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Jack Ryan

Depression Is A Part Of This Life

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Depressingly low turn-out.

(Of course, this is not the actual picture of the KH during the talk. It's just a "still" picture used as a background and kept there during the entire recording.)

Perhaps if someone "leaked" every meeting and talk, more people would make an opportunity to listen.

I think the focus of the talk was about Witnesses getting "worn down" by the "strain" of repeated activities of meetings and service and keeping up, as he said, "week after week, month after month, year after year," or discouraged by difficulties dealing with opposition, and world conditions, difficulties in old age, health, marriage, singleness, being stuck with a bad partner "forever," stress, etc.

The speaker admitted that depression is not admitted by many people who suffer it, and that it is probably a problem among us that is "bigger than we may realize." He gave the comparison of our Witness activities to the world as if it was a reason to explain higher rates of depression among Witnesses than the rest of the world, because, as he said, the world 'has more time to relax, take naps, go out on the town on the weekends, watch TV etc. So we shouldn't be surprised that we [Witnesses] get depressed.'

Barren Hannah was the initial example with vexation, crying, and lack of appetite. But even this was never tied to medical depression, just an example to show that depression has been known through history. The speaker read a couple of quotes about these more serious forms of depression, but tied them only to "depressing problems" such as the bad economy. For younger ones in the congregation, it was mostly focused on how saying always saying "No" to pressures about dating, sex, drugs, masturbation, sports, and college education "gets old" and the speaker said it's a worse feeling for them when they want to do these things, but feel "hemmed in by Jehovah's righteous standards." (Unfortunately, statements like this can directly produce a judgmental attitude against fellow congregation members who become depressed.) 

I like that there were good reminders of why we should not let certain people like the elderly become "invisible" and "forgotten" or even how pioneers might be going through problems with apathetic territories, and loss of joy. Self-sacrificing efforts don't seem appreciated by elders and publishers, the speaker says. Ministerial Servants are like "unsung heroes" who aren't noticed and may feel continually passed over when wanting to become an elder. And elders have a lot expected from them, and it's a lot of work with a non-stop schedule and may fall short, or they are dealing with a lot of spiritual problems in the congregation.

But there was nothing about medical or clinical depression. And the examples and solutions were not appropriate to that kind of depression. I was a bit struck that from very early on, the talk included the same standard encouragement that would be given even if the talk had nothing to do with depression, re-using material from a standard marriage talk, standard encouragement for single persons, elderly, and those who feel overworked or underappreciated. (e.g., To become better prospective mates: sisters should learn to cook more than one or two dishes, and brothers should be more spiritual than the sisters: spiritual heads, not their spiritual peers.)

He read from 2 Sam 12, where David could have got depressed when he lost a son by Bathsheba who lived for a week. But seemed cold and hard-hearted and did not grieve. Similarly, he says, we have "no reason to depress ourselves over the past and hang onto that but instead live in the present and for the future." This can be good advice in general, but has little to do with serious depression, and David's example is depressing in itself, because it seems to be insight into his own unique personality, not intended as advice helpful to a seriously depressed person. 

On the overworking of elders, the suggestion to delegate to MS and other baptized brothers is a good idea to reduce stress, which gives more time for elders to reduce their own stress and focus on shepherding. But he says there has been a branch-wide trend for brothers not to reach out when they could. 

A good reminder at the end was that depressed people shouldn't feel that Jehovah has left them. He added, that it's not the time to isolate themselves, but to get more involved in the congregation. In conclusion, he read two verses. The first  in 1 Cor 10:13 that says:

(1 Corinthians 10:13) 13 No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. [speaker inserted the word: "depression" here] But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Don't know how appropriate it is to link depression with temptation, but the idea was that it would never go beyond what you can bear, which is why he added the caveat next. There was finally, an acknowledgement at the end that really serious depression can exist, too. It took a total of about 6 seconds:

"Now at times a person's depression can be so severe that it may require professional help and if that's the case, so be it."

And then he immediately spoke for a few more seconds on the grave dangers of professional help, and the fact that it could result in bigger problems than the depression itself. This can be true, but I didn't think he was being supportive, encouraging or consoling to those who may have found it necessary to seek professional help. It's really a discouragement and even a kind of judgment for those who have felt it necessary to seek this kind of help.

Similarly, twice in the talk he had mentioned how Jehovah doesn't forget our "work" and another verse used at the conclusion appeared to provide a word of encouragement that was a bit out of context.

(2 Chronicles 15:7) 7 But you, be strong and do not become discouraged, for your activity will be rewarded.”

I was hoping he would have focused on a less reward-centered message, but use the motivation that Christians find happiness in, including our inward response to "undeserved kindness" the opposite of a reward-centered message. Therefore, I think a good conclusion could have included ideas from passages like this one, instead:

(Ephesians 5:15-20) 15 So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. 17 On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. 18 Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, 19 speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, 20 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father.

