The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I see you guys are still at it:

I think that not even half of the Biblical evidence against the 1914 doctrine has been touched upon yet. Not that anyone wants to see this thread get twice as long, though.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Explain to me why the first world war (1914) saw the first use of extensive air battles - airplanes, the first world war saw the first widespread use of machine guns, flame throwers, submarines (only small ones used before in the civil war) chemical warfare, tanks... and the list goes on.  Then the second world war saw more advanced use of these kinds of weapons : air craft carriers, massive guns, tanks, battle of Britain in the air,  plus 2 exploded atom bombs........and gas as killing machines.    Well known historians agree that 1914 was the year the world went mad. It was the beginning of a new war era. There were wars before but not on this scale.

It's just my opinion, of course, but I think this line of reasoning completely misses the point of Jesus' words about it. 1914 could very well have been the year the world went mad, and Jesus would still be correct about it not being at all significant with respect to his "presence."

And of course, it also might not be "the year the world went mad." Yes, it was surely a war in which so many of those terrible methods and technologies were combined. And the years 1939 to 1945 might have even been worse, as you seem to admit. There have been many people who say that each of those WWII years were real years that the world went mad. Since our new definition of "this generation" can technically carry this system well past the year 2100, there may, unfortunately, be several new years which historians will claim was the year the world went made.

But even if 1914 really is the one and only year that will truly fit that definition, and even if things continued to get worse since then, and even if the great tribulation and Armageddon occur within this generation that started in 1914, all of this would still not override what the Bible says about Jesus' "presence" and his "kingdom" and "this generation" and "the sign" and the "appointed times of the nations."

The point is not about denying the historical importance of 1914, it's about being true to the Bible. It's not about scoffing at the time we are living in, or hinting that the great tribulation and Armageddon would somehow be delayed.  Again, for many Witnesses, it's about being honest.

I can't speak for those who oppose the Witnesses on this, but I doubt that any Witnesses who play "Bible's advocate" on this issue really think they are going to convince another Witness, because we know that most fellow Witnesses are of the same mindset that we ourselves have usually found ourselves to be in. It's almost always the case, in my opinion, that we will continue to believe the doctrine just as we are told, until we can take the time to look into all of the various arguments for the doctrine simultaneously. Correspondingly, it's a matter of trying to get a perspective on all the scriptures on this subject at the same time, without making mental or emotional excuses for the problems and contradictions that the doctrine creates.

I know from personal experience that by being defensive about each of the points, one at a time, that I was always able to continue satisfied about the overall doctrine, because the multiple remaining points outnumbered the single point I was defending. It was only after looking at all the scriptures on the subject together, in context, that it was easier to test whether the most likely meanings of each of those scriptures, made at least as much sense as the current doctrine.

I'll give a quick example:

Our current doctrine sometimes requires us to choose the least likely meaning or translation of several words are phrases that are made a part of the doctrine. This, of course, includes major words like the meaning of "parousia" but sometimes even smaller and seemingly unimportant words like "at" or "during." Think of the difference that we create when we translate a verse to say that something will happen "during his presence" if the more likely translation were "at his presence." Take it a step further and think about what would happen, now, if "parousia" should more likely have been translated "royal visitation"? Note that the NWT Reference Bible comes very close to admitting that this is the case in the Appedix 5B:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.” In Mt 24:3, as well as in other texts such as 1Th 3:13 and 2Th 2:1, the word pa·rou·siʹa refers to the royal presence of Jesus Christ since his enthronement as King in the last days of this system of things

So, what if the combination of those last two changes created a more likely translation of "at his royal visitation" instead of "during his presence." It isn't definitive, but it creates a translation that now fits more sensibly into the references about the "parousia" in EVERY case where the "parousia" of Jesus is mentioned. This doesn't change the meaning of parousia as "arrival and subsequent presence" when the word is used of a non-royal personage such as when Paul used the term in a general sense about himself, for example.

Now take that idea and notice that it clears up all the problems we have when trying to separate a time period between a presence and coming, manifestation, revelation. It clears up the problem we have when we try to make the presence invisible when Jesus argued that it would be as visible as lightning that shines from one end of the sky all the way to the other.

