:36; 4:4)

 

Jesus spoke even unto Satan and many opponents, but he did not always answer them in a way that satisfied them for their motives were not genuine.  In this way, he did not throw his pearls to swine. 

Matthew 27:11 Jesus now stood before the governor; and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say [it].” 12 But, while he was being accused by the chief priests and older men, he made no answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him: “Do you not hear how many things they are testifying against you?” 14 Yet he did not answer him, no, not a word, so that the governor wondered very much. 

Matthew 21:27 So in answer to Jesus they said: “We do not know.” He, in turn, said to them: “Neither am I telling YOU by what authority I do these things.

 

It is not true that no one here has spoken to you or answered your questions.  You just were not satisfied with the answers or quotes of scholars whether Christian or non-Christian sources.  Therefore you reverted back to old conversations and issues without addressing anyone in particular to change the subject, then plead for no one to answer you back; which I do think it is to no avail going around in circles.  "Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him."  (Proverbs 26:4)

 

Yes, I have more important things to do . . .  but I'm willing to butt heads with you a little longer at least through this evening.

It's funny how you have stated that answering me is foolishness and you feel as though you are "casting your pearls before swine ", but yet you continue.  Not only continue, but when presented with context of your "swine" quote and showing you that Jesus didn't dismiss questions,  you want to write three paragraphs in support of you not continuing.  Then state that you will....for the rest of the evening? !? Lol

Nice rabit hole, but I'm not following. 

You have exhausted your position,  I can see that. 

[JaniceM]

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

It's funny how you have stated that answering me is foolishness and you feel as though you are "casting your pearls before swine ", but yet you continue.  Not only continue, but when presented with context of your "swine" quote and showing you that Jesus didn't dismiss questions,  you want to write three paragraphs in support of you not continuing.  Then state that you will....for the rest of the evening? !? Lol

Nice rabit hole, but I'm not following. 

You have exhausted your position,  I can see that. 

 

It's funny how you're offended when I do not respond to foolishness and when I do have pity to respond, provide valuable information and answers, you're annoyed.  That was a mistake as feeling sorry for you does no good and appeasing you has exhausted all common sense.  

In a civil discussion, parties can agree to disagree if they can't come to a meeting of minds on any particular subject, not relent into temper tantrums, jump up and down, get mad and say leave me alone.  Please know the next time you feel compelled to engage in a conversation, a right attitude goes a long way and humility even farther as we can see from Jesus example below.  He refused to answer and then marveled at one woman's faith and humility, therefore granted her request. 

"Leaving there, Jesus now withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Si′don. And, look! a Phoe·ni′cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”  When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!”  In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.”  She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.”  Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on.  (Matthew 15:21-28)

[Shiwiii]

28 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

It's funny how you're offended when I do not respond to foolishness and when I do have pity to respond, provide valuable information and answers, you're annoyed.  That was a mistake as feeling sorry for you does no good and appeasing you has exhausted all common sense.  

In a civil discussion, parties can agree to disagree if they can't come to a meeting of minds on any particular subject, not relent into temper tantrums, jump up and down, get mad and say leave me alone.  Please know the next time you feel compelled to engage in a conversation, a right attitude goes a long way and humility even farther as we can see from Jesus example below.  He refused to answer and then marveled at one woman's faith and humility, therefore granted her request. 

"Leaving there, Jesus now withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Si′don. And, look! a Phoe·ni′cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”  When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!”  In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.”  She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.”  Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on.  (Matthew 15:21-28)

The agreement to disagree is a disgraceful defeat if it means surrendering the hope of agreement through deeper understanding. 

[JaniceM]

40 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

The agreement to disagree is a disgraceful defeat if it means surrendering the hope of agreement through deeper understanding. 

 

I'm not sure that makes sense in light of the verses below:

2 Tim 3:1  But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

Lit., “truceless.”

2 Tim 1:28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.

Or, “opposed to any agreement.”

[Shiwiii]

14 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

2 Tim 1:28

There is no 2 Tim 1:28, or a verse 28 in either books of Timothy. 

[JaniceM]

24 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

There is no 2 Tim 1:28, or a verse 28 in either books of Timothy. 

Thanks that should have been Romans 1:28-32

[JaniceM]

On 5/31/2016 at 10:02 AM, Witness said:

Hi Janice, I wasn’t expecting a response, but I appreciate your getting back to me.  This has become a dissertation. Certainly long, but full of vital scriptures pertaining to truth.  I do hope you have patience in reading it, as I know you will find similar statements to my past ones.  Your previous comments are in green.   

 

 

Hi Witness,

 

There seems to have been an explosion and I'm not sure if I hit a raw nerve or what.  I found many of your statements echoing a lot of arguments or websties I've encountered online, which are a bit hard to follow, somewhat contradictory, and quite disturbing to say the least.  Many of your concerns I had addressed in a response to your writing of 5/19, which it seems I may never have the opportunity to post, and at this point I'm not sure it would make a difference.  I hate to leave things hanging, but we will have to just call it quits, agree to disagree and move on.

 

 

Witness said:  

 

The result of this organization running itself has met havoc in child abuse court cases throughout the world, concerning one’s brother or sister.  God’s law cannot be practiced by a self-appointed elder body and anointed ones who have an absolute complete failure rate at prophesy. Deut 18:22

 

 

1)  What I've had to learn is that all persons and organizations are imperfect.  Goduses them anyway to accomplish his will and purpose despite their fallacies and misdeeds along the way.  We have only to look at ones in the Bible to find many examples whether it was the nation of Israel(idolaters, abusers and sacrificers of children), King David (murderer/adulterer), Cyrus the Great(anointed of God and ruler of pagans), Balaam(wayward prophet), friend or foe.  

 

It is confusing when you switch from supporting anointed ones or a priestly class and then denouncing the same you feel are lording it over.  However, I don't know specifically which ones you find egregious, whether it's ones of the governing body or a certain body  of elders, or all of them, or if you feel you are anointed by God chosen and capable.

 

There does seem to be some type of system in the first century whereby persons where chosen to serve in the congregations or they were organized to go on missionary tours.  I assume the heads of those congregations decided upon who would be good candidates:   

 

1 Tim 3:1 That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.

 

In regards to prophecy, Jesus did say many would prophesy in his name in the last days but many would not be rejected.  I don't think however that determination is based on misinterpretations or wrong misunderstanding of dates, as both Catholic and Protestant denominations are guilty of that.  Jesus said no one knows the day or hour except God, lest we make mountains out of a molehills.