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      That's crazy. Usually when you walk by here, you see the guys up there attached to something,' Lopez, 50, of Los Angeles told the LA Times. 'Now I'm gonna feel sick walking by here.'
      This is the first accident to happen at the location, the Times reported. There were around 850 workers on the site as of last week.  
      The Wilshire Grand Center is located on South Figueroa Street, at one of the busiest intersections in the city. The man's fall resulted in disruption to traffic flow.
      Upon completion, the $1billion skycraper, which has been under construction for two years, will be the tallest building west of the Mississippi. It will reach a height of 73 stories and will be 1,100 feet tall, including a 100-foot spire.
      It is expected to open early 2017. 
      Family and friends paid tribute to the 'sweet' man with a 'good heart' that was always so full of life.
      Susanne Dean wrote on Facebook: 'Joseph was very sweet and made us laugh and we had some good times with him...my boys thought he was so cool to invite them over to play video games and just hang out.
      'He was full of hope and life. That is the Joseph that we will remember.'
      Eric Mutuc added: 'Joseph was a friend of mine when we were children. He had a good heart, and although he may not have ever known it, I loved him like a brother. 
      Jerron Ragan said: 'Rest in peace Joseph Sabbatino. You were always a good friend. I'll miss you.'

      Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3508352/LA-electrician-36-plunged-53-stories-death-West-Coast-s-highest-skyscraper-committed-suicide-coroner-rules.html
       