And of course, it also solves the problem of trying to allow for a chronological timing of the parousia when Jesus said that the parousia would come as a thief. Currently we still have to deny that idea from Jesus and make it the "coming" that comes as thief.

And just as importantly, it's a matter of honesty. After a full study of the subject is undertaken, looking up all the secular sources quoted, for example, we will likely find that we are truly appalled by the academic dishonesty and "spin" that have become an embarrassing part of our history in defending this doctrine. I must admit that, as a researcher, this was the first thing that truly hit me the hardest. It was easy to understand that we don't always get the meaning of scriptures right; we basically admit that each time we change our doctrines. That's a simple matter of humility and patience. But it took a lot of prayer and searching to deal with the idea that the defense of this doctrine has resulted in "dishonesty" in several places along the way. I'm not saying that any specific person has knowingly "lied" but I'm referring to blatant "academic dishonesty" in the sense of methods of avoiding evidence, or hiding evidence, or misquoting sources in such a way that evidence is distorted in the mind of the reader. If you have ever been a parent of a child, or a teacher at a high school or college level, you will likely understand.

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

My dear -  I can see your field of expertize is to argue - and only to argue.  You are also inclined to only focus on the small picture and do not see the overall picture of what is going on in the world.   I love history (all kinds and of many continents) and read what I can about it from ancient times to present.  I also watch the current news closely  - because it is history in the making! 

You said: There have been many people who say that each of those WWII years were real years that the world went mad-

WW2 was built on the technology and the mass destruction 'starting' in WW1.  In fact - many of the causes of WW2 came from the way world war one divided land and resources after the armistice and the subsequent peace treaty... There are battles being fought today in middle east which have their origins on how the land was divided when the Turkish empire was destroyed...during WW1.  It was not called the first world war for nothing... it was the first time in history that so many nations were involved against each other for the first time.  

Also,  do not negate the technology that was available for the first time in the world's entire history during WW1. Today it is still acknowledged that the battle of the Somme which was fought in trenches (they were sitting in incessant rain with mice eating dead bodies that were decomposing for months) is still one of the worst battles ever in recorded history!  Slightly less lives were lost than in the battle of Moscow during ww2 but the battle of Somme was in scope much more shocking!  (Hitler should have learnt his lesson from Napoleon's wars - there was a precedent for him to see what could happen in WW2)

 

"You said:  Since our new definition of "this generation" can technically carry this system well past the year 2100"...

You are obviously not keeping tread with current events.... or are blind to many aspects of it - so you do not see the overall impact several aspects of it is having on the world.     This week in the news: climate change has become one of the greatest threats to the American Armed Forces.  

I personally do not think that climate change is the ' largest' threat although it is one of the issues to mention regarding survival  - and I am talking survival of the human race here!    Desertification and depletion of water resources is another issue and together with climate change it is disastrous - they go hand in hand.  We are facing world hunger if things get worse... and to top that - if we get one disastrous disease on the staple food created by GM crops (GM crops take away diversification) - we will see world hunger of large populations and continents who depend on the staples only. 

If current disasters keep on (created by human activity) we will find many first world countries under assault for economic survival and a fall of our social structures as we know it today - refugees, refugees, and more refugees - economic refugees and refugees from war torn places.   Poisons in water and food resources... I am not going into details - read up about it (Bayer and Monsanto - evil companies getting the go-ahead to bring more havoc - this week in the news). 

Animals being depleted and the worst - what we are doing to the sea.  Yes mankind's rule of the earth is bringing it to ruin.  recently in the news: Sharks have never been on the endangered species list but there are areas now we they are on the watch list (their food chain is being depleted and of course, poaching). Animal's habitat are being destroyed by mass farming. Poaching of animals in Africa and the world has brought numbers down of so many animals in the last 20 years - by 50% - even though they were on the endangered species list..... It seems the world is not cooperating to tackle these problems because they all have self-interest at heart.

The point of no return - when man has damaged our earth to the extent where we cannot survive /or most humans and animals living in abject misery. Most journalists / experts  put it way sooner than the year 2100 - which you try to justify by your interpretation of the prophecies.  Many of the issues mentioned above may be  'critical' within the next 20 years .....