 

 

 

 

Witness said:     

 

This is the thing, Janice, there is no reason to be ‘dragged’ back to any “church” or organization. You are looking at worshiping through an earthly presence. Col 3:1,2; 2 Cor 5:7  Relying solely on God and Christ is what worshiping in the spirit and the truth is all about, with no man intervention or under any physical canopy. 

 

 

2).  God's instructs his people to meet or congregate together.  "Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. 2 Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, 3 seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger." (Zephaniah 2:1-3)

 

(Hebrews 10:24, 25) And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

 

(Matthew 16:18) Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha′des will not overpower it.

 

Rev 3:7 “And to the angel of the congregation in Philadelphia write: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens, 8 ‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut—that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name.

 

(Acts 15:22) Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar′na·bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar′sab·bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers;

 

 

(No one was dragged to hear how they would burn forever in fire or beaten for extended periods of time if they didn't say an Easter speech.)

 

 

 

Witness said:    

 

What is greatly admired, worn and displayed in various forms?  Where are all people directed by your preaching work, but to the words on the blue emblem that now graces each kingdom hall?

 

 

3).  I do not see anything wrong with advertising or being proud of a tool or website that directs people to valuable information concerning a kingdom that will benefit all mankind.  People admired, prayed and bowed down to the temple on a daily basis.which was full of images.

 

Mark 13:1 As he was going out of the temple one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings!”

 

2 Chron 6:21 And you must listen to the entreaties of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place, that you yourself may hear from the place of your dwelling, from the heavens; and you must hear and forgive.

 

1 Kings 6:32 And the two doors were of oil-tree wood, and he carved upon them carvings of cherubs and palm-tree figures and the engravings of blossoms, and he overlaid them with gold; and he proceeded to beat the gold down upon the cherubs and the palm-tree figures. 33 And that was the way he made for the entrance of the temple, the doorposts of oil-tree wood, foursquare. 34 And the two doors were of juniper wood. The two leaves of the one door turned on pivots, and the two leaves of the other door turned on pivots. 35 And he carved cherubs and palm-tree figures and engravings of blossoms, and overlaid gold foil upon the representations.

 

 

Witness said:  

 

Thank you for the scriptures declaring your faith in preaching Jesus’s words.    As far as preaching from house to house, have you noticed Luke 10:4-8?  Preaching TRUTH can be done with God’s spirit as it works through an individual.  Zech 4:6  If we doubt this, we shorten the arm of God.  If we think MEN must organize it their way, there is no faith in what God can do.  John 12:38; Isa 52:10; Hos 7:13; Prov 14:12

 

 

4).  I understand more than most why it can be difficult to reach out publicly, however, Jesus didn't just wait for others to stumble across his path to preach to them.  He made a point to find the lost sheep.  Hence his commandments:

 

 

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come. 2 Then he began to say to them: “The harvest, indeed, is great, but the workers are few. Therefore beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. 3 Go forth. Look! I am sending YOU forth as lambs in among wolves

Luke 8:1 Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,

 

(1 Peter 2:21) In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.

 

 

 

Witness said:     

 

Are you equating the temple with the Watchtower organization. 

 

 

Should we listen to those anointed ones ones who speak from both sides of the mouth? No. James 4:8; Matt 23:25-28; Matt 7:17 Is this this how anointed ones are to teach others, through doctrines pointing to another failed prophesy over the history of many, and causing nothing but confusion?  This is by no means the correct pure good news that Christ preached. WT preaching is based on 1914, causing doublespeak to keep occurring. 2 Pet 3:3,4; 2 Thess 2:2  The teaching of “this generation” continues to revolve around 1914. (If you’re interested in the correct Greek translation for Matt 24:8, it is brought out in a comment I made on this forum under the question, “Has the 1000 years of Kingdom Rule started?”) 

 

Many who are leaving realize the obvious lack of holy spirit among the anointed leaders. 2 Tim 3:8 The world still lies in turmoil as the ‘good news’ of the kingdom as established in 1914 and preached by the organization continues.  What confusion, which is the Greek meaning for “Babylon”. In 2015, 260,273 were baptized, 156,260+ left or faded from the organization, and not all are accounted for.  Was this the case when God directed his ancient people?  When numbers dropped it was because of their destruction through disobedience to God’s laws and worshiping “the work of their own hands”. Acts 7:41; Exod 32:35,27,28; 1 Cor 10:6,7-11  Haughtiness, arrogance, rebellion and a prideful will caused them to be destroyed. 

 

5).  In my reference to Hannah, I was not equating the temple with the Watchtower.  We are clearly not seeing eye to eye in this regard and this is very worrisome.  My intention was to point out the complaining attitudes of persons over the faults and fallacies of others whereas Hannah did not focus on how could a priest or a rival wife(daughter of Jacob/Israel) humiliate her.  Her focus was on serving God and doing the best she could within the framework and worship of God and the temple arrangement.

 I did not become a Witness based on a date in time.  Maybe others in the past became disillusioned in this regard and fell away because of it or felt they had sacrificed promising futures or gave up a comfortable lifestyle or beneficial employment.  However, the scriptures advise:  "having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things." (1 Timothy 6:8)  We could all lose everything in an instant.  

As to so-called prophecies Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour.  Therefore, whatever religious body makes a claim as such, we cannot use their reasoning as totally infallible or that they could not be mistaken.  

God's strength is also not in numbers.  At one time the prophet Elijah thought he was the only one left that remained faithful to God but he was told there was still 7,000 left that had not bowed down to Baal. 

1 Kings 19:14 " . . . your prophets they have killed with the sword, so that I only am left; and they begin looking for my soul to take it away.” . . . 18 And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Only a few would will survive or find the cramped road to life, as Jesus said.  Many seeds are planted but will not take root or grow to maturity.  This can be expected.

 

Witness said:     

We have the composite false prophet – compare Rev 19:20 and Rev 13:11-16; 1 Cor 6:15-17

 

It performs signs on behalf of the first beast (Gentile Wild Beast) to deceive those of the earth that had received the mark of the first beast and worshiped its “image” ( We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.)

 

7).  I have not seen any worshipful gestures, bowing down  or praying to an image.  Not every object or act can be considered worship of someone or something other than God, as we can see from the verses below:  

 

(Genesis 33:20) After that he set up there an altar and called it God the God of Israel.

