Christians look forward to the rapture

[HollyW]

25 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc.

Also from the website jw.org

 

[JaniceM]

22 minutes ago, HollyW said:

 

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc.

You say you didn't understand the connection between what the QFR article in the 4/1/1986 wt and that of preaching the wrong timing of the first resurrection as being apostasy.  I'll quote it from the article [bolding is mine]:

 

Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

What do such beliefs include?

 

 

 

That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.

 

 

 

 

Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position?

Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.)

There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

 

    

Thanks again Holly,

I did manage to read the entire article.  I would agree with the article concerning those basic teachings including perhaps 1914 as being a marked year as the end of the gentile period or beginning of Christ's reign in the heavens.  However, there is no one scripture that directly mentions the year, 1914, or that one must believe this in order to receive salvation.  Therefore, I disagree it should be a reason for branding anyone an apostate if they believe otherwise.  The end of the article states:

 

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.

 

Finally, growing up among several different Christian denominations from the First Baptist Church to the Second/Third Baptist/Methodist Church (smile), if you don't believe in hellfire, or if your females wear pants, don't cover their heads, or divorced, etc., they're not one of us and going to hell.  I think all denominations have rules, beliefs and guidelines they require their parishioners to abide by or believe.  Again, in my case, I've had to choose my battles. 

[JaniceM]

25 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Also from the website jw.org

 

I apologize for I did not always see a direct quote(s).  What I saw was references to quotes which I had to look up.  Many in the forum have complained about innuendoes or comments that don't always match up with the exact quotes or articles.

[JaniceM]

36 minutes ago, HollyW said:

I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said.  The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918.  But that was not all of the 144,000, they say.  There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven.

Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS? 

 

 

 

I would still like the exact quote you mentioned below:

 

37 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

 

[HollyW]

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I did manage to read the entire article.  I would agree with the article concerning those basic teachings including perhaps 1914 as being a marked year as the end of the gentile period or beginning of Christ's reign in the heavens. 

You probably noticed that one of the teachings listed in the article has already been changed:

 

 

That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47)

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

However, there is no one scripture that directly mentions the year, 1914, or that one must believe this in order to receive salvation. 

That's correct, but the article itself does mention 1914 and does say you must believe it in order to received salvation:

 

 

Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

 

I think 1914 qualifies as a Scriptural belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you?

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.

I'm not so sure about that since the article itself does seem to be pretty dogmatic about disagreeing with even just one of their teachings.  In another WT they say JWs should not even be harboring thoughts that are in disagreement with WTS teachings:

 

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas

when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

 

 

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

16 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

 

 

Finally, growing up among several different Christian denominations from the First Baptist Church to the Second/Third Baptist/Methodist Church (smile), if you don't believe in hellfire, or if your females wear pants, don't cover their heads, or divorced, etc., they're not one of us and going to hell.  I think all denominations have rules, beliefs and guidelines they require their parishioners to abide by or believe.  Again, in my case, I've had to choose my battles. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that there are those things worth the "battle", so to speak, and some that aren't, and from what the WTS says about preaching the wrong timing of the resurrection (about it being apostasy) this seems like an important topic to research and discuss. So I appreciate your posts and the time and consideration you've given to them.

 

[HollyW]

20 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I would still like the exact quote you mentioned below:

 

58 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

 

Well, let's look at the first of those two quotes I posted earlier:

[w93 1/15 p. 6]

Upon dying in faithfulness during Christ’s presence, each one of the remnant of spiritual Israel instantaneously receives his heavenly reward. “In the twinkling of an eye,” he is resurrected as a spirit creature and “caught away” to meet Jesus and to serve as a co-ruler in the Kingdom of the heavens.

It is saying just what I said, isn't it: as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS....

 

 

[JaniceM]

2 hours ago, HollyW said:

You probably noticed that one of the teachings listed in the article has already been changed:

 

 

That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47)

 

 

 

That's correct, but the article itself does mention 1914 and does say you must believe it in order to received salvation:

 

 

Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

 

I think 1914 qualifies as a Scriptural belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you?

I'm not so sure about that since the article itself does seem to be pretty dogmatic about disagreeing with even just one of their teachings.  In another WT they say JWs should not even be harboring thoughts that are in disagreement with WTS teachings:

 

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas

when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

 

 

 

 

I agree that there are those things worth the "battle", so to speak, and some that aren't, and from what the WTS says about preaching the wrong timing of the resurrection (about it being apostasy) this seems like an important topic to research and discuss. So I appreciate your posts and the time and consideration you've given to them.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I did not see where it mentions you must believe in the year 1914 in order to receive salvation but to be associated as one of Jehovah's Witnesses:

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

Therefore, I would have to agree to disagree.  At one point an elder mentioned they do not always agree when coming together to meet on issues, but in the end they have to come to a meeting of minds so that there is not a split or cause for angry divisions, which throughout history resulted in many denominations that sprang up.  I can agree with the main tenets of my faith, and whatever thoughts I harbor will be between me and Jehovah and not big enough issues for me to cause chaos. 

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

I'm sorry, but I did not see where it mentions you must believe in the year 1914 in order to receive salvation but to be associated as one of Jehovah's Witnesses:

Well, the article mentions this about 1914:

That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence.

They say rejecting even just one of their teachings is apostasy.......iow, no salvation.

And, the teachings listed in the article aren't the only ones because it says the "entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses."

Anyway, we seem to have gotten off the topic in my OP.  I had wanted to ask you about the scriptures I posted, especially the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4.  Does it seem to you to be talking about two different events, one that happens immediately and then one that takes place over a very large stretch of time?

[JaniceM]

6 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Well, the article mentions this about 1914:

 

 

That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence.

 

 

They say rejecting even just one of their teachings is apostasy.......iow, no salvation.

And, the teachings listed in the article aren't the only ones because it says the "entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses."

Anyway, we seem to have gotten off the topic in my OP.  I had wanted to ask you about the scriptures I posted, especially the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4.  Does it seem to you to be talking about two different events, one that happens immediately and then one that takes place over a very large stretch of time?

 

I understand your concern.  However, the same would apply to any other religious organization that demand its members uphold their beliefs or consider them gone astray.  It was once considered apostasy by the church to read the Bible among many other rules and regulations.  I would have to say I've never agreed with the all the beliefs of any denomination and that includes my own.  If considered apostasy, ultimately eternal judgement or condemnation is by means of Christ.  My God-given common sense would tell me the entire range does not include jumping off a bridge or drinking poisoned kool aid.

 

Because we have freedom of speech, anyone can give their opinions or reverse their opinions.  If there's a point so strongly that we can't reconcile what we believe is true, we have a choice to allow God to direct us to make the right decision whether to stay in place or move on in our endeavors.  Despite any imperfections in word or deed, we are commanded to continue preaching the good news of God's kingdom.

 

(Acts 5:38-40) . . . if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.” 40 . . .

 

The scriptures in 1 Thessalonians read:

 

i*** Bible Citations ***
1 Thess 4:15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.

 

 

it does not sound like an immediate event for I assume many of the apostles and disciples were still alive at that time, and all have since died.  If Paul spoke of any living until Christ descent, it appears the event would have reached down to our time beginning with the first ones fallen asleep in death. 

 

If the Watchtower or society wrote an opinion or something different in this aspect from 1879-2016, I don't think I will have a great issue with it.  The important thing is the resurrection will occur and we will have righteous rulers to benefit all of society for the better.  I do have some things to do, so excuse me if I don't respond right away.