Trees are being destroyed and with that the "lungs of the earth"   I can go on an on about all the issues which together are going to culminate in a big disaster for mankind long before 2100  - all the related issues which are all part of the sign - the birth pangs are getting closer and closer. 

The year 2100 is like having myopia!  Experts put it at 2050 but they are starting to sing a new song now that climate change is escalating faster than expected together with its related disasters.   Countries in Africa did not plant their usual crops this year - 2016- because they were advised - it is useless because it will not survive the heat!  Hottest year on record this year - since records started.

The acidity and pollution of the sea is another problem... Have you seen how much of the ice is melting every summer? Large parts of the north pole is disappearing and many countries under water. Russia is using new sea-lanes which have opened up - ones they could never use before because of the ice.   Bangladesh - east Pakistan - many of their areas for planting crops under water now and the people are in misery.  Wars are threatening and social unrest due to bread prices going up.

These are just a few of the issues that is showing that we are reaching a "point of no return"  much quicker than anticipated.  Global warming is now speeding up due to methane emissions being released from under the ice...

 

Politics:

Add to this the world political situation - and no respect for life.  Many religions all over the world (as predicted in revelation) are getting involved in mass killings (daily) and extermination of peoples in the worst possible way.... read up about the Asia and middle east... and North Africa.  Government oppression is worsening...  and lies, lies, lies - no morality and ethics. 

Islamism (political Islam) as a world threat is now being ' hidden' by the political system  (Islamism - it is a political threat ready to destabilize the world all over).  They have even infiltrated Mexico (using criminal elements to their advantage) and our armed forces are catching them regularly on our borders trying to come in. Do you see this in the news?  The propaganda on the far right (Christians with their guns ready to fight or spurring leaders on to more war) - is one aspect of the propaganda spoken of in revelation 16: 13 - 16. We may start to see clashes when people take the law into their own hands.  Organizations which seem to be fighting for just causes (such as Black lives matter) have been infiltrated by extreme ideologies - Islamism is one of them.  

This is why Jehovah's people have it spot on when they say that we must be neutral to wars and the issues (we are aware of them but we do not take any sides). I remember every day where I learnt this.....and it has made me discerning...I do not take credit for being smart about this....  I learnt it from the right source.

The world situation now reminds me very much of the situation before the first world war and there are also similarities to the second world war.  (ww1 is not called a "world war" for nothing.....) We are again facing a world situation never seen before.  Nations are trying to avoid war as much as possible while a lot of cocky posturing is going on (North-Korea, China, Russia, Iran- middle east) - and then sudden destruction as all will fall apart.  

The threat of war between large blocks of nations and ideologies has never been greater....  and yet people are being put to "sleep"  Lulled into sleep by "this will not happen again" - just like before the second world war when everyone was appeasing Hitler.  They did not want to go to war with him so they ignored what he was doing.  Churchill lost his job because he was warning them about Hitler.  Similar today - they are ignoring all the warning signs.   This terrorism is going to make governments try to keep "security" by whatever means they can and keep information under wraps about the true state of affairs.   They will curb our rights of speech and stop the preaching work.  Oppression may even come in the form of martial law....to keep the peace and security.  In the end ... they will not be able to contain the inevitable.

And I am not going to talk about nuclear arms in the hands of terrorists and renegade nations (include Iran) - who are ready to use them as soon as they acquire them... that is obvious. Also, blocks of renegade nations who are cooperating in sinister ways Iran, Russia and China..... blocks or Iron-like governments - totalitarian. How long is this "unsteady/fragile"  situation going to last before the King of the North sees a chance to make its last assault?

In the West - which seems more like the clay - because they are molded by the 'human rights' and its council  - has already put resolutions (18-20) in place to assist governments to "hide" the true state of affairs from us.... to control the press - and this has been accepted by first world members like the EU and USA.  They are already doing so....Facebook, Twitter are already being removing  "offensive" material. ... and people are not aware...

They are telling us there is security - when in actual fact there is not  - by hiding information (as brought out in last week's Watchtower study ) I found that point to be soooo revealing of what is going on... bulls-eye...could not agree more.)