(John 3:14, 15) And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

 

Witness said:     

 

Where else do we find God’s chosen “Temple” but in the organization?  Who are JWs expected to obey if not the elder body, a spiritual Gentile Body and a counterfeit to the Body of Christ which is made up of his chosen spiritual “Jews”.  Who has the power to judge God’s Chosen ones?

 

 

8).  I'm not fully understanding your question.  Most religious organizations have head ones that oversee their flock or church/congregation members and/or responsibilities.  There were directions, instructions, judging in the first century congregations which everyone was expected to abide by.  God has also appointed Jesus as judge during the last days and during the time of the kingdom.  Verses below:

 

1 Cor 15:12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

 

 

John 5: 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,

 

 

 

 

Witness said:       

 

In this case, Holy Spirit came directly from God, whereas an elder body is appointed based on “scriptural qualifications” by other men.  Are your local elders part of the anointed Temple of God? 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:20-22

 

 

9).  Some elders may be anointed, some may not.  I've known a few.  With just over 8,000(?) professing to be anointed, and over 155,000(?) congregations, there is probably not enough anointed to go around.  You would have to specific who you consider to be the anointed Temple of God if you know any to be or if you feel you yourself are as I don't know who you now consider to be the anointed Temple of God.  During the first century, ones were chosen to take the lead as in the scripture below:

 

 

(Titus 1:5-9) For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7 For an overseer must be free from accusation as God’s steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9 holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict.

 

 

 

 

Witness said:    

 

Upon leaving, I have found where the “eagles have gathered” and have been richly blessed. Luke 17:37; Rev 12:6  I hope all JWs do also, before it’s too late. Perhaps, if you are willing to consider it, this article will give more insight.

 

 

10).  I did take a glance and short read at the article or website you posted.  However, I remain. 

 

Lastly, one of your main points of contention is salvation as regards the organization which as I mentioned was covered in a previous writing which I was never able to post because you started another response at about the same time.  Therefore, I will just scrape it as it will start another marathon of disagreements, which I don't think I'll have the time to engage in reading and responding taking up over half my days.

 

I will await your response, and read as soon as possible.  However, at this point I feel we are going around in circles, and not coming to a meeting of minds.  There is also a huge conflict of interest involved, so this will be my last rebuttal.  I do hope you find your way back and forgiveness.

[JaniceM]

On 5/31/2016 at 10:02 AM, Witness said:

* Corrections

Hi Witness,

 

There seems to have been an explosion and I'm not sure if I hit a raw nerve or what.  I found many of your statements echoing a lot of arguments or *websites I've encountered online, which are a bit hard to follow, somewhat contradictory, and quite disturbing to say the least.  Many of your concerns I had addressed in a response to your writing of 5/19, which it seems I may never have the opportunity to post, and at this point I'm not sure it would make a difference.  I hate to leave things hanging, but we will have to just call it quits, agree to disagree and move on.

 

 

Witness said:  

 

The result of this organization running itself has met havoc in child abuse court cases throughout the world, concerning one’s brother or sister.  God’s law cannot be practiced by a self-appointed elder body and anointed ones who have an absolute complete failure rate at prophesy. Deut 18:22

 

 

1)  What I've had to learn is that all persons and organizations are imperfect.  *God uses them anyway to accomplish his will and purpose despite their fallacies and misdeeds along the way.  We have only to look at ones in the Bible to find many examples whether it was the nation of Israel(idolaters, abusers and sacrificers of children), King David (murderer/adulterer), Cyrus the Great(anointed of God and ruler of pagans), Balaam(wayward prophet), friend or foe.  

 

It is confusing when you switch from supporting anointed ones or a priestly class and then denouncing the same you feel are lording it over.  However, I don't know specifically which ones you find egregious, whether it's ones of the governing body or a certain body  of elders, or all of them, or if you feel you are anointed by God chosen and capable.

 

There does seem to be some type of system in the first century whereby persons where chosen to serve in the congregations or they were organized to go on missionary tours.  I assume the heads of those congregations decided upon who would be good candidates:   

 

1 Tim 3:1 That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.

 

In regards to prophecy, Jesus did say many would prophesy in his name in the last days but many *would be rejected.  I don't think however that determination is based on misinterpretations or wrong misunderstanding of dates, as both Catholic and Protestant denominations are guilty of that.  Jesus said no one knows the day or hour except God, lest we make mountains out of a molehills.

 

 

 

 

Witness said:     

 

This is the thing, Janice, there is no reason to be ‘dragged’ back to any “church” or organization. You are looking at worshiping through an earthly presence. Col 3:1,2; 2 Cor 5:7  Relying solely on God and Christ is what worshiping in the spirit and the truth is all about, with no man intervention or under any physical canopy. 

 

 

2).  God's instructs his people to meet or congregate together.  "Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. 2 Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, 3 seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger." (Zephaniah 2:1-3)

 

(Hebrews 10:24, 25) And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

 

(Matthew 16:18) Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha′des will not overpower it.

 

Rev 3:7 “And to the angel of the congregation in Philadelphia write: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens, 8 ‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut—that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name.

 

(Acts 15:22) Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar′na·bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar′sab·bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers;

 

 

(No one was dragged to hear how they would burn forever in fire or beaten for extended periods of time if they didn't say an Easter speech.)

 

 

 

Witness said:    

 

What is greatly admired, worn and displayed in various forms?  Where are all people directed by your preaching work, but to the words on the blue emblem that now graces each kingdom hall?

 

 

3).  I do not see anything wrong with advertising or being proud of a tool or website that directs people to valuable information concerning a kingdom that will benefit all mankind.  People admired, prayed and bowed down to the temple on a daily basis.which was full of images.

 

Mark 13:1 As he was going out of the temple one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings!”

 

2 Chron 6:21 And you must listen to the entreaties of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place, that you yourself may hear from the place of your dwelling, from the heavens; and you must hear and forgive.

 

1 Kings 6:32 And the two doors were of oil-tree wood, and he carved upon them carvings of cherubs and palm-tree figures and the engravings of blossoms, and he overlaid them with gold; and he proceeded to beat the gold down upon the cherubs and the palm-tree figures. 33 And that was the way he made for the entrance of the temple, the doorposts of oil-tree wood, foursquare. 34 And the two doors were of juniper wood. The two leaves of the one door turned on pivots, and the two leaves of the other door turned on pivots. 35 And he carved cherubs and palm-tree figures and engravings of blossoms, and overlaid gold foil upon the representations.

