Religious shunning leaves castoffs wondering why

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

7 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

My Mother said "If you cannot stand the heat... get out of the kitchen".

"Standing" the heat in the kitchen is not a problem in a well designed kitchen.

The same for judicial systems.

The ancient Jewish judicial system of  complete transparency in all things, was open on all sides to air, truth, and accountability.

[Evacuated]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Standing" the heat in the kitchen is not a problem in a well designed kitchen.

Good point.

But it's probably more about work than thermal efficiency.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Very few analogies hold up when projected into the next county ....

When you HAVE to do certain work .... it's better in a conducive environment that lends itself to work ... rather than the main point being endurance, while you work.

Using a rock as a hammer gives crappy results.

etc.,

etc.

[Space Merchant]

Well if one has an issue with what the church has been entrusted, one would have to question the head of the church himself, whom gave said abilities to bind and loosen, the church.

Excommunication is as it is, regardless of any faith. Various things can get someone kicked out of a temple, home and or any dwelling place for worship, be it a current member and or the every-other-day guy.

Excommunication is also known as the Takfir, in Islam, and in Judaism, He'rem, which is far more worse than the common excommunication practiced and used in Christendom.

Some Christians deem excommunication too harsh, and took it upon themselves to tweak entrusted abilities, which can pose a a problem when the head of the church himself returns. Even worse, some do not use excommunication at all, thus abandoning the abilities of the church, i.e. 2 persons, seasoned members of the church caught and or revealed to have been doing brazen conduct, since their church does not practice excommunication, these 2 get off scott-free. For some form of binding and or loosening has to be in place, otherwise why attempt to follow to that of the foundation itself?

Other than that, ties with the church is cut off entirely until one reinstates him or herself to the church, despite church ties being cut, the only line of communication is family and relatives, but the spread of interfaith and or religious attacking said faith will put one in the position of Apostasy.

Excommunication can happen to anyone, any age, regardless of sex, at any time. Church ties will indeed be cut off like lumberjack cutting a tree.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I am not disagreeing with the need for church or family discipline and accountability.

I am only disagreeing with the EXTENT and SEVERITY, and CRUELTY of how it is currently done.

(... many have reacted to such "loving cruelty" with suicide, or worse.)

It's a good thing we do not chastise our wayward children by cutting off their heads.

....  with soothing words in a kind and loving way ... of course.

[Judith Sweeney]

I just know that Jehovah's eyes are everywhere and He certainly knows what is going on.   In His own time...Jehovah will correct what needs correcting.   We should all pray for and about the Elders.       I have been disfellowshipped.  The yearning for association within Pure Worship and  Good People prompted me to earn my way "back".   Of course I was angry at being disfellowshipped...but,  my behavior warranted that action.    What in this system is fair?    Jehovah knows what is going on, that is why when someone is treated unfairly, God gives the offended party strength to endure.  Hence the word "Faith".    These seeds of grumbling and discontent are machinations of the devil.   I truly believe this.   Is not Jesus Christ the Head of the Congregations?   

 

 

[Space Merchant]

15 minutes ago, Judith Sweeney said:

I just know that Jehovah's eyes are everywhere and He certainly knows what is going on.   In His own time...Jehovah will correct what needs correcting.   We should all pray for and about the Elders.   

 

Indeed. For pastors, elders stewards, servants are only putting into application what the Church has been entrusted with by means of Jesus. No one wants top put a crack and or dent in the very foundation of the church itself, the only reason why expelling aka excommunication, be it disfellowship, Herem, Takfir is as of what it is and always be, not the watered down version practiced by the mainstream. Church ties will be cut, and it is up to the person, who has been expelled, to reinstate him or herself or not, at the same time, said person has to be careful not to dwell in the realm of Apostasy.

 

I had a good source for this a while back, I will probably re-post them when I have the time.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am not disagreeing with the need for church or family discipline and accountability.

I am only disagreeing with the EXTENT and SEVERITY, and CRUELTY of how it is currently done.

(... many have reacted to such "loving cruelty" with suicide, or worse.)

It's a good thing we do not chastise our wayward children by cutting off their heads.

....  with soothing words in a kind and loving way ... of course.

I think I told Mr. Butler before, excommunication and handling by the faith itself is as it is, but at the same time it usually depends on who issues X for the actions of Y. So let's say you have an Indian church in New York (A) and a French church in Boston (B).

Let's say in Church A, someone got busted for smoking and he was only caught because of a post online, and in Church B, a similar situation, but the family found out and informed the leaders of church B.

Church A can give a warning, as well instruct while church B ends up expelling the person, church ties are cut so the church will shun you, but the expelled person does not dwell in Apostasy and later reinstates himself. Let's add another church into the mix, church C, Greek Church, same situation, this person is excommunicated, but now speaks ill of the church despite being shun by it, this will also lead that same person to be quite rude and ignorant of his actions to even his own family, at this point is is Apostasy because the expelled person this he is in the right when he was busted for smoking.

Excommunication cannot effect cultural based practices, which is something not really much known to Americans and most in the EU and it is usually in such in the Caribbean, Africa, and Asia, for Asia, East Asia to be specific, has the East Asians Filial Piety. I can give example of myself also, let's say I was of the church and was excommunicated, all church ties among the leaders with me will be gone as well as with some members who have a position in the church, at the same time, I will receive in a few months people of the church coming to speak with me, to give instruction on steps needed to work on my own error: At this point I can accept the advice and later on chose to go about it or not, I can say to myself, smoked once, it won't hurt me again, I have my own money, I can buy a pack or not. This will bring forth the strength of the family to help me put the advice into good use, and help me get back to the church. If I become an Apostate because I wish to smoke up a storm at my choosing, at this point the my family will simply leave m,e to my own devices, hoping I make the change, and then lung cancer, paid for it in the end.