Our Patriot act (in USA) allows for the incarceration of any person deemed to be a threat to the government to be imprisoned without access to a lawyer and representation.  Indefinite incarceration ....  did you know about this law?   This will be used when "security" becomes a greater issue.... which may take a while.... but within 15 years Europe will be totally different.  Sweden already has almost 100 no-go zones and England 85 Sharia zones - many are no-go zones.... where crime and extreme ideologies are ruling.  Police do not go in there.... When one studies population growth - Europe may have Islamic elected governments in 20 years which will not guarantee any from of "freedom of religion"

So to sum up the above - the environmental, political, economic and social structures are all under threat at this very moment.... if the earth's population do not cooperate to fix it ... the world is heading downhill - fast.

This brings your casual comment of  things going on until 2100 in serious jeopardy - so I suggest you re-evaluate your personal  ideas about the bible prophecies and start to acknowledge that the time-lines given by the JWs is closer to the truth than you have acknowledged so far. If it is the truth - then events on the ground must corroborate the interpretation of the prophecy. 

You argue in such a way that everything fits in perfectly with your idea of the last days and try to make it look as though you are sticking close to scripture - but you are not - and what is happening on the ground is not fitting the picture you are painting at all!

I often have discussions with my husband about the "letter  of the law" and when people do not get the "spirit of the law"  It is similar in prophecy:  people will argue about the minute details when the reality of the BIG picture is totally evading them - they cannot see it.

 

[HollyW]

On 9/16/2016 at 9:16 PM, JW Insider said:

Since our new definition of "this generation" can technically carry this system well past the year 2100, there may, unfortunately, be several new years which historians will claim was the year the world went made.

GKR p.12: the anointed ones who are still alive and part of "this generation" are getting on in years; yet, they will not all die off before the great tribulation begins.

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

My dear -  I can see your field of expertize is to argue - and only to argue. 

Chuckling out loud. I can see why someone might say that if they were only to focus on points made in this little thread. But our lives are fabrics of thousands of interwoven threads. And although I enjoy many types of learning and experiences, I don't think I am expert in any of them. As I type this, I'm primarily a grandparent playing with my granddaughter right now (my 10-hours-a-day job, three days a week, with my wife next to me, and the baby between us. Among all this activity with toys, playing games, and reading to her, I'm also trying to keep her from seeing the phone that I'm hiding off to my right, so that she doesn't get hooked on pixels.

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

You are also inclined to only focus on the small picture and do not see the overall picture of what is going on in the world.

Yes, I tend to focus on several hundred of these 'small pictures.' It's true that this is always my first inclination, to focus on all the small pictures, and then I even think about whether there are more small pictures that I might have forgotten about, but it's never the overall goal. When you learn a language, for example, no one complains that you are only focusing on the "small picture" if you focus for a while on vocabulary and grammar, but it's a legitimate complaint if you were to spend so much time on vocabulary and grammar that you forget the overall goal, which (in that case) is probably to communicate with others and let others communicate with you.

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

It was not called the first world war for nothing... it was the first time in history that so many nations were involved against each other for the first time.

With all the points made in these threads, I'm sure that it gives a skewed impression when we only pick up on those things that we disagree about, and hardly ever mention where we agree. I happen to agree with the entire paragraph where the quote above came from, and the next one after that, and for that matter, probably 95% of everything you said in that entire post.

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

Also,  do not negate the technology that was available for the first time in the world's entire history during WW1.

You probably noticed that I didn't negate this. In fact, I would happily stipulate that WWI was a year that the world went mad. I brought up WWII only because you said it was worse and this goes to the point of not focusing so closely on a single year as the one and only demarcation point in history. And I think you were right that it was even worse during WWII, and of course the nuclear era during that time was a new historical demarcation, too.  With respect to military technology, others have even pointed to the wider use of battleships, and submarines, and some have even claimed that use of the Gatling gun in the 1800's was the great historical turning point of warfare technology. You probably know that Brother Russell was able to show how world conditions prior to 1910 had also provided "proof" that the parousia had begun in 1874.

But I don't mention these things to discount the idea that 1914 was a very important year in history. And I agree that this was a time when so many of these technologies came together at once. I also agree about both the short-term and long-term social and political effects of WWI on subsequent wars and the social conditions in the era we have lived in since then.