 

 

Witness said:  

 

Thank you for the scriptures declaring your faith in preaching Jesus’s words.    As far as preaching from house to house, have you noticed Luke 10:4-8?  Preaching TRUTH can be done with God’s spirit as it works through an individual.  Zech 4:6  If we doubt this, we shorten the arm of God.  If we think MEN must organize it their way, there is no faith in what God can do.  John 12:38; Isa 52:10; Hos 7:13; Prov 14:12

 

 

4).  I understand more than most why it can be difficult to reach out publicly, however, Jesus didn't just wait for others to stumble across his path to preach to them.  He made a point to find the lost sheep.  Hence his commandments:

 

 

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come. 2 Then he began to say to them: “The harvest, indeed, is great, but the workers are few. Therefore beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. 3 Go forth. Look! I am sending YOU forth as lambs in among wolves

Luke 8:1 Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,

 

(1 Peter 2:21) In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.

 

 

 

Witness said:     

 

Are you equating the temple with the Watchtower organization. 

 

 

Should we listen to those anointed ones ones who speak from both sides of the mouth? No. James 4:8; Matt 23:25-28; Matt 7:17 Is this this how anointed ones are to teach others, through doctrines pointing to another failed prophesy over the history of many, and causing nothing but confusion?  This is by no means the correct pure good news that Christ preached. WT preaching is based on 1914, causing doublespeak to keep occurring. 2 Pet 3:3,4; 2 Thess 2:2  The teaching of “this generation” continues to revolve around 1914. (If you’re interested in the correct Greek translation for Matt 24:8, it is brought out in a comment I made on this forum under the question, “Has the 1000 years of Kingdom Rule started?”) 

 

Many who are leaving realize the obvious lack of holy spirit among the anointed leaders. 2 Tim 3:8 The world still lies in turmoil as the ‘good news’ of the kingdom as established in 1914 and preached by the organization continues.  What confusion, which is the Greek meaning for “Babylon”. In 2015, 260,273 were baptized, 156,260+ left or faded from the organization, and not all are accounted for.  Was this the case when God directed his ancient people?  When numbers dropped it was because of their destruction through disobedience to God’s laws and worshiping “the work of their own hands”. Acts 7:41; Exod 32:35,27,28; 1 Cor 10:6,7-11  Haughtiness, arrogance, rebellion and a prideful will caused them to be destroyed. 

 

5).  In my reference to Hannah, I was not equating the temple with the Watchtower.  We are clearly not seeing eye to eye in this regard and this is *becoming very worrisome.  My intention was to point out the complaining attitudes of persons over the faults and fallacies of others whereas Hannah did not focus on how could a priest or a rival wife(daughter of Jacob/Israel) humiliate her.  Her focus was on serving God and doing the best she could *to worship God within the framework at the time centered around the temple arrangement.

 I did not become a Witness based on a date in time.  Maybe others in the past became disillusioned in this regard and fell away because of it or felt they had sacrificed promising futures or gave up a comfortable lifestyle or beneficial employment.  However, the scriptures advise:  "having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things." (1 Timothy 6:8)  We could all lose everything in an instant.  

As to so-called prophecies, Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour.  Therefore, whatever religious body makes a claim as such, we cannot use *such a reasoning as totally infallible or that they could not be mistaken.  

God's strength is also not in numbers.  At one time the prophet Elijah thought he was the only one left that remained faithful to God but he was told there was still 7,000 left that had not bowed down to Baal. 

1 Kings 19:14 " . . . your prophets they have killed with the sword, so that I only am left; and they begin looking for my soul to take it away.” . . . 18 And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Only a few would will survive or find the cramped road to life, as Jesus said.  Many seeds are planted but will not take root or grow to maturity.  This can be expected.

 

Witness said:     

We have the composite false prophet – compare Rev 19:20 and Rev 13:11-16; 1 Cor 6:15-17

 

It performs signs on behalf of the first beast (Gentile Wild Beast) to deceive those of the earth that had received the mark of the first beast and worshiped its “image” ( We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.)

 

7).  I have not seen any worshipful gestures, bowing down  or praying to an image.  Not every object or act can be considered worship of someone or something other than God, as we can see from the verses below:  

 

(Genesis 33:20) After that he set up there an altar and called it God the God of Israel.

(John 3:14, 15) And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

 

Witness said:     

 

Where else do we find God’s chosen “Temple” but in the organization?  Who are JWs expected to obey if not the elder body, a spiritual Gentile Body and a counterfeit to the Body of Christ which is made up of his chosen spiritual “Jews”.  Who has the power to judge God’s Chosen ones?

 

 

8).  I'm not fully understanding your question.  Most religious organizations have head ones that oversee their flock or church/congregation members and/or responsibilities.  There were directions, instructions, judging in the first century congregations which everyone was expected to abide by.  God has also appointed Jesus as judge during the last days and during the time of the kingdom.  Verses below:

 

1 Cor 15:12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

 

 

John 5: 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,

 

 

 

 

Witness said:       

 

In this case, Holy Spirit came directly from God, whereas an elder body is appointed based on “scriptural qualifications” by other men.  Are your local elders part of the anointed Temple of God? 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:20-22

 

 

9).  Some elders may be anointed, some may not.  I've known a few.  With just over 8,000(?) professing to be anointed, and over 155,000(?) congregations, there is probably not enough anointed to go around.  You would have to specific who you consider to be the anointed Temple of God if you know any to be or if you feel you yourself are as I don't know who you now consider to be the anointed Temple of God.  During the first century, ones were chosen to take the lead as in the scripture below:

 

 

(Titus 1:5-9) For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7 For an overseer must be free from accusation as God’s steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9 holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict.

 

 

 

 

Witness said:    

 

Upon leaving, I have found where the “eagles have gathered” and have been richly blessed. Luke 17:37; Rev 12:6  I hope all JWs do also, before it’s too late. Perhaps, if you are willing to consider it, this article will give more insight.

 

 

10).  I did take a glance and short read at the article or website you posted.  However, I remain. 