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    • An interesting take with a lot to say for it. When Jude mentions these "rocks beneath the surface" for example, it always reminds me of the first time I read "Paul and Thecla" while at Bethel, but at the NYPL, via a book about Christian widows of the 2nd century. Paul and Thecla is an early Christian short story or novella with Thecla, not Paul, as the hero. It's one of a few stories of this type, probably written by and for women in the early Christian congregations. The antagonists of some of these stories are the 2nd century "circuit overseers" who would go from congregation to congregation saying all the right things from the "platform" but then they would also quietly worm their way into the houses of well-meaning sisters and widows, and try to take advantage of them sexually. I was quite surprised when the Watchtower last year mentioned Paul and Thecla for the second time in nearly 100 years, and was again surprisingly supportive of the work as containing possible reflections of true traditions believed in the 2nd century: *** w18 March p. 13 par. 3 Questions From Readers *** The Acts of Paul and Thecla was highly regarded in early centuries, as confirmed by the fact that 80 Greek manuscripts of it exist, as well as versions in other languages. Thus, our artistic presentations are in line with some ancient indications of what the apostle looked like. I personally have never experienced a "bad" circuit overseer. All of them have been exemplary and I have always looked forward to their visits, especially when hearing a new one for the first time. But I think all of us old-timers have had experience with congregational drifters, and we often look at them with the same kinds of suspicions. Sometimes it's a young brother who is very vague about his last congregation and who quickly latches on to an association with another eligible sister. Sometimes it's a more elderly brother, perhaps even a special pioneer, looking for an alternate congregation, hoping the trouble he caused in the last congregation won't get reported in too much detail. (Speaking from a real example, this elderly brother also latched onto a "relationship," and place to stay, with a family of sisters: a sister with an unbelieving and ailing husband, and a couple of daughters. It was a recipe for disaster.) The younger brother caused some heart-ache by getting engaged to a sister, and the engagement was later broken off.  It's hard for me not to imagine such cases when I read Jude. So, at first, it was hard for me to see them as drifters into forums like this one to cause other kinds of trouble, but I can definitely see a similarity now.  
    • I’m not really sure what “worshipful” means.  When celebrities come into town, they are mobbed by fans. Are those fans worshipful? I might say yes, but the fans themselves will just say they they are flocking to them out of respect for their accomplishments. If brothers pose for selfies with the GB members (much to the latter’s annoyance, I am consistently told, someone said with the possible exception of Lett) are they “worshipful?” It’s in the eye of the beholder, I think. Though I have a great many faults, admiring personalities is not one of them. I would love to have a GB member stay at my house so I could ignore him. “There’s your room—make yourself at home. If you’d like to visit, that works fine, but you have many things to do and if you ignore us completely that also works fine with us,”  Probably there are few words they could hear that would please them more. And no, @James Thomas Rook Jr., I wouldn’t present them with a list of my QUESTIONS that, as MEN of HONOR, they are obligated to answer,
    • Just for interest, here is an interview with prince Andrew. It's acutely embarrassing the excuses  he makes and the denials.... Read comments, they are entertaining  
    • Yes. Just watched it. I like that you talk about the broad effects of the impact whistleblowing has had in this particular area. It's not just the Witnesses, but many institutions. Many guilty people would have probably got away with sexual abuse 20 years ago, but not so much today. Even royalty have been put under the microscope. History is rife with stories of rich dirty old men having sex with underage girls and getting away with it. When enough people make noise, it can't be ignored.
    • Maybe this was in the sense of these "bad elders" rejecting the counsel given by "good elders" who were quoting Bible books and the Mosaic Law (as transmitted through angels), or these "bad elders" were speaking out against sayings of Jesus and inspired writings of the apostles, as if they held no value to this time they were in, so many decades after Jesus originally spoke them. Also (less likely) Jude quotes the book of Enoch, specifically a part about the judgment of angels, and he appears to refer to another book about the "Assumption of Moses." We don't know how much more of those books were accepted other than the portions referenced, but these books were part of a genre that gave names to dozens of angels and referenced many more hierachies of thousands of angels. Good point! I doubt it. There are too many scriptures, and too much context that shows what Paul was up against in trying to get the congregations to accept and understand the concept of "grace" or "undeserved kindness." (Along with "law" "legalism" "works" "righteousness" "sin" "conscience" etc.) Paul had to write chapters, nearly whole long letters, on the subject, and it even put him for a short while at odds with the Jerusalem council. Probably it is sometimes. But I'd guess there are some exceptions, too. For example, the whistleblowing of the CSA cases all over the world has drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get away with anything (as Trump claimed), think twice. It has definitely helped in some suburban schools and even corporations I once worked for. I suspect that many priests and elders who once thought they would get away with anything are now more apt to think again before abusing persons.
    • The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV said: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. The tendency among 19th century Adventists was to see a "chronology" element or "time" element in the English expression that did not exist in the original Greek. Therefore, the idea was that: even when in the midst of learning or teaching falsehood, it was still "present truth" at the time, and what is now "present truth" could turn out to be false in the future, but it will always have been "present truth" because it's always the best we had at the time. From the Greek, this is better translated as "the truth that is present in you" (American Standard and NWT).  A similar rush to see a time element in the English translation was done by Barbour and Russell and others who had been associated with Adventists. Here's an example from Leviticus: (Leviticus 26:28) 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins. This was originally the primary source for Russell's 7 times = 2,520 years, and the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about his own insanity was only a secondary source. But we have since learned that Leviticus here didn't refer to chronological "times" but the sense was "7 times as much" as in "I will hit you twice as hard, or three times as hard, or seven times as hard." This was already in the context, but chronologists and numerologists rarely notice the context until they have already formed a time related doctrine. (Leviticus 26:18-21) . . .“‘If even this does not make you listen to me, I will have to chastise you seven times as much for your sins. . . . 21 “‘But if you keep walking in opposition to me and refuse to listen to me, I will then have to strike you seven times as much, according to your sins. Now that we have noticed this, we have been stuck with using Nebuchadnezzar as if his wicked Gentile kingdom somehow represented Christ's Messianic non-Gentile kingdom. (Another contradiction between 1914 and the Bible.) We still tend to make a "chronology word" out of things having to do with time when we translate the Greek word for time as "appointed time" instead of what might better be translated as "opportune time." Note that it's the exact same word "time" in these two verses: (Ephesians 5:16) 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. (Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in: Will you find the opportunity to do this? Will you find the time to do this? Not: Will you find the appointed day and hour to do this? We have added a more specific chronological sense that usually isn't necessary in the Greek.  
    • Elon Musk shows himself to rather out of touch with science. He is using his money to make a name for himself by driving forward with some outlandish plans. He is an embarrassment to his own employees sometimes when he quotes pseudo-scientific ideas that have been obsolete for decades. (One of these was the idea of using nuclear explosions to make Mars inhabitable.) But his optimism to get employees to "make it happen" will drive some scientific progress in spite of himself. Even here, however, he has often just attached his name to some idea that came out of Japan or China or some US or European scientific think tank that was never associated with Musk. He attaches his own unrealistic timelines to these ideas, however, and then begins to lose credibility.  This particular idea has some merit, but there is a lot more expense in creating the infrastructure than people realize. There is the mining of the elements that go into solar cells, the manufacture of solar panels, the trucking of materials to such a solar hub, the infrastructure to build out the lines from the hub across the USA. Currently these types of expenses reduce the ROI value of this particular type of renewable energy so much that it makes carbon (coal/oil/petroleum) seem much more desirable for generating power, and for which an infrastructure is already in place. When viable, I would like to see how close to Hoover Dam this could be built to re-use some power lines that emanate from there, and already reach to many southwest states. Perhaps an even better idea would be to find a place near Yuma or Mexicali, so that half of the power would be used to desalinate water for Mexico and the US by piping saltwater from the Gulf of California, then freshwater back out with a mountain or salt and minerals as a byproduct.    
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