I don't say any of this to discount the seriousness of the time we live in, nor to discount the closeness of the end. I agree with almost everything you said about this time period. My point is that (in my own conscience) I believe we should also fear adding our own traditions, and imposing our own ideas onto the Bible. I also know that there are others who might be concerned that we have done this, too. Therefore, I'm responding to the question by offering my view that the usual methods we have used over the years to defend the doctrine actually result in Bible contradictions -- the major one having been pointed out in the question of the OP at the top of this thread.

Therefore, for those who are concerned, either because they studied all the details, or even if they never plan to, I would like to present the reasons that we can still have faith in the promises even if 1914 proves to be incorrect. We don't need to add the specific date of 1914 to the Bible for Jesus to be right. For me, this fact doesn't delay the presence or the coming of Jesus in the least. It shouldn't even be such a great concern, because with or without 1914, nothing at all changes with respect to the object and manner and even the time of Jesus' return.

When 1914 failed the first time, in 1914, many people left or became less active the organization. (The Watchtower claimed this was so in the 1915 report on the work in 1914.) When 1925 was made a part of the 1914 chronological scenario, many people left the organization when that failed, too. When 1975 (and what the mid-70's would bring) was tied to the length of the generation of people who had seen 1914, many people left the organization when that failed, too. The need to re-define the generation several more times since then has also resulted in new problems. People have admitted to me personally (and others, I'm told) that they are troubled especially by the most recent change to that definition, because it appears to create a Bible contradiction. Some Witnesses have rationalized that it's a good thing that some have stumbled over things like this, because it was a test to see whether their faith was focused correctly. I think our love for the flock should motivate us to go beyond that rationale.

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

"You said:  Since our new definition of "this generation" can technically carry this system well past the year 2100"...

You are obviously not keeping tread with current events.... or are blind to many aspects of it - so you do not see the overall impact several aspects of it is having on the world.     This week in the news: climate change has become one of the greatest threats to the American Armed Forces.  

I personally do not think that climate change is the ' largest' threat although it is one of the issues to mention regarding survival  - and I am talking survival of the human race here!

We're in absolute agreement about current events, climate change, and the survival of the human race. Yet, it's still true that we have also said that this system could not go past 1914, then 1915, then 1925, then not many months past the mid-1940's, then not many months past the mid-70's, and then we said, multiple times, that this system would see its end before the year 2000/2001. Currently we are saying that the second part of "this generation" is getting old, but Brother Splane has also produced a chart that explains it, which technically allows for someone like FWFranz to be part of the first group. Brother Franz lived to be 99 and died in 1991. He was said to be an example of someone in that first group and not definitvely the last person in that group. What about another anointed brother in that group who may have been born in say 1904 and lived to be 106. (My son-in-law's grandmother just turned 102.) That brother might, by definition, "overlap" as a contemporary with someone in the second group as late as the year 2010. If the brother in the second group lives to be 106, then "this generation" could potentially reach the year 2116, one hundred years from today.

That's just an example, of course. I believe that this is not currently the intention to stretch it out this far, nor do I think that the system can last that long without cooperation to solve some huge life-threatening issues. Yet, some of these big issues may even be closer and bigger than we realize. Something could happen later this year that might make historians claim the world began a new era of historical demarcation. This, again, is not said to discount the historical importance of 1914, but to show that this idea alone has always been tenuous, and has, so far, always embarrassed us.

Based on what most Witnesses are saying about the overlapping generation concept, it is apparently meant to point to the idea that the system is not expected to go on for several more decades. The great tribulation could begin tonight, or in the next couple of decades, but very few Witnesses expect this system to go on for 40 more years, much less 100 years.

But this could potentially create a problem again. We don't want to admit it, but we know it's true. We know it's happened many times before. The longer the system goes on, the more focus on the length of that generation, and the more at odds we are with Jesus' words about not being able to know the times or the seasons.
 

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/19/2016 at 3:14 AM, Arauna said:

It is similar in prophecy:  people will argue about the minute details when the reality of the BIG picture is totally evading them - they cannot see it.

The big picture in Jesus words, the over-arching message, was that the end, the parousia, comes unannounced the way a "thief in the night" arrives. The thief doesn't give you signs and warnings, and even if he did, we couldn't see them very well, because it's in the night. But when it finally did arrive, we would know it, and we shouldn't be that surprised because Jesus warned us to always be ready.