 

Lastly, one of your main points of contention is salvation as regards the organization which as I mentioned was covered in a previous writing which I was never able to post because you started another response at about the same time.  Therefore, I will just scrape it as it will start another marathon of disagreements, which I don't think I'll have the time to engage in reading and responding taking up over half my days.

 

I will await your response, and read as soon as possible.  However, at this point I feel we are going around in circles, and not coming to a meeting of minds.  There is also a huge conflict of interest involved, so this will be my last rebuttal.  I do hope you find your way back and forgiveness.

[Witness]

On 6/7/2016 at 6:12 PM, JaniceM said:

 

Hi Witness,

 

There seems to have been an explosion and I'm not sure if I hit a raw nerve or what.  I found many of your statements echoing a lot of arguments or websties I've encountered online, which are a bit hard to follow, somewhat contradictory, and quite disturbing to say the least.  Many of your concerns I had addressed in a response to your writing of 5/19, which it seems I may never have the opportunity to post, and at this point I'm not sure it would make a difference.  I hate to leave things hanging, but we will have to just call it quits, agree to disagree and move on.

 

 

 

Hi Janice,

It is the Watchtower that has hit a raw nerve, misleading thousands in impure teachings.  If you find my own statements are contradictory, please point them out as I would appreciate correcting them, if what I’ve written here doesn’t cover them. 

You are welcome to post your writing of 5/19 still if you feel the need.   You must realize I am not stopping you from doing so.  Yes, perhaps moving on is best, although I will always feel the need to defend the Father and Christ in truth.

If my comments “echo” many of those on the internet, keep in mind many do have the literal “facts” about the organization and its hypocritical history.  Combine that with prophesy being fulfilled it could and should lead one onto the path of truth.

So, in defense of this truth I will respond to many of your comments.

It is confusing when you switch from supporting anointed ones or a priestly class and then denouncing the same you feel are lording it over.  However, I don't know specifically which ones you find egregious, whether it's ones of the governing body or a certain body of elders, or all of them, or if you feel you are anointed by God chosen and capable.

The specific ones are those of the GB as well as those who support the role in obedience.  There are two promised covenants that play out in the end, one of life in Christ, one of death in Satan.  Anointed ones can fall away from Christ as I have earlier stated.  Jerusalem Above is life, while Babylon the Great is death. 

The testing of each one is allowed by God. 2 Cor 11:3,13,14,4,20 If they fail this testing, (Matt 4:8,9; Rev 13:4,1,2;17:3; Isa 31:1; Rev 9:7,9; 19:18-20; 17:14) they become Satan’s seed. Ezek 16:23-25; Jer 2:20,19,21; Hos 13:6; Rev 13:11,14,15,8,7

“See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.”  Heb 3:12

The “lording it over” other anointed ones is through the granting of it by the GB, enforced by an unanointed elder body.  It is not only the “operation of error”, “man of lawlessness”, but the two Beasts of Revelation working in unison – a dual power,  to destroy Christ’s seed – accomplished through the immoral covenant accepted, the covenant in death. 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:14,15; 19:20; Dan 11:36,37; 8:11,24; Mark 13:14

By means of the final beast pictured by fallen anointed ones, Satan wars with the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed.  Rev 12:17,15; Dan 11:10,33; Rev 13:10; Col 2:8.  It is against the “camp of the Holy Ones” captive under the expected obedience to an elder body, subsequently also to a fallen anointed GB.  Rev 20:7-9; 11:5; Jer 23:29; 5:14; Isa 24:6

This is a lot to throw at you, but there is nowhere else to look for fulfillment of prophesy but among God’s own anointed people. Two seeds at enmity with one another.  Gen 3:15

 

In regards to prophecy, Jesus did say many would prophesy in his name in the last days but many would not be rejected.  

To have disregard for those whose lives were ruined by following such cold and calculated failed dates is misleading God’s sheep.  Does he care?  Yes, much more than the Watchtower does.

“I did not send the prophets,
    yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
    yet they prophesied.
 But if they had stood in my council,
    then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
    and from the evil of their deeds.”  Jer 23:21,22

The scriptures you bring out in rebuttal to my stating that no organization is needed, are concerning the Body of Christ and congregations.  Nothing is said in the scripture that there was an organized and set governing body in Jerusalem or organization.  This is a fabrication of the WT.   Paul and the apostles worked through the blessing and guidance of holy spirit.   Acts 18:5; 19:5; 20

 No group of men told them where to go and what to do unless by a rare unanimous agreement.  Their goal was to work in harmony as a Body in Christ along with all believers.  Centralized hierarchical authority developed after the apostles were gone and to the detriment of the sheep.  This is where Satan fully employed his tactic of prideful lording over another to deviate anointed ones from the Body of Christ.  It is also the establishment of the early Catholic Church.  Have you had a chance to compare the hierarchy found in both the Catholic church and the organization – on paper?

 During a court case, a Watchtower lawyer made the comment, “We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church.  And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish”

Now tell me, doesn’t it seem that Satan surely knows what he’s doing with his use of similar schemes?  His success with the Catholic Church spans centuries, but in this case his ploy against the last of the anointed ones will be short-lived.

In reference to idol worship, God explained in detail how the temple was to be built. You say, “ People admired, prayed and bowed down to the temple on a daily basis.which was full of images.”

Those particular images you speak of did not detract from salvation acknowledged coming from God.  The organization, on the other hand, IS salvation to JWs – a confusing mix of salvation stemming from “wood and stone” as well as from God.  This is idolatry, not whether the early temple was decorated in pomegranates. 

"People and ORGANIZATIONS making up the antichrist still OPPOSE Christ and his teachings. They deliberately spread lies and deceptions with the intent of CONFUSING THE IDENTITY of the Father, Jehovah God, and of His Son, Jesus Christ. WT 6/2015 "Who is the Anti-Christ?"

I believe I must have brought out 1 Kings 18 somewhere in this string of conversations, where God’s people “limped on two different opinions”, sacrificing to the work of one’s hands, as well as to God.  The similarity of worship within the organization is uncanny.  By not accepting the Temple in God’s chosen ones, where the early temple was a copy and a shadow of this heavenly one, the organization ridicules God and his arrangement in Christ.  Heb Chapter 8

Again, you mention Matt 28:19 as if the organization is following that command in righteousness.  This couldn’t be farther from truth.  It commands that to earn salvation one must identify itself - bear the mark - of an organization.  This is not observing Christ’s commandments.  Rev 19:20

If you were asked by an elder if you uphold 1914, what would you say?  If you did not become a Witness based upon a timeline then you must not support the GB and their teaching.  