In short, due to how my people are in culture and practices, excommunicated or not, there is a solution to help you with yourself and or get back to the church. As for Americans though, are not the ones to have core cultural basis compared to those who do, so that, with excommunication can lead to a lot of things, majority of the time, Apostasy because hey, when you leave a church, Apostasy is easy when you can spark Interfaith-sque attitude to everyone and your household.

Tragically, people have done these things, suicide and even murder and other things, for such ones are taking things to the extreme, and usually in social media, the information is often convoluted and leads a person of the church to actually thing this is what is going on and or God hates them and that their life is indeed worthless, but at the same time we have to take into account the value that life is, mainly in front of the eyes of the life giver himself. This also happens when Interfaith is in subjection with the expelled one's current and or former faith. But it is crazy that some would take the extreme approach as suicide when the help from other sources is present.

As for the other, technically there is Spiritual Death, out of excommunication, the other form, Herem, is a stoning of sons and daughters, not literally of course, but the presence of the one within Herem is pretty much asking to be ignored and stoned. Herem is tough because there is little to no chance to be reinstated and Apostasy leads you off road at this point, pretty much you have to rebuild your reputation of the faith community greatly in order to get yourself out of a Herem.

Other than that, church ties are severed. The only connection is your family, but the reputation with them will be a bit low due to them being in the same church as you are, and you would have to be careful with them for they are literally the key to being reinstated to the church faith. Even though the church unfriended you at this point, you have to work on yourself to build yourself back up, prove it, which can also be done to your family. And as time processes, you can go back to the church, and you, the stone, is put back in the foundation you fell from. While excommunicated, it is easy to become an Apostasy so one has to be very careful of that, for church ties can and never will be an easy to fix, and in some lands, Apostasy is like dishonoring not just God, but your family, and you'll be treated as a man treats his not so friendly mother in law.

But yeah, messing with what binds and loosens, as strict as it is, we cannot tweak and or change what it is, you can only work with what you have in this regard.

 

Oh and if we still had stoning, it is best to craft a shield for the stone storm and run away, not only that you are excommunicated, but you exile yourself from the community. Also getting pegged by a stone HURTS - like getting it by a not so smooth golf club.

[TrueTomHarley]

20 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps you would like to give some real life examples ... rather than MORE WORDS !

Accusations about shunning are the new frontier. The movie Apostasy is a hit in England and it will likely travel around the world, causing huge pressure upon our young ones.

I posted a review of the movie under the heading 'As Sherlock Says, It's GAME ON!' but because it linked to my blog where the bulk of the lengthy review remained, it was rejected for spamming. I am feuding with the Librarian, and feuding rather seriously, as my offer of compromise goes unanswered. I am this close to packing it in here, and would almost welcome the fate of Allen the Terrible, so that the decision might be made for me. I would not thereafter prove the resurrection, as he has many times.

At a time when Jehovah's people are under vicious attack on many fronts, even banned & physically assaulted in the largest country by area on earth, it is not reassuring that brothers in position to make a difference instead choose to be impartial journalists, hosting gigantic forums where petulant morons have equal say with genuinely spiritual people. One almost wonders if during the final Battle other journalists will show up wanting to make sure that each side's point of view is fairly represented.

I understand that all blogs are, by nature, competitive. However, a significant reason that Jehovah's organization works and those of the overall world do not is that members are willing to cooperate, and do not let such matters as turf wars interfere.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TTH:

Turf wars in the World are visible for all to see .... Turf wars in the Truth are hidden so that no one can know what is going on.

Why not just review the movie here ... through cut and paste ... rather than referring to your commercial blog?

I am under the impression that it has not been released here in the United States, yet.

Did you go to England to see it?  

By the way ... that is TWO questions ... for those in Rio Linda.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TTH

I did notice that in your lengthy reply .. you COULD NOT even supply ONE real life example of Mercy being shown in the administration of Justice, by the Elders or the Governing Body, even though you did quote my open challenge.

NOT A SINGLE real life example !!

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps you would like to give some real life examples ... rather than MORE WORDS !

Accusations about shunning are the new frontier. The movie Apostasy is a hit in England and it will likely travel around the world, causing huge pressure upon our young ones.

I posted a review of the movie under the heading 'As Sherlock Says, It's GAME ON!' but because it linked to my blog where the bulk of the lengthy review remained, it was rejected for spamming. I am feuding with the Librarian, and feuding rather seriously, as my offer of compromise goes unanswered. I am this close to packing it in here, and would almost welcome the fate of Allen the Terrible, so that the decision might be made for me. I would not thereafter prove the resurrection, as he has many times.

At a time when Jehovah's people are under vicious attack on many fronts, even banned & physically assaulted in the largest country by area on earth, it is not reassuring that brothers in position to make a difference instead choose to be unaffilaited journalists, hosting gigantic forums where petulant morons have equal say with genuinely spiritual people. One almost wonders if during the final Battle other journalists will show up wanting to make sure that each side's point of view is fairly represented.

I understand that all blogs are, by nature, competitive. However, a significant reason that Jehovah's organization works and those of the overall world do not is that members are willing to cooperate, and do not let such matters as turf concerns interfere.

... roughly the same thing as me asking where is a glass of milk, and you answering a detailed history of music (MOO-SIC?).

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... I will take a nap .... while you catch up.