Jesus also said that we shouldn't believe anyone who tells us that the Christ has already arrived but we just can't see him, he's just not visible right now, because he is over here or over there or in some inner chambers. Why? Because when the parousia arrives it will be like "lightning." Lightning is not invisible. It is unmistakable.

Here's another example of what happens when people start nit-picking the words of Jesus looking for "signs" of the parousia, without getting the overall big picture. They see that Jesus answered the question about the sign by starting out, in effect, 'Don't get misled about wars and reports of wars and earthquakes. Yes these things will happen [in this generation between 33 and 70] but they are not signs of the end. You will not get signs of the end because it has to happen like a thief. The parousia will be like the days of Noah when people were just carrying on as if things were normal, peaceful and secure, getting married, etc., right up until the day the Flood came and swept them all away."

Now if we don't get the big picture, we would look at what Jesus said about the Flood and imply that Jesus forgot to add the part about Noah warning them, and Noah's implicit message to them through the building of a big ark that must have gotten everyone's attention. Because we want the message of Jesus to be about a full generation filled with signs and warnings, while Jesus, on the other hand, only focused on the way most people were caught by surprise on the day the Flood swept them all away. Two people could be sitting and working on the same mundane, peaceful activity, when one is taken away and one remains.

• (Matthew 24:41, 42) 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

The same thing happens when Paul says that as to the times and seasons we need nothing to be written to us, because [just like in the days of Noah] when people thought they had 'peace and security' [to continue eating and drinking and marrying] the day would catch them by surprise like a thief in the night.

If we get the big picture, we will see that Paul meant the same thing Jesus meant when he said:

 (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16; 5:1-4) 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,. .. . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

(Matthew 24:36-44) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

Have you noticed that some people will do exactly the opposite of what Paul said and try to turn even the cry of "Peace and Security" into another "sign"? He was clearly referring to the lack of a sign. He said we need "nothing" to be written to us about the chronology of the parousia, because that parousia -- the day of the Lord -- comes without warning.

Notice that Jesus, too, calls the parousia, the day of the Lord, when he says that "they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the parousia of the Son of man will be . . . Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." Paul indicates the same thing (quoted above in 1 Thess 4:15,16) when he says that the "parousia" of the Lord is the time when the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet.

(1 Thessalonians 2:19) 19 For what is our hope or joy or crown of exultation before our Lord Jesus at his presence?. . .

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

(1 Thessalonians 5:23) . . .be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. . .

(1 Corinthians 1:6-8) . . ., 7 so that you do not lack in any gift at all, while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make you firm to the end so that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

There is a consistency in the big picture that is lost when we try to impose a different meaning on a few scriptures and then not realize that we have produced contradictions in other scriptures. Note:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) 2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. . . . 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

The problem with trying to turn the parousia into an extended presence has even made some people in our day claim that the parousia, or the day of Jehovah is already here, even before the lawless one has been brought to nothing by the manifestation of his parousia.

Notice that the parousia is a "revelation" and a "manifestation," a time of "glory" and "shining brightly" like "lightning" and that the Bible no where speaks of its invisibility:

(2 Thessalonians 1:9, 10) . . .from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder . . .

Some will even then turn 1 Thess 4 and 5 on its head by claiming that the resurrection has already occurred. Some will say this is not important any more, but it's an issue that we should be very careful with, according to Paul.

(2 Timothy 2:18) 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.

Paul went to a lot of trouble in 1 Thessalonians 4 to show how we would know that the resurrection had not already occurred, because Christians would "at the same time" meet the Lord in the air. We discussed earlier how this verse was once given a meaning that we no longer give it. The current meaning makes it impossible, however, to solve the contradiction of "at the same time."

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) 15 . . . we the living who survive to the [parousia] of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, [at the same time] with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. [NWT Reference Bible]

You will notice that we had to change "at the same time" to "together" to avoid the contradiction. Altogether, however, the "big picture" tells us that this is the parousia, the time when the resurrection actually does occur -- and this is why there would be no advance sign of that day, because the only sign will be on that very day when the event is unmistakable. You will also note that clouds are not associated with invisibility, but with "seeing."