God’s strength is not in numbers, but in Holy Spirit.  Remember Gideon and his chosen 300 men, how the number diminished from 32,000 to a mere handful?  This was to clarify in the minds of Israelites how God works.  It was to instill in them his exceeding power to do his will based on his way and not man’s.  Isa 46:9 

Over the time period that God continually disciplined his people how many died for worshiping idols?  We know it was in the hundreds of thousands – wasn't it a thousand alone for worshiping the golden calf made by Aaron?  And THAT account alone should bring wide eyes to the sheep “worshiping and bowing down” symbolically to an organization professed as representing salvation in the same way that the calf became the path of salvation. 

Only a few would will survive or find the cramped road to life, as Jesus said.  Many seeds are planted but will not take root or grow to maturity.  This can be expected.

Yes, so few of the anointed remnant are to come out of captivity to the Beast, refined and purified, that God says of these symbolic trees,

The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land
    the Lord will destroy, both soul and body,
    and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
 The remnant of the trees of his forest will be so few
    that a child can write them down.  Isa 10:18,19

 I'm not fully understanding your question.  Most religious organizations have head ones that oversee their flock or church/congregation members and/or responsibilities.  

God and Christ do not expect an anointed Body to obey elders that are not anointed.  You also are stuck on man’s“organization” built to thrive in Satan’s world.  Anointed who remain in Christ have truth written on their hearts, which I have mentioned previously.  Heb 10:16  Holy Spirit would work for the benefit of all if the Body was unified in the manner Christ outlines.  Eph 4:4  But this whole picture of the organization’s denial of the Body of Christ is one of prophesy as I had mentioned earlier. 

Revelation speaks of “two witnesses” a symbolic term alluding to the remnant escaping captivity in the organization who will preach through the power of Holy Spirit – not through any manmade organization.  Rev 11:1-4; Zech 4:11-14  Surely I have brought this out earlier.  Their message is in the same vein as Elijah and Moses, leading the people into righteousness and refinement with Christ directing.  Do you see?  How amazing it is to think that God can accomplish such a feat as to use mere men to proclaim the iniquities of his people; all without the pomp and circumstance of an organization.  Sarcasm aside, because the organization preaches it can’t be done any other way, it shows how dependent it is on its own “mountainlike” power.

 ^“And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”  Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.  Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!’”  Zech 4:4-7

You mentioned that God has appointed Jesus to judge using 1 Cor 15:12.  May I ask then, why would an elder body have the ability to judge another’s spiritual standing before God?  John 5:22

An identical scenario is given in Acts 15

“But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1

The WT states, "To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

“But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”  Acts 15:5

These men refused to accept the new salvation in Christ extended to the Gentiles.  Today, the WT is still stuck in a Pharisee-like mode refusing to accept this same salvation possible only through Christ.

“Remember not the former things,
    nor consider the things of old.
 Behold, I am doing a new thing;
    now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
I will make a way in the wilderness
    and rivers in the desert.  Isa 43:18,19

With the refusal to accept salvation coming to the Gentiles, Peter stood up and asked,

^“Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?  But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

A self-proposed faithful and discreet slave endorses a yoke to be placed on the anointed ones since they are blind in seeing the Temple of God in Christ as God’s “new way”. 

And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. ¹³ After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. ¹⁴ Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. ¹⁵ And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

¹⁶ “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
     and I will restore it,
¹⁷ that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
    and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
     says the Lord, who makes these things ¹⁸ known from of old.’  Acts 15;12-17

You support an organization that destroys God’s Temple arrangement where it presently lays in ruins. The remnant to come out to Christ’s call, are they who will then symbolically be called by God’s name.  Rom 9:27; Micah 7:18; Rev 7:14; Rev 3:12; Rev 18:4-8

Your last words were, “I do hope you find your way back and forgiveness.” 

I doubt that you will get back to me on this, but how is this comment based on scripture? Truly, it cements my understanding that you also feel an organization can bring one to salvation, even if you do not support the fluctuating timeline it is based on.  If I worship the Father and uphold his Son in truth, where is forgiveness needed for doing this?

The Last Harlot and Her Beast:  http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/12/here-is-earlier-post-with-updates.html

 

 

 

[JaniceM]

16 hours ago, Witness said:

Hi Janice,

It is the Watchtower that has hit a raw nerve, misleading thousands in impure teachings.  If you find my own statements are contradictory, please point them out as I would appreciate correcting them, if what I’ve written here doesn’t cover them. 

Hi Witness, 

 

I was hoping to get off this merry-go-round as we continue to go around in circles.  At some point, we do need to agree to disagree especially when nerves are on edge and give rise to anger and nasty overtones.  It may be that we are not in the same race or on a marathon that never ends.

 

I believe it was Apostle Paul that encouraged the congregation in Corinth:  "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. (1 Cor 1:10)

 

 

With over 2 billion members among Christendom, 30-50,000 different sects and denominations, we can clearly see the impact and harm done when brothers cannot come to a meeting of minds.  The truth can either divide or unite.  Jesus prayed:  “. . . Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are."  (John 17:11)

 

 

 

 

 

Witness Wrote:

 

It is the Watchtower that has hit a raw nerve, misleading thousands in impure teachings.  If you find my own statements are contradictory, please point them out as I would appreciate correcting them, if what I’ve written here doesn’t cover them. 

 

You are welcome to post your writing of 5/19 still if you feel the need.   You must realize I am not stopping you from doing so.  Yes, perhaps moving on is best, although I will always feel the need to defend the Father and Christ in truth.

 

If my comments “echo” many of those on the internet, keep in mind many do have the literal “facts” about the organization and its hypocritical history.  Combine that with prophesy being fulfilled it could and should lead one onto the path of truth.

The specific ones are those of the GB as well as those who support the role in obedience.  There are two promised covenants that play out in the end, one of life in Christ, one of death in Satan.  Anointed ones can fall away from Christ as I have earlier stated.  Jerusalem Above is life, while Babylon the Great is death. 

The “lording it over” other anointed ones is through the granting of it by the GB, enforced by an unanointed elder body. 

 

By not accepting the Temple in God’s chosen ones, where the early temple was a copy and a shadow of this heavenly one, the organization ridicules God and his arrangement in Christ.  Heb Chapter 8

Yes, so few of the anointed remnant are to come out of captivity to the Beast, refined and purified, that God says of these symbolic trees,

God and Christ do not expect an anointed Body to obey elders that are not anointed. 

