The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

This morning I read Revelation 6 again where it talks about Jesus Riding his white horse AFTER he has been 'crowned' in heaven.

This is a good point. This fits both the Witness doctrine and the ... for lack of a better phrase ... the Biblical teachings, too. So I wouldn't attempt to claim that it doesn't fit our generation, because it easily fits our generation, too. Naturally, we have developed our interpretations of Revelation and other prophetic passages around our 1914 tradition. I use the term "tradition" advisedly. It was handed down to us from a time when we were wrong, as the Watchtower inadvertently admits, about every single chronology belief we ever held, including all the beliefs we held about 1914. We can claim just the one exception: that we had used the correct phrase about 1914, calling it "the end of the Gentile Times."

But the Bible itself explains Revelation 6 in a perfectly satisfactory way. (In general, related and parallel passages elsewhere in the Bible actually make the entire book of Revelation a much easier book to understand.) The chronological traditions we have carried down through Father Miller and Nelson Barbour and Pastor Russell and Judge Rutherford have actually imposed the kinds of contradictions that make the book more difficult than it needs to be.

But before stepping on anyone's favorite and long-held interpretations, there is something that needs to be said about "Revelation" in general. In the Bible, various "revelations" often refer to a "revealing" of what is going on in the invisible heavens as a way of explaining a difficult situation on earth. The revelation of Micaiah to Ahab explaining why all the other prophets were wrong is a good example. The book of Job is a good example, revealing what had happened in heaven that explained the troubles that Job was going through. The revelation given to Stephen where he saw Jesus standing at God's right hand is another. It was probably about the same idea when Jesus revealed that he could see Satan cast down like lightning from heaven. (Luke 10:18, with NWT footnote: Rev 12:7-9). Therefore, revelation could refer to the recent past (Micaiah, Job, etc) or the ongoing present (Stephen, etc) or the future, or possibly be allegorical in some way to represent epochs and eras of historical progression.

We know from the very statements in Revelation that it will deal with what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen from “the One who is and who was and who is coming." 

(Revelation 1:17-19) . . .the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave. 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these.

This might be an important point if we tend to come to Revelation with the prejudice that it is always about the future, and only the future.

The wider context of Revelation 6 is also helpful to show that not just future, but also past and present events are involved in the imagery. We can start with the letters to the 7 congregations in Asia Minor that were contemporary with John's lifetime. Without getting into all of them, we can make the point from the very last sentence written to the last congregation mentioned:

(Revelation 3:21-22) 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

In other words, Jesus, in the first century C.E., had already conquered and presently sat down with his Father on his throne, and could therefore, grant a future offer to anyone else who conquers to sit down with Jesus on his present throne.

That entire verse (Rev 3:21), as you can probably see, is devastating to the 1914 tradition, but it perfectly fits the Bible's view that Jesus is already "ruling as king" (NWT) in the first century, not waiting to rule as king. (1 Cor 10:25)  As king, he still waits until the time is right to conquer all his enemies, but he continues to rule in the midst of those enemies. So, I'm sure you can already see where Revelation 6 fits in.

But there are a lot more ways in which the Bible itself helps us understand the rest of the Bible. And, there is also the big picture to consider again. What is the purpose of Scripture?

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

This should also include the book of Revelation, not just in our century, but in the first century, too. Obviously, this would be true for the future, which we already appreciate, but perhaps there were more ways in which this Bible book was also already applicable for teaching, reproving, and equipping Christians when it was written, and perhaps we can appreciate more ways that it already had great value to readers in the first, ninth, and fifteenth centuries, too, for example. Evidence for this is in the context of Revelation 6.  For example:

Christians had died violently in the first century. Paul had faced persecutions, even wild beasts in the arena; Stephen had been stoned to death; the book of Acts shows that persecution was a regular occurrence. Early church writings show that martyrdom and persecution continued under many of the Roman emperors from John's day and for centuries after. Christendom has had a violent history and often treated very harshly the very Christians within it who tried to break from strongly entrenched traditions. (Wycliffe, Tyndale, Waldo, etc.)