(Matthew 24:30, 31) 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together. . .

You may also note that we have adjusted parts of this same imagery that once applied to the time since 1914 only to the "end" in spite of the translation of "synteleia" as "conclusion."

(Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels,. . .  43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . .

This is because the term we translate "conclusion" can also be translated "end" or more specifically the "end of all things" together. 1 Peter uses a similar expression with the word "telos" [ending] rather than syn-telos [ending together]:

(1 Peter 4:7) 7 But the end of all things has drawn close. . . .

• (1 Peter 1:13) 13 So brace up your minds for activity; keep your senses completely; set your hope on the undeserved kindness that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

So, to me, the "big picture" is when we consider the whole entire gamut. It's true that it's made up of hundreds of little pictures, but these must all fit consistently into the big picture.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

On 9/15/2016 at 10:11 PM, AllenSmith said:

Meantime, try reading Pastor Russell’s Blog that was set by the Bible Students to answer your misplaced accusations. If not at least look at the Bible Student Monthly.

I did. Did you? If you did so with any basic comprehension, you would realize that Russell was saying 'the world' as in 'Planet Earth' would "abideth forever" but that he was promoting the idea that 'the world' as people knew it would end. I.e. the world system of things, the institutions, the 'Gentile' governments would be crushed out of existence (in fulfillment of Dan. 2:44); there would be a period of world-wide anarchy; the ungodly would be done away with; and then a millennium of peaceful messianic rule would be ushered in. 

Look:

The only one looking foolish is you, Allen.

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves

Paul's words from 1Thess. 5:4 are the most significant in this thread for me.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Paul's words from 1Thess. 5:4 are the most significant in this thread for me.

Same here! Glad to find something we can agree on again!

[Evacuated]

Just now, JW Insider said:

Same here! Glad to find something we can agree on again!

[Arauna]

This morning I read Revelation 6 again where it talks about Jesus Riding his white horse AFTER he has been 'crowned' in heaven.

The second seal reveals the fiery horse which takes away the peace from the earth - great slaughter....on the earth

The next seal reveals a black horse with the scales in the riders hands - widespread food shortages...

The pale horse - untimely death - by many things such as plague and people being killed by the wild beasts of the earth - people who act more savagely than animals... they are called wild beasts.   I have read some terrible things about what is currently going on  ..... and it is worse than we can imagine what these beastlike savage people are doing...... cutting peoples lives off prematurely in horrific ways....going on in many parts of the world. 

All these things happen AFTER Jesus has already been crowned. - the scripture is clear about that.   So these things are also a part of the sign.   Jesus' followers have discernment and discretion.... they can see the signs.  The 10 virgins with the lamps - some were unprepared and the other 5 were.... because they watched out of the signs of the arrival of the bridegroom to go in to the marriage ceremony. They did not fall asleep.

Your explanations do not corroborate the above scripture because the next verses shows that there is time that passes and they ask "until when" .... and they rest a little while longer " until the full 144, 000 has been filled .... in the meantime people are getting tired to wait.

"They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true,+ are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”+ ¹¹  And a white robe was given to each of them,+ and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.+

AFTER this:  ¹⁴  And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up,+ and every mountain and every island was removed from its place.+ ¹⁵  Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.+ ¹⁶  And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us+ and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne+ and from the wrath of the Lamb,+ ¹⁷  because the great day of their wrath has come,+ and who is able to stand?  Armageddon arrives.  I just read what is there.... no intellectual smarty-pants exercises needed......

 

 

[HollyW]

I was just reading Revelation 6:2 in the WTS commentary of 1917, "The Finished Mystery", about the rider of the white horse:

 

 

6:2. And I saw. — John beheld in vision the first strange and wonderful feature of the Divine plan for the permission of evil as it related to epochs of the Church, beyond his own epoch — that of Smyrna 

And behold a white horse. — The doctrines, teachings of the Lord and the Apostles recognized as the one and only rule of faith and practice of God's Church.

And he that sat on him. — The Bishop of Rome, the embryo Pope, the personal representative of Satan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

100 years ago... I keep track of what is happening now.  I study history to understand the context of times but I never look back with the knowledge of today and expect people back then to have the insight we have today. One must see everything within its historical context....