A self-proposed faithful and discreet slave endorses a yoke to be placed on the anointed ones since they are blind in seeing the Temple of God in Christ as God’s “new way”. 

 

1).  Above is a collection of your comments that give rise to more questions than answers, and although I think it is insightful to address certain scriptures or translations you questioned in your post of 05/19, I will scrap that response until another time, if and when it might become more beneficial, and right now I can't afford not to get back to life.  

The contradiction in your assertions concern a temple of anointed ones, or persons that make up a spiritual house of God?  At the same time, you deny or denounce any type of organizing of such ones to gather or congregate in carrying out the directives of Christ because you say there was no organization of God's people?  This is contradictory and confusing.  You most certainly appear to be against any arrangement of elders to oversee any gathering of people or congregations to tell anybody what to do.  Instead of being herded as sheep, they wander about butting heads like goats.

You seem to imply the GB and elders are counterfeit, maybe once anointed, fallen away and lording it over defenseless other anointed.  You fail to say exactly who you think are anointed or need to be in charge, or how God will deliver them to their rightful positions; or if they could be among Christendom individually like a fly on the wall in some fly by night operation with a mission to track down as many JW's as possible to save them by exposing impure teachings.  Yet, impure teachings, pagan cult rituals have infiltrated all of Christendom, expressly in the satanic celebrations of Halloween, Christmas and Easter, etc. 

The "literal "facts"" are, Christendom is responsible for the killing of millions of people including their own parishioners and continue to support war and carpet bombing of nations of people.  " . . . No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Rev 18:23-24)

These spiritistc practices are not being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses.  They have not salughtered those on earth or encouraging the masses to succumb to traveling merchants or materilistic goods.

What is the cost of the collateral damage from such facts and impure teachings among Christendom?  Jesus says, "I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." (Matt 7:22, 23)

Despite Christendom "and its hypocritical history", warmongering, and "impure teachings", they have been forgiven by their followers and those that "echo” the ills of the Watchtower, and "many of those on the internet". 

Jesus asked:  'Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?'

 

You words:  "so few of the anointed remnant are to come out of captivity to the Beast"

Jesus told Peter, those anointed, to 'feed my sheep'.  If what you say is true the few anointed are being lorded over, they are not anointed but lazy, failing to properly feed the sheep, weak and fearful of men.  God's spirit is not a spirit of cowardice but strength and courage.  "For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons".  "There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love."  " . . . Take courage! I have conquered the world.” (Rom 8:15; 1 John 4:18; John 16:33)

 

 

Witness said:

 

In regards to prophecy, Jesus did say many would prophesy in his name in the last days but many would not be rejected.  

 

To have disregard for those whose lives were ruined by following such cold and calculated failed dates is misleading God’s sheep.  Does he care?  Yes, much more than the Watchtower does.

 

2).  I had reposted my previous response with corrections.  "The revision should have been:  In regards to prophecy, Jesus did say many would prophesy in his name in the last days, but many WOULD BE rejected."  This overwhelmingly would include most denominations of Christendom as compared to the few in number among JW's.  Therefore, we should not be overly surprised that some may fall away.  Jesus expressly stated, no one knows the day or hour except his Father.  If God is concerned about persons leaving or losing faith from miscalculations of any perceived date in time, then both Catholic and Protestant denominations will not escape his judgment in that regard.  Many have lost faith or remained steadfast whether there were issues regarding leadership, marriage, divorce, abortion, contraception, or homosexuality, etc.  Whereas others strongly consider miscalculations or end of world predictions a major infraction, for a certain, a major infraction would be to deliberately mislead ones to practice pagan celebrations, or kill in the name of Christianity for the sake of God and country.

 

 

Witness said:

The scriptures you bring out in rebuttal to my stating that no organization is needed, are concerning the Body of Christ and congregations.  Nothing is said in the scripture that there was an organized and set governing body in Jerusalem or organization.  This is a fabrication of the WT.   Paul and the apostles worked through the blessing and guidance of holy spirit.   Acts 18:5; 19:5; 20

 

 No group of men told them where to go and what to do unless by a rare unanimous agreement.  Their goal was to work in harmony as a Body in Christ along with all believers.  Centralized hierarchical authority developed after the apostles were gone and to the detriment of the sheep.  This is where Satan fully employed his tactic of prideful lording over another to deviate anointed ones from the Body of Christ.  It is also the establishment of the early Catholic Church.  Have you had a chance to compare the hierarchy found in both the Catholic church and the organization – on paper?

 

 During a court case, a Watchtower lawyer made the comment, “We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church.  And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish”

 

Now tell me, doesn’t it seem that Satan surely knows what he’s doing with his use of similar schemes?  His success with the Catholic Church spans centuries, but in this case his ploy against the last of the anointed ones will be short-lived.

 

3).  It appears there's at least one other organization you despise as a operative of Satan.

Words such as "organization", or "governing body" seem to be a big bone of contention when it should not.  These are just descriptive terms.  People or congregations were organized and brothers and sisters were told explicitly what to do by a few of the apostles and older men appointed in the congregations. 

1 Cor 14:40  English Standard Version - But all things should be done decently and in order.

Mark 6:39-41 ESV - Then he commanded them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties. And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven and said a blessing and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the people. And he divided the two fish among them all.

1 Cor 14:26 "What is to be done, then, brothers? When YOU come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for upbuilding. 27 And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns; and let someone translate. 28 But if there be no translator, let him keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God. 29 Further, let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern the meaning. 30 But if there is a revelation to another one while sitting there, let the first one keep silent. 31 For YOU can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all be encouraged. 32 And [gifts of] the spirit of the prophets are to be controlled by the prophets. 33 For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the holy ones, 34 let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. 35 If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation."

 

Many will look at these words or scriptures above as lording it over, however, that tone of reasoning should not be undertaken.

 

It is reasonable to think the first or head of the congregations got its start in Jerusalem or the vicinity of Jesus' death and resurrection. 

(Acts 16:4, 5) Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem.

However, this is not a point I wish to argue about continuously..