Revelation chapter 6 gives us the interesting perspective of what these persecuted martyrs (from all ages) would say if there were wisdom and knowledge and planning in the grave. As you obviously know, this has to be seen in the context of (Ecclesiastes 9:10) ". . . for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." 

(Revelation 6:9-11) 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

That number was being filled all through the centuries, and the sentiment would easily be understood by persecuted Christians through all centuries. It fits a sub-theme of Revelation, about the question of time:  Jesus has already conquered, so what are we waiting for? And the answer is: don't worry, it's just a little longer, there are more persons who will be included in that number. In effect, because of Eccl 9:10, no one needs to wait any longer than their own lifetime. Jesus is already coming quickly. He is already actively riding in the midst of his enemies, as represented by the three other horses/horsemen he rides with. Although and it is not yet time for the last enemy to be destroyed, that time will also be due shortly (Revelation 20:13,14)

1 Cor 15:25 gives the most direct answer to Revelation 6. Jesus already has the crown (Revelation 6:2) "and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest." Therefore he is already "ruling as king" in the midst of his enemies from the very moment he sat down at the right hand of the throne of Majesty. He continues riding, just as Matthew 24 shows, in the midst of death and war and famine and persecution right up until the sign appears, at a time when it is too late, because by the time the sign appears, the great day of wrath is upon them. Clearly, Revelation 6 takes Matthew 24 and brings it past the year 70 C.E. so that it explains what has been happening in the centuries since 70 C.E.

(1 Corinthians 15:25, 26) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

It is difficult to understand why we (Witnesses) can still deny the accuracy of this verse, where Paul shows that the words "sit at my right hand" could be replaced with "rule as king." (The Watchtower's interpretation is "sit at my right hand and wait until 1914 when it finally becomes time to rule as king.") Yet even without this particular verse, there are many more that agree with it, and none that disagree with it. So even if we deny the meaning of this verse, the Bible repeats the idea elsewhere. 

 

 

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

So these things are also a part of the sign.   Jesus' followers have discernment and discretion.... they can see the signs.  The 10 virgins with the lamps - some were unprepared and the other 5 were.... because they watched out of the signs of the arrival of the bridegroom to go in to the marriage ceremony. They did not fall asleep.

The bible never mentions either a sign or signs except for the signs that are seen in heaven which is always tied to the idea of it being too late to make preparations.

Look again, you will see that the disciples asked for a sign but the first words out of Jesus' mouth were "Do not be misled!" Jesus never spoke of a composite sign that they could use to help them determine the time or season because they were already aware that they were in the season where they could expect some great event in their lifetime. They knew enough about the times they were living in that something was imminent, and this drove them to follow Jesus in the first place.  But they would get no hint from Jesus about the times and seasons, beyond what they already knew. Jesus didn't even know it himself.

But the event upon Jerusalem was still a perfect analogy for the event coming upon the entire world: there would be no sign until such time as it could be too late for many of them to escape Jerusalem if they didn't heed this warning. Therefore, stay prepared at all times, because immediately after the tribulation of those days [the "preview" of his parousia], this also immediately becomes true of the wider judgment that would come upon the entire world. 

So with that in mind, it wouldn't make sense that the wise virgins prepare through discerning "signs." We should be very surprised if Jesus mentioned that kind of wisdom and discernment in the context of any of his parables in Matthew 24 and 25. Christians should remain always ready and prepared precisely because they won't get a sign.

For me, this explains why Jesus never mentions a sign, because a sign would give you time to prepare. That was the whole point of the disciple's question: "Tell us, when...?" The parable of the 10 virgins answers this perfectly: 'Be always prepared, because when the arrival of bridegroom is upon you, it's too late to prepare.'