 

 

Witness said:

You mentioned that God has appointed Jesus to judge using 1 Cor 15:12.  May I ask then, why would an elder body have the ability to judge another’s spiritual standing before God?  John 5:22

 

4)  There were ones appointed as judges in the congregation to set matters straight between judges or whereby certain ones were to be removed from among them.  However, only Jesus would be the one to judge someone's eternal salvation.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

1 Cor 6: 4 If, then, YOU do have matters of this life to be tried, is it the men looked down upon in the congregation that YOU put in as judges? 5 I am speaking to move YOU to shame. Is it true that there is not one wise man among YOU that will be able to judge between his brothers 

 

 

 

Witness said:

Those particular images you speak of did not detract from salvation acknowledged coming from God.  The organization, on the other hand, IS salvation to JWs – a confusing mix of salvation stemming from “wood and stone” as well as from God.  This is idolatry, not whether the early temple was decorated in pomegranates. 

 

5).  I'm not understanding your above analogy in reference to your claim, ones were worshipping an icon or initials - something of that nature.  Bowing toward a temple full with carefully crafted icons, decorations, images of angels/cherubs or "pomegranates", were not considered idolatry.  Calling an altar, Jehovah, or looking to a serpent/icon for salvation from certain death was also not considered idolatry.  Therefore two (2) initials of a website designed for dispensing information about God's kingdom can hardly be considered worship or bowing down to an idol. 

 

(Genesis 33:20) "After that he set up there an altar and called it God the God of Israel."

2 Chronicle 3:10 "Then he made in the house of the Most Holy two cherubs in the workmanship of images, and overlaid them with gold. 11 As for the wings of the cherubs, their length was twenty cubits, the one wing of five cubits reaching to the wall of the house, and the other wing of five cubits reaching to the wing of the other cherub. 12 And the wing of the one cherub of five cubits was reaching to the wall of the house, and the other wing of five cubits was in contact with the wing of the other cherub. 13 The wings of these cherubs were spread out twenty cubits; and they were standing upon their feet with their faces inward."

(1 Kings 6:29) And all the walls of the house round about he carved with engraved carvings of cherubs and palm-tree figures and engravings of blossoms, inside and outside;

 

Many have looked to religion for answers about God/gods or truth.  I have mentioned I am not unfamiliar with family members or churches/denominations that claim they are the right path to God, whether I attended First Baptist Church, Second Baptist Church, or New Jerusalem Methodist Church, etc.  If anyone is looking for a sympathetic ear in this instance, they won't find one here.  I am unmoved by any complaint, temper tantrum or dissatisfaction with JW's claiming the same. 

 

 

 

Witness said:

If you were asked by an elder if you uphold 1914, what would you say?  If you did not become a Witness based upon a timeline then you must not support the GB and their teaching. 

 

6).  I don't recall ever being asked this particular question directly or before baptism, although I can't say for sure.  There are basic tenants of faith I agree are important, although I have not agreed with every religious body as regards all things.  I am not afraid to say I don't totally agree with a particular teaching or I don't know, I'm not sure, I don't understand, or ask for further explanation.  We were told not to think that even the elders always agree on matters.  As far as going on the war path against any priest, pastor, pope,  church, elders, religious body or denomination, I have chosen simply not to return. 

Excuse me if this is redundant.  My answers will remain as is.

 

Witness said:

God’s strength is not in numbers, but in Holy Spirit.  Remember Gideon and his chosen 300 men, how the number diminished from 32,000 to a mere handful?  This was to clarify in the minds of Israelites how God works.  It was to instill in them his exceeding power to do his will based on his way and not man’s.  Isa 46:9 

Over the time period that God continually disciplined his people how many died for worshiping idols?  We know it was in the hundreds of thousands – wasn't it a thousand alone for worshiping the golden calf made by Aaron?  And THAT account alone should bring wide eyes to the sheep “worshiping and bowing down” symbolically to an organization professed as representing salvation in the same way that the calf became the path of salvation.

 

7).  I am unmoved by any unfounded allegations of "“worshiping and bowing down” symbolically to an organization" or otherwise, even if Aaron, the anointed priest of God himself encouraged it.

Whether it was in an ark, saved amidst the destruction of Jerusalem, or the time of the end, I think we can agree that only a few are in line for salvation on the cramped road to life, and few are the ones finding it.

Jesus "said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”  The kingdom message is also preached by a few but to God they produce great results.  (Matthew 9:37-38)

 

 

 

Witness said:

These men refused to accept the new salvation in Christ extended to the Gentiles.  Today, the WT is still stuck in a Pharisee-like mode refusing to accept this same salvation possible only through Christ.

 

8).  I found your statement above to be untrue:

(Watchtower 1997)

That “one hope” hinges upon putting faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible appropriately states: “There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (Acts 4:12) No other “holy book” presents Jesus as the central figure in the outworking of God’s purposes. Only if we accept the Bible as the Word of God can it teach us about Jehovah God’s loving provision for salvation.—John 17:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

 

 

Witness said:

You support an organization that destroys God’s Temple arrangement where it presently lays in ruins. The remnant to come out to Christ’s call, are they who will then symbolically be called by God’s name.  Rom 9:27; Micah 7:18; Rev 7:14; Rev 3:12; Rev 18:4-8

 

Your last words were, “I do hope you find your way back and forgiveness.” 

 

I doubt that you will get back to me on this, but how is this comment based on scripture? Truly, it cements my understanding that you also feel an organization can bring one to salvation, even if you do not support the fluctuating timeline it is based on.  If I worship the Father and uphold his Son in truth, where is forgiveness needed for doing this?

 

9).  I have no idea who you are referring to as the remnant.  If the remnant is in the organization, Christendom or a temple that has been ruined, then I recommend you and those of the remnant or whoever you think they are, do as God has directed you if you have some special commission, "(because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.”  (Acts 5:39, 40) 

 

As the words of the apostle recommends:  " . . . The prisoner in [the] Lord, entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:1-5)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. (Gal 5:19-21)

 

We should not keep account of the injury.  Forgiveness works both ways, "“For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU;  whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses."  (Matthew 6:14, 15)

I support the preaching of God's kingdom and if that appears bias with regard to the society or "organization", I certainly do not apologize for their endless efforts toward that goal.

While you cement your understanding, please understand I have been up all night and a better part of this day as I can see you are reaching out particularly to me.  I do want you to be happy.  If what you believe makes you happy and you're assured of your salvation, there is nothing more for me to say.  I remain and I will let you have the last words.